Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snip) Yes, there exist biological mechanisms that can tap energy from the sun, and chemicals in the environment, and use them to build very remarkable biological structures and keep them fully operational, at least for awhile. But how did these biological mechanisms come into existence without violating the 2nd Law? How do thunderstorms get organized without violating the SLOT? Why do scree piles get sorted? I fail to see how your question in any way, shape, or form, is the answer to my question. A low pressure system and warm, humid conditions cause thunderstorms to developmen. The ‘LOW’ allows warm moist air to rise up. Cool air rushes down and in to replace the void left by the disappearance of the warmer moist air, creating winds. As the warm moist air rises up into the atmosphere, the H2O molecules condense as they lose kinetic energy (i.e. cool)allowing their molecular forces to bond them together into crystaline structures (i.e. snow flakes).  The snowflakes fall toward the earth and as they enter warm surface air they melt into raindrops. Th lower the "Low" the stronger the updrafts that feed warm, moist air into thunderstorms. If the air is very unstable, severe thunderstorms with damaging winds, large hail, and sometimes even tornadoes erupt. The action of rising and descending air within a thunderstorm separates positive and negative charges. Water and ice particles also affect the distribution of electrical charge. Lightning results from the buildup and discharge of electrical energy between positively and negatively charged areas. This high energy electrical discharge rapidly heats the surrounding air which expands rapidly into a shockwave in the direction of right angles to the lightning bolt, thus causing the sound of thunder. The mechanism for sorting is usually gravity. Shake a box of popcorn and gravity will cause the broken pieces of popped corn and the small unpopped kernals will fall to the bottom of the box. Magnetic force is a mechanism that will seperate the ferrous from the non-ferrous. In the above, the 2nd Law is not violated because molecules involved flow fromm lower probability states (e.g. arrangements) to higher probability states.

That is correct. It is the same when followed from generation to generation. To have children which are variations of yourself is not a violation of the 2nd Law. Indeed, for the purposes of thermodynamics, organisms are just heat engines. Put in fuel (bread), some is changed into kinetic energy, some into complex chemical reations; much of the energy is wasted, especially as heat. As can be seen from the above, the origin of a thunderstorm meets the SLOT requirements. However, this leads to the question I posed (see above), have evolutionists discovered a non-directed (i.e. materialist) origin of the known biological mechanisms wherein each cause and effect step has the molecules involved continually flowing from less probable states to more probable states.

It’s called variation and natural selection. So, a plant takes a bit of the Sun’s energy, uses it to combine water and carbon into new living tissue. Some of the energy is used to duplicate existing DNA molecules, and the occasional error in copying occurs. Just as in any heat engine, some of the available energy of the system is lost as "waste" heat. The molecular order in the organism is paid for with the price of molecular disorder in the waste products. The energy from the Sun is paid for with a huge increase in entropy within the Sun itself, as it consumes its hydrogen fuel.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – spake thusly: It is unlikely that the universe is only a few thousand years old. Sure, God may have *willed* it all ready pre-prepared like a drive-through McDonald’s meal. But that isn’t His way. Even Jesus’ parables talk about growning things from seeds and planting seeds – not having them ready-made. Jesus Himself didn’t appear as a grown man but as a babe who then had to grow yet. And yet, Adam and Eve were made as adults.  We’re talking about the beginning, not later.  Jesus’ parable about planting seeds had nothing to do with the creation. Books from the Bible make it clear that a day is as a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years is a day. That says * a lot * to me when it comes to the undestanding creation. Consider it more please, before you go on with your nonsense in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic. If that says a lot to you, then you need to examine what it actually says.  That passage simply tells us that time means nothing to God.  That does not mean that time means nothing to us.  God knows that we are bound by time.  It has no reference to the creation. Also, by your logic, that would mean that everything was created in six thousand years.  Still nowhere near enough time for evolution. — Pastor Dave Raymond "As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee." – Jeremiah 17:16 "Evolution is accepted by zoologists not because it has been observed to occur, or is supported by logically coherent arguments, but because… no alternative explanation is credible.  Whilst the fact of evolution is accepted by every biologist, the mode in which it has occurred and the mechanism by which it has been brought about are still disputable.  …the theory of evolution itself is a theory universally accepted not because it can be proved by logical coherent evidence to be true, but because the only alternative is special creation, which is clearly incredible." – D.M.S. Watson, "Adaptation", Nature, August 10, 1929, Vol. 124

I believe your Watson quote comes from not Watson but from another source that apparently changed the wording around a bit.  The original quote is: "Evolution itself is accepted by zoologists not because it has been observed to occur or is supported by logically coherent arguments,  but because it does fit all the facts of taxonomy, of paleontology, and of geographical distribution, and because no alternative explanation is credible" Quite a difference. HD

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snip) Yes, there exist biological mechanisms that can tap energy from the sun, and chemicals in the environment, and use them to build very remarkable biological structures and keep them fully operational, at least for awhile. But how did these biological mechanisms come into existence without violating the 2nd Law? How do thunderstorms get organized without violating the SLOT? Why do scree piles get sorted? I fail to see how your question in any way, shape, or form, is the answer to my question.

<snip Then perhaps you do not understand what you were asking. Joe

Response:

(snip) Yes, there exist biological mechanisms that can tap energy from the sun, and chemicals in the environment, and use them to build very remarkable biological structures and keep them fully operational, at least for awhile. But how did these biological mechanisms come into existence without violating the 2nd Law? How do thunderstorms get organized without violating the SLOT? Why do scree piles get sorted? I fail to see how your question in any way, shape, or form, is the answer to my question.

That is strange, since you asked how these things get started. I gave you some natural examples of organized things getting started. (snip t storms desxcription) The mechanism for sorting is usually gravity. Shake a box of popcorn and gravity will cause the broken pieces of popped corn and the small unpopped kernals will fall to the bottom of the box. Magnetic force is a mechanism that will seperate the ferrous from the non-ferrous. In the above, the 2nd Law is not violated because molecules involved flow from lower probability states (e.g. arrangements) to higher probability states.

Let’s see the math on this one. As can be seen from the above, the origin of a thunderstorm meets the SLOT requirements. However, this leads to the question I posed (see above), have evolutionists discovered a non-directed (i.e. materialist) origin of the known biological mechanisms wherein each cause and effect step has the molecules involved continually flowing from less probable states to more probable states.

Yes. It’s called developmental biology. Elmer Bataitis