Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If he repents, … Forgive him. But what if he continues to sin against you, and others too? Peter came up and said to Jesus, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven time?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven." Matt 18:21-22 None of us will ever go a day in our lives without sinning, but God readily forgives us. Do the same.
Excellent! Should I tell him I have forgiven him? Should I wait for him to repent? Should I keep my mouth shut, blithely forgiving my brother, and never telling him he’s sinning? Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "I saw a more recent copy of a Prayer Book Commentary in our Church library, but it had little in the way of scriptural references. Are there many Commentaries of this type?" Dan, I have "The Oxford American Prayer Book Commentary" by Massey Shepherd, Copyright 1950. I was on a waiting list one year for this book at the Anglican Bibliopole. It’s a good resource for understanding the 1928 BCP. I also have "Commentary on the American Prayer Book" by Marion J. Hatchett, 1979. This book is about the 1979 BCP and is still in print. There seem to be more references to Scripture in the 1950 text. I will be glad to research anything for you. Mark Mark L. Friesland, Nashville, Tennessee "And being but one, Wisdom can do all things: and remaining in herself, she maketh all things new: and in all ages entering into holy souls, she maketh them friends of God, and prophets." Wisdom 7:27 KJV
I was wondering if your Commentary has scripture references in the Catechism? Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager
Response:
Should I tell him I have forgiven him?
It depends on the situation. Are you telling him to be a witness for Christ or to show him what a great person you are? In the situation is the person helped or hurt by the conversation? Some common sense is needed here, but always act out of love. Should I wait for him to repent?
In my opinion, it’s not necessary. Christ forgave his executioners from the cross without them repenting. The Holy Spirit may guide the person to repent. But I believe our obligation to forgive is no dependent on someone’s willingness to repent. Should I keep my mouth shut, blithely forgiving my brother, and never telling him he’s sinning?
Again, some common sense is needed. If someone is stealing from you, or lying to you, or doing something else that is hurting you or someone close to you, by all means you should confront them. For instance, if my daughter had a boyfriend that was verbally or physically abusive to her, you can be sure we’d be having a confrontation! God does not call us to be doormats! But if you perceive that someone is "sinning" by their lifestyle, beliefs, or behavior — for example if someone drinks too much or "sleeps around" — you need to be very careful! Certainly there are situations where something should be said. I’ve had to tell people in my parish that I was concerned for them and why. But I use extreme caution. I am no less a sinner than they are. I am no more righteous than they are. I am no more beloved of God than they are. If I choose to intervene it is usually in an exteme situation where someone is putting themselves or others in danger (not just physical danger, but danger of messing up important parts of their life). The vast majority of the time I stay silent, pray for them, trust in God and try not to judge. And the vast majority of the time things work out.
Response:
<<snipped, but respectfully The vast majority of the time I stay silent, pray for them, trust in God and try not to judge. And the vast majority of the time things work out.
Thank you for your advice, David. Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager
Response:
If he repents, … Forgive him.
But what if he continues to sin against you, and others too? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you got the message. Since all of us sin, we all need Christ’s redemption. It’s not up to any of us to judge our brothers and sisters, because in the eyes of God we’re no better or worse than anyone else. Lessons like this make me all the more grateful for God’s grace. You’re going to think I’m an inveterate judger, but if your brother sins against you, what are you supposed to do? Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager
Response:
If he repents, … Forgive him. But what if he continues to sin against you, and others too?
Peter came up and said to Jesus, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven time?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven." Matt 18:21-22 None of us will ever go a day in our lives without sinning, but God readily forgives us. Do the same.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you got the message. Since all of us sin, we all need Christ’s redemption. It’s not up to any of us to judge our brothers and sisters, because in the eyes of God we’re no better or worse than anyone else. Lessons like this make me all the more grateful for God’s grace. You’re going to think I’m an inveterate judger, but if your brother sins against you, what are you supposed to do? Dan, I thought about the judgement post all afternoon. Checking my bible quotes book led me to Luke 17 (which by another of those little Godincidences was the very chapter I was going to read today anyway — currently reading Luke/Acts consequetively). 17:3 "Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him." The Apostles, bless ‘em don’t ask what to do about an unrepentant sinner and the topic changes. I don’t know. "Shake the dust off of your sandals?" Good point, Bill. I know that I feel really bad when someone offends the Body of Christ. Now I realize that I am not the final authority on what an offense to the Body of Christ is, but some things seem so incredibly obvious, I can’t believe there’s any controversy about them at all. As it pertains to public forums, like this newgroup, even idle speculation, devoid of intended malice, becomes permanent public record, and in my mind, demands a response from the faithful. How much more are those which are dripping with malice (however couched in intellectualism). What do you think?
Well, in the big picture, James 4:14 ..For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. James may be my favorite epistle because the goodness of the man just leaps out at me, and because he hammers one of my sins that is so obvious even I am aware of it, my big mouth. Just shut up and walk the talk, Bill. (Promptly ignoring that divinely inspired advice, he continued…) I’m sure the whole Body of Christ is doing what Jesus wants. I don’t have the foggiest idea ~what~ it is he wants to be happening that would cause us to be at this point, but that’s because I can’t see the big picture. Just a glimpse of the golden light from above. We get such a tiny slice of eternity to spend on this earth. (Thank God!) One of the things I’ve taken with me since my conversion is this absolutely unshakeable faith that everything will be alright. The problem with the newsgroup is that it’s easy to think we are the whole church. We are like the newsmedia in a way. In the last few years crime is down something like 3%. News reporting of crime in the same period is up 350%. It’s easy to get overwhelmed by a problem that isn’t really as widespread as we think. What is that passage where Jesus is overwhelmed by the crowds and says something like, "there are too many of you." CS Lewis once said he never felt so far from God as when he had just successfully defended him. I dropped out of a.a. threads after a week or so. Then thought I was going to lose the will to live while putting up crazy Uncle Jack’s theses, one by one, day after monotonous day…it got me down. I found myself getting irritable. Over what? Heresies. So what. They’ve been here since day 1 and will be here on the last day. I was getting too caught up in the moment and found myself feeling like I was being backed into a corner. He’s wrong and people who follow him are mistaken, BUT they are brothers trying to be Christian in a thoroughly evil society. For me it always comes down to love God and your neighbor. Try to point out the glaring errors and move on. Don’t drive yourself too hard. Make sure you give yourself plenty of positive input (bible, meditations, Xtian rock music) every day. You’ve already done much more in the groups, especially the a.a. crossposts, than I could stand. We have a "popcorn theology" meeting once a month. Watch some movie and then gather to discuss it. I go for the express reason of keeping my mouth shut. The people in my parish are, well there’s just no other word for it, crazy. It’s so obvious that the point in "Meet Joe Black" is mmppphhhh, mmmphhhh (me, sticking a gag in my mouth). It’s good penance… :^) God’s peace, bill+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager
Response:
What you are getting is pearls before swine.
SNOT! So there! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you got the message. Since all of us sin, we all need Christ’s redemption. It’s not up to any of us to judge our brothers and sisters, because in the eyes of God we’re no better or worse than anyone else. Lessons like this make me all the more grateful for God’s grace. You’re going to think I’m an inveterate judger, but if your brother sins against you, what are you supposed to do? Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager Follow your own teachings and turn the other cheek! But please do not do it whilst cross posting your pathetic posturing to alt.atheism. It is like casting swine before pearls! The impression you make is that of smug, self-satisfied hypocrites!! Please go away. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
I think you got the message. Since all of us sin, we all need Christ’s redemption. It’s not up to any of us to judge our brothers and sisters, because in the eyes of God we’re no better or worse than anyone else. Lessons like this make me all the more grateful for God’s grace. You’re going to think I’m an inveterate judger, but if your brother sins against you, what are you supposed to do?
Dan, I thought about the judgement post all afternoon. Checking my bible quotes book led me to Luke 17 (which by another of those little Godincidences was the very chapter I was going to read today anyway — currently reading Luke/Acts consequetively). 17:3 "Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him." The Apostles, bless ‘em don’t ask what to do about an unrepentant sinner and the topic changes. I don’t know. "Shake the dust off of your sandals?" God’s peace, bill+
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you got the message. Since all of us sin, we all need Christ’s redemption. It’s not up to any of us to judge our brothers and sisters, because in the eyes of God we’re no better or worse than anyone else. Lessons like this make me all the more grateful for God’s grace. You’re going to think I’m an inveterate judger, but if your brother sins against you, what are you supposed to do? Dan, I thought about the judgement post all afternoon. Checking my bible quotes book led me to Luke 17 (which by another of those little Godincidences was the very chapter I was going to read today anyway — currently reading Luke/Acts consequetively). 17:3 "Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him." The Apostles, bless ‘em don’t ask what to do about an unrepentant sinner and the topic changes. I don’t know. "Shake the dust off of your sandals?"
Good point, Bill. I know that I feel really bad when someone offends the Body of Christ. Now I realize that I am not the final authority on what an offense to the Body of Christ is, but some things seem so incredibly obvious, I can’t believe there’s any controversy about them at all. As it pertains to public forums, like this newgroup, even idle speculation, devoid of intended malice, becomes permanent public record, and in my mind, demands a response from the faithful. How much more are those which are dripping with malice (however couched in intellectualism). What do you think? Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager
Response:
Forgive him.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you got the message. Since all of us sin, we all need Christ’s redemption. It’s not up to any of us to judge our brothers and sisters, because in the eyes of God we’re no better or worse than anyone else. Lessons like this make me all the more grateful for God’s grace. You’re going to think I’m an inveterate judger, but if your brother sins against you, what are you supposed to do? Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Part of today’s epistle is: James 2:8-13 (NRSV) 8 You do well if you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For the one who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery but if you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be without mercy to anyone who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. Today, God spoke to me through this reading. He admonished me not to be judgemental, without mercy. For I am as guilty as anyone. Did anyone else get have anything to share? Random thoughts: James seems to me to be very practical advice. Taken with verses 1-7 I think it would be simply rich vs. poor. It could include God given riches such as intelligence and talent, I think. He goes on in Chapter 3 to warn about teachers being held to stricter judgements. 2:13 seems to tie in to "Forgive us our trespasses AS we forgive those who trespass against us." We pass judgement on ourselves when we pass judgement on others. But mercy seems the main point. My conversion was followed by a sudden knowledge of just exactly how loathsome I must be to God on my best day.
What a sick god you worship. Therapy might help you, although many shrinks believe that those whose toxic religions have denied them self-esteem are the most difficult to help. . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -That was followed immediately by the remembrance of His Love and Mercy in the room with me. The quote "Thank God life isn’t fair. I don’t want fairness, I want mercy." took on a whole new meaning for me. Digression: I saw a chart of the geneology of the prayer book. It cited M.H. Shepherd, Jr., "The Oxford American Prayer Book Commentary", 1950. The copyright date makes it likely to: 1.be hard to find 2.maybe have scripture xrefs you’re looking for. God’s peace, bill+ Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Part of today’s epistle is: James 2:8-13 (NRSV) 8 You do well if you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For the one who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery but if you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be without mercy to anyone who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. Today, God spoke to me through this reading. He admonished me not to be judgemental, without mercy. For I am as guilty as anyone. Did anyone else get have anything to share? Random thoughts: James seems to me to be very practical advice. Taken with verses 1-7 I think it would be simply rich vs. poor. It could include God given riches such as intelligence and talent, I think. He goes on in Chapter 3 to warn about teachers being held to stricter judgements. 2:13 seems to tie in to "Forgive us our trespasses AS we forgive those who trespass against us." We pass judgement on ourselves when we pass judgement on others. But mercy seems the main point. My conversion was followed by a sudden knowledge of just exactly how loathsome I must be to God on my best day. That was followed immediately by the remembrance of His Love and Mercy in the room with me. The quote "Thank God life isn’t fair. I don’t want fairness, I want mercy." took on a whole new meaning for me. Digression: I saw a chart of the geneology of the prayer book. It cited M.H. Shepherd, Jr., "The Oxford American Prayer Book Commentary", 1950. The copyright date makes it likely to: 1.be hard to find 2.maybe have scripture xrefs you’re looking for. I saw a more recent copy of a Prayer Book Commentary in our Church library, but it had little in the way of scriptural references. Are there many Commentaries of this type?
Don’t know. I thought the date might be important in that it might be "traditional" in the sense that it would have the boring old information you want. Not likely to be a best seller nowdays. You might ask where the "old junk" is stored in your church. I stumbled across a couple of dozen books with copyrights from 1913-1950’s (including a 1952 edition of "The Early Christian Fathers" the writings from St. Clement to St. Athanasius) in the store room with the vacuum cleaner, etc. b+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager
Response:
Hi Dan, I just joined the newsgroup today (8.31.99). In response to your query about the reading from James, I thought it was interesting that it was paired with a lesson from 2 Chronicles 6 in the lectionary: "Likewise when foreigners, who are not of your people Israel, come from a distant land because of your great name, and your mighty hand, and your outstrecthed arm, when they come and pray towards this house, may you hear from heaven your dwelling place, and do whatever the foreigners ask of you, in order that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you." To me these two readings were about inclusivity. I saw the two readings as a personal invitation for me to be more open-minded, more intentional about inclusivity, and more sensitive and gentle. Even the best of us seem to have our prejudices and preconceptions. These two lections resonate well with a book by a Roman Catholic nun that I am reading:"Friends of God and Prophets: A Feminist Theological Reading of the Communion of Saints. Peace be with you and keep in touch! Mark Mark L. Friesland, Nashville, Tennessee "And being but one, Wisdom can do all things: and remaining in herself, she maketh all things new: and in all ages entering into holy souls, she maketh them friends of God, and prophets." Wisdom 7:27 KJV
Response:
"I saw a more recent copy of a Prayer Book Commentary in our Church library, but it had little in the way of scriptural references. Are there many Commentaries of this type?" Dan, I have "The Oxford American Prayer Book Commentary" by Massey Shepherd, Copyright 1950. I was on a waiting list one year for this book at the Anglican Bibliopole. It’s a good resource for understanding the 1928 BCP. I also have "Commentary on the American Prayer Book" by Marion J. Hatchett, 1979. This book is about the 1979 BCP and is still in print. There seem to be more references to Scripture in the 1950 text. I will be glad to research anything for you. Mark Mark L. Friesland, Nashville, Tennessee "And being but one, Wisdom can do all things: and remaining in herself, she maketh all things new: and in all ages entering into holy souls, she maketh them friends of God, and prophets." Wisdom 7:27 KJV
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you got the message. Since all of us sin, we all need Christ’s redemption. It’s not up to any of us to judge our brothers and sisters, because in the eyes of God we’re no better or worse than anyone else. Lessons like this make me all the more grateful for God’s grace. You’re going to think I’m an inveterate judger, but if your brother sins against you, what are you supposed to do? Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager
Follow your own teachings and turn the other cheek! But please do not do it whilst cross posting your pathetic posturing to alt.atheism. It is like casting swine before pearls! The impression you make is that of smug, self-satisfied hypocrites!! Please go away. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
What you are getting is pearls before swine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you got the message. Since all of us sin, we all need Christ’s redemption. It’s not up to any of us to judge our brothers and sisters, because in the eyes of God we’re no better or worse than anyone else. Lessons like this make me all the more grateful for God’s grace. You’re going to think I’m an inveterate judger, but if your brother sins against you, what are you supposed to do? Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager Follow your own teachings and turn the other cheek! But please do not do it whilst cross posting your pathetic posturing to alt.atheism. It is like casting swine before pearls! The impression you make is that of smug, self-satisfied hypocrites!! Please go away. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Part of today’s epistle is: James 2:8-13 (NRSV) 8 You do well if you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For the one who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery but if you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be without mercy to anyone who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. Today, God spoke to me through this reading. He admonished me not to be judgemental, without mercy. For I am as guilty as anyone. Did anyone else get have anything to share?
Random thoughts: James seems to me to be very practical advice. Taken with verses 1-7 I think it would be simply rich vs. poor. It could include God given riches such as intelligence and talent, I think. He goes on in Chapter 3 to warn about teachers being held to stricter judgements. 2:13 seems to tie in to "Forgive us our trespasses AS we forgive those who trespass against us." We pass judgement on ourselves when we pass judgement on others. But mercy seems the main point. My conversion was followed by a sudden knowledge of just exactly how loathsome I must be to God on my best day. That was followed immediately by the remembrance of His Love and Mercy in the room with me. The quote "Thank God life isn’t fair. I don’t want fairness, I want mercy." took on a whole new meaning for me. Digression: I saw a chart of the geneology of the prayer book. It cited M.H. Shepherd, Jr., "The Oxford American Prayer Book Commentary", 1950. The copyright date makes it likely to: 1.be hard to find 2.maybe have scripture xrefs you’re looking for. God’s peace, bill+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager
Response:
I think you got the message. Since all of us sin, we all need Christ’s redemption. It’s not up to any of us to judge our brothers and sisters, because in the eyes of God we’re no better or worse than anyone else. Lessons like this make me all the more grateful for God’s grace.
You’re going to think I’m an inveterate judger, but if your brother sins against you, what are you supposed to do? Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Part of today’s epistle is: James 2:8-13 (NRSV) 8 You do well if you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For the one who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery but if you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be without mercy to anyone who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. Today, God spoke to me through this reading. He admonished me not to be judgemental, without mercy. For I am as guilty as anyone. Did anyone else get have anything to share? Random thoughts: James seems to me to be very practical advice. Taken with verses 1-7 I think it would be simply rich vs. poor. It could include God given riches such as intelligence and talent, I think. He goes on in Chapter 3 to warn about teachers being held to stricter judgements. 2:13 seems to tie in to "Forgive us our trespasses AS we forgive those who trespass against us." We pass judgement on ourselves when we pass judgement on others. But mercy seems the main point. My conversion was followed by a sudden knowledge of just exactly how loathsome I must be to God on my best day. That was followed immediately by the remembrance of His Love and Mercy in the room with me. The quote "Thank God life isn’t fair. I don’t want fairness, I want mercy." took on a whole new meaning for me. Digression: I saw a chart of the geneology of the prayer book. It cited M.H. Shepherd, Jr., "The Oxford American Prayer Book Commentary", 1950. The copyright date makes it likely to: 1.be hard to find 2.maybe have scripture xrefs you’re looking for.
I saw a more recent copy of a Prayer Book Commentary in our Church library, but it had little in the way of scriptural references. Are there many Commentaries of this type? Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager
Response:
I think you got the message. Since all of us sin, we all need Christ’s redemption. It’s not up to any of us to judge our brothers and sisters, because in the eyes of God we’re no better or worse than anyone else. Lessons like this make me all the more grateful for God’s grace.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Part of today’s epistle is: James 2:8-13 (NRSV) 8 You do well if you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For the one who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery but if you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be without mercy to anyone who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. Today, God spoke to me through this reading. He admonished me not to be judgemental, without mercy. For I am as guilty as anyone. Did anyone else get have anything to share? Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager
Response:
Part of today’s epistle is: James 2:8-13 (NRSV) 8 You do well if you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For the one who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery but if you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be without mercy to anyone who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. Today, God spoke to me through this reading. He admonished me not to be judgemental, without mercy. For I am as guilty as anyone. Did anyone else get have anything to share? Obedientia et Pax, Daniel Pflager
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