Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Look in any encyclopedia and you will find that Rome is known as the city of seven      hills, or seven mountains, and Vatican City is located in the city of Rome. These  seven hills are the Capitoline, Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, Celian (Coelian),  Aventine and Palatine. According to the map at the web link I posted it shows the following Capitoline is East of the Tiber Quirinal is East of the Tiber Viminal is East of the Tiber Esquiline is East of the Tiber Celian (Coelian) [spelled Caelian on the map] is East of the Tiber Aventine is East of the Tiber Palatine is East of the Tiber The Vatican is WEST of the Tiber.

  Rocko resp:   My apologies  I have so many posts that lost track of what i said.  here is the facts: " Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads           are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.  Look in any encyclopedia and you will find that Rome is known as the city of seven      hills, or seven mountains, and Vatican City is located in the city of Rome. These      seven hills are the Capitoline, Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, Celian (Coelian),      Aventine and Palatine. Rome is indeed the city of seven mountains and Vatican city is located inside o fRome.  So Rome (which is where the vatican is located) is the city of seven hills.  And Rome is geographically proven to be seated on these hills.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -anus -a -um adjl suf 1. from common nouns: urbanus *of* the city; 2. from place names: Romanus from or *of* Rome, Roman; 3. from personal names: Claudi-anus *of* Claudius, Claudian. Well, Michael, on your web page, you say: "You will discover that the word vatic = prophetic (of prophecy), anus = of, mons = mountain, and collis = hill." This is incorrect: ‘anus’ is ~not~ a word that means ‘of’ in latin.  The inflected suffix ‘-ano-’ forms an adjective of locality; hence "Vaticanus" or "Romanus".  But the latin adjectival form ‘Vaticanus’ does ~NOT~ mean what you want it to mean.  The latin word for ‘prophetic’ is ‘vaticinus’, and the word for "of prophecy" is ‘vaticinii’, the genitive of ‘vaticinium’.

Pliny mentions the Vaticanus Ager (HN 3, 54). Varro tried to find the origin of the name, and assertes that there had been a Deus Vaticanus, who was the protector of the lands and inspirer of prophetic powers. His name was supposedly derived from vaticinium, and ultimately from vagire (ap. A. Gell. 16.17, 1-2). The name was extended to the present area of the Vatican at least as early as under Caligula or Nero, when their circus (where St Peter was crucified) was known as Circus Vaticanus. Later scholars have not found any support for a Deus Vaticanus, and a favoured explanation is that it comes from the name of a lost Etruscan settlement (probably Vatica or Vaticum). Either way, the choice of name has nothing to do with the Church. The name is from pagan times, and it was used about the area today known as the Vatican at a time when there was a circus in which Christians where martyred on the site. [snip] Chris Nyborg

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Pliny mentions the Vaticanus Ager (HN 3, 54).

Thanks Chris.  This is the sort of information that one can sink one’s teeth inoto. Dave

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Your a big fan of the X-Files arn’t ya Rocko.  Did ya see the one where they add up all those roman numbers to form 666 …ohhhh scary.

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Your a big fan of the X-Files arn’t ya Rocko.  Did ya see the one where they add up all those roman numbers to form 666 …ohhhh scary.

Rocko resp: Try getting your butt away from the TV and start reading the bible.  maybe then you wouldnt be a good pollyanna catholic that blindely follows what the church says rather then what Jesus and his prophets say.

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Since Mr. Scheifler was kind enough to point out for us that you plagiarized this material from his Bible-Lite page, my hunch is that this challenge is above your abilities.  

Rocko resp: Well again you show your ignorance because i didnt get this article from the individual that you named.  And stay  focused.  Vatican city is an independant state apart from Italy.  It is recognized as an independant country by every government in the world.  get your facts straight Skippy.  The bible gives many clues as to who the Beast is and the papacy fits allllll of them.  You need to get smart, stop criticizing and check it out for yourself.   UticaCW resp: 1 Cor. 11:29: "a person who eats and drinks without recognizing the body is eating and drinking his own condemnation."

Rocko resp: the bible does not teach that we are to call the spirit of christ into a wafer,  but rather the bible teaches to break bread and replay the last supper in remembrance of jesus.  No where does the bible say that we are to re sacrifice christ by calling him into the bread over and over. Jesus didnt mean to eat his literal flesh but rather to eat his doctrine.  that is what he meant by eat his flesh.     And drinking his blood is an analogy meaning to be washed clean with his redemption.  There are many verses that show this point.  Do you actually think that Jesus would contradict Gods health laws and tell us to literally cannabolize, and eat his flesh and drink his blood?  I refer you to Romans 14:21   It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.  also Genesis 9:4  But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. You can find many verses in the bible that refer to Gods doctrine as "bread".   BREAD THAT JESUS SAID TO EAT IS NOT LITERAL FLESH AND BLOOD 1Cor 10:17  The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?  For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.   (Doctrine)or church  1 cor 5:8  Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.    (Once again bread is doctrine.) not literal flesh. 2 Cor 9:10  Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)  Doctrine again.  Matt 4:4   It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.  (Doctrine) Matt 6:11,12   Give us this day our daily bread.    (Doctrine) 12  And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors Matt 15:26   It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and cast it to dogs. Matt 16:12  Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Jesus referred to leaven of bread as the doctrine of the pharisees, but regular bread was his DOCTRINE! jOHN 6:35   And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. ONCE AGAIN HE SPEAKS OF DOCTRINE The Cup of Doctrinal Fornication           Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour,           and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a           golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her           fornication:      The cup illustrated on the three Vatican coins at the top of this article, and in the      hand of the other symbolic depictions of FIDES, is the golden cup of wine of the      Mass. Above it is the host or wafer of the Eucharist, which resembles a sunburst.

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Since Mr. Scheifler was kind enough to point out for us that you plagiarized this material from his Bible-Lite page, my hunch is that this challenge is above your abilities.   Rocko resp: Well again you show your ignorance because i didnt get this article from the individual that you named.

Oh?  From whom, then, did you plagiarize it? The bible gives many clues as to who the Beast is

That’s right.  The beast is Ellen G White.  Come out of her, Rocko. Jesus didnt mean to eat his literal flesh but rather to eat his doctrine.

Then why did he say "This ~IS~ my body"? that is what he meant by eat his flesh.

Then why did he say "This ~IS~ my body"? And drinking his blood is an analogy

Then why did he say "this ~IS~ my blood"?  That’s not an analogy. Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it. Dave

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That’s right.  The beast is Ellen G White.  Come out of her, Rocko.

Rocko resp: At first I thought you were smart but then I realized that you may have a learning disability after spending some time with you. Daniel describes that the beast power will rule for 1260 years and then suffer a deadly wound, and then be revived and "all the world will wonder after the beast".   Ellen  white didnt rule the world for 1260 years.  And the mark of the beast is the number of a man, not (ha ha) a women. But I have got to say you are kinda funny. Also remember my friend that Gods remanant church will observe all of the commandments as stated in Rev 12:17.  In this I know that the seventh day adventist church is of Gods word.  Also ellen White is not the leader of our church.  Christ is the leader of our church.

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Pliny mentions the Vaticanus Ager (HN 3, 54). Thanks Chris.  This is the sort of information that one can sink one’s teeth inoto. Dave Rocko resp:

 Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads           are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.  Look in any encyclopedia and you will find that Rome is known as the city of seven      hills, or seven mountains, and Vatican City is located in the city of Rome. These      seven hills are the Capitoline, Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, Celian (Coelian),      Aventine and Palatine.

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Rocko resp: Try listening to this mans words and go to the websight rather then being an ignorant idiot thet you sound like.

Can’t you just feel the LOVE in this post?

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So you’re the Liar-for-Jesus from whom Rocky plagiarized this stuff?  Where did you get that etymology for "anus = of" that you posted on your Bible-Lite page?

Rocko resp: Try listening to this mans words and go to the websight rather then being an ignorant idiot thet you sound like.

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Now Dave, you apparently don’t have a clue what you are talking about, so it does not surprise me you resort to ad hominem insults. I challenge you publicly to *prove* conclusively in this forum that there are any errors what-so-ever in my article on the word Vatican. I stand ready to correct any errors that can be documented and proven beyond doubt. Michael Rocko resp:

Micheal, I find you extremely intelligent and I thank the lord that you created thoses articles a to help shed light on this papal matter.  If you have time please send me more information, being that you seem to really know and study the word more than I.  I would appreciate you educating me more than what I know.  May the lord be with you always.  P.S. pray for protection from the evil one.

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Greetings, Rome is on the seven hills but the Vatican is not. The Vatican is located outside the area of the seven hills. Here is a map of Rome with the Seven hills listed. Rocko resp: use you head!!  how can Rome be on the seven hills??  i used to live in italy, and you are going to (ha ha ) tell me that all of Rome is on seven hills?

In the first post you said:      Look in any encyclopedia and you will find that Rome is known as the city of seven      hills, or seven mountains, and Vatican City is located in the city of Rome. These  seven hills are the Capitoline, Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, Celian (Coelian),  Aventine and Palatine.

According to the map at the web link I posted it shows the following Capitoline is East of the Tiber Quirinal is East of the Tiber Viminal is East of the Tiber Esquiline is East of the Tiber Celian (Coelian) [spelled Caelian on the map] is East of the Tiber Aventine is East of the Tiber Palatine is East of the Tiber The Vatican is WEST of the Tiber. Revelation 17:9         [9] This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are         seven mountains on which the woman is seated; According to the map and the names of the seven hills that you posted, the Vatican is *not* "seated" on _any_ of the seven hills of Rome. Again those links are:         http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9040/romecity.gif         http://www.lonelyplanet.com.au/dest/eur/graphics/map-rom.htm         http://www.virtualrome.com/virtualtour/index.html#mappa         http://ross.pvt.k12.ny.us/rome/hills/hills.html         http://www.roma2000.it/zintrrio.html         http://www.roma2000.it/zmappa.html Do your homework  skippy!!  The vatican is located on seven hills.

I have done my homework.  The maps show that the Vatican is not located on seven hills that your source listed. Since you have done your homework, then would you be so kind as to show me a map that proves me wrong? May God lead us to a fuller understanding of His truth and may His peace go with you. — 1 Peter 3:8-15 [8] Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind. [9] Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing.  [10] For "He that would love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking guile; [11] let him turn away from evil and do right; let him seek peace and pursue it. [12] For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those that do evil." [13] Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is right? [14] But even if you do suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,  [15] but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;

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Dave, I have added additional source material to my article, and from what I present it is patently obvious that "vatic" is only used in reference to prophecy (in English or Latin), and is surely the origin of the naming of Vatican hill. The relationship of "Vatican" to prophecy is even confirmed by the Catholic book I quote in my article. I will continue to maintain that Vaticanus mons/collis clearly indicates a hill or mountain of prophecy, since you have not presented anything to conclusively disprove it. Michael

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  Rome, like many european cities, has fortified city walls around its perimeter. The original walls of the city of the Caesars, built between 272 and 279 by Aurelian, did not include the area of the Vatican on the west bank of the Tiber. So maps of ancient pagan Rome will not include the area of the Vatican. However, after the sacking of the city by the Saracens in 846, the city walls were enlarged as a defensive measure by Pope Leo IV between 848 and 852, and at that time Vatican hill was included within these walls, which have defined the boundary of the city of Rome ever since. So under papal Rome, the Vatican has been considered within the city limits of Rome since the middle of the 9th century. (See: I. Introduction, of the  1913 Catholic Encyclopedia article on the Vatican.) http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/15276b.htm   In addition, the official "cathedra" or seat of the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, is not St. Peter’s in the Vatican, but actually the basilica of St. John Lateran, which is a short distance to the southeast of the Coliseum and Roman Forum, on the opposite side of Rome from the Vatican. Located on the Coelian Hill, St. John Lateran dates back to emperor Constantine, who donated the basilica to Pope Melchiades in the 4th century. It is the oldest basilica in Christendom and lays claim to the title of the "mother church". Until 1870 it was where most popes were officially crowned and ruled for centuries, as it was the residence of the Popes until 1309, when the papacy moved to Avignon. Since 1377, upon the return to Rome from Avignon, Church administration has been located in the Vatican. However, as the cathedra of the Bishop of Rome, the Lateran is today still considered to be extraterritorial a part of the Vatican City-State, as is the basilica Santa Maria Maggiore (St. Mary Major), which is located on Esquiline Hill. This is the result of a treaty (Concordat) signed with the Italian state in 1929 at the Lateran, which restored the diplomatic status of the Vatican as an independent city-state, which had been lost in 1870 when Italy seized all papal territories. See  Lateran Treaty – Article 13. http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/treaty.htm So even today, official Vatican territorial sovereignty extends across the Tiber into various parts of the city of Rome. It can even be said that the Vatican literally straddles, or sits over the seven-hilled city of Rome (Rev 17:9)! Excerpt from my article What does the word Vatican mean? http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/vatican.htm

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-anus -a -um adjl suf 1. from common nouns: urbanus *of* the city; 2. from place names: Romanus from or *of* Rome, Roman; 3. from personal names: Claudi-anus *of* Claudius, Claudian.

Well, Michael, on your web page, you say: "You will discover that the word vatic = prophetic (of prophecy), anus = of, mons = mountain, and collis = hill." This is incorrect: ‘anus’ is ~not~ a word that means ‘of’ in latin.  The inflected suffix ‘-ano-’ forms an adjective of locality; hence "Vaticanus" or "Romanus".  But the latin adjectival form ‘Vaticanus’ does ~NOT~ mean what you want it to mean.  The latin word for ‘prophetic’ is ‘vaticinus’, and the word for "of prophecy" is ‘vaticinii’, the genitive of ‘vaticinium’. Moreover, and far more distrubing, you are deviously insidious in your use of the word ‘vatic’, which is an ~English~ word, and ~not~ a latin word.  The latin word is ‘vaticinus’.  And yet you dishonestly add a latin suffix onto an English word and pass it off for truth???  And you disingenuously claim that you are not a Liar-for-Jesus?  A false-philologist? Now Dave, you apparently don’t have a clue what you are talking about, so it does not surprise me you resort to ad hominem insults. I challenge you publicly to *prove* conclusively in this forum that there are any errors what-so-ever in my article on the word Vatican. I stand ready to correct any errors that can be documented and proven beyond doubt.

So you’ll remove your false etymology and humiliatingly inept latin? Dave

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Rocko resp: this person (who claims to be catholic) is extremely uneducatedNo. Anus = either an old hag, a ring, or by analogy the posterior. Rocko resp: Uticac shows his lack of education of his own religion and also prove that he knows nothing of Latin.  But he would make a great clown.  you missed your calling. Rocky, your long-winded, tortuous explanation that the Blood of Christ is an abomination may well earn you a choice seat in Hell.

Rocko resp: Matt 15:14   Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. As for the rest of your post … you’re too far off the deep-end, my cultist friend.  Try posting it in alt.up.the.meds.

Rocko resp: Matt 23:27,28   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. 28  Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Response:

What Does the word Vatican Mean? http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/vatican.htm

So you’re the Liar-for-Jesus from whom Rocky plagiarized this stuff?  Where did you get that etymology for "anus = of" that you posted on your Bible-Lite page? Dave

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Rocko resp: this person (who claims to be catholic) is extremely uneducated

Indeed. No. Anus = either an old hag, a ring, or by analogy the posterior. Rocko resp: Uticac shows his lack of education of his own religion and also prove that he knows nothing of Latin.  But he would make a great clown.  you missed your calling.

Indeed.  I am uneducated and know no Latin because my Lewis and Short dictionary doesn’t support your false etymologies?  So how much latin do you know?  Refute my claims. Since Mr. Scheifler was kind enough to point out for us that you plagiarized this material from his Bible-Lite page, my hunch is that this challenge is above your abilities.   Rocky, your long-winded, tortuous explanation that the Blood of Christ is an abomination may well earn you a choice seat in Hell. Rocko resp: Matt 15:14   Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

UticaCW resp: 1 Cor. 11:29: "a person who eats and drinks without recognizing the body is eating and drinking his own condemnation." Dave

Response:

Rome is on the seven hills but the Vatican is not. The Vatican is located outside the area of the seven hills. Here is a map of Rome with the Seven hills listed.

Rocko resp: use you head!!  how can Rome be on the seven hills??  i used to live in italy, and you are going to (ha ha ) tell me that all of Rome is on seven hills?  Do your homework  skippy!!  The vatican is located on seven hills.

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Dave, What Does the word Vatican Mean? http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/vatican.htm So you’re the Liar-for-Jesus from whom Rocky plagiarized this stuff? Where did you get that etymology for "anus = of" that you posted on your Bible-Lite page?

Source: The New College Latin & English Dictionary by John C. Traupman, Ph.D. copyright and published by Bantam Books in 1995, page 60: -anus -a -um adjl suf 1. from common nouns: urbanus *of* the city; 2. from place names: Romanus from or *of* Rome, Roman; 3. from personal names: Claudi-anus *of* Claudius, Claudian. Now Dave, you apparently don’t have a clue what you are talking about, so it does not surprise me you resort to ad hominem insults. I challenge you publicly to *prove* conclusively in this forum that there are any errors what-so-ever in my article on the word Vatican. I stand ready to correct any errors that can be documented and proven beyond doubt. Michael

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Rome is on the seven hills but the Vatican is not. The Vatican is located outside the area of the seven hills.

Actually, Vatican sovereignty extends to Santa Maria Maggiore (St. Mary Major), which is located on Esquiline Hill, and St. John Lateran, on Coelian Hill. St. John Lateran is the official cathedra of the Bishop of Rome, not St. Peter’s. Also, the Vatican has been *within* the city limits of Rome since 852, when Pope Leo IV built the city walls to include the Vatican. (See: I. Introduction, of the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia article on the Vatican at http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/15276b.htm) What Does the word Vatican Mean? http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/vatican.htm Michael

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vatic = prophetic

No. Vaticinus/a/um = prophetic.   anus = of,

No. Anus = either an old hag, a ring, or by analogy the posterior. et intellexi quod Deus non misisset eum sed quasi vaticinans

Notice the difference between "vaticAnus" and "vaticInans".  An entirely different vowel. "CITT