Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

Is there a doctor in the house; what would be the correct term(s) for this?

Harassment. Geri

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – deja.com emanated: Alan, We had an exchange on the NG and I concluded that you were a decent sort whom I had misunderstood.  I hope I was right; if someone doesn’t want to receive e-mails from you, the civil thing to do is stop sending them. There is always the NG if you have something to say.       "But Dawn ignores my Usenet postings." – Alan Ferris Can you provide the message ID where Alan says this?          You’re intellectually dishonest, chicken, as you snipped out the next lines explaining that it was a projection on my part; and a most accurate one at that, I’d wager.  Besides, even in a short statement as that, people would know that he didn’t write that well. Now, go and bake and clean for your husband like a good wifey. Do you have a comprehension problem?          Oh, but I know that you don’t; I simply suggested that you do so, and for the sake of your sanity.          In theory, there’s nothing like a good baking, and followed by a thorough cleaning session, to abate anxiety. Don’t you want to be well? I’m perfectly well, lad.         Well, like I expected you to admit it. Yes, Alan, I admit that I am perfectly well, thank you!

          That was dishonest, chicken. I don’t bake – I leave that sort of thing to you men.         Does Mr. Jarvis…bake? My son does bake, yes.

            No no, I meant the hubby.         Is/was your dear ol’ mum of the same rebellious nature? Nope, my Mum is very conventional.

            As she should be; now why have you not followed her example? Alan

Response:

I don’t bake – I leave that sort of thing to you men.         Does Mr. Jarvis…bake? My son does bake, yes.         Is/was your dear ol’ mum of the same rebellious nature? Nope, my Mum is very conventional.

And a damn good cook too. — Alan Ferris eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211 EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div. When the only colour is black –     the only sound     the broken bell THEN talk to me about why.          Spike Milligan arc’s Gallery: http://www3.mistral.co.uk/xalan/rogue.htm ICQ UIN: 12811297

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – emanated: Alan, We had an exchange on the NG and I concluded that you were a decent sort whom I had misunderstood.  I hope I was right; if someone doesn’t want to receive e-mails from you, the civil thing to do is stop sending them. There is always the NG if you have something to say.       "But Dawn ignores my Usenet postings." – Alan Ferris Can you provide the message ID where Alan says this?          You’re intellectually dishonest, chicken, as you snipped out the next lines explaining that it was a projection on my part; and a most accurate one at that, I’d wager.  Besides, even in a short statement as that, people would know that he didn’t write that well. Now, go and bake and clean for your husband like a good wifey. Do you have a comprehension problem?          Oh, but I know that you don’t; I simply suggested that you do so, and for the sake of your sanity.          In theory, there’s nothing like a good baking, and followed by a thorough cleaning session, to abate anxiety. Don’t you want to be well? I’m perfectly well, lad.

        Well, like I expected you to admit it. I don’t bake – I leave that sort of thing to you men.

        Does Mr. Jarvis…bake?         Is/was your dear ol’ mum of the same rebellious nature? Alan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – deja.com emanated: Alan, We had an exchange on the NG and I concluded that you were a decent sort whom I had misunderstood.  I hope I was right; if someone doesn’t want to receive e-mails from you, the civil thing to do is stop sending them. There is always the NG if you have something to say.       "But Dawn ignores my Usenet postings." – Alan Ferris Can you provide the message ID where Alan says this?          You’re intellectually dishonest, chicken, as you snipped out the next lines explaining that it was a projection on my part; and a most accurate one at that, I’d wager.  Besides, even in a short statement as that, people would know that he didn’t write that well. Now, go and bake and clean for your husband like a good wifey. Do you have a comprehension problem?          Oh, but I know that you don’t; I simply suggested that you do so, and for the sake of your sanity.          In theory, there’s nothing like a good baking, and followed by a thorough cleaning session, to abate anxiety. Don’t you want to be well? I’m perfectly well, lad.         Well, like I expected you to admit it.

Yes, Alan, I admit that I am perfectly well, thank you! I don’t bake – I leave that sort of thing to you men.         Does Mr. Jarvis…bake?

My son does bake, yes.         Is/was your dear ol’ mum of the same rebellious nature?

Nope, my Mum is very conventional. — Karen http://www.khjarvis.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/nativity.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – emanated: Alan, We had an exchange on the NG and I concluded that you were a decent sort whom I had misunderstood.  I hope I was right; if someone doesn’t want to receive e-mails from you, the civil thing to do is stop sending them. There is always the NG if you have something to say.       "But Dawn ignores my Usenet postings." – Alan Ferris Can you provide the message ID where Alan says this?          You’re intellectually dishonest, chicken, as you snipped out the next lines explaining that it was a projection on my part; and a most accurate one at that, I’d wager.  Besides, even in a short statement as that, people would know that he didn’t write that well. Now, go and bake and clean for your husband like a good wifey. Do you have a comprehension problem?          Oh, but I know that you don’t; I simply suggested that you do so, and for the sake of your sanity.          In theory, there’s nothing like a good baking, and followed by a thorough cleaning session, to abate anxiety. Don’t you want to be well?

I’m perfectly well, lad. I don’t bake – I leave that sort of thing to you men. — Karen http://www.khjarvis.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/nativity.htm

Response:

(DawnoftheForest) emanated: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello group, Today I killfiled Mr. Ferris again as I stated that I would. I also placed his name on mail block with AOL as he was sending me numerous emails daily. ( I never read this mail but delete it right away). Today, after placing this mail block, I received 4 more emails from Mr. Ferris’  with other names!  I have since blocked all of these also. I also deleted these without reading the content. Talk about obsession! I post these for any other persons that may be having trouble such as I have experienced. ( I sincerely hope you aren’t). All of the names below are Mr. Alan Ferris Also for Ms.Karen Jarvis who also sent me email- What makes you both think that I want to read mail from persons I have on killfile? Sorry, but you have both proved to me that you are not capable of being civil in this newsgroup. I even gave Mr. Ferris a second chance. I will pray for both of you , and I ask the group to also offer prayers for these people. Thank you, Dawn          I’d say Ferris has one of those obsessive disorders.  Is there a doctor in the house; what would be the correct term(s) for this? I didn’t realise his hystericism had reached such proportions.

I would like to know who "Ms" karen jarvis is! — Karen http://www.khjarvis.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/nativity.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – emanated: Alan, We had an exchange on the NG and I concluded that you were a decent sort whom I had misunderstood.  I hope I was right; if someone doesn’t want to receive e-mails from you, the civil thing to do is stop sending them. There is always the NG if you have something to say.       "But Dawn ignores my Usenet postings." – Alan Ferris Can you provide the message ID where Alan says this?          You’re intellectually dishonest, chicken, as you snipped out the next lines explaining that it was a projection on my part; and a most accurate one at that, I’d wager.  Besides, even in a short statement as that, people would know that he didn’t write that well. Now, go and bake and clean for your husband like a good wifey. Do you have a comprehension problem?

         Oh, but I know that you don’t; I simply suggested that you do so, and for the sake of your sanity.          In theory, there’s nothing like a good baking, and followed by a thorough cleaning session, to abate anxiety. Don’t you want to be well? Alan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – emanated: Alan, We had an exchange on the NG and I concluded that you were a decent sort whom I had misunderstood.  I hope I was right; if someone doesn’t want to receive e-mails from you, the civil thing to do is stop sending them. There is always the NG if you have something to say.       "But Dawn ignores my Usenet postings." – Alan Ferris Can you provide the message ID where Alan says this?          You’re intellectually dishonest, chicken, as you snipped out the next lines explaining that it was a projection on my part; and a most accurate one at that, I’d wager.  Besides, even in a short statement as that, people would know that he didn’t write that well. Now, go and bake and clean for your husband like a good wifey.

Do you have a comprehension problem? — Karen http://www.khjarvis.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/nativity.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello group, Today I killfiled Mr. Ferris again as I stated that I would. I also placed his name on mail block with AOL as he was sending me numerous emails daily. ( I never read this mail but delete it right away). Today, after placing this mail block, I received 4 more emails from Mr. Ferris’  with other names!  I have since blocked all of these also. I also deleted these without reading the content. Talk about obsession! I post these for any other persons that may be having trouble such as I have experienced. ( I sincerely hope you aren’t). All of the names below are Mr. Alan Ferris Also for Ms.Karen Jarvis who also sent me email- What makes you both think that I want to read mail from persons I have on killfile? Sorry, but you have both proved to me that you are not capable of being civil in this newsgroup. I even gave Mr. Ferris a second chance. I will pray for both of you , and I ask the group to also offer prayers for these people. Thank you, Dawn

         I’d say Ferris has one of those obsessive disorders.  Is there a doctor in the house; what would be the correct term(s) for this? I didn’t realise his hystericism had reached such proportions.          What say you, Ferris? Alan

Response:

No.  But this is one of the reasons I still use Deja to read/write to the alt groups.  Even if someone were to start spamming me, it doesn’t effect my main mail address. Typically, however, the biggest problem are users who will scan the newsgroups for addresses to spam.  All it takes is one post to get on the sucker list.  Why people think that the religious groups are the ideal location to get addresses for the promotion of X-Rated web pages is beyond me. — Peace & Good! Christopher Beattie SFO KOC, SPEBSQSA, et.al.

Response:

Dear Alan: Please be advised that the repeded transmission of emails which are not wanted by the receiver is a gross violation of most if not all standard service privoder’s TOS and in many cases repeded offenses can cause said service provider to terminate your contract because they don’t want to deal with the complaints they are getting about your TOS violation. It is also a gross violation of all uunet and mail systems protocols and standard. it is also simply gross, rude, obnoxious, and just wrong. Sorry Alan, but if someone doesn’t want to read your message, there is nothing you can do about it.  Hopefully, we will one day do to email what they are about to do in New York to Telephone Calls, and what they currently do in New York with annoyance calls. — Peace & Good! Christopher Beattie SFO KOC, SPEBSQSA, et.al.

Response:

No.  But this is one of the reasons I still use Deja to read/write to the alt groups.  Even if someone were to start spamming me, it doesn’t effect my main mail address.

Amen and amen to that!  I use Deja for exactly the same reason. — Regards, D. Typically, however, the biggest problem are users who will scan the newsgroups for addresses to spam.  All it takes is one post to get on the sucker list.  Why people think that the religious groups are the ideal location to get addresses for the promotion of X-Rated web pages is beyond me. — Peace & Good! Christopher Beattie SFO KOC, SPEBSQSA, et.al.

– Regards, D.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – emanated: Alan, We had an exchange on the NG and I concluded that you were a decent sort whom I had misunderstood.  I hope I was right; if someone doesn’t want to receive e-mails from you, the civil thing to do is stop sending them. There is always the NG if you have something to say.       "But Dawn ignores my Usenet postings." – Alan Ferris Can you provide the message ID where Alan says this?

         You’re intellectually dishonest, chicken, as you snipped out the next lines explaining that it was a projection on my part; and a most accurate one at that, I’d wager.  Besides, even in a short statement as that, people would know that he didn’t write that well. Now, go and bake and clean for your husband like a good wifey. Alan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Hello group, Today I killfiled Mr. Ferris again as I stated that I would. I also placed his name on mail block with AOL as he was sending me numerous emails daily. ( I never read this mail but delete it right away). Today, after placing this mail block, I received 4 more emails from Mr. Ferris’  with other names!  I have since blocked all of these also. I also deleted these without reading the content. Talk about obsession! I post these for any other persons that may be having trouble such as I have experienced. ( I sincerely hope you aren’t). All of the names below are Mr. Alan Ferris  Also for Ms.Karen Jarvis who also sent me email- What makes you both think that I want to read mail from persons I have on killfile? Sorry, but you have both proved to me that you are not capable of being civil in this newsgroup. I even gave Mr. Ferris a second chance.  I will pray for both of you , and I ask the group to also offer prayers for these people. Thank you, Dawn

A simple CC is hardly bothering *YOU* by email!! Karen

Response:

emanated: Alan, We had an exchange on the NG and I concluded that you were a decent sort whom I had misunderstood.  I hope I was right; if someone doesn’t want to receive e-mails from you, the civil thing to do is stop sending them. There is always the NG if you have something to say.       "But Dawn ignores my Usenet postings." – Alan Ferris

Can you provide the message ID where Alan says this? — Karen http://www.khjarvis.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/nativity.htm

Response:

Alan, We had an exchange on the NG and I concluded that you were a decent sort whom I had misunderstood.  I hope I was right; if someone doesn’t want to receive e-mails from you, the civil thing to do is stop sending them. There is always the NG if you have something to say.

      "But Dawn ignores my Usenet postings." – Alan Ferris How’s that for an accurate projection?  Oh, but you’ll never see him admit to it, but he’s thinking it all the same. Don’t you agree, Ferris? Alan

Response:

Alan, We had an exchange on the NG and I concluded that you were a decent sort whom I had misunderstood.  I hope I was right; if someone doesn’t want to receive e-mails from you, the civil thing to do is stop sending them. There is always the NG if you have something to say. — Regards, D. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello group, Today I killfiled Mr. Ferris again as I stated that I would. I also placed his name on mail block with AOL as he was sending me numerous emails daily. ( I never read this mail but delete it right away). Today, after placing this mail block, I received 4 more emails from Mr. Ferris’  with other names!  I have since blocked all of these also. I also deleted these without reading the content. Talk about obsession! I post these for any other persons that may be having trouble such as I have experienced. ( I sincerely hope you aren’t). All of the names below are Mr. Alan Ferris Also for Ms.Karen Jarvis who also sent me email- What makes you both think that I want to read mail from persons I have on killfile? Sorry, but you have both proved to me that you are not capable of being civil in this newsgroup. I even gave Mr. Ferris a second chance. I will pray for both of you , and I ask the group to also offer prayers for these people. Thank you, Dawn Well he did it again, another email at 6:30 EST. here is name #5 This is getting ridiculous – I just hope it is over soon.   Peace, please                                         Dawn Try reaing it! I am trying to offer you a solution. Is your hatred and bigotry that ingrained? Emailed agian: To: Forest Dawn, if you really want to not hear from me again.  Then do the decent and honest thing.  Stop mentioning me after you claim to have plonked me.  Mention me again and I shall keep emailing you to remind you of how dishonest and low your really are. We both know how much the truth is hurting you, so if you really want to stop, then I do not expect to see you mention me again. I think that is fair to you.  I realise that you now will never apologise for the lies you told about me and others.  That I suppose is between you and your conscience.  I hope you manage to live with it. Maybe somebody else may point this out to her? — Alan Ferris

Response:

This is getting ridiculous – I just hope it is over soon.

Block the whole domain. Geri

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello group, Today I killfiled Mr. Ferris again as I stated that I would. I also placed his name on mail block with AOL as he was sending me numerous emails daily. ( I never read this mail but delete it right away). Today, after placing this mail block, I received 4 more emails from Mr. Ferris’  with other names!  I have since blocked all of these also. I also deleted these without reading the content. Talk about obsession! I post these for any other persons that may be having trouble such as I have experienced. ( I sincerely hope you aren’t). All of the names below are Mr. Alan Ferris Also for Ms.Karen Jarvis who also sent me email- What makes you both think that I want to read mail from persons I have on killfile? Sorry, but you have both proved to me that you are not capable of being civil in this newsgroup. I even gave Mr. Ferris a second chance. I will pray for both of you , and I ask the group to also offer prayers for these people. Thank you, Dawn Well he did it again, another email at 6:30 EST. here is name #5 This is getting ridiculous – I just hope it is over soon.   Peace, please                                         Dawn Try reaing it! I am trying to offer you a solution. Is your hatred and bigotry that ingrained? Emailed agian: To: Forest Dawn, if you really want to not hear from me again.  Then do the decent and honest thing.  Stop mentioning me after you claim to have plonked me.  Mention me again and I shall keep emailing you to remind you of how dishonest and low your really are. We both know how much the truth is hurting you, so if you really want to stop, then I do not expect to see you mention me again. I think that is fair to you.  I realise that you now will never apologise for the lies you told about me and others.  That I suppose is between you and your conscience.  I hope you manage to live with it. Maybe somebody else may point this out to her?

She probably has to ask that poor priest if she’s allowed to read your emails!! Karen

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello group, Today I killfiled Mr. Ferris again as I stated that I would. I also placed his name on mail block with AOL as he was sending me numerous emails daily. ( I never read this mail but delete it right away). Today, after placing this mail block, I received 4 more emails from Mr. Ferris’  with other names!  I have since blocked all of these also. I also deleted these without reading the content. Talk about obsession! I post these for any other persons that may be having trouble such as I have experienced. ( I sincerely hope you aren’t). All of the names below are Mr. Alan Ferris Also for Ms.Karen Jarvis who also sent me email- What makes you both think that I want to read mail from persons I have on killfile? Sorry, but you have both proved to me that you are not capable of being civil in this newsgroup. I even gave Mr. Ferris a second chance. I will pray for both of you , and I ask the group to also offer prayers for these people. Thank you, Dawn Well he did it again, another email at 6:30 EST. here is name #5   This is getting ridiculous – I just hope it is over soon.   Peace, please                                         Dawn

Try reaing it!   I am trying to offer you a solution. Is your hatred and bigotry that ingrained? Emailed agian: To: Forest Dawn, if you really want to not hear from me again.  Then do the decent and honest thing.  Stop mentioning me after you claim to have plonked me.  Mention me again and I shall keep emailing you to remind you of how dishonest and low your really are. We both know how much the truth is hurting you, so if you really want to stop, then I do not expect to see you mention me again. I think that is fair to you.  I realise that you now will never apologise for the lies you told about me and others.  That I suppose is between you and your conscience.  I hope you manage to live with it. Maybe somebody else may point this out to her? — Alan Ferris eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211 EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div. When the only colour is black –     the only sound     the broken bell THEN talk to me about why.          Spike Milligan arc’s Gallery: http://www3.mistral.co.uk/xalan/rogue.htm ICQ UIN: 12811297

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello group, Today I killfiled Mr. Ferris again as I stated that I would. I also placed his name on mail block with AOL as he was sending me numerous emails daily. ( I never read this mail but delete it right away). Today, after placing this mail block, I received 4 more emails from Mr. Ferris’  with other names!  I have since blocked all of these also. I also deleted these without reading the content. Talk about obsession! I post these for any other persons that may be having trouble such as I have experienced. ( I sincerely hope you aren’t). All of the names below are Mr. Alan Ferris Also for Ms.Karen Jarvis who also sent me email- What makes you both think that I want to read mail from persons I have on killfile? Sorry, but you have both proved to me that you are not capable of being civil in this newsgroup. I even gave Mr. Ferris a second chance. I will pray for both of you , and I ask the group to also offer prayers for these people. Thank you, Dawn  Well he did it again, another email at 6:30 EST. here is name #5 This is getting ridiculous – I just hope it is over soon.   Peace, please                                          Dawn

Just ignore them, Dawn.  They are children.  Their purpose here is to cause mischief. — Bruce "Soli Deo gloria"

Response:

 Hello group, Today I killfiled Mr. Ferris again as I stated that I would. I also placed his name on mail block with AOL as he was sending me numerous emails daily. ( I never read this mail but delete it right away). Today, after placing this mail block, I received 4 more emails from Mr. Ferris’  with other names!  I have since blocked all of these also. I also deleted these without reading the content. Talk about obsession! I post these for any other persons that may be having trouble such as I have experienced. ( I sincerely hope you aren’t). All of the names below are Mr. Alan Ferris  Also for Ms.Karen Jarvis who also sent me email- What makes you both think that I want to read mail from persons I have on killfile? Sorry, but you have both proved to me that you are not capable of being civil in this newsgroup. I even gave Mr. Ferris a second chance.  I will pray for both of you , and I ask the group to also offer prayers for these people. Thank you, Dawn

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello group, Today I killfiled Mr. Ferris again as I stated that I would. I also placed his name on mail block with AOL as he was sending me numerous emails daily. ( I never read this mail but delete it right away). Today, after placing this mail block, I received 4 more emails from Mr. Ferris’  with other names!  I have since blocked all of these also. I also deleted these without reading the content. Talk about obsession! I post these for any other persons that may be having trouble such as I have experienced. ( I sincerely hope you aren’t). All of the names below are Mr. Alan Ferris Also for Ms.Karen Jarvis who also sent me email- What makes you both think that I want to read mail from persons I have on killfile? Sorry, but you have both proved to me that you are not capable of being civil in this newsgroup. I even gave Mr. Ferris a second chance. I will pray for both of you , and I ask the group to also offer prayers for these people. Thank you, Dawn

Shame she is more ignorant than I expected.  I have writen to offer her peace.  Stop takingn snide pot shots and me and I will leave her in peace.  Seems she prefers her vile shots from hiding.  So be it.  I did try! Message I sent to dawn: To: Forest Dawn, if you really want to not hear from me again.  Then do the decent and honest thing.  Stop mentioning me after you claim to have plonked me.  Mention me again and I shall keep emailing you to remind you of how dishonest and low your really are. We both know how much the truth is hurting you, so if you really want to stop, then I do not expect to see you mention me again. I think that is fair to you.  I realise that you now will never apologise for the lies you told about me and others.  That I suppose is between you and your conscience.  I hope you manage to live with it. — Alan Ferris eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211 EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div. When the only colour is black –     the only sound     the broken bell THEN talk to me about why.          Spike Milligan arc’s Gallery: http://www3.mistral.co.uk/xalan/rogue.htm ICQ UIN: 12811297 — Alan Ferris eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211 EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div. When the only colour is black –     the only sound     the broken bell THEN talk to me about why.          Spike Milligan arc’s Gallery: http://www3.mistral.co.uk/xalan/rogue.htm ICQ UIN: 12811297

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello group, Today I killfiled Mr. Ferris again as I stated that I would. I also placed his name on mail block with AOL as he was sending me numerous emails daily. ( I never read this mail but delete it right away). Today, after placing this mail block, I received 4 more emails from Mr. Ferris’  with other names!  I have since blocked all of these also. I also deleted these without reading the content. Talk about obsession! I post these for any other persons that may be having trouble such as I have experienced. ( I sincerely hope you aren’t). All of the names below are Mr. Alan Ferris Also for Ms.Karen Jarvis who also sent me email- What makes you both think that I want to read mail from persons I have on killfile? Sorry, but you have both proved to me that you are not capable of being civil in this newsgroup. I even gave Mr. Ferris a second chance. I will pray for both of you , and I ask the group to also offer prayers for these people. Thank you, Dawn

 Well he did it again, another email at 6:30 EST. here is name #5   This is getting ridiculous – I just hope it is over soon.   Peace, please                                          Dawn

Response:

Question:

If you look, you’ll find much truth in what we preach. Of course, you’ll find even more bullshit in our works, but, unlike most religions, we admit it. — Yohan the Lost House of the Crooked Path Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I usually don’t go much for Discordian stuff, but this one is pretty good. The cause of suffering… A SERMON ON ETHICS AND LOVE One day Mal-2 asked the messenger spirit Saint Gulik to approach the Goddess and request Her presence for some desperate advice. Shortly afterwards the radio came on by itself, and an ethereal female Voice said YES? "O! Eris! Blessed Mother of Man! Queen of Chaos! Daughter of Discord! Concubine of Confusion! O! Exquisite Lady, I beseech You to lift a heavy burden from my heart!" WHAT BOTHERS YOU, MAL? YOU DON’T SOUND WELL. "I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible visions of pain. Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe." WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THAT, IF IT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO? "But nobody Wants it! Everybody hates it." OH. WELL, THEN STOP. At which moment She turned herself into an aspirin commercial and left The Polyfather stranded alone with his species. — Yohan the Lost House of the Crooked Path Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia! My Dear Fellowmen,      Why do we suffer?      I would like to share with you the simple answer that the Holy Spirit gave when I raised this question to Him in one of our sessions with Him.  This was His reply:  "If there is no suffering, there is no God."      The reply seems logical, doesn’t it?  Who will need God if there are no sufferings.  If one is suffering from an incurable disease which specialists of the medical profession could not even find a cure, who does he turn to for help?  From his fellowmen or from someone with supernatural powers to cure him?      Do you agree or disagree with that simple answer of the Holy Spirit?  Your views about this topic are most welcome in the newsgroups.      I would like to inform you that our sessions with the Holy Spirit are tape recorded.  They are in the Filipino language.  I just transcribe them and translate them to English.  You will read some of what I have translated in my website below.  Please have a read of His prayers, messages, prophecies.  Pick up what you think is good for you.      God bless us always. In Christ, with love, Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ "If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!"  Rev. 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22 (Good News Bible)

Response:

I usually don’t go much for Discordian stuff, but this one is pretty good. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The cause of suffering… A SERMON ON ETHICS AND LOVE One day Mal-2 asked the messenger spirit Saint Gulik to approach the Goddess and request Her presence for some desperate advice. Shortly afterwards the radio came on by itself, and an ethereal female Voice said YES? "O! Eris! Blessed Mother of Man! Queen of Chaos! Daughter of Discord! Concubine of Confusion! O! Exquisite Lady, I beseech You to lift a heavy burden from my heart!" WHAT BOTHERS YOU, MAL? YOU DON’T SOUND WELL. "I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible visions of pain. Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe." WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THAT, IF IT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO? "But nobody Wants it! Everybody hates it." OH. WELL, THEN STOP. At which moment She turned herself into an aspirin commercial and left The Polyfather stranded alone with his species. — Yohan the Lost House of the Crooked Path Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia! My Dear Fellowmen,      Why do we suffer?      I would like to share with you the simple answer that the Holy Spirit gave when I raised this question to Him in one of our sessions with Him.  This was His reply:  "If there is no suffering, there is no God."      The reply seems logical, doesn’t it?  Who will need God if there are no sufferings.  If one is suffering from an incurable disease which specialists of the medical profession could not even find a cure, who does he turn to for help?  From his fellowmen or from someone with supernatural powers to cure him?      Do you agree or disagree with that simple answer of the Holy Spirit?  Your views about this topic are most welcome in the newsgroups.      I would like to inform you that our sessions with the Holy Spirit are tape recorded.  They are in the Filipino language.  I just transcribe them and translate them to English.  You will read some of what I have translated in my website below.  Please have a read of His prayers, messages, prophecies.  Pick up what you think is good for you.      God bless us always. In Christ, with love, Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ "If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!"  Rev. 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22 (Good News Bible)

Response:

The cure for suffering… Part Five     The Golden Secret NONSENSE AS SALVATION The human race will begin solving it’s problems on the day that it ceases taking itself so seriously. To that end, POEE proposes the countergame of NONSENSE AS SALVATION. Salvation from an ugly and barbarous existence that is the result of taking order so seriously and so seriously fearing contrary orders and disorder, that GAMES are taken as more important than LIFE; rather than taking LIFE AS THE ART OF PLAYING GAMES. To this end, we propose that man develop his innate love for disorder, and play with The Goddess Eris.  And know that it is a joyful play, and that thereby CAN BE REVOKED THE CURSE OF GREYFACE. If you can master nonsense as well as you have already learned to master sense, then each will expose the other for what it is: absurdity.  From that moment of illumination, a man begins to be free regardless of his surroundings.  He becomes free to play order games and change them at will. He becomes free to play disorder games just for the hell of it.  He becomes free to play neither or both.  And as the master of his own games, he plays without fear, and therefore without frustration, and therefore with good will in his soul and love in his being. And when men become free then mankind will be free. May you be free of The Curse of Greyface. May the Goddess put twinkles in your eyes. May you have the knowledge of a sage,     and the wisdom of a child. Hail Eris. — Yohan the Lost House of the Crooked Path Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Dear Fellowmen,      Why do we suffer?      I would like to share with you the simple answer that the Holy Spirit gave when I raised this question to Him in one of our sessions with Him.  This was His reply:  "If there is no suffering, there is no God."      The reply seems logical, doesn’t it?  Who will need God if there are no sufferings.  If one is suffering from an incurable disease which specialists of the medical profession could not even find a cure, who does he turn to for help?  From his fellowmen or from someone with supernatural powers to cure him?      Do you agree or disagree with that simple answer of the Holy Spirit?  Your views about this topic are most welcome in the newsgroups.      I would like to inform you that our sessions with the Holy Spirit are tape recorded.  They are in the Filipino language.  I just transcribe them and translate them to English.  You will read some of what I have translated in my website below.  Please have a read of His prayers, messages, prophecies.  Pick up what you think is good for you.      God bless us always. In Christ, with love, Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ "If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!"  Rev. 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22 (Good News Bible)

Response:

The cause of suffering… A SERMON ON ETHICS AND LOVE One day Mal-2 asked the messenger spirit Saint Gulik to approach the Goddess and request Her presence for some desperate advice. Shortly afterwards the radio came on by itself, and an ethereal female Voice said YES? "O! Eris! Blessed Mother of Man! Queen of Chaos! Daughter of Discord! Concubine of Confusion! O! Exquisite Lady, I beseech You to lift a heavy burden from my heart!" WHAT BOTHERS YOU, MAL? YOU DON’T SOUND WELL. "I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible visions of pain. Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe." WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THAT, IF IT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO? "But nobody Wants it! Everybody hates it." OH. WELL, THEN STOP. At which moment She turned herself into an aspirin commercial and left The Polyfather stranded alone with his species. — Yohan the Lost House of the Crooked Path Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Dear Fellowmen,      Why do we suffer?      I would like to share with you the simple answer that the Holy Spirit gave when I raised this question to Him in one of our sessions with Him.  This was His reply:  "If there is no suffering, there is no God."      The reply seems logical, doesn’t it?  Who will need God if there are no sufferings.  If one is suffering from an incurable disease which specialists of the medical profession could not even find a cure, who does he turn to for help?  From his fellowmen or from someone with supernatural powers to cure him?      Do you agree or disagree with that simple answer of the Holy Spirit?  Your views about this topic are most welcome in the newsgroups.      I would like to inform you that our sessions with the Holy Spirit are tape recorded.  They are in the Filipino language.  I just transcribe them and translate them to English.  You will read some of what I have translated in my website below.  Please have a read of His prayers, messages, prophecies.  Pick up what you think is good for you.      God bless us always. In Christ, with love, Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ "If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!"  Rev. 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22 (Good News Bible)

Response:

My Dear Fellowmen,      Why do we suffer?        I would like to share with you the simple answer that the Holy Spirit gave when I raised this question to Him in one of our sessions with Him.  This was His reply:  "If there is no suffering, there is no God."      The reply seems logical, doesn’t it?  Who will need God if there are no sufferings.  If one is suffering from an incurable disease which specialists of the medical profession could not even find a cure, who does he turn to for help?  From his fellowmen or from someone with supernatural powers to cure him?      Do you agree or disagree with that simple answer of the Holy Spirit?  Your views about this topic are most welcome in the newsgroups.        I would like to inform you that our sessions with the Holy Spirit are tape recorded.  They are in the Filipino language.  I just transcribe them and translate them to English.  You will read some of what I have translated in my website below.  Please have a read of His prayers, messages, prophecies.  Pick up what you think is good for you.      God bless us always. In Christ, with love, Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ "If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!"  Rev. 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22 (Good News Bible)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Dear Fellowmen,     Why do we suffer?       I would like to share with you the simple answer that the Holy Spirit gave when I raised this question to Him in one of our sessions with Him.  This was His reply:  "If there is no suffering, there is no God."     The reply seems logical, doesn’t it?  Who will need God if there are no sufferings.  If one is suffering from an incurable disease which specialists of the medical profession could not even find a cure, who does he turn to for help?  From his fellowmen or from someone with supernatural powers to cure him?     Do you agree or disagree with that simple answer of the Holy Spirit?  Your views about this topic are most welcome in the newsgroups.       I would like to inform you that our sessions with the Holy Spirit are tape recorded.  They are in the Filipino language.  I just transcribe them and translate them to English.  You will read some of what I have translated in my website below.  Please have a read of His prayers, messages, prophecies.  Pick up what you think is good for you.     God bless us always. In Christ, with love, Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ "If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!"  Rev. 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22 (Good News Bible)

Respectfully, I do not think it is God the Holy Spirit Who is communicating with you. "Sessions with" a spirit entity sounds a lot like New Age kind of stuff. If that is what it is, it has no place on the Roman Catholic newsgroup. The answer to "why do we suffer," has already been explained by God the Holy Spirit. The idea that without suffering there is no God, is nonsense, which is why I say to you that I do not think it is God the Holy Spirit who is communicating with you. In Heaven, there is no suffering, at all, of any kind. Thus, since God is the God of Heaven, that would contradict the answer you have received. So, please seek the answer from the real God, instead of trying to channel it out of spirits.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Dear Fellowmen,      Why do we suffer?      I would like to share with you the simple answer that the Holy Spirit gave when I raised this question to Him in one of our sessions with Him.  This was His reply:  "If there is no suffering, there is no God."      The reply seems logical, doesn’t it?  Who will need God if there are no sufferings.  If one is suffering from an incurable disease which specialists of the medical profession could not even find a cure, who does he turn to for help?  From his fellowmen or from someone with supernatural powers to cure him?      Do you agree or disagree with that simple answer of the Holy Spirit?  Your views about this topic are most welcome in the newsgroups.      I would like to inform you that our sessions with the Holy Spirit are tape recorded.  They are in the Filipino language.  I just transcribe them and translate them to English.  You will read some of what I have translated in my website below.  Please have a read of His prayers, messages, prophecies.  Pick up what you think is good for you.      God bless us always.

We may need god because we suffer but i’ll believe in him when I suffer no more. — http://thenewrepublic.com/ &  http://www.newcriterion.com/ http://www.observer.com/arts.htm http://www.chicagoreader.com/movies/ http://www.villagevoice.com/film/ Before you buy.

Response:

I tell you why, because christians do not listen to Jesus. ** These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not – Matthew 10:5 *** Christians are the source of all problems and thus misery of the world. ** – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Dear Fellowmen,      Why do we suffer?      I would like to share with you the simple answer that the Holy Spirit gave when I raised this question to Him in one of our sessions with Him.  This was His reply:  "If there is no suffering, there is no God."      The reply seems logical, doesn’t it?  Who will need God if there are no sufferings.  If one is suffering from an incurable disease which specialists of the medical profession could not even find a cure, who does he turn to for help?  From his fellowmen or from someone with supernatural powers to cure him?      Do you agree or disagree with that simple answer of the Holy Spirit?  Your views about this topic are most welcome in the newsgroups.      I would like to inform you that our sessions with the Holy Spirit are tape recorded.  They are in the Filipino language.  I just transcribe them and translate them to English.  You will read some of what I have translated in my website below.  Please have a read of His prayers, messages, prophecies.  Pick up what you think is good for you.      God bless us always. In Christ, with love, Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ "If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!"  Rev. 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22 (Good News Bible)

Before you buy.

Response:

why so little time and consideration is given to the apocalyptic message? In Fatima, first of all, in Kibeho, in Garbandal and in Medjugorje. Why also the Vatican has changed the meaning of the third secret? "When will happen these things?" "When will be finished the strength of the saint people" Prophet Daniel thousands of years ago.

Response:

Dear Joseph and my Fellowmen, Respectfully, I do not think it is God the Holy Spirit Who is communicating with you. "Sessions with" a spirit entity sounds a lot like New Age kind of stuff. If that is what it is, it has no place on the Roman Catholic newsgroup.

     I understand the wariness of the Roman Catholics about spirits. Are all spirits evil?  No, they are not.  Is the Holy Spirit evil?  Of course, not.  The Holy Spirit is a spirit.  We do not see Him since He is a spirit.  But He is not an evil spirit.      In 1 John 4:1-3, we are taught by John how to discern if a spirit is a true spirit or a false spirit.  Verse 2 from the Good News Bible states: "This is how you will be able to know whether it is God’s spirit: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus Christ came as a human being has the Spirit who comes from God.  But anyone who denies this about Jesus does not have the Spirit from God.  The spirit that he has is from the Enemy of Christ."      The angels Gabriel and Michael mentioned in the Bible, are they evil spirits?  Of course, they are not.      I assure you that the spirit we talk to is a holy spirit. Actually, we believe that He is THE Holy Spirit.  Please scrutinize His messages, prayers, prophecies and messages in my website.  Then report in the newsgroup your evaluation. The answer to "why do we suffer," has already been explained by God the Holy Spirit.

     Please tell us His explanation.  I am interested to know it. The idea that without suffering there is no God, is nonsense, which is why I say to you that I do not think it is God the Holy Spirit who is communicating with you.

     Please elaborate why this is nonsense.  Please read my reply to MAN on this subject.  I shared there what the Holy Spirit told us about sufferings. In Heaven, there is no suffering, at all, of any kind. Thus, since God is the God of Heaven, that would contradict the answer you have received.

     I agree with you that in Heaven, there is no more sufferings.  The Holy Spirit explained to us why this is so.  He even taught us a poem which we sing.  Again, please read my reply to MAN.  It includes part of the poem.      Here on earth, we will encounter numerous kinds of sufferings. That is why we need God.  That is why there is God who we can cry out to.  We have to cry out to Him in the midst of our sufferings.  We need Him.   So, please seek the answer from the real God, instead of trying to channel it out of spirits.

     Jesus said in John chapters 14, 15 and 16 that He would send the Holy Spirit.  He is here with us now speaking loud and clear.  He is doing what Jesus said He would do: reveal to us truth about God, tell us what will take place (to prophesy), will give glory to Jesus, speak about Jesus, lead us into all the truth, make us remember all that Jesus have told His apostles, etc.        I invite you to scrutinize what He said which I put in my website and please determine if He is truly the Holy Spirit.  What I have in my website are just some of what I heard and learned from Him.  There are still a lot that I have to transcribe and translate so that you will know His messages.  I just don’t have the time since I still have to work during the day.      God bless us always. In Christ, with love, Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ "If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!"  Rev. 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22 (Good News Bible)

Response:

Dear MAN and my Fellowmen, You said: We may need god because we suffer but i’ll believe in him when I suffer no more.

     You will suffer no more IF you enter the kingdom of God in Heaven. Here on earth, we will suffer.  It is a part of life.  There are many instances when we suffer.  We suffer from the death of a loved one.  We suffer from the inhumanity of our fellowmen to us.  We suffer when we lose our job or in dire financial difficulties.      Jesus demonstrated to us how to bear sufferings.  He is our model who showed us how to handle sufferings.  While Jesus was nailed on the cross, who did He cry out to in the midst of His sufferings?  To God the Father in Heaven!  He said, "Father, do not forsake Me."  This was explained to us by the Holy Spirit in His sermon found in my website below.  It is topic 14 of "Postings in Religious Newsgroups" and is entitled "Father, do not forsake Me."  Please have a read of the message of the Holy Spirit Himself.  It is just less than half a page long.      This world, according to the Holy Spirit, is like a sieve, a strainer.  God is straining us, sifting us.  Those who bear sufferings, and who hang on to God and cling to Him until the end, will be rewarded with their admission to Heaven in the afterlife.      The Holy Spirit taught us a poem in Filipino language which we sing also.  A part of that poem is as follows: "Sa dulo ng hirap, ginhawa ay kakamtan kung tayo’y magtitiis sa mundong ibabaw.  Atin ngang mararating ang kaluwalhatian at sa piling ng Diyos, kay tamis mabuhay."      Its translation to English is:  At the end of sufferings, relief (comfort, peace of mind, delight, contentment) will be attained if we bear (the sufferings) here on earth.  Eventually, we will reach Heaven .  How sweet it will be to live with God."      So what is the reward of sufferings if we are able to bear them? Relief and life with God in Heaven in the afterlife.  That is why we have to seek God, ask God, to help us in midst of our sufferings.  We cry out to Him and He is always ready to help us.  What He wants always for us is for our joy to be full.      God bless us always. In Christ, with love, Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ "If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!"  Rev. 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22 (Good News Bible)

Response:

Dear Dhadhathi and my Fellowmen,      Here, Jesus said "to all peoples everywhere".  Not only the Israelites.  That is why, if only all peoples of the world will accept Jesus as their savior and God and will obey His commandments, we would achieve peace in this world.  Jesus teaches us to love one another. LOVE.  Do other religions teach and emphasize the same?  And Jesus, since He is God Himself, is showing us the way how to get into His kingdom.  We are all invited.

 "The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture says to honor the  dog   more than the non-Jew." TALMUD:Ereget Raschi Erod, 22 30     "If you eat with a non-Jew it is the same as eating with a dog." TALMUD:  Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b    5:21 After going out of that place, Jesus went to the region of Tyre and   Sidon. 15:22 A20 Canaanite woman from that area came21 and cried out,22    "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is horribly    demon-possessed!" 15:23 But he did not answer her a word. Then23 his    disciples came24 and begged him,25 "Send her away, because she keeps on    crying out after us." 15:24 So26 he answered, "I was sent only to the lost    sheep of the house of Israel." 15:25 But she came27 and bowed down28 before    him and said,29 "Lord, help me!" 15:26 "It is not right30 to take the    children’s bread and throw it to the dogs,"31 he said.32 15:27 "Yes, Lord,"    she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’   table." 15:28 Then33 Jesus answered her, "Woman, your faith is great! Let     what you want be done for you." And her daughter was healed from that hour.    "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before    swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend     you." (Matthew 7:6 KJV    Remember, to the Jews, dogs were unclean animals. And Jesus was a jew. Under     that circumstances, would a GOD call anybody a dog?    Christianity as you practice is a delutional dream of Paul. Paul claimed the  Jesus told him to go to the gentiles.    Till his death, he never claimed to speak to all the people. (people as you  understand is different from what Jesus understood. As per jewish law, the     nonjews are not humans)    Jesus talked about the jews dispersed all over the world by the successive  invasions of israel by the invaders. That is what he means by nations (aka tribes of Israel). It is a twist of paul and later christians to mean all the people.    I dont care whether you live in your paulian dream called christianity or not. There are lot of deluded people in the world. Before you buy.

Response:

Dear Dhadhathi and my Fellowmen, I tell you why, because christians do not listen to Jesus. ** These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not – Matthew 10:5 *** Christians are the source of all problems and thus misery of the world. **

     From the Good News Bible, this is what Matthew 10 verse 5 until verse 8 states: (I am citing not only verse 5 to know more the context of what Jesus commanded His disciples.) These twelve men were sent out by Jesus with the following instructions: "Do not go to any Gentile territory or any Samaritan towns.  Instead, you are to go to those lost sheep, the people of Israel.  Go and preach, "The Kingdom of heaven is near!  Heal the sick, bring the dead back to life, heal those who suffer from dreaded skin-diseases, and drive out demons."      Jesus’ instruction to them was logical.  His ministry was just beginning so those around were the first to be ministered–the people of Israel who according to Jesus, are the lost sheep.  In addition, there were only 12 of them, so few to venture to faraway places.        In Matthew 28:18-20, Jesus said to them (there were many of them at this time): "I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Go, then, to all peoples everywhere and make them my disciples: baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to obey everything I have commanded you.  And I will be with you always, to the end of the age."        Here, Jesus said "to all peoples everywhere".  Not only the Israelites.  That is why, if only all peoples of the world will accept Jesus as their savior and God and will obey His commandments, we would achieve peace in this world.  Jesus teaches us to love one another. LOVE.  Do other religions teach and emphasize the same?  And Jesus, since He is God Himself, is showing us the way how to get into His kingdom.  We are all invited.      Let us not continue wearing the trousers (religion) that our parents gave us when we were still small. (This is from a parable of the Holy Spirit to us).  They may not be comfortable anymore.  Now that we are old enough and mature enough, let us use our intellect, our understanding, to search the truth.  Let us decide for ourselves who and what to believe.  It is our soul that is at stake.  This soul will live forever either in Heaven or in Hell.  So we should make a careful decision ourselves.      God bless us always. In Christ, with love, Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ "If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!"  Rev. 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22 (Good News Bible)

Response:

Dear Baruzzo and my Fellowmen, why so little time and consideration is given to the apocalyptic message? In Fatima, first of all, in Kibeho, in Garbandal and in Medjugorje. Why also the Vatican has changed the meaning of the third secret? "When will happen these things?" "When will be finished the strength of the saint people" Prophet Daniel thousands of years ago.

     If you would like to read the recent prophecies of the Holy Spirit, please visit my website below.  Those prophecies were revealed on October 19, 1979.  You may check yourself if those prophecies have already happened.        One of the prophecies is AIDS which the Holy Spirit named GOTACURAL–an incurable disease which would spread in epidemic proportion all over the world and which specialists of the medical profession will not find a cure.  Another is violent weather.  Still another is about nameless diseases, which we now hear like Mad Cow Disease, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Gulf War Syndrome, Ebola virus, etc.      Do you believe that the prophecies of Daniel thousands of years ago apply to our time now?  Or have they happened?  Or will happen hundreds of years from now yet?  We are not sure when they will happen.        On the other hand, the recent prophecies of the Holy Spirit are for today.  They occurred soon after He revealed them.  So who will you listen to?  John 16:13 tells us that the Holy Spirit "will tell us of things to come".  This means to prophesy.  Be glad that He is here with us and warning us so that we become prepared when the prophecies are fulfilled.  We will not become shocked and startled.        Thank you, Baruzzo, for your reply.      God bless us always. In Christ, with love, Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ "If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!"  Rev. 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22 (Good News Bible)

Response:

by Ralph Nielsen                      I tell you the truth, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son                      of Man coming in his kingdom (Matthew 16:28).                      Truly, I tell you, this generation will not pass away before all these things have taken place                      (Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30).                      So also, when you see these things happening: know that the kingdom of God is near. In truth I                      tell you, before this generation has passed away all will have taken place (Luke 21:31-32).                      For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the                      coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have died. For the Lord himself will descend from                      heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up                      in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will be with the Lord                      forever (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).                      I am coming soon! I am indeed coming soon! (Revelation 22:12, 20).                      The Gospel of Mark was written around the year 71, Matthew around 80, and Luke around the year                      90. The apostle Paul wrote his first letter to the Thessalonians – in Greece – around the year 50.                      Revelation was written around the year 90.                      This article was first typed in the year 1995, almost 2,000 years after Jesus and Paul made these                      promises. So, according to the Bible, they were both false prophets. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Dhadhathi and my Fellowmen, I tell you why, because christians do not listen to Jesus. ** These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not – Matthew 10:5 *** Christians are the source of all problems and thus misery of the world. **      From the Good News Bible, this is what Matthew 10 verse 5 until verse 8 states: (I am citing not only verse 5 to know more the context of what Jesus commanded His disciples.) These twelve men were sent out by Jesus with the following instructions: "Do not go to any Gentile territory or any Samaritan towns.  Instead, you are to go to those lost sheep, the people of Israel.  Go and preach, "The Kingdom of heaven is near!  Heal the sick, bring the dead back to life, heal those who suffer from dreaded skin-diseases, and drive out demons."      Jesus’ instruction to them was logical.  His ministry was just beginning so those around were the first to be ministered–the people of Israel who according to Jesus, are the lost sheep.  In addition, there were only 12 of them, so few to venture to faraway places.      In Matthew 28:18-20, Jesus said to them (there were many of them at this time): "I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Go, then, to all peoples everywhere and make them my disciples: baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to obey everything I have commanded you.  And I will be with you always, to the end of the age."      Here, Jesus said "to all peoples everywhere".  Not only the Israelites.  That is why, if only all peoples of the world will accept Jesus as their savior and God and will obey His commandments, we would achieve peace in this world.  Jesus teaches us to love one another. LOVE.  Do other religions teach and emphasize the same?  And Jesus, since He is God Himself, is showing us the way how to get into His kingdom.  We are all invited.      Let us not continue wearing the trousers (religion) that our parents gave us when we were still small. (This is from a parable of the Holy Spirit to us).  They may not be comfortable anymore.  Now that we are old enough and mature enough, let us use our intellect, our understanding, to search the truth.  Let us decide for ourselves who and what to believe.  It is our soul that is at stake.  This soul will live forever either in Heaven or in Hell.  So we should make a careful decision ourselves.      God bless us always. In Christ, with love, Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ "If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!"  Rev. 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22 (Good News Bible)

Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

                 BreakPoint with Charles Colson                  Commentary #001002 – 10/02/2000      Defending Our Right to Pray: A Not-So-Quiet Revolution For the past several days I’ve been talking about religious liberty and how our American system of government is deeply rooted in Christian principles.  I’ve also talked about the rise of practical atheism, the persecution of Christians around the world, and the importance of Christian influence in media and law. As I’ve pointed out over these days, in the past fifty years, the secular culture has been trying to silence believers. But Christians are now saying, "enough is enough," as the protests on high school campuses made clear. When told their right to pray was forbidden, thousands have defied the orders and openly prayed. When TIME magazine reported on this outbreak of Christian resistance, they called it a "not-so-quiet revolution." In communities all across America, citizens have rejected Court-imposed secularism. In Arkansas, for example, football fans left the bleachers and knelt in prayer with the athletes and cheerleaders at mid-field. In Tennessee, students formed a human chain around the field. And in towns like Forest City, North Carolina, fans tuned their portable radios to a local station to hear a pastor’s prayer before the game. But this kind of dissent doesn’t sit well with those who’d like to silence Christians. Steven Shapiro of the ACLU said he’s "very disappointed" with what’s been going on, and he warned that his group will be "watching what’s happening very closely." Well, from the looks of it, he’ll need a lot of watchdogs. But the sore head award goes to Barry Lynn, of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, who said the protests were like a well-known obscene gesture being made at the Court. A more sensible assessment came from Frank Deford of Sports Illustrated who said, "prayer in the American stadium is not an issue that will fade gently away."  You can’t stop Americans from standing up and praying any more than you can stop them from cheering the home team. For protesters, Deford said, being told not to pray before a game isn’t an extension of the ban on prayer in school. These games often involve the whole community, and banning prayer on the field is like banning everybody from praying, and that’s an idea that just won’t fly. He’s right about that. In all these issues, the courts and other institutions have overstepped their authority.  Praying for the safety of our kids isn’t a threat to anyone, and it’s not something the law can ban.  Customs like these are precisely what the religion clauses of the First Amendment were designed to protect. The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, not from it. And when government tries to suppress our liberties, we have a right to stand up and say no. But in all these instances, it’s important that we make our case thoughtfully and responsibly, bearing in mind that we’re not just citizens but followers of Christ. Violence, or rude, or even angry behavior is never appropriate; but, at the same time, failing to speak up when our basic freedoms are threatened would be just as wrong. As this series has shown, the challenges to religious freedom have never been greater, but there’s also never been a better time to demonstrate faith in action. Call us here at BreakPoint and learn about groups that are fighting for religious freedom. Learn the issues and be prepared to defend religious liberty with your neighbors. And, oh yes, if you are at a football game, stand up and pray. For product requests or to make a donation, please visit our website at http://www.breakpoint.org or call 1-800-995-8777. Copyright (c) 2000 Prison Fellowship Ministries.  Reprinted with permission. "BreakPoint with Chuck Colson" is a radio ministry of Prison Fellowship Ministries. —

Response:

Good evening Damian;         You have made some good points, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.  I hear the term religious freedom used a lot.  What if an Islamic or a Hindu wants to make a public prayer as well?  Will that person be permitted?         Christian influence on TV has had a checkered past, specifically in the area of finances.  Jokes about "Give me all your money!" didn’t originate with the IRS. Cheers, John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                  BreakPoint with Charles Colson                  Commentary #001002 – 10/02/2000      Defending Our Right to Pray: A Not-So-Quiet Revolution For the past several days I’ve been talking about religious liberty and how our American system of government is deeply rooted in Christian principles.  I’ve also talked about the rise of practical atheism, the persecution of Christians around the world, and the importance of Christian influence in media and law. As I’ve pointed out over these days, in the past fifty years, the secular culture has been trying to silence believers. But Christians are now saying, "enough is enough," as the protests on high school campuses made clear. When told their right to pray was forbidden, thousands have defied the orders and openly prayed. When TIME magazine reported on this outbreak of Christian resistance, they called it a "not-so-quiet revolution." In communities all across America, citizens have rejected Court-imposed secularism. In Arkansas, for example, football fans left the bleachers and knelt in prayer with the athletes and cheerleaders at mid-field. In Tennessee, students formed a human chain around the field. And in towns like Forest City, North Carolina, fans tuned their portable radios to a local station to hear a pastor’s prayer before the game. But this kind of dissent doesn’t sit well with those who’d like to silence Christians. Steven Shapiro of the ACLU said he’s "very disappointed" with what’s been going on, and he warned that his group will be "watching what’s happening very closely." Well, from the looks of it, he’ll need a lot of watchdogs. But the sore head award goes to Barry Lynn, of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, who said the protests were like a well-known obscene gesture being made at the Court. A more sensible assessment came from Frank Deford of Sports Illustrated who said, "prayer in the American stadium is not an issue that will fade gently away."  You can’t stop Americans from standing up and praying any more than you can stop them from cheering the home team. For protesters, Deford said, being told not to pray before a game isn’t an extension of the ban on prayer in school. These games often involve the whole community, and banning prayer on the field is like banning everybody from praying, and that’s an idea that just won’t fly. He’s right about that. In all these issues, the courts and other institutions have overstepped their authority.  Praying for the safety of our kids isn’t a threat to anyone, and it’s not something the law can ban.  Customs like these are precisely what the religion clauses of the First Amendment were designed to protect. The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, not from it. And when government tries to suppress our liberties, we have a right to stand up and say no. But in all these instances, it’s important that we make our case thoughtfully and responsibly, bearing in mind that we’re not just citizens but followers of Christ. Violence, or rude, or even angry behavior is never appropriate; but, at the same time, failing to speak up when our basic freedoms are threatened would be just as wrong. As this series has shown, the challenges to religious freedom have never been greater, but there’s also never been a better time to demonstrate faith in action. Call us here at BreakPoint and learn about groups that are fighting for religious freedom. Learn the issues and be prepared to defend religious liberty with your neighbors. And, oh yes, if you are at a football game, stand up and pray. For product requests or to make a donation, please visit our website at http://www.breakpoint.org or call 1-800-995-8777. Copyright (c) 2000 Prison Fellowship Ministries.  Reprinted with permission. "BreakPoint with Chuck Colson" is a radio ministry of Prison Fellowship Ministries. —

Response:

Gene I as a christian have never been intimidated, coerce, frighten, or inhibited by any one from obeying and performing the determinations of Jesus Christ in my life. Maybe that is because I know there is no christian nation and there never will be one. There is only the christian collective corporeal body of Jesus Christ called the church. All nations are part and parcel in this disordered world state of civilization ruled by its god the diabolic spirit of deception and death, called the Devil. The church is the greatest foreign mission this world has ever known, and the ministry is calling out the people that hear and are drawn to Christ through the gospel. We are in this world, but we are not part of it. The christians reside in the Kingdom of the dear Son. Real christians today, as yesterday, do not try to make a superficial show with prayer like Pharisees, and try to force Jesus Christ on any one , or try to dominate the government and the public school system. It means something to be a real christian. And that is why there is no christians in politics, or any military armies any where. If Jesus Christ belonged to the ROTC as a lad, and then joined the Roman army to kill and protect Rome; then I say you can do the same. And after the army he ran for the Roman senate to serve the people before he went into his ministry, then christians can do the same thing today. But you know he did not do any of these things, and neither can you as a christian. Diabolic Religious people are trying to capture the government today to force all Americans to conform to the law of God and their christianity. They want to take over the public school system, and convert mentally the children and young people to become part of the religious movement, and bring a so-called revival to restore America as a christian nation it never was. This is the rise of the "lamb-beast" in America that looked holy and religious, but when it spoke and acted, it was the dragon-Devil in disguise. America wake up before it is to late. <<< In article <Pine.LNX.4.04.10010031802130.22057- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                  BreakPoint with Charles Colson                  Commentary #001002 – 10/02/2000      Defending Our Right to Pray: A Not-So-Quiet Revolution For the past several days I’ve been talking about religious liberty and how our American system of government is deeply rooted in Christian principles.  I’ve also talked about the rise of practical atheism, the persecution of Christians around the world, and the importance of Christian influence in media and law. As I’ve pointed out over these days, in the past fifty years, the secular culture has been trying to silence believers. But Christians are now saying, "enough is enough," as the protests on high school campuses made clear. When told their right to pray was forbidden, thousands have defied the orders and openly prayed. When TIME magazine reported on this outbreak of Christian resistance, they called it a "not-so-quiet revolution." In communities all across America, citizens have rejected Court-imposed secularism. In Arkansas, for example, football fans left the bleachers and knelt in prayer with the athletes and cheerleaders at mid-field. In Tennessee, students formed a human chain around the field. And in towns like Forest City, North Carolina, fans tuned their portable radios to a local station to hear a pastor’s prayer before the game. But this kind of dissent doesn’t sit well with those who’d like to silence Christians. Steven Shapiro of the ACLU said he’s "very disappointed" with what’s been going on, and he warned that his group will be "watching what’s happening very closely." Well, from the looks of it, he’ll need a lot of watchdogs. But the sore head award goes to Barry Lynn, of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, who said the protests were like a well-known obscene gesture being made at the Court. A more sensible assessment came from Frank Deford of Sports Illustrated who said, "prayer in the American stadium is not an issue that will fade gently away."  You can’t stop Americans from standing up and praying any more than you can stop them from cheering the home team. For protesters, Deford said, being told not to pray before a game isn’t an extension of the ban on prayer in school. These games often involve the whole community, and banning prayer on the field is like banning everybody from praying, and that’s an idea that just won’t fly. He’s right about that. In all these issues, the courts and other institutions have overstepped their authority.  Praying for the safety of our kids isn’t a threat to anyone, and it’s not something the law can ban.  Customs like these are precisely what the religion clauses of the First Amendment were designed to protect. The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, not from it. And when government tries to suppress our liberties, we have a right to stand up and say no. But in all these instances, it’s important that we make our case thoughtfully and responsibly, bearing in mind that we’re not just citizens but followers of Christ. Violence, or rude, or even angry behavior is never appropriate; but, at the same time, failing to speak up when our basic freedoms are threatened would be just as wrong. As this series has shown, the challenges to religious freedom have never been greater, but there’s also never been a better time to demonstrate faith in action. Call us here at BreakPoint and learn about groups that are fighting for religious freedom. Learn the issues and be prepared to defend religious liberty with your neighbors. And, oh yes, if you are at a football game, stand up and pray. For product requests or to make a donation, please visit our website at http://www.breakpoint.org or call 1-800-995-8777. Copyright (c) 2000 Prison Fellowship Ministries.  Reprinted with permission. "BreakPoint with Chuck Colson" is a radio ministry of Prison Fellowship Ministries. —

http://www.unification.net — Gene Austin The Grace Of God In Truth <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/2490/index.html Before you buy.

Response:

Good evening Damian;    You have made some good points, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.  I hear the term religious freedom used a lot.  What if an Islamic or a Hindu wants to make a public prayer as well?  Will that person be permitted?

No, and that was the point of the Supreme Court case.  The "messanger" (the person who gave the prayer) was selected by majority vote.  The Roman Catholic and LDS family who brought this to court pointed out that only members of majority religion (IOW baptist) were allowed to give the "message" (prayer), and the specific prayer was sometimes offensive in its sectarian message. I notice that Chuck Colson did not address that particular issue here. snip Best regards, Charles dowis "Try to reason with a cat? I’m not sure that’s possible." Before you buy.

Response:

<snip  What if an Islamic or a Hindu wants to make a public prayer as well?  Will that person be permitted?

Why not, If about 50% or more of the stadium is Islamic, in an islamic community, they should not only have the right to pray, but I think they should have the obligation. Why can we not celebrate differences and if someone does something that you don’t agree with, just stand respectably for a couple of minutes and then join them when they are finished.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip  What if an Islamic or a Hindu wants to make a public prayer as well?  Will that person be permitted? Why not, If about 50% or more of the stadium is Islamic, in an islamic community, they should not only have the right to pray, but I think they should have the obligation. Why can we not celebrate differences and if someone does something that you don’t agree with, just stand respectably for a couple of minutes and then join them when they are finished.

I would think freedom to speak should cover this, and a minute or two, will not hurt anyone, then if a prayer is to a false God, they are praying, not you, and you can pray your prayer quietly while they pray out loud.   If their prayer is to a false idol or god, it is useless to start with, so to be respectable is to let them have their say.   When it is your turn you can pray to God and that should make a difference and these unbelievers would hear and see what your God can do.  Who knows maybe they like it, and find Jesus.   This is better then no public prayers.    There should still be rules that no one should disrespect others, even if they are in the wrong, a pray to help others see the truth, would be simple. I would be against written prayers, or book prayers, that are not from that persons heart, but his religion should not be used. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip  What if an Islamic or a Hindu wants to make a public prayer as well?  Will that person be permitted? Why not, If about 50% or more of the stadium is Islamic, in an islamic community, they should not only have the right to pray, but I think they should have the obligation. Why can we not celebrate differences and if someone does something that you don’t agree with, just stand respectably for a couple of minutes and then join them when they are finished. I would think freedom to speak should cover this, and a minute or two, will not hurt anyone, then if a prayer is to a false God, they are praying, not you, and you can pray your prayer quietly while they pray out loud.  

Why can’t they all do it silently?  If one can, they all can. If their prayer is to a false idol or god, it is useless to start with, so to be respectable is to let them have their say.   When it is your turn you can pray to God and that should make a difference and these unbelievers would hear and see what your God can do.  Who knows maybe they like it, and find Jesus.   This is better then no public prayers.    There should still be rules that no one should disrespect others, even if they are in the wrong, a pray to help others see the truth, would be simple. I would be against written prayers, or book prayers, that are not from that persons heart, but his religion should not be used.

Suppose the prayer of the majority was to a golden calf?  I don’t think you’d be so understanding then. Agkistrodon

Response:

Good morning Alcatel;         Well, if the freedom to publicly express one’s religious belief’s are paramount, I certainly agree that this is quite logical.  However, many Christians would object that this wouldn’t be fair.  For some reason, many of them interpret freedom of religion to mean that they have all of the advantages while others have none.  That isn’t freedom.  And as Copperhead suggested, if they can’t get along, then provide time for a silent prayer so they can pray or chew bubble gum. Cheers, John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip  What if an Islamic or a Hindu wants to make a public prayer as well?  Will that person be permitted? Why not, If about 50% or more of the stadium is Islamic, in an islamic community, they should not only have the right to pray, but I think they should have the obligation. Why can we not celebrate differences and if someone does something that you don’t agree with, just stand respectably for a couple of minutes and then join them when they are finished.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip  What if an Islamic or a Hindu wants to make a public prayer as well?  Will that person be permitted? Why not, If about 50% or more of the stadium is Islamic, in an islamic community, they should not only have the right to pray, but I think they should have the obligation. Why can we not celebrate differences and if someone does something that you don’t agree with, just stand respectably for a couple of minutes and then join them when they are finished. I would think freedom to speak should cover this, and a minute or two, will not hurt anyone, then if a prayer is to a false God, they are praying, not you, and you can pray your prayer quietly while they pray out loud. Why can’t they all do it silently?  If one can, they all can.

I have no problem with that, but some do. I would be against written prayers, or book prayers, that are not from that persons heart, but his religion should not be used. Suppose the prayer of the majority was to a golden calf?  I don’t think you’d be so understanding then.

Why would you think that? I do not live in the USA, on both sides of my enterance is a buddhist worship area, and I get the smoke from them burning their gifts to the dead, daily.   We are great friends, they do not put their candles on my steps and we live side by side.  I have my mark on the door way saying we love the Lord, and they have their red signs saying what they want.   I find when I pray for them they are humble and will lower their head in respect to my God. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Agkistrodon

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip  What if an Islamic or a Hindu wants to make a public prayer as well?  Will that person be permitted? Why not, If about 50% or more of the stadium is Islamic, in an islamic community, they should not only have the right to pray, but I think they should have the obligation. Why can we not celebrate differences and if someone does something that you don’t agree with, just stand respectably for a couple of minutes and then join them when they are finished. I would think freedom to speak should cover this, and a minute or two, will not hurt anyone, then if a prayer is to a false God, they are praying, not you, and you can pray your prayer quietly while they pray out loud. Why can’t they all do it silently?  If one can, they all can. I have no problem with that, but some do. I would be against written prayers, or book prayers, that are not from that persons heart, but his religion should not be used. Suppose the prayer of the majority was to a golden calf?  I don’t think you’d be so understanding then. Why would you think that? I do not live in the USA, on both sides of my enterance is a buddhist worship area, and I get the smoke from them burning their gifts to the dead, daily.   We are great friends, they do not put their candles on my steps and we live side by side.  I have my mark on the door way saying we love the Lord, and they have their red signs saying what they want.   I find when I pray for them they are humble and will lower their head in respect to my God.

But you are not talking about a religious performance at a state function, are you?   Agkistrodon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Suppose the prayer of the majority was to a golden calf?  I don’t think you’d be so understanding then. Why would you think that? I do not live in the USA, on both sides of my enterance is a buddhist worship area, and I get the smoke from them burning their gifts to the dead, daily.   We are great friends, they do not put their candles on my steps and we live side by side.  I have my mark on the door way saying we love the Lord, and they have their red signs saying what they want.   I find when I pray for them they are humble and will lower their head in respect to my God. But you are not talking about a religious performance at a state function, are you?

Any and all functions. Raymond – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Agkistrodon

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good morning Alcatel;    Well, if the freedom to publicly express one’s religious belief’s are paramount, I certainly agree that this is quite logical.  However, many Christians would object that this wouldn’t be fair.  For some reason, many of them interpret freedom of religion to mean that they have all of the advantages while others have none.  That isn’t freedom.  And as Copperhead suggested, if they can’t get along, then provide time for a silent prayer so they can pray or chew bubble gum. Cheers, John <snip  What if an Islamic or a Hindu wants to make a public prayer as well?  Will that person be permitted? Why not, If about 50% or more of the stadium is Islamic, in an islamic community, they should not only have the right to pray, but I think they should have the obligation. Why can we not celebrate differences and if someone does something that you don’t agree with, just stand respectably for a couple of minutes and then join them when they are finished.

I disagree with even the moment of silence business.  There’s an interesting case in Virginia right now, where schools hold a moment of silence to reflect or pray.  There’s some difficulty over what to do with students who believe it is an infringement of separation of church and state and who leave the classroom during the time. — Regards, Lee Paulson **In the beginning, there was soup, followed shortly by mitochondrial Eve. ** Before you buy.

Response:

Good morning Lee;         I’m unfamililar with the situation in Virginia.  Could you provide me with some more detail? Cheers, John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good morning Alcatel;       Well, if the freedom to publicly express one’s religious belief’s are paramount, I certainly agree that this is quite logical.  However, many Christians would object that this wouldn’t be fair.  For some reason, many of them interpret freedom of religion to mean that they have all of the advantages while others have none.  That isn’t freedom.  And as Copperhead suggested, if they can’t get along, then provide time for a silent prayer so they can pray or chew bubble gum. Cheers, John <snip  What if an Islamic or a Hindu wants to make a public prayer as well?  Will that person be permitted? Why not, If about 50% or more of the stadium is Islamic, in an islamic community, they should not only have the right to pray, but I think they should have the obligation. Why can we not celebrate differences and if someone does something that you don’t agree with, just stand respectably for a couple of minutes and then join them when they are finished. I disagree with even the moment of silence business.  There’s an interesting case in Virginia right now, where schools hold a moment of silence to reflect or pray.  There’s some difficulty over what to do with students who believe it is an infringement of separation of church and state and who leave the classroom during the time. — Regards, Lee Paulson **In the beginning, there was soup, followed shortly by mitochondrial Eve. ** Before you buy.

Response:

Good morning Lee;    I’m unfamililar with the situation in Virginia.  Could you provide me with some more detail? Cheers, John

This is a stretch of my poor brain, in part because I don’t live in Virginia.  Let me search the Washington Post.  If I recall correctly, schools have been mandated to observe a moment of silence at the beginning of the day.  There is prefatory language to the moment that says something to the effect of it’s for introspection or prayer. I’ll search the Post and see what I can come up with. — Regards, Lee Paulson **In the beginning, there was soup, followed shortly by mitochondrial Eve. ** Before you buy.

Response:

Good morning Lee;    I’m unfamililar with the situation in Virginia.  Could you provide me with some more detail? Cheers, John

Here’s the blurb from the Post archives.  I don’t have an account, so I can’t pull the entire article, but I’m sure you can find it somewhere on the web.  It’s evidently a commonwealth law.                     JUDGE HEARS DEBATE ON SCHOOL LAW;                     STUDENTS CHALLENGING VA. MINUTE OF                     SILENCE                     Article 4 of 31 found                     BROOKE A. MASTERS                     WASHINGTON POST STAFF WRITER                     Saturday, September 9, 2000 ; Page B01                     Section: Metro                     Word Count: 633                     Attorneys for 10 public school students sparred in federal court yesterday                     with Virginia’s solicitor general over whether the commonwealth’s new                     mandatory moment-of-silence law is simply a useful educational tool or                     an unconstitutional effort to force children to pray. — Regards, Lee Paulson **In the beginning, there was soup, followed shortly by mitochondrial Eve. ** Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good morning Lee;    I’m unfamililar with the situation in Virginia.  Could you provide me with some more detail? Cheers, John Good morning Alcatel;       Well, if the freedom to publicly express one’s religious

Here’s a better description: http://www.mcjonline.com/news/00/20000308d.htm — Regards, Lee Paulson **In the beginning, there was soup, followed shortly by mitochondrial Eve. ** Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip  What if an Islamic or a Hindu wants to make a public prayer as well?  Will that person be permitted? Why not, If about 50% or more of the stadium is Islamic, in an islamic community, they should not only have the right to pray, but I think they should have the obligation. Why can we not celebrate differences and if someone does something that you don’t agree with, just stand respectably for a couple of minutes and then join them when they are finished.

So you feel that members of a *minority* religions do not have a right to participate on public prayers. And that attitude is exactly why the Supreme Court ruled "student lead" paryers to be illegal.  Only members of the majority religion were invited to give the prayer, and their prayer were offensive to those of minority religions. As my momma taught me when I tried to grab too much cake "When you get piggy, you gets your hand slapped."  And that’s what happened to the majority religion when they got piggy.  They got their hand slapped, and cried abt religious freedom because they wanted the "freedom" to deny it to others. So sad. Best regards, Charles dowis "Try to reason with a cat? I’m not sure that’s possible." Before you buy.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip  What if an Islamic or a Hindu wants to make a public prayer as well?  Will that person be permitted? Why not, If about 50% or more of the stadium is Islamic, in an islamic community, they should not only have the right to pray, but I think they should have the obligation. Why can we not celebrate differences and if someone does something that you don’t agree with, just stand respectably for a couple of minutes and then join them when they are finished. So you feel that members of a *minority* religions do not have a right to participate on public prayers. And that attitude is exactly why the Supreme Court ruled "student lead" paryers to be illegal.  Only members of the majority religion were invited to give the prayer, and their prayer were offensive to those of minority religions. As my momma taught me when I tried to grab too much cake "When you get piggy, you gets your hand slapped."  And that’s what happened to the majority religion when they got piggy.  They got their hand slapped, and cried abt religious freedom because they wanted the "freedom" to deny it to others. So sad.

ALRIGHT, CHARLES!!!!!  YOU GOT A BIG ONE AND YOU GOT IT ON THE HEAD!! I’ll send you one of my Jell-O mo(u)lds as soon as they arrive. Agkistrodon

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                        Re: Defending Our Right to Pray   Organization: Deja.com – Before you buy.   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.religion.christian.pentecostal,          [3] alt.religion.mormon,          [4] alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s)   References:          [6] <snip  What if an Islamic or a Hindu wants to make a public prayer as well?  Will that person be permitted? Why not, If about 50% or more of the stadium is Islamic, in an islamic community, they should not only have the right to pray, but I think they should have the obligation. Why can we not celebrate differences and if someone does something that you don’t agree with, just stand respectably for a couple of minutes and then join them when they are finished.

*** well heck if all faiths could do their prayers and atheists could be excused from listening etc….then that would be great but on a practical level would that not take a long time? there are so many faiths out there and to give time for all would take a good chunk of time! Reverend Brenda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Best regards, Charles dowis "Try to reason with a cat? I’m not sure that’s possible." Before you buy.

Response:

If I recall correctly, schools have been mandated to observe a moment of silence at the beginning of the day.  There is prefatory language to the moment that says something to the effect of it’s for introspection or prayer.

I would beg to be corrected if I am incorrect about this, Lee, but since I do live in Virginia, I’ll try to explain this to the best of my ability.  If I am properly informed, the law calls only for a minute of silence at the beginning of each school day.  I believe that the language regarding prayer or introspection was stricken from the bill before it reached the Governor’s desk. If I may offer my opinion, as the godmother of 10 and the aunt of 4, I humbly submit that anything that causes children to be silent for one moment at the beginning of each day is a good thing.  If they choose to pray, then so be it. I went to public schools for 11 years and found time to pray several times during each day, including the Angelus.  I honestly don’t know if anyone else was aware that I was praying, except when I said Grace before lunch, or a Hail Mary before a track or cross-country meet. I do know that when I was in school, we said the Pledge of Allegiance before classes began every morning.  If a student’s religion did not permit him or her to say the Pledge, he or she was asked to remain silent while it was said.  It does not seem to me to be that much of a stretch to  have a moment of silence either before or after the Pledge for students to do as they please, so long as they do it in silence. I will also look this law up, and report back with what will hopefully be some clarification.  Anyone else who wishes to do so, may wish to check http://www.roanoketimes.com or http://www.richmondtimesdispatch.com; both of these are Virginia newspapers. Kelly

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip  What if an Islamic or a Hindu wants to make a public prayer as well?  Will that person be permitted? Why not, If about 50% or more of the stadium is Islamic, in an islamic community, they should not only have the right to pray, but I think they should have the obligation. Why can we not celebrate differences and if someone does something that you don’t agree with, just stand respectably for a couple of minutes and then join them when they are finished. So you feel that members of a *minority* religions do not have a right to participate on public prayers. And that attitude is exactly why the Supreme Court ruled "student lead" paryers to be illegal.  Only members of the majority religion were invited to give the prayer, and their prayer were offensive to those of minority religions. As my momma taught me when I tried to grab too much cake "When you get piggy, you gets your hand slapped."  And that’s what happened to the majority religion when they got piggy.  They got their hand slapped, and cried abt religious freedom because they wanted the "freedom" to deny it to others. So sad.

Indeed.  The topic of marriage and homosexuals comes to mind. -Winslow Best regards, Charles dowis "Try to reason with a cat? I’m not sure that’s possible." Before you buy.

Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Prayer does nothing but raise the hopes of someone who can’t achieve something that he/she reaches for.  The jew on the stick cult worshippers try over and over again to achieve some goal, but when they can’t achieve that desired result, they bend their knees, bow their head and say a worthless prayer to the jew on the stick. Does it work? NO…. Then why does it seem to help? The person who does not succeed the first time only tries harder after they pray.  The prayer did nothing.  It was worthless.  It was just a pipe-dream to a jew on the stick. So why did they succeed after prayer? They only decided to try harder to achieve the result.  They still fail, but eventually they see the way to do the task and they reach out for the result. When they need a job….they pray.  Do they then stop and wait for a job….HELL no, they go and find the job.  Suggestion: Next time you need a job….Pray for the job and sit at home and wait for that call. Don’t send resumes, don’t interview and don’t put in applications.   See if your prayers are answered.

I’m curious about what your job is, I’m betting you’re very wealthy, incredibly intelligent, extremely succesful and you’re dedicated to a career that betters mankind and the world we live in. Or maybe not. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When they want help for a sick person who is dying of a disease.  Does it help….No way.  Medical science and technology find cures everyday for the unknown diseases and most of the time they try some unapproved medical treatment to cure that person. Another thing is that the mind also cures a person when they are sick.  we humans only use a small part of our minds, but in reality, our minds work miracles everyday to keep us from disease and sickness.  Suggestion:  The next time a sick person has a disease, go pray to your jew gods and wait for the cure…..Don’t seek medical attention for the disease and see if your jew on the stick answers your call…. So why do they pray? They only want to find a way to make themselves feel more at ease.  They only want to think their jew gods care for them and want to help them out.

So why do you worship Satan? Does he do all these things for you? Do you think he wants to help you out? I realize that there is no real way to help you, you need to help yourself, I just think you’re a very sad person. I wish you could be happier. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hail Satan -The Emissary Join and learn about Satanism at: http://www.satanic.org.au http://churchofsatan.org

Response:

Prayer does nothing but raise the hopes of someone who can’t achieve something that he/she reaches for.

Seems to me that raising one’s hopes is not a bad thing…  and that often when hope is raised, or in some cases, reborn from the ashes of despair, then folks can indeed achieve things they had thought were impossible. For some, prayer works.  So why begrudge them? Others… buy ‘em Stephen Covey tapes… {VBG}

Response:

It helps me and has helped me.  Satan is too weak to honor prayers, that’s why praying doesn’t help you.  Try praying to Elohim!  You may be surprised.

You’ve fallen for satan’s troll.  Sounds like it DID help her. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Prayer does nothing but raise the hopes of someone who can’t achieve something that he/she reaches for.  The jew on the stick cult worshippers try over and over again to achieve some goal, but when they can’t achieve that desired result, they bend their knees, bow their head and say a worthless prayer to the jew on the stick. Does it work? NO…. Then why does it seem to help? The person who does not succeed the first time only tries harder after they pray.  The prayer did nothing.  It was worthless.  It was just a pipe-dream to a jew on the stick. So why did they succeed after prayer? They only decided to try harder to achieve the result.  They still fail, but eventually they see the way to do the task and they reach out for the result. When they need a job….they pray.  Do they then stop and wait for a job….HELL no, they go and find the job.  Suggestion: Next time you need a job….Pray for the job and sit at home and wait for that call. Don’t send resumes, don’t interview and don’t put in applications.   See if your prayers are answered. When they want help for a sick person who is dying of a disease.  Does it help….No way.  Medical science and technology find cures everyday for the unknown diseases and most of the time they try some unapproved medical treatment to cure that person. Another thing is that the mind also cures a person when they are sick.  we humans only use a small part of our minds, but in reality, our minds work miracles everyday to keep us from disease and sickness.  Suggestion:  The next time a sick person has a disease, go pray to your jew gods and wait for the cure…..Don’t seek medical attention for the disease and see if your jew on the stick answers your call…. So why do they pray? They only want to find a way to make themselves feel more at ease.  They only want to think their jew gods care for them and want to help them out. — Hail Satan -The Emissary Join and learn about Satanism at: http://www.satanic.org.au http://churchofsatan.org

Response:

It helps me and has helped me.  Satan is too weak to honor prayers, that’s why praying doesn’t help you.  Try praying to Elohim!  You may be surprised. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Prayer does nothing but raise the hopes of someone who can’t achieve something that he/she reaches for.  The jew on the stick cult worshippers try over and over again to achieve some goal, but when they can’t achieve that desired result, they bend their knees, bow their head and say a worthless prayer to the jew on the stick. Does it work? NO…. Then why does it seem to help? The person who does not succeed the first time only tries harder after they pray.  The prayer did nothing.  It was worthless.  It was just a pipe-dream to a jew on the stick. So why did they succeed after prayer? They only decided to try harder to achieve the result.  They still fail, but eventually they see the way to do the task and they reach out for the result. When they need a job….they pray.  Do they then stop and wait for a job….HELL no, they go and find the job.  Suggestion: Next time you need a job….Pray for the job and sit at home and wait for that call. Don’t send resumes, don’t interview and don’t put in applications.   See if your prayers are answered. When they want help for a sick person who is dying of a disease.  Does it help….No way.  Medical science and technology find cures everyday for the unknown diseases and most of the time they try some unapproved medical treatment to cure that person. Another thing is that the mind also cures a person when they are sick.  we humans only use a small part of our minds, but in reality, our minds work miracles everyday to keep us from disease and sickness.  Suggestion:  The next time a sick person has a disease, go pray to your jew gods and wait for the cure…..Don’t seek medical attention for the disease and see if your jew on the stick answers your call…. So why do they pray? They only want to find a way to make themselves feel more at ease.  They only want to think their jew gods care for them and want to help them out. — Hail Satan -The Emissary Join and learn about Satanism at: http://www.satanic.org.au http://churchofsatan.org

Response:

Prayer does nothing but raise the hopes of someone who can’t achieve something that he/she reaches for.

We’ll pray for you…

Response:

        Actually, the entire premise of this post – the premise that prayer does not work – is completely erroneous. The power of prayer has been demonstrated in several studies which have shown statistically significant correlations between prayer and outcomes.         Of course, the effectiveness of prayer is also mentionned in the Bible.         But it’s also worth noting that prayers of petition are only one form of prayer. Catholics also offer up, among others, intecessionary prayers, prayers of thanks, prayers to glorify God, prayers to maintain, strengthen or begin our personal relationship with Him.         Finally, it’s also worth noting that the perspective from which many people judge the effectiveness of prayer is limited to the physical reality which their senses can perceive – and God is not limited to that narrow definition of "reality". Perhaps the best example of that is Jesus Himself. Although it may not initially have seemed life-enhancing for Him to die on the cross, it was in a very real sense life-enhancing since it allowed every one of us to be forgiven our sins and, of course, Jesus later rose from the dead.         Take care – and God bless. James Risdon : Prayer does nothing but raise the hopes of someone who can’t achieve : something that he/she reaches for.  The jew on the stick cult worshippers : try over and over again to achieve some goal, but when they can’t achieve : that desired result, they bend their knees, bow their head and say a : worthless prayer to the jew on the stick. : Does it work? : NO…. : Then why does it seem to help? : The person who does not succeed the first time only tries harder after they : pray.  The prayer did nothing.  It was worthless.  It was just a pipe-dream : to a jew on the stick. : So why did they succeed after prayer? : They only decided to try harder to achieve the result.  They still fail, but : eventually they see the way to do the task and they reach out for the : result. : When they need a job….they pray.  Do they then stop and wait for a : job….HELL no, they go and find the job.  Suggestion: Next time you need a : job….Pray for the job and sit at home and wait for that call. Don’t send : resumes, don’t interview and don’t put in applications.   See if your : prayers are answered. : When they want help for a sick person who is dying of a disease.  Does it : help….No way.  Medical science and technology find cures everyday for the : unknown diseases and most of the time they try some unapproved medical : treatment to cure that person. Another thing is that the mind also cures a : person when they are sick.  we humans only use a small part of our minds, : but in reality, our minds work miracles everyday to keep us from disease and : sickness.  Suggestion:  The next time a sick person has a disease, go pray : to your jew gods and wait for the cure…..Don’t seek medical attention for : the disease and see if your jew on the stick answers your call…. : So why do they pray? : They only want to find a way to make themselves feel more at ease.  They : only want to think their jew gods care for them and want to help them out. : — : Hail Satan : -The Emissary : Join and learn about Satanism at: : http://www.satanic.org.au : http://churchofsatan.org

Response:

Prayer does nothing but raise the hopes of someone who can’t achieve something that he/she reaches for.  The jew on the stick cult worshippers try over and over again to achieve some goal, but when they can’t achieve that desired result, they bend their knees, bow their head and say a worthless prayer to the jew on the stick. Does it work? NO…. Then why does it seem to help? The person who does not succeed the first time only tries harder after they pray.  The prayer did nothing.  It was worthless.  It was just a pipe-dream to a jew on the stick. So why did they succeed after prayer? They only decided to try harder to achieve the result.  They still fail, but eventually they see the way to do the task and they reach out for the result. When they need a job….they pray.  Do they then stop and wait for a job….HELL no, they go and find the job.  Suggestion: Next time you need a job….Pray for the job and sit at home and wait for that call. Don’t send resumes, don’t interview and don’t put in applications.   See if your prayers are answered. When they want help for a sick person who is dying of a disease.  Does it help….No way.  Medical science and technology find cures everyday for the unknown diseases and most of the time they try some unapproved medical treatment to cure that person. Another thing is that the mind also cures a person when they are sick.  we humans only use a small part of our minds, but in reality, our minds work miracles everyday to keep us from disease and sickness.  Suggestion:  The next time a sick person has a disease, go pray to your jew gods and wait for the cure…..Don’t seek medical attention for the disease and see if your jew on the stick answers your call…. So why do they pray? They only want to find a way to make themselves feel more at ease.  They only want to think their jew gods care for them and want to help them out. — Hail Satan -The Emissary Join and learn about Satanism at: http://www.satanic.org.au http://churchofsatan.org

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Question:

says… Yesterday was one of those particularly rotten days. My car broke down on a dangerous connector between two freeways; when we towed it in, the mechanic looked at it with the dreamy eyes of one whose financial prayers had just been answered; clients seemed particularly uncooperative (meaning they refused to buy any of the homes I showed them), and one couple fell into such a dispute over which home to buy that they may instead elect to invest their funds in a matched set of high-priced divorce attorneys. That is what you get for being an ass kisser to the dead jew on the stick. True Satanists don’t have those problems, WE ENJOY LIFE AND ALL THE REWARDS TO A RICH LIFE.

And magical protection from accidents, no doubt. Its a wonder any of his followers ever die. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But when I got home, finally — in a rented car, of course — I found the the New Oxford Review had finally published my article on Catholic Social Teaching, the one they accepted a year ago. What a great way for any magazine to start the millenium (please, no Y2K jokes). Since the new millenium started just a few days ago, where is the loser you worship from afar…NO WHERE…. Those of you whose primary interest in life is advancing my literary career will march on down to your favorite newstand and buy a dozen copies. Or even take out a subscription. If they do not carry it, try to make a scene; a good Christian should not be above hysterics. Just like any xtain and ass- kisser of the dead jew on the stick to rant and carry on in a child like tantrum to try to get his/her way….

We’re just imitating your posts. — John C. M

Question:

In what countries do Muslims constitute the majority of the populations? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – by Br. David Pradarelli I came to Islam pretty much on my own. I was born and raised Roman Catholic, but I always had a deep fascination with the spiritualities of other cultures. My Journey started when I desired to have a relationship with my creator. I wanted to find my spirituality, and not the one I was born with. I spent some time in the Catholic religious order known as the Franciscans. I had many friends and I enjoyed prayer times, but it just seemed to relaxed in its faith, and there was, in my opinion, too much arrogance and hypocrisy. When I had returned back from the order into secular living again, I once again was searching for my way to reach God (Allah).  One night I was watching the news on television, and of course they were continuing their one-sided half-truth reports on Muslims (always in a negative light instead of balancing it by showing the positive side as well) with images of violence and terrorism. I decided long ago that the news media has no morals whatsoever and will trash anyone for that "juicy story", and I pretty much refused to believe anything they said. I decided to research Islam for myself and draw my own conclusions. What I found paled all the negative images that the satanic media spewed forth. I found a religion deep in love and spiritual truth, and constant God-mindfulness. What may be fanaticism to one person may be devotion to another. I picked up a small paperback Qur’an and began devouring everything I could. It opened my eyes to the wonder and mercy of ALLAH, and I found the fascination growing every day…it was all I could think about. No other religion including Catholicism impacted me in such a powerful way… I actually found myself in God-awareness 24 hours a day 7 days a week… each time I went to my five daily prayers, I went with anticipation…finally! What I have been searching for all of my life. I finally got enough courage to go to a mosque and profess the Shahadah before my Muslim brothers and sisters. I now am a practicing Muslim and I thank ALLAH for leading me to this place: Ashhahdu anna la ilaha ilallah wa Muhammadur rasul ALLAH! This means: "I believe in the oneness and totalness of ALLAH and that Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him) is the chosen prophet of ALLAH." I now also accept Jesus as no longer equal with ALLAH, but sent as Muhammad was sent to bring all of mankind to submission to the will of ALLAH! May all of mankind find the light and truth of ALLAH. "Whoever receives guidance, receives it for his own benefit; whoever goes astray does so to his own loss. No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another, nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent a messenger." (The Holy Quran, Al-Isra, 17:15) For Authentic information on Islam, please visit: Discover Islam:             http://www.discoverislam.com/ It is Truth:                     http://www.it-is-truth.org/ Be Convinced:               http://www.beconvinced.com/ Institute of Islamic Info:  http://www.iiie.net/ Islam City:                    http://www.islaam.com/ Islamic City:                  http://www.islamicity.com/ Directory of Sites:         http://www.islamworld.net/

Response:

by Br. David Pradarelli I came to Islam pretty much on my own. I was born and raised Roman Catholic, but I always had a deep fascination with the spiritualities of other cultures. My Journey started when I desired to have a relationship with my creator. I wanted to find my spirituality, and not the one I was born with. I spent some time in the Catholic religious order known as the Franciscans. I had many friends and I enjoyed prayer times, but it just seemed to relaxed in its faith, and there was, in my opinion, too much arrogance and hypocrisy. When I had returned back from the order into secular living again, I once again was searching for my way to reach God (Allah).  One night I was watching the news on television, and of course they were continuing their one-sided half-truth reports on Muslims (always in a negative light instead of balancing it by showing the positive side as well) with images of violence and terrorism. I decided long ago that the news media has no morals whatsoever and will trash anyone for that "juicy story", and I pretty much refused to believe anything they said. I decided to research Islam for myself and draw my own conclusions. What I found paled all the negative images that the satanic media spewed forth. I found a religion deep in love and spiritual truth, and constant God-mindfulness. What may be fanaticism to one person may be devotion to another. I picked up a small paperback Qur’an and began devouring everything I could. It opened my eyes to the wonder and mercy of ALLAH, and I found the fascination growing every day…it was all I could think about. No other religion including Catholicism impacted me in such a powerful way… I actually found myself in God-awareness 24 hours a day 7 days a week… each time I went to my five daily prayers, I went with anticipation…finally! What I have been searching for all of my life. I finally got enough courage to go to a mosque and profess the Shahadah before my Muslim brothers and sisters. I now am a practicing Muslim and I thank ALLAH for leading me to this place: Ashhahdu anna la ilaha ilallah wa Muhammadur rasul ALLAH! This means: "I believe in the oneness and totalness of ALLAH and that Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him) is the chosen prophet of ALLAH." I now also accept Jesus as no longer equal with ALLAH, but sent as Muhammad was sent to bring all of mankind to submission to the will of ALLAH! May all of mankind find the light and truth of ALLAH. "Whoever receives guidance, receives it for his own benefit; whoever goes astray does so to his own loss. No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another, nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent a messenger." (The Holy Quran, Al-Isra, 17:15) For Authentic information on Islam, please visit: Discover Islam:             http://www.discoverislam.com/ It is Truth:                     http://www.it-is-truth.org/ Be Convinced:               http://www.beconvinced.com/ Institute of Islamic Info:  http://www.iiie.net/ Islam City:                    http://www.islaam.com/ Islamic City:                  http://www.islamicity.com/ Directory of Sites:         http://www.islamworld.net/

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Question:

faith without works is dead — St. Paul in one of his letters

That’s James.

Response:

I bet people would not respond because they seem more interested in arguing about little things, but forgetting the "big picture".  I am sure that this is a tool that Satan uses against the children of God — "let me get them to argue about the little things that make no difference, because then I can’t continue to harm them while they’re busy squabbling among themselves about doctrine.  Why is the protestant church so divided?  A house divided against itself can not stand. Do you see my point? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jesus Himself was balanced.  He did not minister to the poor all the time though the poverty problem never was dealt with nearly completely.  The focus of Jesus was the spiritual poverty of the people though he did not ignore the physical poverty. Jesus worked allegedly as a carpenter with his father for the first 30 years of his life.  And Paul spent over 3 years in the desert just learning from the Lord after which he occupied himself ministery to the spiritual needs of the people.  The disciples were more interested in the spiritual needs of the people than their physical needs though the physical needs were cared for first. How can a man even hear the gospel if he is starving for food? But each person has his place in the purpose of God. In the culture of Jesus there was no welfare etc and the poor underwent severe detriment and were within arms reach.  The poor that exist in the USA for example are rich in comparison to the poor of Jesus’ day.  God is the soveriegn God and His arm is not too short that it cannot save.  Thus each man has a set of works prepared in advance for him to walk in Eph2.10. Jesus prayed to the Father saying, ‘ I thank you Father that i have finished the work that you gave me to do’  But there were still so many more people that were poor and so many that needed to hear the gospel.  How could Jesus say that He finished the work? It was revealed to me in a vision Would you believe me if i said I had a vision too.  All the people are sinful to one degree or another and all they can see are the faults of others and need to repent of their own sin ..that is the vision that I could have had. — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy. Nothing is a waste of time for our Lord works all things together for good for those that love Him and are called accoprding to His purpose Romans 8.28  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation? I wonder if any one is ‘worthy’ of salvation.  I thought that Jesus saved us in spite of ourselves.  Remember Peter who exalted himself and said ‘though all the rest deny you Lord I will never forsake you’ yet when tested he failed miserably.  I suggest (this is not from a vision but I think that it is a just application of scripture) that we take heed when you think we stand lest we fall 1 Cor.10.12   I bet no one responds to this one. Im just curious.  Why did you think or bet that no one would respond?  I’ll bet you cant answer this one(do  you get my point?) James 4.6 I am nothing and He is everything is the conclusion Ive come to after walking with Him for 14 years Hope this helps Helpu

Response:

Not mine.  I will die for my own sins which will then be forgiven. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?    I bet no one responds to this one. I will. I certainly am not worthy of salvation. I don’t think anyone is. Jesus died for the sins of all. — Michael John 3 16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Response:

It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?

The problem is that it’s a trick question.  Christians are practically forbidden from making a show about what they do for the poor and needy.  There is almost no way to answer your question without patting yourself on the back, and becoming puffed up with spiritual pride. Those who do the most usually talk about it the least.

Response:

: Jesus died for the sins of all.  One who is sending such a material to the Jewish forum is an immoral person. The nery existance of an immoral person proofs that Mesaya did not came yet.  As to the contence there is no reason to assume  that guy died for the sins rather than for cosin, tangents, squar-root, exponent or factorial . Bye

My apologies to you. I responded to the original post, and I did not notice what newsgroups the original poster had included. And Jesus DID come, 2,000 years ago.   — Michael John 3 16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Response:

hey you yo-yo I wasn’t talking to Jewish people, they obviously are not commanded by Jesus to heal the sick, minister to the poor, etc.  It would be nice if they did, but they are not commanded to.  I was referring to hypocritical Christians who are so quick to jump down everyone’s throat about doctrine and dogma, yet do not themselves heed Christ’s commandment to "Sell all you have and give to the poor", or "Judge not lest ye be judged", and tons of other commandments from the mouth of Jesus that Christians blatantly ignore, while choosing to dig up archaic references in Leviticus law concerning homosexuality, impurity, etc. — Judaic law by which Christians are not bound!  Clearly, not being able to see the forest for the trees is something endemic to these newsgroups. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Jesus died for the sins of all. One who is sending such a material to the Jewish forum is an immoral person. The nery existance of an immoral person proofs that Mesaya did not came yet. As to the contence there is no reason to assume  that guy died for the sins rather than for cosin, tangents, squar-root, exponent or factorial . Bye

Response:

very nice, I’m glad that you feel you are doing the will of God.  If 80% of the people in the country who profess to be Christians were actually doing the work of Christ, then I would not being seeing the streets of cities strewn with poor, sick, homeless people.

Bet we would. "The poor you will always have with you" Sound familiar? Jesus commanded his followers to "sell all you have and give to the poor",

No, he said this in two instances. Once (most noteable as it appears in three os the gospels) was to the rich young ruler and not to His followers. The other instance, recorded in Luke(12) speaks more to pointing out where your treasure is. To focus on eternal consequences. Be careful how literally you read "sell all you have and give to the poor", as you can take it out of context. Consider the following passage as it relates to "sell all you have and give to the poor" Matt 26 6 While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, 7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. 8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked. 9 "This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor." 10 Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11 The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. to minister to the sick, to help those in need.  How is it that there are so many sick, so many needy, so many poor still exist in this country, given that there are so many Christians out there who are supposed to be doing the will of Christ?  Bet you can’t answer that question.

Doing with will of Christ is not determined by the existence (or lack there of) of sick, needy and poor. Mike

Response:

We can do nothing to prove it.  Jeusus Christ, Slavation, and the Word of God Prove it all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?    I bet no one responds to this one.

Response:

I will take you up on your challenge, and reply.  I spend time in newsgroups because until recently I was unable to do very much for myself due to a "degenerative" muscle condition.  However, after many prayers God saw fit to heal me.  Now as I am getting my strength back it is my intention to tell people how great and awesome is our God. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?    I bet no one responds to this one.

Response:

It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?    I bet no one responds to this one.

If all that was revealed in a vision, then your glasses were obviously fogged up. Maybe some of us spend time in here as well as doing our "Christian duty" to mankind. What I do is my business and not anyone elses. As none are worthy, none of us can "Prove" ourselves Holy or worthy, that must be a figment of your imagination, not a result of a vision. Contractor. PS that is a reply so you lost bet as well.

Response:

very nice, I’m glad that you feel you are doing the will of God.  If 80% of the people in the country who profess to be Christians were actually doing the work of Christ, then I would not being seeing the streets of cities strewn with poor, sick, homeless people.  Jesus commanded his followers to "sell all you have and give to the poor", to minister to the sick, to help those in need.  How is it that there are so many sick, so many needy, so many poor still exist in this country, given that there are so many Christians out there who are supposed to be doing the will of Christ?  Bet you can’t answer that question.

That is a very fair point.  But it is also true that religious organizations are about the ONLY ones feeding the hungry AT ALL.  In your town, go volunteer at a soup kitchen.  You may be surprised to find that the ONLY ones doing that are Christians. It’s easy to say that Christians aren’t doing enough (and they aren’t – REALLY following Christ is something VERY few do, in my opinion, and those few often become canonized), but those who complain should put their money where there mouth is, and give us a hand.  My Cathedral has a line of 400 people at the soup kitchen every Sunday morning.  You want to come down and help?

Response:

very nice, I’m glad that you feel you are doing the will of God.  If 80% of the people in the country who profess to be Christians were actually doing the work of Christ, then I would not being seeing the streets of cities strewn with poor, sick, homeless people.  Jesus commanded his followers to "sell all you have and give to the poor", to minister to the sick, to help those in need.  How is it that there are so many sick, so many needy, so many poor still exist in this country, given that there are so many Christians out there who are supposed to be doing the will of Christ?  Bet you can’t answer that question. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ——Original Message—– Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christia n .pentecostal,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,soc.culture.jewish I will take you up on your challenge, and reply.  I spend time in newsgroups because until recently I was unable to do very much for myself due to a "degenerative" muscle condition.  However, after many prayers God saw fit to heal me.  Now as I am getting my strength back it is my intention to tell people how great and awesome is our God. It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?    I bet no one responds to this one. I will take you up on your challenge, and reply.  I spend time in newsgroups because until recently I was unable to do very much for myself due to a "degenerative" muscle condition.  However, after many prayers God saw fit to heal me.  Now as I am getting my strength back it is my intention to tell people how great and awesome is our God. It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?    I bet no one responds to this one.

Response:

: Jesus died for the sins of all.  One who is sending such a material to the Jewish forum is an immoral person. The nery existance of an immoral person proofs that Mesaya did not came yet.  As to the contence there is no reason to assume  that guy died for the sins rather than for cosin, tangents, squar-root, exponent or factorial . Bye

Response:

It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?    I bet no one responds to this one. Christian don’t bet<s.. just a joke.. I have been wonder that myself.. Don’t people have grass to mow or dishes to wash.. oh.. and a God to serve..  Is it possible to prove to a group of people that you are worthy and holy of salvation?..  I really doubt that.   Also I’m with you on the talking thing.. Too many people talking about who they are and what they believe and really not doing a thing for God.. The Bible says:.. Matt. 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who "does" the will of My Father who is in heaven. Matt. 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation "producing" the fruit of it.

Response:

I know because Jesus told me in a vision, didn’t you read the beginning. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to know how you know that none of these people ever minister to the poor sick and needy. It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?    I bet no one responds to this one.

Response:

faith without works is dead — St. Paul in one of his letters – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We can do nothing to prove it.  Jeusus Christ, Slavation, and the Word of God Prove it all. It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?    I bet no one responds to this one.

Response:

It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.

I have a plan to provide newsgroups for the needy.  Then we won’t look so ostentatious.  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?    I bet no one responds to this one.

Remove the QQQ and I’ll get back to you.

Response:

It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.

Vision (umm hmmm) or no, the question still stands on Scriptural warrant alone. I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?  

Most of us are private people, who do all that alms stuff in private, ya know. Bible says so.  But don’t be fooled … the people in here do lots and lots of that Matt 25 stuff. I bet no one responds to this one.

I’ll bet you’re wrong.  I’ll also bet you knew that before you said it. Dave

Response:

Greetings, It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.

But we are. Many of the people that come to this newsgroup and ask questions are poor in spirit.  They come because they need help. I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?

Matthew 6:1-7         [1] "Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen         by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who         is in heaven. [2] "Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet         before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the         streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they         have received their reward. [3] But when you give alms, do not let         your left hand know what your right hand is doing,  [4] so that         your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret         will reward you.  [5] "And when you pray, you must not be like         the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues         and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly,         I say to you, they have received their reward.  [6] But when you         pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your         Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will         reward you.  [7] "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases         as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their         many words. I bet no one responds to this one.

How much do we win? May God lead us to a fuller understanding of His truth and may His peace go with you. — 1 Peter 3:8-15 [8] Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind. [9] Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing.  [10] For "He that would love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking guile; [11] let him turn away from evil and do right; let him seek peace and pursue it. [12] For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those that do evil." [13] Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is right? [14] But even if you do suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,  [15] but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;

Response:

: It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the : newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.  I would : like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this : group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?    I bet no one : responds to this one.         Well, you’re right. I’m not "worthy of salvation" at all. I am saved by the Grace of God who died for my sins in the Person of Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour. I am not saved by any works of my own but by the Blood of the Lamb.         I do, however, try to do works as a way of showing my love for God, for faith without works is dead and I don’t want my faith to be dead.         God bless. James Risdon

Response:

It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?    I bet no one responds to this one.

    As Jesus says in John 12:8, "The poor are always with us."     I’ll bet that most of the people who respond to these ng’s     perform both corporal and spiritual acts of mercy.     I also do not claim to be worthy of salvation.  I do, though,     have the hope of salvation through God’s grace.

Response:

It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?    I bet no one responds to this one.

Response:

I’d like to know how you know that none of these people ever minister to the poor sick and needy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?    I bet no one responds to this one.

Response:

It was revealed to me in a vision — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.  I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?    I bet no one responds to this one.

I will. I certainly am not worthy of salvation. I don’t think anyone is. Jesus died for the sins of all. — Michael John 3 16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Response:

Jesus Himself was balanced.  He did not minister to the poor all the time though the poverty problem never was dealt with nearly completely.  The focus of Jesus was the spiritual poverty of the people though he did not ignore the physical poverty. Jesus worked allegedly as a carpenter with his father for the first 30 years of his life.  And Paul spent over 3 years in the desert just learning from the Lord after which he occupied himself ministery to the spiritual needs of the people.  The disciples were more interested in the spiritual needs of the people than their physical needs though the physical needs were cared for first. How can a man even hear the gospel if he is starving for food? But each person has his place in the purpose of God.  In the culture of Jesus there was no welfare etc and the poor underwent severe detriment and were within arms reach.  The poor that exist in the USA for example are rich in comparison to the poor of Jesus’ day.  God is the soveriegn God and His arm is not too short that it cannot save.  Thus each man has a set of works prepared in advance for him to walk in Eph2.10. Jesus prayed to the Father saying, ‘ I thank you Father that i have finished the work that you gave me to do’  But there were still so many more people that were poor and so many that needed to hear the gospel.  How could Jesus say that He finished the work? It was revealed to me in a vision

Would you believe me if i said I had a vision too.  All the people are sinful to one degree or another and all they can see are the faults of others and need to repent of their own sin ..that is the vision that I could have had. — people are wasting too much time in the newsgroups — instead of ministering to the poor, sick and needy.

Nothing is a waste of time for our Lord works all things together for good for those that love Him and are called accoprding to His purpose Romans 8.28   I would like to know what do you DO (not say or believe) that can prove to this group that you really are holy and worthy of salvation?

I wonder if any one is ‘worthy’ of salvation.  I thought that Jesus saved us in spite of ourselves.  Remember Peter who exalted himself and said ‘though all the rest deny you Lord I will never forsake you’ yet when tested he failed miserably.  I suggest (this is not from a vision but I think that it is a just application of scripture) that we take heed when you think we stand lest we fall 1 Cor.10.12    I bet no one responds to this one.

Im just curious.  Why did you think or bet that no one would respond?  I’ll bet you cant answer this one(do  you get my point?) James 4.6 I am nothing and He is everything is the conclusion Ive come to after walking with Him for 14 years Hope this helps Helpu

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I took the catholic teaching teach about Saints interceding for us in prayer to the Lord, I was lead to the passage in Hebrew which (and I writing from memory) states we have a great crowd of witness’s in heaven urging us on. Having said that the official teaching as I understand it (and I am open to correction here) is not that we pray to Saints, or that Saints answer our prayers, but rather we ask the Saints to pray with us to the Lord, as in intercession. The point being that as Catholics we believe that we have Saints and Guardian Angels who are there to help intercede for us.   For me this is one of the benefits of being a Catholic. Peace in Jesus

Have you never read that Jesus is the only intercessor? Steve <snip

– "But grandfather, are the gods not just?" "Oh no, child. What would become of us if they were?" Till We Have Faces_ by C.S. Lewis

Response:

Greetings, The Cyberworld was set aflame when Steve Corban said: When I took the catholic teaching teach about Saints interceding for us in prayer to the Lord, I was lead to the passage in Hebrew which (and I writing from memory) states we have a great crowd of witness’s in heaven urging us on. You’re memory is pretty good, although I think its a "cloud" of witnesses. Or maybe a crowded cloud. I don’t know.

Hebrews 12:1         [1] Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of         witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which         clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race         that is set before us, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having said that the official teaching as I understand it (and I am open to correction here) is not that we pray to Saints, or that Saints answer our prayers, but rather we ask the Saints to pray with us to the Lord, as in intercession. As Christians, we take the word of God seriously. Hence, we really don’t take death seriously. No one really dies, they are just re-born to a new Life in Christ. And they are with us. The love us as much as they always did in life, only moreso. And like any real lovers, they desire to help us. The point being that as Catholics we believe that we have Saints and Guardian Angels who are there to help intercede for us.   For me this is one of the benefits of being a Catholic.

May God lead us to a fuller understanding of His truth and may His peace go with you. [As a courtesy, this was both posted and emailed.] — 1 Peter 3:8-15 [8] Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind. [9] Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing.  [10] For "He that would love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking guile; [11] let him turn away from evil and do right; let him seek peace and pursue it. [12] For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those that do evil." [13] Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is right? [14] But even if you do suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,  [15] but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;

Response:

thank you St. Jude for prayers answered!!! More superstition?You really believe that Jude answers prayer or even hears prayer? I would check to see who it is that has been intercepting your prayers. I’m sure it’s not Jude and it certainly isn’t God.

You sound like an atheist CB, what’s funny is that you can label other’s fantasies as superstition but fail to see your own as such. XXIII IDIOT, n.             A member of a large and powerful tribe whose             influence in human affairs has always been dominant             and controlling. The Idiot’s activity is not confined to             any special field of thought or action, but "pervades             and regulates the whole." He has the last word in             everything; his decision is unappealable. He sets the             fashions and opinion of taste, dictates the limitations             of speech and circumscribes conduct with a             dead-line.             Ambrose Bierce

Response:

alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, let’s see if they are worth reading: To St. Jude, and all the saints in Heaven, and to Mary the Mother of God and Queen of heaven, as well as all members of this list, please pray for our brother CB. Enlighten his mind and lift his heart. Free him from all hatred and bigotry. We ask this in Jesus name. (Everybody say AMEN!)

Amen!  If you’re going to feed the troll, that’s the best thing to feed him…. mr. zoom — ===zooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom      Edward "Mr. Zoom" Curtis  ICQ # 9628448 Author of the "Handicapped Encounter Christ" webpage          http://welcome.to/encounter-christ   Please include this sig when replying by e-mail.

Response:

<snipped everything so John M

Question:

<snip I am a bmom from the closed adoption system. I am at a loss to understand how a bmom can keep seeing her child.. But I would think legitimate grief work.. and also therapy.. so you can discuss your feelings with someone that is not connected with the adoption.. Jackie C

Thanks Jackie for your reply. I know Open Adoption is very new to people and it is hard to understand. I am a very emotional person and if Open Adoption wasn’t around, I don’t think adoption would have been for me. I carried a child with me for nine months and then to have her taken away from me and to not see her until the minimum age of 18 was something I could not bear. So putting myself in your shoes, I could not have done what you did. When I hear a baby cry, I do not think of my daughter because I have seen her grow up and she is not a baby. When I see a 3 yr old, I think of her. I will open my eyes to how things are for you if you can see how things are for me. As for therapy, I am and have been in it since the day I found out I was pregnant. Open Adoption is new and a lot of people cannot understand what I did. So the only good form of therapy for me is talking to the Adoptive Mother. Christine

Response:

<snip I just subscribed to this newsgroup yesterday.  I was struck by the similarities in your story to mine, inadvertantly however.   <snip   The program you went through sounds wonderful. Perhaps we could institute something like that among us, make it more ceremonial.

It WAS wonderful! For the first transfer after the hospital stay, it was me placing my daughter in the Acouples’ arms. They cried, I cried, everyone cried (but my daughter because she was asleep and I later learned she can sleep through anything). They stayed in a hotel for 10 days while I pondered if I could live without my daughter after seeing, hearing and feeling her. But during this trial time I was allow visits. After the ten days were up, we talked to my priest (I am Roman Catholic) and we had a little service. We read passages, we sang songs and we used candles in this event. Like a wedding, we had one big candle, two small ones and a medium sized candle. I lit my candle from the big candle while holding my daughter and having my family support me by touching me, and the Acouple lit theirs while touching each other. Together we lit the medium candle which represented my daughter. Then I placed her in their arms and again we cried. It was wonderful. After the service we went back to my house for desserts and they went home. It was bitter sweetness…I will never forget it. I can’t imagine how hard this has been on you.  The bmom of Melissa and Alicia said once to me "You probably think I am a horrible mother."  I replied to her that a horrible mother would think only of herself and not give her children the opportunity to grow up in a stable home.  Either one of you could have opted to abort these babies.  We love the girls so much, as I am sure the afamily that has your daughter does.  Both of you made the right decision, and I think with time, the pain will lessen.

I am making the goals I had for myself, before being pregnant, happen. I am in university studying Business Computing. I have a wonderful and caring supportive boyfriend and I still live at home for right now. When I am ready for life to hit, I will ‘go with the flow’. Then was not the right time, so I adjusted. I am prolife, abortion was never an option and that’s all I’ll say about that. I know I did the right decision and later my daughter will know that. The pain will lessen and that is something I am working on. <snip You’ll be in my prayers, and I will let you know how things progress, if you’re interested.

        I am! Thanks for your support in this new way of adopting. Christine

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   Oh, I do not have to feel this yet as I have only been in this cycle for 3 years now. I will try not to think about it, but if I do feel myself slipping, I will seek help.

What I am learning.. Is And this about grief work.. My mom died last year.. And I have something to work with.. Something to weep over and around.. I have images.. not ghost images memories.. But my lost child.. nothing.. I grieve a shadow.. Jackie C

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<snip That is grief anger.. I am talking about the deep deep anger.. that comes years later.. when you see your children that you got to keep.. walk their first step.. say their first words.. then.. the anger surfaces..

        Oh, I do not have to feel this yet as I have only been in this cycle for 3 years now. I will try not to think about it, but if I do feel myself slipping, I will seek help. I dont understand this way of yours But I guess I did not have a good experience with adoption..

        We all learn and we must all open our eyes to new information. Adoption is hard to relate to because it is all feelings and emotions involved. We cannot see eye to eye, but I do appreciate your input. Thanks for caring Jackie. Christine

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         I feel like I know you already.  I hope my Mom is proud of me. I am struggling with university and my GPA is not very high. Dealing with everything sometimes gets me down really bad. That’s why I joined this newsgroup. I think that my daughter is immersing herself in work and school to avoid thinking about her daughter.  And what is even weirder, is that she and the bfather still have a relationship!  He is in the Navy and when he was home on leave in September, they got married.  When this semester of school is over, she plans to join him in California and continue going to school out there.  How is that for odd! And their bdaughter will stay with the adoptive family here.  My daughter and her husband (bfather of the baby!) act like this is very normal!  I find it exceedingly odd!         I have always trusted my choice. The only hard part is dealing with it and trying to move on with life being a deep feeler that I am makes it a wee bit harder. Crying, talking, pictures and poetry are my therapy most times. I am like you, a "deep feeler". I still cry about once a week missing my bgranddaughter.  I haven’t seen her since she was three days old.  My daughter and her husband have seen her a few times.  But now they say that they are ready to let go and think it is best for them and the baby that they not see each other anymore.  I asked my daughter if I could see the baby in her place, she said she would check on it and get back to me.           I think the not knowing would have driven me mad. I like to be ontop of things and know what is going on with everything, not just about where and how my daughter is. Knowing that she is fine and loved gives me one less thing to worry about.         Closed adoption is something that has always been and fits for some people and their needs. But people like your daughter and I, it did You have a lot more contact with your bchild than my daughter does, though.  We know the aparents, the amother works with my son-in-law’s aunt.  But my daughter and son-in-law have chosen not to see the baby anymore.  I just hope that doesn’t mean I will never be able to see her again until she’s grown.  Also, I have been reading all the posts in here and it has made me realize that when Maggie (my bgranddaughter) grows up, she may hate us.  I never really thought about that before. I guess I will have to learn to deal with that possibility.         By the way, do you address yourself as your daughter child’s grandmother and do you address her as your granddaughter? Well,I really only talk about her to my aunt, and I call her my granddaughter.  As far as I am concerned, she is my granddaughter.  After all, I didn’t make the decision to give her up.  Everyone has two sets of grandparents–and with divorce so common now, lots of kids are used to having more than two sets! I really don’t know if the aparents would ever agree to letting her call me Grandma…..I don’t even know if I will get to see her again.  But I consider her my eldest granddaughter and that is that!!! lol  Maggie is 2 yrs old now.  I also have a 6mo old granddaughter by my son that I get to see all the time. (What fun!)

Thanks for listening, Christine.  Write again soon. I’d love to read some of your poetry, also. Your cyber-friend, Cindy

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Dear Jackie,         Anger is not something you feel when you trust what you did was right.

        I disagree with this statement. I think anger is a very individual emotion…and I know that even tho I felt I was doing the absolute best for my daughter when I surrendered her to a closed adoption, I WAS angry. I STILL  am angry. I trust  what I did was right, but that does not mean I cannot feel anger also.         I am angry at the unfairness of the entire situation. I’m angry that the bfather did not feel the same pain I did. I’m angry at the laws that enabled him to walk away from the entire situation, (tho admittedly I was at fault for not pressing legal charges against him). I’m angry that I sacrificed my life with my child, even tho I know it was in her best interest.          Even all these years later, with a loving marriage of 20 years with a man I love more today than I did when we first married…two happy and healthy teenagers and a succesfull career I never would have dreamed I could attain, I am still angry. I think it’s only natural. My dad once told me that everything happens for a reason…that the true test of a person’s character is shown in how they  handle the challenges that life hands them. I can not see a time in my life when I am NOT angry over being handed that particular challenge. I also think that anger can be a positive emotion. My anger was/is the driving force behind some of my most challenging and difficult decisions. It has been my incentive to act, rather than react, to some of the most difficult situations I have faced since that time I surrendered. I guess you could say that the anger has empowered me in ways I never would have imagined possible. My anger certainly does not cast doubts on my decision to surrender my daugher, not at all. —Tribe

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   Jackie, this is a very tough time of year for those who have felt loss like we have. Just keep in mind that you will get thru it. And that you have a friend here that is wishing for the best for you.—-Tribe

Thanks tribe I think anger.. real anger.. is so healthy.. And I think I am finally accessing it.. Not the kind of anger where I act out.. and go and strangle the woman that has my records in Miami.. Cause she is a nice lady and just doing her stupid job.. Or those women that are trying to stop progress in Oregon.. Standing in front of the adoptees saying.. I am not a second class citizen.. and I have a right.. My anger goes to my dad.. Who was never ever there for me.. At this moment.. Jackie C

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   Anger is not something you feel when you trust what you did was right. How are new bMoms or the ones in open adoption not allowed to feel anger? If you ask me, I do not feel anger.

If you do not like what is going on.. If it is not the all is wonderful scenario… And life changes..People are not perfect.. You may feel angry.. If, one day… Your daughter says to you.."That to talk to you will hurt my soul."   What will you do.. ? And I have talked to a grown adoptee that was relinquished because her bmom wanted to finish collage.. She said this.. "To talk to my bmom will hurt my soul." She, in my opinion, was upset that the reason, written in her file.. was that her mom wanted to finish her education.. I felt anger once in my adoption cycle, the day the Acouple held my daughter for the first time. They were holding something of mine yet, I wanted them too. The anger then left and I felt better as they cried because they knew this was hurting me.

That is grief anger.. I am talking about the deep deep anger.. that comes years later.. when you see your children that you got to keep.. walk their first step.. say their first words.. then.. the anger surfaces.. I love them so much because they always think of me and how everything in the cycle affects me. That is why I don’t think or feel they will ever cut me out of my daughter’s life. They made a bond with me too when they adopted my daughter. This bond will take more than (if I were to ever feel, which I don’t) anger to break it.

Know this You have a right to your anger, as the years go by…. You dont have to tell them this.. You can have it on your own.. I dont understand this way of yours But I guess I did not have a good experience with adoption.. I had a very bad one.. Jackie C

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As for therapy, I am and have been in it since the day I found out I was pregnant. Open Adoption is new and a lot of people cannot understand what I did. So the only good form of therapy for me is talking to the Adoptive Mother. Christine

I wish you well Christine.. Jackie C

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: I am a Bmother and I am having : a difficult time with my healing process. I read a bunch of the replies in this thread and it sounds like you are doing just fine in the healing process.  Healing isn’t always easy, as you know, and it seems like you are well on your way. : loving couple through Open Adoption here in Manitoba. This is something : new in Canada and (to my knowledge) is practiced only in Manitoba and : Alberta. Actually, most provinces have open adoption.  I’m from BC and we’ve had open adoptions for a long time.  Now I live in Nova Scotian they have open adoptions too. : I miss her a lot and carry her pictures around. Does this mean I regret my : choice because I don’t feel I do. I don’t think so.  It means that you will always love this child.  I found my bmom’s family a couple years ago after she had died.  I wanted a picture of her from about the time when I was born so I took a picture out of the family photo album.  When I did, a picture of me was hidden behind it.  She had kept it hidden there all her life.  I’ve heard similar stories of bmoms who keep pictures of their babies hidden under their mattresses forever.  I think this means you’re normal. : Christine : (BMom) Thanks for writing to a.a.  Good luck. — Chris

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I think it is really neat that you shared my post with your mom, It helps…..

        My Mom is not yet ready to talk yet and the Internet is too new for her, but I will keep her posted. I’m sure your mother is very proud of you.  My daughter also gets excellent grades and is a joy to me.  I admire her (and you).

        I feel like I know you already.  I hope my Mom is proud of me. I am struggling with university and my GPA is not very high. Dealing with everything sometimes gets me down really bad. That’s why I joined this newsgroup. My daughter has had extensive counseling and has a very healthy attitude about her choice.  I talk with a trusted friend (my aunt) about it.  

        I have always trusted my choice. The only hard part is dealing with it and trying to move on with life being a deep feeler that I am makes it a wee bit harder. Crying, talking, pictures and poetry are my therapy most times. I know exactly what you mean.  My granddaughter’s aparents are very

special people.  I can’t imagine what it would have been like in the times of closed adoption where you trust an agency to choose and never have any follow-up.  That would have been horrible, not knowing.         I think the not knowing would have driven me mad. I like to be ontop of things and know what is going on with everything, not just about where and how my daughter is. Knowing that she is fine and loved gives me one less thing to worry about.         Closed adoption is something that has always been and fits for some people and their needs. But people like your daughter and I, it did not. I always keep an open mind about it.         By the way, do you address yourself as your daughter child’s grandmother and do you address her as your granddaughter? Or was that so I would know who you were talking about? I hope to share these posts with her soon. She works two jobs and goes to college, but hopefully I can catch her this weekend.

        WOW! She’s a busy woman. I hope we can talk more. I would also like to ask your mom somethings:  Does she have any other grandchildren yet? (I have one.)

I’ll answer for now: no other grandchildren. She considers herself a grandmother but not to my daughter. Just like I consider myself a Mother, but not to my daughter. Does she wonder whether your birth daughter will understand when she grows up?  

My daughter knows that she came from Christine’s tummy. She knows my Mom and the rest of my family by their first names, no aunts, Moms, cousins etc. My daughter WILL understand because the Acouple and I have talked about it and they want my daughter to know me and my family for the rest of her life. When she is older she will understand more but we will always be in her life. Does she get to see her at all?

The Acouple is visiting us this Saturday for the whole day (they live outside the city from us). A whole day! My family does see her however I visit them more as I am making the stronger bond with my daughter. My Mom sees pictures and sees her 2 a year. My Mom is very content in seeing my daughter and is happier seeing me with my daughter. Always, Christine

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Christine – We are Catholic as well.  I will speak to my priest about your ceremony, and see if perhaps he can recommend something similar that can be done.

        We used the Easter Candle. I have a copy of the booklet we used if you wish I could type it out for you. It was really beautiful. I can even spend some of the poetry I write. I love writing and found it very helpful when I thought I would go mad. I realize that I don’t know you at all, but I cannot help but be very proud of you, and of your maturity.  I am 29, and I know for a fact that when I was 20, I would have never been able to handle a situation such as this as gracefully and selflessly.  Your daughter is very lucky, both to have a loving environment from her afamily, and to have your genes!

        If I could I would hug you <CyberHug!! Thanks. Hearing that makes me stronger. I know what I did was hard and was not selfish, but I never denied myself to feel pain. I have always been mature for my age being the eldest of two younger sisters and having strick parents. My daughter knows who I am and everytime I talk with the Acouple we joke about how many things about her are hereditary and how many are environment. So far, I’m getting the lower end in a very joking way. All the "good" qualities they claim as their own input in her life. For example, I’m responsible for her burping, her vanity, her farting, her non-stop babble, her off note singing voice but most importantly, her long eyelashes and her big blue eyes that make her get away with murder. (She looks EXACTLY like me.) I’ll keep you posted, as I mentioned.  Any other information or help you can give me on how to be supportive of Melissa’s BMom would be extremely helpful.

        I’m here to help Kate because that and some other reasons are why I joined this newsgroup and posted my story as soon as possible. God Bless you in your journey. Christine

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HI Cindy,         Thanks for sharing with me your thoughts. I shared your reply with my Mother. My Mother is having a difficult time too dealing with all this. When she sees my daughter or pictures of her, she sees me. My daughter and I look exactly alike and I think she wishes I would have parented but I knew I loved my daughter too much that I couldn’t allow this. I think it is really neat that you shared my post with your mom,

It helps…..         I was able to finish my High School with honours and a scholarship and have been in university for three years now from Education to now taking Business Computing. I am going to be successful in my life and do not regret anything I have done. I’m sure your mother is very proud of you.  My daughter also gets

excellent grades and is a joy to me.  I admire her (and you). I have been in counseling and I suggest it to people who are in this cycle of adoption. The pain is too hard and if you ignore it, it will come back to hurt you later. My daughter has had extensive counseling and has a very healthy

attitude about her choice.  I talk with a trusted friend (my aunt) about it.           I love the adoptive parents so much and they love me and I guess that makes this whole situation so much easier to deal with, regradless, I still feel pain. I know exactly what you mean.  My granddaughter’s aparents are very special people.  I can’t imagine what it would have been like in the times of closed adoption where you trust an agency to choose and never

have any follow-up.  That would have been horrible, not knowing.         I hope your daughter gets to read these comments and know she nor you are alone in this. I hope to share these posts with her soon. She works two jobs and

goes to college, but hopefully I can catch her this weekend.         Thanks for all you kind words and a new friend, Christine I hope we can talk more. I would also like to ask your mom

somethings:  Does she have any other grandchildren yet? (I have one.) Does she wonder whether your birth daughter will understand when she grows up?  Does she get to see her at all? From your new ng friend, Cindy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – welcome back Jackie! I have been very busy but the few times I have read the posts in the past week I had not seen you. Great to see you back! —Tribe Hey tribe My life is going down the toilet at the moment.. And I can feel some anger here.. Anger.. New bmoms.. or the ones in an open adoption.. I believe are not allowed this very important emotion. Not allowed.. I have seen it posted here in the past.. that A bparent, had better not get angry in an open adoption.. cause you can be cut off in seconds.. So anger is a no no.. And when we stuff our anger.. I believe this is a life changing decision giving a child up.. And the pretend that goes on.. when a woman chooses the *potential* aparents.. and they are in the birthing chamber.. And we see the potential amom breast feeding the child.. "with a little help" And all is well and all things are well.. Only where is the anger? Jackie C

Your question and your reservations are exactly why I am not convinced that open adoption is any better than closed…just different. For myself persoally, I KNOW I would bury my anger, hide it from the prospective aparent…just to be polite. (I have always had the tendancy to say nothing when saying anything would hurt another. A bad trait, to be sure, but it’s mine). Toss in the vulnerability of a confused pregnant teen looking for help for her child and you have a disaster in the making. Open or closed, there is evidently NO WAY to deny that the woman who surrenders a child to another will be in pain. How that pain is dealt with is what is important for the woman going thru it. From my own experience, talking about it and listening to others who have been in the same position has added innumerable benefits to my own mental well being.         Jackie, this is a very tough time of year for those who have felt loss like we have. Just keep in mind that you will get thru it. And that you have a friend here that is wishing for the best for you.—-Tribe

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Christine – We are Catholic as well.  I will speak to my priest about your ceremony, and see if perhaps he can recommend something similar that can be done. I realize that I don’t know you at all, but I cannot help but be very proud of you, and of your maturity.  I am 29, and I know for a fact that when I was 20, I would have never been able to handle a situation such as this as gracefully and selflessly.  Your daughter is very lucky, both to have a loving environment from her afamily, and to have your genes! I’ll keep you posted, as I mentioned.  Any other information or help you can give me on how to be supportive of Melissa’s BMom would be extremely helpful. Kate

Response:

Dear Jackie,         Anger is not something you feel when you trust what you did was right. How are new bMoms or the ones in open adoption not allowed to feel anger? If you ask me, I do not feel anger. I felt anger once in my adoption cycle, the day the Acouple held my daughter for the first time. They were holding something of mine yet, I wanted them too. The anger then left and I felt better as they cried because they knew this was hurting me. I love them so much because they always think of me and how everything in the cycle affects me. That is why I don’t think or feel they will ever cut me out of my daughter’s life. They made a bond with me too when they adopted my daughter. This bond will take more than (if I were to ever feel, which I don’t) anger to break it. Christine <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A bparent, had better not get angry in an open adoption.. cause you can be cut off in seconds.. So anger is a no no.. And when we stuff our anger..

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<snip Hi,    I’m also a bmom…involved in a closed adoption over 20 years ago. Jackie’s right, don’t hold it in. You need to seek out someone to listen to you whether it be in therapy with a trusted counselor or with a good friend who will not simply agree with you to quiet you. It is very damaging to hold inside those feelings of pain and loss. And there’s no need to anymore, not like there  was when I surrendered my daughter. That was a different time, (Gawd that makes me feels soooooo old!)…but it is a different atmosphere for you now. The stigma is not as apparent or as strong as it was for bmoms like me in the 60’s-early 70’s. Get some help with it, don’t procrastinate!

        Thanks, I am getting help to deal with the emotions and the pain, but as I told Jackie, the Adoptive Mother is the only person who knows what I am going through and she has been my ‘help’. Christine

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HI Cindy,         Thanks for sharing with me your thoughts. I shared your reply with my Mother. My Mother is having a difficult time too dealing with all this. When she sees my daughter or pictures of her, she sees me. My daughter and I look exactly alike and I think she wishes I would have parented but I knew I loved my daughter too much that I couldn’t allow this.         I was able to finish my High School with honours and a scholarship and have been in university for three years now from Education to now taking Business Computing. I am going to be successful in my life and do not regret anything I have done. I have been in counseling and I suggest it to people who are in this cycle of adoption. The pain is too hard and if you ignore it, it will come back to hurt you later.         I love the adoptive parents so much and they love me and I guess that makes this whole situation so much easier to deal with, regradless, I still feel pain.         I hope your daughter gets to read these comments and know she nor you are alone in this.         Thanks for all you kind words and a new friend, Christine Hi! I am a bgrandma. I also joined this newsgroup recently in hopes

of exchanging ideas with someone just like you.  My daughter also did an open adoption. We know the couple that has her baby and they are wonderful people. I know that my daughter’s decision to give the baby up was a very mature and responsible thing to do, even though it has been very hard for me to accept.  I know what you mean about the longing and the missing.  Sometimes I just wish so much that I could hold my granddaughter…but I know in my heart she is better off with her adoptive parents.  My daughter was 17 when she had her baby,too. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope we can talk more. Nice meeting you. Cindy

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welcome back Jackie! I have been very busy but the few times I have read the posts in the past week I had not seen you. Great to see you back! —Tribe

Hey tribe My life is going down the toilet at the moment.. And I can feel some anger here.. Anger.. New bmoms.. or the ones in an open adoption.. I believe are not allowed this very important emotion. Not allowed.. I have seen it posted here in the past.. that A bparent, had better not get angry in an open adoption.. cause you can be cut off in seconds.. So anger is a no no.. And when we stuff our anger.. I believe this is a life changing decision giving a child up.. And the pretend that goes on.. when a woman chooses the *potential* aparents.. and they are in the birthing chamber.. And we see the potential amom breast feeding the child.. "with a little help" And all is well and all things are well.. Only where is the anger? Jackie C

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Is there anyone who can help me or guide me to releave myself of this pain I feel when I don’t see my daughter. I go through mood swings if it is longer than a few months between visits. Is this normal for the first few years?

Legitimate grief work.. When we feel the emotions, we see them, and let them travel thru us.. Do not.. stuff them.. is my recommendation.. You have suffered a loss.. I am a bmom from the closed adoption system. I am at a loss to understand how a bmom can keep seeing her child.. But I would think legitimate grief work.. and also therapy.. so you can discuss your feelings with someone that is not connected with the adoption.. Jackie C

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HI. I joined this newsgroup just recently in hopes to hear stories from the circle of Adoptees, Bparents and Aparents. I am a Bmother and I am having a difficult time with my healing process. My daughter will be 3 years old in a few weeks and I am only 20 years old. I placed my daughter with a loving couple through Open Adoption here in Manitoba.

Dear Christine – I just subscribed to this newsgroup yesterday.  I was struck by the similarities in your story to mine, inadvertantly however.  My husband and I are caring for, and in the early process of adopting a 17 month old baby who has a 3 year old sister that lives with her grandmother.  Their mother is 20 and cannot care for them.  She is going through a divorce, and although she has gone back and forth with regards to giving up the older child, she remains certain that she wants us to have Melissa, the baby.  I have known the bmom all her life.  Her mom is my mom’s best friend from high school. She is really torn by this decision, but we will always keep her part of Melissa’s life, and be sure that Melissa and Alicia (the sister) grow up knowing one another.  The program you went through sounds wonderful. Perhaps we could institute something like that among us, make it more ceremonial. I can’t imagine how hard this has been on you.  The bmom of Melissa and Alicia said once to me "You probably think I am a horrible mother."  I replied to her that a horrible mother would think only of herself and not give her children the opportunity to grow up in a stable home.  Either one of you could have opted to abort these babies.  We love the girls so much, as I am sure the afamily that has your daughter does.  Both of you made the right decision, and I think with time, the pain will lessen. You’ll be in my prayers, and I will let you know how things progress, if you’re interested. Reply to kbuckley at primary dot com or to the ng

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HI. I joined this newsgroup just recently in hopes to hear stories from the circle of Adoptees, Bparents and Aparents. I am a Bmother and I am having a difficult time with my healing process. My daughter will be 3 years old in a few weeks and I am only 20 years old. I placed my daughter with a loving couple through Open Adoption here in Manitoba. This is something new in Canada and (to my knowledge) is practiced only in Manitoba and Alberta. I have stayed in constant contact with the Aparents. We met before my daughter was born and started our life-long bond by going shopping. I liked the idea of Open Adoption as I was given a lot of control over this very difficult choice. I picked the parents, and together we helped pick a name. I got to spend my time with my baby after she was born and only once released from the hospital was she then placed in the Aparents care for the duration of 10 days. This was done in a ceremonial way where I got to place my daughter in their hands symbolizing that this was done out of my own free will. During this 10 day care time, I was given the opportunity to visit to be sure of my choice and after the 10 days we again went through another ceremonial transfer where they were now able to take their daughter home with them. During the first year, I visited them once a month. During the second and third year I have visited them 3-5 times a year. The Aparents and I have a very special loving bond between one another and due to my visits, my daughter knows that I am a very special person. The Amother and I are both very emotional, feeling people and we feel each other and are there for each other. She nor I could have ever gone through a closed adoption because even now, we still wonder what the other is thinking. I love the way Open Adoption works. Has anyone been through a Open Adoption for longer than I have? I want to know if this is a good thing to stay in my daughter’s life? I don’t ever want to be called Mom, but I can I still call my daughter ‘mine’? Is Open Adoption harder on the families or easier? I feel I have been blessed with two amazing people who love and care for my daughter as much as I do. I loved my daughter to know I couldn’t care for her the way I wanted to care for her when I was pregnant being only 17 at the time. I miss her a lot and carry her pictures around. Does this mean I regret my choice because I don’t feel I do. My heart aches for her, but I don’t spend my time with her when I do get to see her because I spend it with her Amother. I love the Amother and she loves me and we help each other out to help deal with our feelings. Is there anyone who can help me or guide me to releave myself of this pain I feel when I don’t see my daughter. I go through mood swings if it is longer than a few months between visits. Is this normal for the first few years? Christine (BMom) Or Reply to NG                 *  School seeks to get you   *                 *   ready for examination;   *                 * life gives you the finals. *

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Christine, Welcome to alt.adoption.  Thanks for sharing your story.  I’m pleased to hear that things in general are working out for all concerned. It’s wonderful that open adoption is working for you and your child. Additionally, I’m glad to hear of the special bond you have with the adoptive parents.  I hope they will continue to support you.   I hope that the times in between visits get easier on you.  Sorry, I have no true advice to give. I will keep all of you in my prayers.

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I loved my daughter to know I couldn’t care for her the way I wanted to care for her when I was pregnant being only 17 at the time. Hi! I am a bgrandma. I also joined this newsgroup recently in hopes of exchanging ideas with someone just like you.  My daughter also did an open adoption.  We know the couple that has her baby and they are wonderful people.  I know that my daughter’s decision to give the baby up was a very mature and responsible thing to do, even though it has been very hard for me to accept.  I know what you mean about the longing and the missing.  Sometimes I just wish so much that I could hold my granddaughter…but I know in my heart she is better off with her adoptive parents.  My daughter was 17 when she had her baby,too.

I hope we can talk more. Nice meeting you. Cindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there anyone who can help me or guide me to releave myself of this pain I feel when I don’t see my daughter. I go through mood swings if it is longer than a few months between visits. Is this normal for the first few years? Legitimate grief work.. When we feel the emotions, we see them, and let them travel thru us.. Do not.. stuff them.. is my recommendation.. You have suffered a loss.. I am a bmom from the closed adoption system. I am at a loss to understand how a bmom can keep seeing her child.. But I would think legitimate grief work.. and also therapy.. so you can discuss your feelings with someone that is not connected with the adoption.. Jackie C

Hi,    I’m also a bmom…involved in a closed adoption over 20 years ago. Jackie’s right, don’t hold it in. You need to seek out someone to listen to you whether it be in therapy with a trusted counselor or with a good friend who will not simply agree with you to quiet you. It is very damaging to hold inside those feelings of pain and loss. And there’s no need to anymore, not like there  was when I surrendered my daughter. That was a different time, (Gawd that makes me feels soooooo old!)…but it is a different atmosphere for you now. The stigma is not as apparent or as strong as it was for bmoms like me in the 60’s-early 70’s. Get some help with it, don’t procrastinate! BTW, welcome back Jackie! I have been very busy but the few times I have read the posts in the past week I had not seen you. Great to see you back! —Tribe

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – are you one of those "cattle-tick’s" that i’ve heard about, the one’s that leave out the most important part’s of the bible to suit themselve’s….. for god’s sake john, if you are going to dedicate your life to something, then make sure it is something worth while, else you might just as well dive into "wordly thing’s" head first and enjoy all that the world has to offer, though, if you are willing to dedicate your life to aim toward the lord god of creation, then do it, put down your rosarie’s and mary’s and get stuck into the word of god, the "living word", run and find a spirit filled person and ask to be baptised with full immersion and ask the lord to fill you with the holy ghost. you will then be on the road to eternal life, and even better, the chance to meet your brother jesus and your father the living bead’s,……                              pi’……

Funny, I have never ben taught to pray TO a rosary or worship Mary. Yet, I am Catholic…I must have been absent the day they taught us that in church.  First, we don’t pray to the rosary, it is simply an aid to prayer – something that reminds us to fucus on God kinda like those "WWJD" things only more traditional.  Mary is not an object of worship!  She is part of our family – our mother – and should be loved greatly.  When a Catholic says "pray" they don’t mean the same thing as when a Protestant says it.           At the time of the apostles, Mary was still on earth; therefore it was not possible or necessary to pray to her.  If you wanted to ask something of her, you just walked up to her and asked her.  Remember, Christ performed his first miracle when Mary interceded on behalf of the host of the wedding feast in Cana.  (John 2:1-11) Thus, Mary served as a mediator between her Divine Son and the common man.

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   If you would like to receive the contemporary messages of Our Lady,    please drop me a line and I will put you on her mailing list…    God bless you    John…:) —    [P]  /   o<<<<< "PRAY THE HOLY ROSARY" <<<<<o    [F]  / — [[[R]]] —  I extend to you who is reading this .sig the  – [[[A]]] —   /  [A]       "SPECIAL BLESSING" of the "QUEEN OF PEACE"     /  [S]      / [Y]    o<<<<<"Our Lady of Medjugorje"<<<<<o    / [T]

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snipped    If you would like to receive the contemporary messages of Our Lady,    please drop me a line and I will put you on her mailing list…

snipped The BVM has gone electronic?  I’m astounded! MJD

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are you one of those "cattle-tick’s" that i’ve heard about, the one’s that leave out the most important part’s of the bible to suit themselve’s….. for god’s sake john, if you are going to dedicate your life to something, then make sure it is something worth while, else you might just as well dive into "wordly thing’s" head first and enjoy all that the world has to offer, though, if you are willing to dedicate your life to aim toward the lord god of creation, then do it, put down your rosarie’s and mary’s and get stuck into the word of god, the "living word", run and find a spirit filled person and ask to be baptised with full immersion and ask the lord to fill you with the holy ghost. you will then be on the road to eternal life, and even better, the chance to meet your brother jesus and your father the living bead’s,……                               pi’……

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: are you one of those "cattle-tick’s" that i’ve heard about, the one’s that : leave out the most important part’s of the bible to suit themselve’s….. : for god’s sake john, if you are going to dedicate your life to something, : then make sure it is something worth while, else you might just as well dive : into "wordly thing’s" head first and enjoy all that the world has to offer, : though, if you are willing to dedicate your life to aim toward the lord god : of creation, then do it, put down your rosarie’s and mary’s and get stuck : into the word of god, the "living word", run and find a spirit filled person : and ask to be baptised with full immersion and ask the lord to fill you with : the holy ghost. you will then be on the road to eternal life, and even : better, the chance to meet your brother jesus and your father the living : bead’s,…… :                               pi’…… Hi pi, apparently you know little of the Roman Catholic Religion which gave you YOUR bible, I know there are many things in the Bible that Jesus said that you do not accept which we do. I’ll tell you one thing…the Rosary of the blessed Virgin Mary is about the life of Christ with prayers and meditation. Mary is Jesus’ Mother and therefore our Mother also, otherwise why do you call Jesus your Brother if Mary is not your Mother? Never belittle Mary, if honor is bestowed upon the Mother of God, Mary, it is indirectly honoring Jesus who honors His Mother as He commands us to honor our mothers and fathers. Show disrespect for Mary and you show disrespect for her Son Jesus. Mary will ‘always’ lead you to her Son Jesus without fail. If you had the love of Jesus as does Mary, you would be a Saint. God bless John…:) —    [P]  /   o<<<<< "PRAY THE HOLY ROSARY" <<<<<o    [F]  / — [[[R]]] —  I extend to you who is reading this .sig the  – [[[A]]] —   /  [A]       "SPECIAL BLESSING" of the "QUEEN OF PEACE"     /  [S]      / [Y]    o<<<<<"Our Lady of Medjugorje"<<<<<o    / [T]

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