Question:
I haven’t killfiled you because you are not vicious or rude. However, I have come to the conclusion that I agree with your contention that civil discussion of this issue has become impossible. Why? Because it is personal. We who are gay are fighting for our lives (physical and spiritual) and our place in society and the church, and it’s not just some kind of abstract, theological or political issue.
Reminds me of the story of the pig and the chicken who decided to start a resturaunt. "Let’s serve ham and eggs," said the chicken. "Um, no, I don’t think that’s a good idea," said the pig. "Why not?" "Because you’re involved, but *I’m* committed." Hugh
Response:
Groucho Marx told the story of the impressario and the hunchback walking down a sidewalk, and happening past a synagogue. The impressario remarks "I used to be a Jew." The hunchback retorts "Yeah, and I used to be a hunchback." — From all sedicion and pryvie conspiracie, from the tyrannye of the Bysshop of Rome, and al hys detestable enormities, from al false doctryne and heresy, from hardnes of hearte, and contempte of thy worde and commaundement. Good lord, deliver us. from the Litany, 1549 BCP
Response:
I suppose some (most? all?) of our GLBT members will be offended, though, since the author is an ex-gay. Homosexual sophists tend to deal with ex-gays by claiming that they were bisexual all along, and thus never homosexual to begin with. Of course, some of them even carry these word games to the point of denying that there were any homosexuals in ancient times!!
The concept of "a homosexual" did not exist in ancient times. The ancients understood that any man is capable of almost any behavior under the right circumstances. See Foucault’s _History of Sexuality_, volume 1, for more on this topic. — Matthew Weber Curatorial Assistant Music Library University of California, Berkeley Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing. The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _The Book of Psalms_ 145:16
Response:
The concept of "a homosexual" did not exist in ancient times. The ancients understood that any man is capable of almost any behavior under the right circumstances. See Foucault’s _History of Sexuality_, volume 1, for more on this topic.
Which is exactly what should happen now! We should have no concept of "a homosexual!" The ancients, as I understood it, differentiated between productive behavior, i.e., male/female partnerships, and non-productive behavior, i.e., same sex partnerships. I am not familiar with Foucault’s History, but I suspect that it bears out what I assume common knowledge, that societal response to same sex sexual behavior ran the gamut from death, as among the Germans (see Tacitus) and Hebrews, to taxation, as in Sparta and Rome. Even that Amazons did not engage in this behavior, IIRC the myth, although they did kill their mates and chop off (or burn) their breasts. Only Lesbos (by legend) was an exception. Perhaps we should do the same today: our response to those who engage in same sex sexual practices should either be death or taxation, or something in between. CC (For those without a sense of fun, this is a joke. A joke with a point perhaps, but still a joke.)
Response:
snb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And more, and more. So you see, I am trying to listen, and get a complete picture. If you have any other sources, I’ll try to find the time to check them, as well (but as you can see, my reading list is already miles long!) My "agenda" in posting the link was to try to present a less heated picture of the reasoning on the traditional viewpoint, since all the trolls and dive-bombers around here recently (brought in by the cross-posting – thank you Jim McCoy) have changed the tone of the discussion to one I find totally unacceptable. If any of us who "live" here (and I do "live" here, have for years, although I rarely poke my head up) says anything less than 100% supportive of the actions of GC74, we are immediately labeled hate-filled, homophobic, rejectionistas, etc. We don’t like that any better than you like the garbage that our recent trolls have been throwing at you. And we don’t deserve it any more than you do. Somehow, we must discuss the issue. But discussing it does not mean we have to agree on every point, and disagreement does not equal hate or homophobia. Of course, you may have kf’d me already, since I do disagree with you, so I likely wasted my time on this post. But maybe it’ll help someone else….. In His Love, Cheryl
I haven’t killfiled you because you are not vicious or rude. However, I have come to the conclusion that I agree with your contention that civil discussion of this issue has become impossible. Why? Because it is personal. We who are gay are fighting for our lives (physical and spiritual) and our place in society and the church, and it’s not just some kind of abstract, theological or political issue. I saw your post as an attack because it both presented an anti-gay position _and_ tried to forestall criticism by labeling any opposition as unreasonable. If you had given us the above citations as well I wouldn’t have reacted as I did. Finally, "listening" has been revealed as pointless because we have been judged and condemned in advance. "Homosexual practice is incompatable with Scripture," said the Poo-Bahs at Lambeth while claiming to want to listen to us. The only alternative gay people have is the closet, a living death. If you want to listen to us, grapple with that. L – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Well, lest you think I’ve been reading only one side of the story – here’s some more of the places I’ve been spending time lately…. Gay History and Literature Essays by Rictor Norton http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/gayhist.htm I started at (got there through a Google search, I think) "Exclusive Homosexuality", a section of his work "A Critique of Social Constructionism and Postmodern Queer Theory" http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/social11.htm Also, although I really don’t like some of their advertising links, I’ve found some interesting material at ReligiousTolerance.org – Homosexuality and Bisexuality http://www.religioustolerance.org/homosexu.htm This one (and its links) gives some insight into sexual activity and orientation in the ancient world, and was the source of my post a couple of weeks ago, asking if anyone had read Plato’s Symposium: http://members.aol.com/matrixwerx/glbthistory/plato.htm And Ninure Saunders posted an interesting essay entitled "Our Story, Too – Lesbians and Gay Men in the Bible" by a Rev. Nancy Wilson of the MCC, in alt.religion.gay-les-bi-tran on 4/20/2001. And more, and more. So you see, I am trying to listen, and get a complete picture. If you have any other sources, I’ll try to find the time to check them, as well (but as you can see, my reading list is already miles long!) My "agenda" in posting the link was to try to present a less heated picture of the reasoning on the traditional viewpoint, since all the trolls and dive-bombers around here recently (brought in by the cross-posting – thank you Jim McCoy) have changed the tone of the discussion to one I find totally unacceptable. If any of us who "live" here (and I do "live" here, have for years, although I rarely poke my head up) says anything less than 100% supportive of the actions of GC74, we are immediately labeled hate-filled, homophobic, rejectionistas, etc. We don’t like that any better than you like the garbage that our recent trolls have been throwing at you. And we don’t deserve it any more than you do. Somehow, we must discuss the issue. But discussing it does not mean we have to agree on every point, and disagreement does not equal hate or homophobia. Of course, you may have kf’d me already, since I do disagree with you, so I likely wasted my time on this post. But maybe it’ll help someone else….. In His Love, Cheryl
Response:
Homosexual sophists tend to deal with ex-gays by claiming that they were bisexual all along, and thus never homosexual to begin with. Of course, some of them even carry these word games to the point of denying that there were any homosexuals in ancient times!!
"Gay" is a remarkably plastic concept. Like "love." If we are sexually attracted to a person of the same sex, does that make us gay? I suspect that many and perhaps most of us at one time or another experienced sexual arousal by a person of the same sex. Do acts of sodomy make one gay? What about a porn actor or prostitute that actually feels a great distaste for same-sex acts and revulsion for same gender relationships? My mother, educated during the 1940s and having advanced degrees, feels strongly that the condition is caused by growing up in a family with a weak father and a strong mother. She is a very strong woman, and it cost her dearly to follow the lead of the man she married, but both were faithful to each other until their death. I came of age in the 1960s, when being gay was purely a matter of choice. When I wanted to indulge my mean side, I would tell my gay friends that they didn’t have a choice, that the condition of hereditory (we didn’t discuss matters in terms of genes on those days.) This was guaranteed to begin furious argument. In the 1970s, opinion was that one was what he did. If you had gay sex, you were gay, and if you didn’t, you weren’t. The book "And the Band Played On" describes this very well. Today, we speak of "sexual orientation" that is "inborn" and that can’t be changed, no matter what you do. You are born gay or you are born straight. CH is absolutely right that a poster who does not take the trouble to clarify what he means by gay is intellectually dishonest. (Am I putting this too strongly?) CC
Response:
I suppose some (most? all?) of our GLBT members will be offended, though, since the author is an ex-gay.
Homosexual sophists tend to deal with ex-gays by claiming that they were bisexual all along, and thus never homosexual to begin with. Of course, some of them even carry these word games to the point of denying that there were any homosexuals in ancient times!! Charles Hohenstein "If there were any word of God beside the Scripture, we could never be certain of God’s Word; and if we be uncertain of God’s Word, the devil might bring in among us a new word, a new doctrine, a new faith, a new church, a new god, yea himself to be a god. If the Church and the Christian faith did not stay itself upon the Word of God certain, as upon a sure and strong foundation, no man could know whether he had a right faith, and whether he were in the true Church of Christ, or in the synagogue of Satan."– Archbishop Thomas Cranmer
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – with some commentary and responses on our current issues. Although I haven’t read the entire site, the parts and comments I did read seemed not to be "inflamed." I suppose some (most? all?) of our GLBT members will be offended, though, since the author is an ex-gay. I do apologize for that possible offense. However, it seems to be totally impossible to discuss, or even acknowledge the existence of, different points of view re current events, without offending someone <sigh, so I’m posting it anyway. Mea culpa…. This is disingenuous, as best. You call our attention to a blog whose author "just happens" to be an "ex-gay" and then apologize for it? Your agenda is quite transparent.
Hmm – I find these comments interesting – I did visit the mentioned blog and there was information for thought. Also some of the links lead to other sites that also were interesting – Did you actually read the material at this site and then comment or did you dismiss it out of hand? Cheryl had a good point that having a rational discussion seems to be impossible – her post was not inflammatory but rather muted . . . she is accused of having an "agenda"- A question I would like to ask is why it is Ok to label Christians (who believe that a gay lifestyle is morally wrong) as homophobes or intolerant bigots? Do Christians have the right to their beliefs? Where is the tolerance from the GLBT in this? I am inclined to believe that BOTH sides have little tolerance and are WRONG in this respect. btw: there’s no such thing as an ex-gay. One can, of course, live a life of denial in the closet to please fundamentalist straights, but the reality is always there. I can’t remember just how many stories I’ve heard about supposedly "ex-gay" men who are having sex with other men.
Hmm – A rather broad statement based on what? Perhaps the question that needs to be asked is what makes a person gay? Is it feelings of attraction for one of the same sex or is it something else? If it is only based on feelings then if a person has a moment of rage where they feel like killing someone does that make them a closet killer living a life of denial if they do not act on their feelings? Does having "feelings" or "being tempted"make one a sinner? What reality are you referring to? Sincerely, BillyBob
Response:
with some commentary and responses on our current issues. Although I haven’t read the entire site, the parts and comments I did read seemed not to be "inflamed." I suppose some (most? all?) of our GLBT members will be offended, though, since the author is an ex-gay. I do apologize for that possible offense. However, it seems to be totally impossible to discuss, or even acknowledge the existence of, different points of view re current events, without offending someone <sigh, so I’m posting it anyway. Mea culpa…. In His Love, Cheryl ~~~~~~~ (article) The Charitable Anathema http://davidmorrison.typepad.com/sed_contra/2003/11/the_charitable_.html (website ) SED CONTRA – Notes from a life lived Beyond Gay David Morrison is the author of this web log and the book Beyond Gay, which Our Sunday Visitor press published in 1999 and which is still in print.
Response:
with some commentary and responses on our current issues. Although I
haven’t read the entire site, the parts and comments I did read seemed not to be "inflamed." I suppose some (most? all?) of our GLBT members will be offended, though,
since the author is an ex-gay. I do apologize for that possible offense. However, it seems to be totally impossible to discuss, or even acknowledge the existence of, different points of view re current events, without offending someone <sigh, so I’m posting it anyway. Mea culpa…. This is disingenuous, as best. You call our attention to a blog whose author "just happens" to be an "ex-gay" and then apologize for it? Your agenda is quite transparent. btw: there’s no such thing as an ex-gay. One can, of course, live a life of denial in the closet to please fundamentalist straights, but the reality is always there. I can’t remember just how many stories I’ve heard about supposedly "ex-gay" men who are having sex with other men. A joke. In His Love, Cheryl ~~~~~~~ (article) The Charitable Anathema http://davidmorrison.typepad.com/sed_contra/2003/11/the_charitable_.html (website ) SED CONTRA – Notes from a life lived Beyond Gay David Morrison is the author of this web log and the book Beyond Gay,
which Our Sunday Visitor press published in 1999 and which is still in print. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
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