Question:
What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought. Steve Zodiac
Response:
What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought.
God made no mistake. He gave us Free Will… WE chose to make the mistake. God didn’t want puppets on a string.
Response:
It’s not so much that there was a problem with creation, because Genesis tells us that God saw that it was good. The problem lies with our use of creation. God created us with free will. Had he not created us with free will, love would not have been possible. However, because he created us with free will, that left open the possibility of sin. Needless to say, people sin. Now if people sin, and amends thus need to be made, and God created the conditions in which it is possible for sin to occur (don’t misunderstand this as blaming God for sin), then God can exercise mercy by paying that price himself. This is what God did for us when he sent His Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ to suffer and die for our sins. It was an act of mercy for us, a way out of the problems that our free will allowed us to create. Doug
Response:
What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought. God made no mistake. He gave us Free Will… WE chose to make the mistake. God didn’t want puppets on a string.
God didn’t want puppets AND he didn’t want sinners. Hmmm seems we have a dilema on our hands. Steve Zodiac
Response:
It’s not so much that there was a problem with creation, because Genesis tells us that God saw that it was good. The problem lies with our use of creation. God created us with free will. Had he not created us with free will, love would not have been possible. However, because he created us with free will, that left open the possibility of sin. Needless to say, people sin.
He doesn’t want puppets AND he doesn’t want sinners. Can he really have it both ways? Now if people sin, and amends thus need to be made, and God created the conditions in which it is possible for sin to occur (don’t misunderstand this as blaming God for sin), then God can exercise mercy by paying that price himself.
What makes you think God pays the price when we in fact go to hell for our sins? This is what God did for us when he sent His Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ to suffer and die for our sins.
But we die for our sins, and no one else. If we die with sin, then we pay for that sin? Thats what hell is. It was an act of mercy for us, a way out of the problems that our free will allowed us to create.
If our will is free, why do we willfully choose to do wrong? Also, if God can create jesus as a man who did not sin, why didn’t he make us all like that? Was Jesus just a puppet? Steve Zodiac
Response:
He doesn’t want puppets AND he doesn’t want sinners. Can he really have it both ways?
Well, yes, actually, if everyone were to access his enormous mercy. What makes you think God pays the price when we in fact go to hell for our sins?
We don’t have to. We can choose to. We have all sinned. Yet, we can allow God to pay that price so we don’t have to. I don’t know how you feel about freebies, but I like ‘em! But we die for our sins, and no one else. If we die with sin, then we pay for that sin? Thats what hell is.
That goes back to the nature of sin. All sin involves a rejection of either God, or God’s plan for us. God’s plan is heaven. Thus, people end up where they really want to go. If we cooperate with His plan, we go to heaven. When we don’t cooperate, we can either be sorry and repent, or we can keep on not cooperating. If our will is free, why do we willfully choose to do wrong?
Because we like it more. Also, if God can create jesus as a man who did not sin, why didn’t he make us all like that? Was Jesus just a puppet?
No, Jesus was God. Were Jesus to sin, that would be for Him not to cooperate with His own plan. In other words, it would be logically inconsistent. However God, being perfect, cannot be logically inconsistent. Thus, Jesus could not sin, even though His will was free. It was simply not in His nature as God. He could certainly choose, however, whom to show mercy to, and He did so to those everyone else abandoned or shunned. Doug
Response:
He doesn’t want puppets AND he doesn’t want sinners. Can he really have it both ways? Well, yes, actually, if everyone were to access his enormous mercy. What makes you think God pays the price when we in fact go to hell for our sins? We don’t have to. We can choose to. We have all sinned. Yet, we can allow God to pay that price so we don’t have to.
Who is god paying the price of our sin to? I don’t know how you feel about freebies, but I like ‘em!
Its not a freebie if you have to forfit your free will or die in hell. But we die for our sins, and no one else. If we die with sin, then we pay for that sin? Thats what hell is. That goes back to the nature of sin. All sin involves a rejection of either God, or God’s plan for us.
Unless of course one does not believe in god in which case one cannot reject him. God’s plan is heaven.
Then why didn’t he create angels? Thus, people end up where they really want to go.
Thats a load of crap since nobody wants to go to hell for eternity. If we cooperate with His plan, we go to heaven.
Why are disease and suffering a part of his plan? When we don’t cooperate, we can either be sorry and repent, or we can keep on not cooperating. If our will is free, why do we willfully choose to do wrong? Because we like it more.
Then we are not free but motivated by pleasure and or reward. Also, if God can create jesus as a man who did not sin, why didn’t he make us all like that? Was Jesus just a puppet? No, Jesus was God. Were Jesus to sin, that would be for Him not to cooperate with His own plan. In other words, it would be logically inconsistent. However God, being perfect, cannot be logically inconsistent. Thus, Jesus could not sin, even though His will was free. It was simply not in His nature as God. He could certainly choose, however, whom to show mercy to, and He did so to those everyone else abandoned or shunned.
Again, why didn’t god make us perfect? Steve Zodiac
Response:
Its not a freebie if you have to forfit your free will or die in hell.
But the thing is, it is entirely impossible for you to forfeit your free will. It is always there. Unless of course one does not believe in god in which case one cannot reject him.
Sometimes that does involve a rejection of God. Not always. Thats a load of crap since nobody wants to go to hell for eternity.
Nobody wants to go to jail either, but they make choices that land them there. Why are disease and suffering a part of his plan?
That’s a much longer topic to explore. Then we are not free but motivated by pleasure and or reward.
Now you’re getting it. Therein lies the slavery of the will, the motivation by pleasure and reward. However, the human will was meant, not to be in bondage to these things, but to be free. It is precisely through love that we are free, as love involves more than mere pleasure and reward, but a consideration of the other person, or of God. The Pharisees were motivated by pleasure and reward, not by love of God. So no matter how they outwardly fulfilled the law, they couldn’t be made right by it. Pleasure and reward are not bad things, but slavery to them is. We should be using them, rather than them using us. We need to be able to walk away from them when love requires it. Love does not demand things, though. Love makes need apparent, and a response in love is a free addressing of that need. It always involves a choice. Again, why didn’t god make us perfect?
He will, if we let Him. But we have to wait, and have faith. Doug
Response:
What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought.
I’ve thought about it, and I’ll compare the thought process to that of trying the zen concept of one hand clapping. Think about it too long, and you’ll start getting vertigo.
Response:
What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought.
Why? Troll. Steve Zodiac
-Tony — For fairly troll free Catholic discussion, join on the web at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/romancatholic/ "it is all too easy for human beings to prooftext their way into hell." — James R. Black.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought. God made no mistake. He gave us Free Will… WE chose to make the mistake. God didn’t want puppets on a string. God didn’t want puppets AND he didn’t want sinners. Hmmm seems we have a dilema on our hands.
No, that’s not right. He *does* want sinners. He died for sinners. He wants to save them from their sins. He died to save me from my sins.
Response:
What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought.
How was that a mistake? You appear to be judging things from your own limited perspective. What about the requirement of a Bloody Sacrifice makes that some kind of a flaw? What would make one think that was anything but consummate perfection?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought. God made no mistake. He gave us Free Will… WE chose to make the mistake. God didn’t want puppets on a string. God didn’t want puppets AND he didn’t want sinners. Hmmm seems we have a dilema on our hands.
No dilemma… as I said… He gave us Free Will. It was OUR choice. Yes, HE didn’t want sinners… but HE allows us to choose.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought. God made no mistake. He gave us Free Will… WE chose to make the mistake. God didn’t want puppets on a string. God didn’t want puppets AND he didn’t want sinners. Hmmm seems we have a dilema on our hands.
Bingo! Right on one! Who says atheists cannot think? The solution was of course, the one he took. Have one truly perfect man win the way for all the imperfect men. And the only way that could be done is to become man himself. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve Zodiac
Response:
God didn’t want puppets AND he didn’t want sinners. Hmmm seems we have a dilema on our hands.
Dilemas are the stuff that Christian dogma is made from. No, that’s not right. He *does* want sinners.
Yeah, a near empty hell with only a handful of people screaming in pain won’t do. We need lots of sins to fill the place up. He died for sinners.
But then, He realized that dying solves nothing, so He decided to spring back to life again, He never really died. He wants to save them from their sins.
He may want to, but wanting apparently in’t good enough, and God often doesn’t get what He wants, poor guy. A lot of those sinners just go to hell. Many millions of ‘em pour in from China and Moslem countries alone, along with poor dumb southern rednecks that drank themselves blind or wrecked their junk cars on back roads. He died to save me from my sins.
He didn’t die, He is risen, you know.
Response:
Bingo! Right on one! Who says atheists cannot think? The solution was of course, the one he took.
The solution often taken by organized crime, kill somebody. That’ll solve problems, yup! Have one truly perfect man win the way for all the imperfect men.
When God made Adam and Eve, His technology was obviously just in the learning stage. However, God kept trying, and after 4000 years, He at last got it right and managed to make Jesus. Finally, a perfect man! Then what does God do after making this perfect man? He has Him killed! Makes perfect sense!
Response:
What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought. How was that a mistake? You appear to be judging things from your own limited perspective. What about the requirement of a Bloody Sacrifice makes that some kind of a flaw?
The Bloody Sacrifice practice was common among many ancient cultures and Gods. It makes your "God" appear as just one of the gang. Nowadays, we understand that those ancient blood sacrifice rituals were the expressions of cultures now obsolete. Sacrificing an animal or a person to appease an angry god no longer makes any logical sense. Killing a sacrificial victim accomplishes nothing. It is an ancient and out of date superstition. Unfortunately, Christians base their dogma on it, making themselves look foolish.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought. How was that a mistake? You appear to be judging things from your own limited perspective. What about the requirement of a Bloody Sacrifice makes that some kind of a flaw? The Bloody Sacrifice practice was common among many ancient cultures and Gods. It makes your "God" appear as just one of the gang. Nowadays, we understand that those ancient blood sacrifice rituals were the expressions of cultures now obsolete. Sacrificing an animal or a person to appease an angry god no longer makes any logical sense. Killing a sacrificial victim accomplishes nothing. It is an ancient and out of date superstition. Unfortunately, Christians base their dogma on it, making themselves look foolish.
On the contrary. The difference is that blood sacrifice was someone else’s blood. God took that out of the loop by offering himself voluntarily.,something very different dnp bardi
Response:
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, Christopher Robin ("Christopher alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought. God made no mistake. He gave us Free Will… WE chose to make the mistake. God didn’t want puppets on a string.
Tricky. Being omniscient God knew precisely what would happen should he create the world, and us, and has known from eternity. Albeit that our decisions are freely made, what they will be is known to God and has been known to God, well – forever – from well, eternity. Given this, and given that God knew, absolutely and with no doubt what-so-ever every moment of human misery that would be, knew absolutely and with no doubt what-so-ever that some people will spend the remainder of eternity in Hell following a life of abject misery and suffering, one wonders how it is that some choose to call this a "loving" God. How can the creation of beings you know for a fact will suffer appallingly in this world, and in some instances the next where there will be no end to their suffering, be a loving act? Do tell. I’d *really* like to know. — "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You." – Attrib: Pauline Reage. Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion? See: <http://www.Video2CD.com. 35.00 gets your video on DVD. all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read. ** atheist poster child #1 **
Response:
The Bloody Sacrifice practice was common among many ancient cultures and Gods. It makes your "God" appear as just one of the gang. Nowadays, we understand that those ancient blood sacrifice rituals were the expressions of cultures now obsolete. Sacrificing an animal or a person to appease an angry god no longer makes any logical sense. Killing a sacrificial victim accomplishes nothing. It is an ancient and out of date superstition. Unfortunately, Christians base their dogma on it, making themselves look foolish. On the contrary. The difference is that blood sacrifice was someone else’s blood. God took that out of the loop by offering himself voluntarily.,something very different
Nothing is different. What I’m discussing is the fact of the bloody ritual itself, not who is performing it. A God that needs bloody sacrifices to appease anger is a God now totally obsolete. Human culture has advanced far beyond such a primitive stage. We now understand that the forces of nature work according to known scientific laws, not mysterious supernatural forces and entities that must be "appeased."
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, Christopher Robin ("Christopher God made no mistake. He gave us Free Will… WE chose to make the mistake. God didn’t want puppets on a string. Given this, and given that God knew, absolutely and with no doubt what-so-ever every moment of human misery that would be, knew absolutely and with no doubt what-so-ever that some people will spend the remainder of eternity in Hell following a life of abject misery and suffering, one wonders how it is that some choose to call this a "loving" God. How can the creation of beings you know for a fact will suffer appallingly in this world, and in some instances the next where there will be no end to their suffering, be a loving act? Do tell. I’d *really* like to know.
You’re wasting your time. They *won’t* tell. They’ll just continue to offer platitudes about an angry god that *must* be appeased by a blood sacrifice. They’re stuck in an ancient and obsolete mode of thinking.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, Christopher Robin ("Christopher alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought. God made no mistake. He gave us Free Will… WE chose to make the mistake. God didn’t want puppets on a string. Tricky. Being omniscient God knew precisely what would happen should he create the world, and us, and has known from eternity. Albeit that our decisions are freely made, what they will be is known to God and has been known to God, well – forever – from well, eternity. Given this, and given that God knew, absolutely and with no doubt what-so-ever every moment of human misery that would be, knew absolutely and with no doubt what-so-ever that some people will spend the remainder of eternity in Hell following a life of abject misery and suffering, one wonders how it is that some choose to call this a "loving" God. How can the creation of beings you know for a fact will suffer appallingly in this world, and in some instances the next where there will be no end to their suffering, be a loving act? Do tell. I’d *really* like to know.
Here we go again, if suffering is for a season or suffering is self imposed then there is nothing at all wrong with its allowance. Suffering reveals character. Only God can restore from death thoase that have died in suffering which is exactly what scripture declares will happen. All will be ressurected, those who desired a relationship with God to heaven, those who did not want anything to do with God will get exactly what they wanted, hell, a place without any of the goodness of God present.
Response:
alt.atheism – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, Christopher Robin ("Christopher alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought. God made no mistake. He gave us Free Will… WE chose to make the mistake. God didn’t want puppets on a string. Tricky. Being omniscient God knew precisely what would happen should he create the world, and us, and has known from eternity. Albeit that our decisions are freely made, what they will be is known to God and has been known to God, well – forever – from well, eternity. Given this, and given that God knew, absolutely and with no doubt what-so-ever every moment of human misery that would be, knew absolutely and with no doubt what-so-ever that some people will spend the remainder of eternity in Hell following a life of abject misery and suffering, one wonders how it is that some choose to call this a "loving" God. How can the creation of beings you know for a fact will suffer appallingly in this world, and in some instances the next where there will be no end to their suffering, be a loving act? Do tell. I’d *really* like to know. Here we go again, if suffering is for a season or suffering is self imposed then there is nothing at all wrong with its allowance. Suffering reveals character. Only God can restore from death thoase that have died in suffering which is exactly what scripture declares will happen. All will be ressurected, those who desired a relationship with God to heaven, those who did not want anything to do with God will get exactly what they wanted, hell, a place without any of the goodness of God present.
Perhaps, in future, you might forebear answering until you understand the question. — "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You." – Attrib: Pauline Reage. Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion? See: <http://www.Video2CD.com. 35.00 gets your video on DVD. all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read. ** atheist poster child #1 **
Response:
face, groaned, pushed hard, and farted out the following message in – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, Christopher Robin ("Christopher alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought. God made no mistake. He gave us Free Will… WE chose to make the mistake. God didn’t want puppets on a string. Tricky. Being omniscient God knew precisely what would happen should he create the world, and us, and has known from eternity. Albeit that our decisions are freely made, what they will be is known to God and has been known to God, well – forever – from well, eternity. Given this, and given that God knew, absolutely and with no doubt what-so-ever every moment of human misery that would be, knew absolutely and with no doubt what-so-ever that some people will spend the remainder of eternity in Hell following a life of abject misery and suffering, one wonders how it is that some choose to call this a "loving" God. How can the creation of beings you know for a fact will suffer appallingly in this world, and in some instances the next where there will be no end to their suffering, be a loving act? Do tell. I’d *really* like to know.
The God of the Bible could be compared to a spoiled child, given to frequent temper tantrums, who has just been given a rocket launcher, complete with all the ammo he can use, as a birthday present. — Mekkala, Atheist #2148 "When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself!" –Peter O’Toole.
Response:
groaned, pushed hard, and farted out the following message in – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, Christopher Robin reply to alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic What mistake did God make with his creation that required a blood sacrifice of his own making to appease himself for the shorcomings of his own creation? Please give this some thought. God made no mistake. He gave us Free Will… WE chose to make the mistake. God didn’t want puppets on a string. Tricky. Being omniscient God knew precisely what would happen should he create the world, and us, and has known from eternity. Albeit that our decisions are freely made, what they will be is known to God and has been known to God, well – forever – from well, eternity. Given this, and given that God knew, absolutely and with no doubt what-so-ever every moment of human misery that would be, knew absolutely and with no doubt what-so-ever that some people will spend the remainder of eternity in Hell following a life of abject misery and suffering, one wonders how it is that some choose to call this a "loving" God. How can the creation of beings you know for a fact will suffer appallingly in this world, and in some instances the next where there will be no end to their suffering, be a loving act? Do tell. I’d *really* like to know. Here we go again, if suffering is for a season or suffering is self imposed then there is nothing at all wrong with its allowance. Suffering reveals character. Only God can restore from death thoase that have died in suffering which is exactly what scripture declares will happen. All will be ressurected, those who desired a relationship with God to heaven, those who did not want anything to do with God will get exactly what they wanted, hell, a place without any of the goodness of God present.
I think Therion’s point just flew about ten miles over your head. Given that God *knew* that, should he create the universe, many of the inhabitants of that universe would suffer miserably during life, and then go on to suffer horribly in Hell, how could you say that his act of creation was a loving act? Let’s examine a little scenario here. A brilliant genetic engineer has discovered how to make superhumans, and uses this knowledge to create a group of incredibly intelligent creatures. Before the act of creating these creatures, he knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that, due to certain "wiring" in their brains, most of them would act in dangerous ways, and to handle this eventuality he builds tiny, cold, bare cells into which he plans to throw the recalcitrant ones for the rest of their lives. He also knows that to throw them in these cells would be infinite torture for them, due to their intelligence. When this behavior begins to emerge, and he throws the first of them into these cells to live out the rest of their miserable lives alone, he is accused of cruel treatment of these creatures. His response? "I love my creatures! Look at how well I treat those who do *not* become dangerous! If they choose to act in this way, that is their fault and they deserve what they get." "But did you not know before you created them that most of them would act like this?" "Yes, of course I did. But *they* made the choice to do so." Why then did he create them, if you knew that they probably would be like this? Wouldn’t it have been better (and more loving) never to create them, and thus avoid the danger to himself and the necessity of causing them extreme suffering and misery? Was it fair to comdemn these creatures for acting in a certain way, when he knew before he made them that most of them would? Is their behavior not ultimately his responsibility, since he made the choice to make them, knowing what he did? They did not ask to be created. How then is it their fault that they act as is their nature, since they were deliberately created that way? — Mekkala, Atheist #2148 "When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself!" –Peter O’Toole.
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