Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Give us one quote from the Bible that says the Bible is the only Authority. Surely such a concept so important to your salvation must be taught in the Bible. It isn’t. Sure, there are quotes saying the Scripture is good for teaching, etc, etc but it does not add "alone" and exclude other forms of teaching (word of mouth discipleship. Apostolic succession). To the contrary, there are many verses in the Bible which speak of the importance of the words, traditions, and spoken teachings versus the written word. To only listen to the written word you lose the rest of the messsage. So please DOC, Gomez, Christian and others. Give the quote from the Bible saying the Bible is the sole (to the exclusion of oral teaching) Authority. In other words, by what Authority do you claim the KJV is THE authority. Expain that to me please. Mike Tennyson Mike, First of all, that "the KJV is THE authority" is not true. The KJV is one translation of many, and since the time it was translated (the 1600’s), more Bible documents have been discovered (such as the Dead Sea Scrolls) shedding more light on the translating of the Bible. Concerning ‘oral teachings’ of God, as you know, something in writing has more legitimacy than something passed down word to mouth. If something was written hundreds of years ago, and we find old documents of it very close to its composition, we can compare later copies to earlier copies and see if many changes were made. But with oral teachings (traditions), we cannot do such. We solely rely upon the oral teachings not being changed. But since we have no way of knowing, how can we be sure that it is God’s teaching and not man’s? That brings us back to the Bible again. Since the Bible has been thoroughly studied and bears out to be God’s word (2 Ti 3:16), we could compare the professed oral teaching with God’s word the Holy Bible, and see if it is in harmony with it. Thus even if oral traditions existed, the Bible is still the main source to go by since it is in writing. Sincerely, James
The Church was 400 years old before there was any "scripture" to consult. Jesus told His Apostles that the Holy Spirit would teach them all things. And "all things" are not contained in scripture. BAM
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Give us one quote from the Bible that says the Bible is the only Authority. Surely such a concept so important to your salvation must be taught in the Bible. It isn’t. Sure, there are quotes saying the Scripture is good for teaching, etc, etc but it does not add "alone" and exclude other forms of teaching (word of mouth discipleship. Apostolic succession). To the contrary, there are many verses in the Bible which speak of the importance of the words, traditions, and spoken teachings versus the written word. To only listen to the written word you lose the rest of the messsage. So please DOC, Gomez, Christian and others. Give the quote from the Bible saying the Bible is the sole (to the exclusion of oral teaching) Authority. In other words, by what Authority do you claim the KJV is THE authority. Expain that to me please. Mike Tennyson
Mike, First of all, that "the KJV is THE authority" is not true. The KJV is one translation of many, and since the time it was translated (the 1600’s), more Bible documents have been discovered (such as the Dead Sea Scrolls) shedding more light on the translating of the Bible. Concerning ‘oral teachings’ of God, as you know, something in writing has more legitimacy than something passed down word to mouth. If something was written hundreds of years ago, and we find old documents of it very close to its composition, we can compare later copies to earlier copies and see if many changes were made. But with oral teachings (traditions), we cannot do such. We solely rely upon the oral teachings not being changed. But since we have no way of knowing, how can we be sure that it is God’s teaching and not man’s? That brings us back to the Bible again. Since the Bible has been thoroughly studied and bears out to be God’s word (2 Ti 3:16), we could compare the professed oral teaching with God’s word the Holy Bible, and see if it is in harmony with it. Thus even if oral traditions existed, the Bible is still the main source to go by since it is in writing. Sincerely, James Want a FREE home Bible study? Have Jehovah’s Witnesses questions? Go to the only authorized source: http://www.watchtower.org
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Top-posting: Why did you post this to the Catholic newsgroup? Middle-posting: Maybe it’s good … it gives us questions to ask. Sharing apologetics is not always asking questions to those who disagree. It can be telling those who agree what those questions might be. God bless, Stephen
End-posting: Of course, I didn’t think about that. Usually these topics are crossposted to various Protestant groups. DH — "Littera gesta docet, quid credas allegoria, Moralis quid agas, quo tendas anagogia."
Response:
I took it to be a challenge topic addressed to the fundamentalists who may visit here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Top-posting: Why did you post this to the Catholic newsgroup? Give us one quote from the Bible that says the Bible is the only Authority. Surely such a concept so important to your salvation must be taught in the Bible. It isn’t. Sure, there are quotes saying the Scripture is good for teaching, etc, etc but it does not add "alone" and exclude other forms of teaching (word of mouth discipleship. Apostolic succession). To the contrary, there are many verses in the Bible which speak of the importance of the words, traditions, and spoken teachings versus the written word. To only listen to the written word you lose the rest of the messsage. So please DOC, Gomez, Christian and others. Give the quote from the Bible saying the Bible is the sole (to the exclusion of oral teaching) Authority. In other words, by what Authority do you claim the KJV is THE authority. Expain that to me please. Mike Tennyson
Response:
Amen TDP. I agree with your assessment. This issue had a lot to do with me converting to Catholicism.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Give us one quote from the Bible that says the Bible is the only Authority. Surely such a concept so important to your salvation must be taught in the Bible. It isn’t. Sure, there are quotes saying the Scripture is good for teaching, etc, etc but it does not add "alone" and exclude other forms of teaching (word of mouth discipleship. Apostolic succession). To the contrary, there are many verses in the Bible which speak of the importance of the words, traditions, and spoken teachings versus the written word. To only listen to the written word you lose the rest of the messsage. So please DOC, Gomez, Christian and others. Give the quote from the Bible saying the Bible is the sole (to the exclusion of oral teaching) Authority. In other words, by what Authority do you claim the KJV is THE authority. Expain that to me please. Mike Tennyson It can’t be explained. Magisterial Teaching, Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition. None of these can exist without the other and that is why sola scriptura is a lie. the Bible alone theory is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches us and shows us that the Church came before the Bible. After all, what books did Jesus write? None! Jesus deliberately chose NOT to write. Instead He chose to establish a Church to teach in His name! The Catholic Church believes that both the Bible and Church are both necessary and one cannot exist without the other. Here are some questions non-Catholics should consider… (1) The Bible was not put under one cover until 397 AD at the Council of Carthage. It took a monk 10 months to hand copy the Bible. Prior to the Bible being put under one cover, who was the authority figure for the early church? Remember, the Bible did not exist as we know it today. There is NO denying the fact that authority was the church–not the Bible. (2) How did the early Christians each own a Bible if the printing press wasn’t developed until the 1500’s? Even after the printing press was developed how many Christian could afford to own a Bible? (3) Why does JESUS state the final authority is the church in Matthew 18:15-17? (4) Where in the Bible does it state that the "Bible" is the only authority for Christians? (5) How did the majority of the people who were uneducated read the Bible prior to 1500 and even to this day? (6) What is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15)? (7) What books of the Bible did Jesus write? (8) Where in the Bible does Jesus command the Apostles to write? (9) How do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is correct? (10) How did the Bible know what books to include under its cover? The only logical conclusion is that the Bible as our only guide is unbiblical!! The Church came first!! Jesus establishes His church when He states the following in Mt. 16:18: And I say also unto thee, That thou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Let us look at several verses that state that Jesus established a teaching Church not a Bible reading Church. (Mt. 28-19) Jesus states – Go ye therefore, and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. (Mk. 16-15) Jesus states – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and PREACH the gospel to every creature. (Mk 16-20) – And they went forth, and PREACHED everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. The apostles did not read from the New Testament, which was yet to be written, instead they taught by "word of mouth" and by tradition, as shown in the following verses: (2 Thes. 2-15) – Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. (2 Tim. 2-2) – And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. The Bible came from the Catholic Church. The New Testament was put under one cover in 397 A.D. this was decided at the Council of Carthage. Prior to this date the different books of the Bible were not under one cover, but they were scattered in different places. So this means, that for over three hundred years the members of the early church were taught be means of tradition because the Bible as we know it did not exist. The Catholic Church thoroughly examined all the books that were in question to be used in the New Testament and it was the Catholic Church that decided what books were inspired and which were not. Catholic monks spent their lives copying scripture over and over again until printing was developed in 1440 AD. So this means that for over 1,400 years the Church taught the members by tradition. Even after the invention of printing, it was far too expensive for every member of a household to own a Bible. John Gutenberg printed the first edition of the Catholic Bible. It wasn’t until 1534, that Luther’s translation of the Bible appeared. Nowhere in the Bible does the Bible say that it is the only source of information available to a Christian. A matter of fact, the Bible states that we must look to the Church for the proper interpretation. After all, the Bible cannot interpret itself, can it? Let look at some verses that show us that private interpretation is frowned upon. (2 Peter 1-20) – Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Peter 3-16) – As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (Acts 8-30) – And Philip ran thither to him, and read him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some men should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. The Holy Spirit, acting through the Catholic Church. The reason why there are so many non-Catholic churches is because there are so many different interpretations of the Bible. The Holy Spirit cannot be responsible for such mass confusion. There is not a "universal" Protestant Church. Some Protestants believe in infant baptism while others do not. The Catholic Church, however is universal, we have one belief system, and one leader to guide us. (Jn 14:26) – Jesus states: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 16:13) – How be it when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth. (Acts 1-8) – But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth. When decisions had to be made in the early Church, a council, along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, was gathered to decide crucial questions that needed to be answered. (Acts 15:1-2) – When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain other of them should go to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this questions (this verse shows that Council did not use scripture to settle this difference) (Acts 16:4) – As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem so the churches were strengthened in the faith and they increased in numbers daily. The Bible is very important to the Catholic faith. The Catholic Mass is saturated with scripture. Catholics believe that the Bible is very necessary along with the teachings of the church-one cannot exist without the other.
Response:
Top-posting: Why did you post this to the Catholic newsgroup?
Middle-posting: Maybe it’s good … it gives us questions to ask. Sharing apologetics is not always asking questions to those who disagree. It can be telling those who agree what those questions might be. God bless, Stephen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Give us one quote from the Bible that says the Bible is the only Authority. Surely such a concept so important to your salvation must be taught in the Bible. It isn’t. Sure, there are quotes saying the Scripture is good for teaching, etc, etc but it does not add "alone" and exclude other forms of teaching (word of mouth discipleship. Apostolic succession). To the contrary, there are many verses in the Bible which speak of the importance of the words, traditions, and spoken teachings versus the written word. To only listen to the written word you lose the rest of the messsage. So please DOC, Gomez, Christian and others. Give the quote from the Bible saying the Bible is the sole (to the exclusion of oral teaching) Authority. In other words, by what Authority do you claim the KJV is THE authority. Expain that to me please. Mike Tennyson — "Littera gesta docet, quid credas allegoria, Moralis quid agas, quo tendas anagogia."
Response:
Give us one quote from the Bible that says the Bible is the only Authority. Surely such a concept so important to your salvation must be taught in the Bible. It isn’t. Sure, there are quotes saying the Scripture is good for teaching, etc, etc but it does not add "alone" and exclude other forms of teaching (word of mouth discipleship. Apostolic succession). To the contrary, there are many verses in the Bible which speak of the importance of the words, traditions, and spoken teachings versus the written word. To only listen to the written word you lose the rest of the messsage. So please DOC, Gomez, Christian and others. Give the quote from the Bible saying the Bible is the sole (to the exclusion of oral teaching) Authority. In other words, by what Authority do you claim the KJV is THE authority. Expain that to me please. Mike Tennyson
It can’t be explained. Magisterial Teaching, Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition. None of these can exist without the other and that is why sola scriptura is a lie. the Bible alone theory is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches us and shows us that the Church came before the Bible. After all, what books did Jesus write? None! Jesus deliberately chose NOT to write. Instead He chose to establish a Church to teach in His name! The Catholic Church believes that both the Bible and Church are both necessary and one cannot exist without the other. Here are some questions non-Catholics should consider… (1) The Bible was not put under one cover until 397 AD at the Council of Carthage. It took a monk 10 months to hand copy the Bible. Prior to the Bible being put under one cover, who was the authority figure for the early church? Remember, the Bible did not exist as we know it today. There is NO denying the fact that authority was the church–not the Bible. (2) How did the early Christians each own a Bible if the printing press wasn’t developed until the 1500’s? Even after the printing press was developed how many Christian could afford to own a Bible? (3) Why does JESUS state the final authority is the church in Matthew 18:15-17? (4) Where in the Bible does it state that the "Bible" is the only authority for Christians? (5) How did the majority of the people who were uneducated read the Bible prior to 1500 and even to this day? (6) What is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15)? (7) What books of the Bible did Jesus write? (8) Where in the Bible does Jesus command the Apostles to write? (9) How do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is correct? (10) How did the Bible know what books to include under its cover? The only logical conclusion is that the Bible as our only guide is unbiblical!! The Church came first!! Jesus establishes His church when He states the following in Mt. 16:18: And I say also unto thee, That thou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Let us look at several verses that state that Jesus established a teaching Church not a Bible reading Church. (Mt. 28-19) Jesus states – Go ye therefore, and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. (Mk. 16-15) Jesus states – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and PREACH the gospel to every creature. (Mk 16-20) – And they went forth, and PREACHED everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. The apostles did not read from the New Testament, which was yet to be written, instead they taught by "word of mouth" and by tradition, as shown in the following verses: (2 Thes. 2-15) – Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. (2 Tim. 2-2) – And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. The Bible came from the Catholic Church. The New Testament was put under one cover in 397 A.D. this was decided at the Council of Carthage. Prior to this date the different books of the Bible were not under one cover, but they were scattered in different places. So this means, that for over three hundred years the members of the early church were taught be means of tradition because the Bible as we know it did not exist. The Catholic Church thoroughly examined all the books that were in question to be used in the New Testament and it was the Catholic Church that decided what books were inspired and which were not. Catholic monks spent their lives copying scripture over and over again until printing was developed in 1440 AD. So this means that for over 1,400 years the Church taught the members by tradition. Even after the invention of printing, it was far too expensive for every member of a household to own a Bible. John Gutenberg printed the first edition of the Catholic Bible. It wasn’t until 1534, that Luther’s translation of the Bible appeared. Nowhere in the Bible does the Bible say that it is the only source of information available to a Christian. A matter of fact, the Bible states that we must look to the Church for the proper interpretation. After all, the Bible cannot interpret itself, can it? Let look at some verses that show us that private interpretation is frowned upon. (2 Peter 1-20) – Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Peter 3-16) – As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (Acts 8-30) – And Philip ran thither to him, and read him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some men should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. The Holy Spirit, acting through the Catholic Church. The reason why there are so many non-Catholic churches is because there are so many different interpretations of the Bible. The Holy Spirit cannot be responsible for such mass confusion. There is not a "universal" Protestant Church. Some Protestants believe in infant baptism while others do not. The Catholic Church, however is universal, we have one belief system, and one leader to guide us. (Jn 14:26) – Jesus states: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 16:13) – How be it when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth. (Acts 1-8) – But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth. When decisions had to be made in the early Church, a council, along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, was gathered to decide crucial questions that needed to be answered. (Acts 15:1-2) – When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain other of them should go to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this questions (this verse shows that Council did not use scripture to settle this difference) (Acts 16:4) – As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem so the churches were strengthened in the faith and they increased in numbers daily. The Bible is very important to the Catholic faith. The Catholic Mass is saturated with scripture. Catholics believe that the Bible is very necessary along with the teachings of the church-one cannot exist without the other. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Top-posting: Why did you post this to the Catholic newsgroup? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Give us one quote from the Bible that says the Bible is the only Authority. Surely such a concept so important to your salvation must be taught in the Bible. It isn’t. Sure, there are quotes saying the Scripture is good for teaching, etc, etc but it does not add "alone" and exclude other forms of teaching (word of mouth discipleship. Apostolic succession). To the contrary, there are many verses in the Bible which speak of the importance of the words, traditions, and spoken teachings versus the written word. To only listen to the written word you lose the rest of the messsage. So please DOC, Gomez, Christian and others. Give the quote from the Bible saying the Bible is the sole (to the exclusion of oral teaching) Authority. In other words, by what Authority do you claim the KJV is THE authority. Expain that to me please. Mike Tennyson
– "Littera gesta docet, quid credas allegoria, Moralis quid agas, quo tendas anagogia."
Response:
Give us one quote from the Bible that says the Bible is the only Authority. Surely such a concept so important to your salvation must be taught in the Bible. It isn’t. Sure, there are quotes saying the Scripture is good for teaching, etc, etc but it does not add "alone" and exclude other forms of teaching (word of mouth discipleship. Apostolic succession). To the contrary, there are many verses in the Bible which speak of the importance of the words, traditions, and spoken teachings versus the written word. To only listen to the written word you lose the rest of the messsage. So please DOC, Gomez, Christian and others. Give the quote from the Bible saying the Bible is the sole (to the exclusion of oral teaching) Authority. In other words, by what Authority do you claim the KJV is THE authority. Expain that to me please. Mike Tennyson
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