Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

How confused indeed! You must be mixing up your

threads Gerard. Yours had a different title altogether, "Urbi et Orbi" – if

I’m not mistaken. You are correct, Marina, and I didn’t at all confuse the threads…  :-) You did indeed post the Pope of Rome’s message

to the Orthodox newsgroup. This was just one of the many messages you do

post to the Orthodox group. They would perhaps be more readily accepted if

they were done with such a proud spirit, so ready to denigrate fellow

Christians, and to laud the Roman Catholic Church purely for its worldly status

and success. It’s what is right in the eyes of God that counts, and that

remains to be seen – especially if your boasting is anything to go

by. I posted the Pope’s Urbi et Orbi message without a single personal comment. You may read far too much into some of my posts and the machinations of my own evil heart.  (In other words, judge not lest you….). It is a pity you cannot take a leaf out of your

fellow Roman Catholic John (?) Cuneen’s book. He will argue the Roman

position, but he does tend to avoid the kind of boasting and peacock strutting

that you have gone in for over the years. It is a pity that what could be

an interesting dialogue is so thoroughly spoilt by your arrogant attitude

towards fellow Christians. John Cuneen is swell. I admire him. But our "styles" may differ some.  But then I like Johny too and his "style" as well. To say nothing of how deeply I regard Rob. And many regular Orthodox posters as well — including you. We all have our own "style" making for a fascinating exchange often enough. Steve simply posted the more relevant (for

Orthodox Christians) Christmas message of the Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria. Of course, I also posted the Patriarch of

Constantinople’s Christmas Encyclical – and I’m sure we’ll be seeing many

from Orthodox hierarchs in the Orthodox newsgroup in the coming days.

I tend to think that if I hadn’t posted the Pope’s Message no one would have posted any Patriarchal Messages to this newsgroup. I started a real trend here….  It is in reaction to the Pope and his immense appeal, once more, that motivates the Orthodox to "produce." And, so far, none of the posted Christmas Messages from any Patriarch matches the power and the depth and breadth of the Pope of Rome’s Urbi et Orbi. To read them side by side is to see why the Catholic Church is known universally as *the Catholic Church.* OK, I did my boasting in this email.   —  Gerard Serafin  Celebrating the romance of orthodoxy:  A Catholic Page for Lovers:  http://praiseofglory.com  "Do not read good books; read *great* books!":  http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm  Enjoy the Christmas Festival as long as possible!

Response:

Re: the pope.  He really looked frail and a bit disoriented to me. Some of my guests asked if a pope has ever been removed from office? I said I really don’t know of any instance where this occured. Was I right? What of the pope loses some mental faculities? What if he has dementia and can’t remember parts of the mass? I hate to say it, but I think we are fast headed that way. Dawn

I have no idea who you are talking about.  Pope Petros VII looks great, is in good health and vitality. Evan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: the pope.  He really looked frail and a bit disoriented to me. Some of my guests asked if a pope has ever been removed from office? I said I really don’t know of any instance where this occured. Was I right? What of the pope loses some mental faculities? What if he has dementia and can’t remember parts of the mass? I hate to say it, but I think we are fast headed that way. Dawn I have no idea who you are talking about.  Pope Petros VII looks great, is in good health and vitality. Evan

Please Evan. You know full well that Dawn wasn’t talking about Petros. BAM

Response:

Re: the pope.  He really looked frail and a bit disoriented to me. Some of my guestsasked

if a pope has ever been removed from office? I said I really don’t know of any instance where this occured. Was I right? What of the pope loses some mental faculities? What if he has dementia and

can’t remember parts of the mass? I hate to say it, but I think we arefast headed that way. Dawn I have no idea who you are talking about.  Pope Petros VII looks great, isin

good health and vitality. Evan

LOL< either you do a lot of drugs or we have 2 popes. the one I saw looked like he had one foot in the nursing home door , sorry.

Response:

Thank you Steve, for providing the wise words of the Pope. His wise words in this very difficult time are very inspiring. We are very blessed to have him as one of our bishops.  I have enjoyed reading what Pope Peter has said in the past and look forward to seeing more of his messages in the future. Again, thank you very much. Evan

Response:

Re: the pope.  He really looked frail and a bit disoriented to me. Some of my guests asked if a pope has ever been removed from office? I said I really don’t know of any instance where this occured. Was I right? What of the pope loses some mental faculities? What if he has dementia and can’t remember parts of the mass? I hate to say it, but I think we are fast headed that way. Dawn

Response:

Thank you Steve, for providing the wise words of the Pope. His wise words in this very difficult time are

very inspiring. I can hardly believe my eyes reading this lovely tribute to the Pope! But, sweetie, it was *I* who posted the Pope’s Christmas Letter, not Steve.  My how confused we can get on Christmas!  Hope you had a joyous day. You made my day today already…. Thanks and perhaps you will join me in a rousing: Long live the Pope!  Viva il Papa! —  Gerard Serafin  Celebrating the romance of orthodoxy:  A Catholic Page for Lovers:  http://praiseofglory.com  "Do not read good books; read *great* books!":  http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm  Enjoy the Christmas Festival as long as possible!

Response:

How confused indeed! You must be mixing up your threads Gerard. Yours had a different title altogether, "Urbi et Orbi" – if I’m not mistaken. You did indeed post the Pope of Rome’s message to the Orthodox newsgroup. This was just one of the many messages you do post to the Orthodox group. They would perhaps be more readily accepted if they were done with such a proud spirit, so ready to denigrate fellow Christians, and to laud the Roman Catholic Church purely for its worldly status and success. It’s what is right in the eyes of God that counts, and that remains to be seen – especially if your boasting is anything to go by. It is a pity you cannot take a leaf out of your fellow Roman Catholic John (?) Cuneen’s book. He will argue the Roman position, but he does tend to avoid the kind of boasting and peacock strutting that you have gone in for over the years. It is a pity that what could be an interesting dialogue is so thoroughly spoilt by your arrogant attitude towards fellow Christians. Steve simply posted the more relevant (for Orthodox Christians) Christmas message of the Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria. Of course, I also posted the Patriarch of Constantinople’s Christmas Encyclical – and I’m sure we’ll be seeing many from Orthodox hierarchs in the Orthodox newsgroup in the coming days.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you Steve, for providing the wise words of the Pope. His wise words in this very difficult time are very inspiring. I can hardly believe my eyes reading this lovely tribute to the Pope! But, sweetie, it was *I* who posted the Pope’s Christmas Letter, not Steve.  My how confused we can get on Christmas!  Hope you had a joyous day. You made my day today already…. Thanks and perhaps you will join me in a rousing: Long live the Pope!  Viva il Papa! —  Gerard Serafin  Celebrating the romance of orthodoxy:  A Catholic Page for Lovers:  http://praiseofglory.com  "Do not read good books; read *great* books!":  http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm  Enjoy the Christmas Festival as long as possible!

Response:

You may not be aware of this but "Pope" is also a traditional title for the "Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria". It simply means "father", and was in widespread use in the ancient Church. In addition to the Orthodox title, the non-Chalcedonian Copts also refer to their leader as the "Pope of Alexandria". http://interoz.com/egypt/chiste4.htm

The use of Pope as a title for the bishops of Alexandria predates its use by the bishops of Rome, and is older than the title "Patriarch". For the first couple of centuries Alexandria was the only bishopric in north-eastern Africa. At the end of the second century more bishoprics were founded, and the bishop of the senior see, Alexandria, was given the title "Pope". After the schism that followed the Council of Chalcedon (it didn’t follow immediately, but some decades later) both the Melkite and Coptic bishops continued to use the title, as they have done to this day. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It clearly has an ancient pedigree. We see St. Gregory of Nazianzus using the title in his 21st Oration – On the Great Athanasius, Pope of Alexandria. It is also documented by Eusebius, Heracles and the Sixth Ecumenical Council. It was not until after the schism in 1073 that the Pope of Rome tried to claim excluvisity of the title for Rome alone. Nonetheless, the Orthodox Church continues to recognise Pope as a legitimate title for the Patriarch of Alexandria, as well as Rome. See: http://www.greece.org/gopatalex/pathistory2.html "The first Pope of Alexandria is taken to have been Heracles (for a 1ist of all the Bishops, Archbishops and Popes of Alexandria whose names have come down to us, see the Appendix at the end of this file). The title of Pope, however, was used by the Bishops of Alexandria right from the inception of the Church of Alexandria. As early as the fourth century, the Bishop of Alexandria also bore  titles such as "Shepherd and Lord", "Most Blessed, Father", "Most Blessed Pope" (Athanasius), "Father of Fathers", "Father of Fathers and Chief Priests", "Christ’s Locum Tenens", and "Judge of the World". In this way, the Archbishop of Alexandria assumed unlimited powers and his authority was absolute. In the third century, the Church of Alexandria became Mother Church of all the churches in Egypt and Africa, with its Bishop as their Great Shepherd. Canon VI of the First Ecumenical Council was quite explicit about this: "Let tke ancient customs be kept up in Egypt and Libya and Pentapolis, so that the Bishop of Alexandria ‘has power over all these, since it is customary in the case of the Bishop in Rome, and likewise at Antioch and in the other provinces for the privileges to be preserved by the churches"

All my books are packed away while we are renovating our house, otherwise I could quote the full list of titles that are sung when he is in church. I know it ends with "ecumenical judge", and has something about "the Great City of Alexandria, Libia and Pentapolis". His Christmas message was read out in church on Christmas Day in every parish in the Patriatrchate, and I thought it was worth posting here. It’s available on the home page of the Patriarchate at: http://www.greece.org/gopatalex/ in English, Greek and French. — The unworthy servant of God, Stephen Methodius Hayes Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/

Response:

How confused indeed! You must be mixing up your threads Gerard. Yours had a different title altogether, "Urbi et Orbi" – if I’m not mistaken. You are correct, Marina, and I didn’t at all confuse the threads…  :-)

Oh really, then why the comments? Never mind. Unfortunately, we look at things in the context of everything else you post to the Orthodox newsgroup over the year. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You did indeed post the Pope of Rome’s message to the Orthodox newsgroup. This was just one of the many messages you do post to the Orthodox group. They would perhaps be more readily accepted if they were done with such a proud spirit, so ready to denigrate fellow Christians, and to laud the Roman Catholic Church purely for its worldly status and success. It’s what is right in the eyes of God that counts, and that remains to be seen – especially if your boasting is anything to go by. I posted the Pope’s Urbi et Orbi message without a single personal comment. You may read far too much into some of my posts and the machinations of my own evil heart.  (In other words, judge not lest you….).

Probably Gerard, it was the follow up boast that you made on the subject which ‘enlightened’ us about what you term "the machinations of your own evil heart" (it is not an expression I would use, sweetie-pie). This is what I was referring to. The post is below with your words so everybody on the Roman Catholic newsgroup can be aware of this. We are not so much protesting at the fact that the Pope of Rome’s words were sent to the Orthodox group (that is neither here nor there) we were rather shocked by the unchristian spirit in which this was done! This was made evident by your follow-up post, the relevant parts of which are presented below. I have already pointed out to you how this boasting and denigration of fellow Christians actually contradicts the New Testament of Our Lord. Nevertheless, you continue in trying to justisfy such mean spirited comments and behaviour. Are you really so much more concerned about the praises of men, rather than the praises of God?

<… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, the Orthodox Catholic Church (built on the infallible confession of faith of the apostle Peter) is the most hated and yet most loved of all.  My posts do indeed remind you, too, that this Church is, by far, the most interesting of all…  and, as anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear recognizes — she is the most ‘catholic’ of Churches as well.  Just look at the way the Pope’s message is noticed by the world (orbis); sadly, the other Patriarchal Christmas Messages don’t make much of a dent — just not interesting enough, perhaps, to even report? …. Thanks! Merry Christmas to you and all! —  Gerard Serafin  Celebrating the romance of orthodoxy:  A Catholic Page for Lovers:  http://praiseofglory.com  "Do not read good books; read *great* books!":  http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm

Response:

You may not be aware of this but "Pope" is also a traditional title for the "Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria". It simply means "father", and was in widespread use in the ancient Church. In addition to the Orthodox title, the non-Chalcedonian Copts also refer to their leader as the "Pope of Alexandria". http://interoz.com/egypt/chiste4.htm It clearly has an ancient pedigree. We see St. Gregory of Nazianzus using the title in his 21st Oration – On the Great Athanasius, Pope of Alexandria. It is also documented by Eusebius, Heracles and the Sixth Ecumenical Council. It was not until after the schism in 1073 that the Pope of Rome tried to claim excluvisity of the title for Rome alone. Nonetheless, the Orthodox Church continues to recognise Pope as a legitimate title for the Patriarch of Alexandria, as well as Rome. See: http://www.greece.org/gopatalex/pathistory2.html "The first Pope of Alexandria is taken to have been Heracles (for a 1ist of all the Bishops, Archbishops and Popes of Alexandria whose names have come down to us, see the Appendix at the end of this file). The title of Pope, however, was used by the Bishops of Alexandria right from the inception of the Church of Alexandria. As early as the fourth century, the Bishop of Alexandria also bore  titles such as "Shepherd and Lord", "Most Blessed, Father", "Most Blessed Pope" (Athanasius), "Father of Fathers", "Father of Fathers and Chief Priests", "Christ’s Locum Tenens", and "Judge of the World". In this way, the Archbishop of Alexandria assumed unlimited powers and his authority was absolute. In the third century, the Church of Alexandria became Mother Church of all the churches in Egypt and Africa, with its Bishop as their Great Shepherd. Canon VI of the First Ecumenical Council was quite explicit about this: "Let tke ancient customs be kept up in Egypt and Libya and Pentapolis, so that the Bishop of Alexandria ‘has power over all these, since it is customary in the case of the Bishop in Rome, and likewise at Antioch and in the other provinces for the privileges to be preserved by the churches" " Of course, the title of the message could be very misleading to those who are not aware of this fact and would thus have expected a message from the Pope of Rome. I suspect Steve was having a bit of mischief at Gerard’s expense. ( Gerard recently sent a post to the Orthodox group entitled, "Unstoppable Patriarch" while it in fact referred to the Pope of Rome. He likes to play around with titles like that, it seems.)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PETROS VII BY THE GRACE OF GOD POPE AND PATRIARCH OF ALEXANDRIA AND ALL AFRICA TO ALL THE FAITHFUL OF THE CHURCH, NOT THE POPE!!!

Response:

PETROS VII BY THE GRACE OF GOD POPE AND PATRIARCH OF ALEXANDRIA AND ALL AFRICA TO ALL THE FAITHFUL OF THE CHURCH,

NOT THE POPE!!!

Response:

I have to LOL. But, I have to say that Steve was being a bit deceptive with his message title. It’s true that the Patriarch of Alexandria calls himself "Pope," but I (and I suspect most others) expected to see a statement by the Pope of Rome.

The Bishop of Alexandria does not call _himself_ "Pope". It is his title. The Bishop of Rome has the same title, I believe.

Response:

I can hardly believe my eyes reading this lovely tribute to the Pope!

I have to LOL. But, I have to say that Steve was being a bit deceptive with his message title. It’s true that the Patriarch of Alexandria calls himself "Pope," but I (and I suspect most others) expected to see a statement by the Pope of Rome.

Response:

PETROS VII BY THE GRACE OF GOD POPE AND PATRIARCH OF ALEXANDRIA AND ALL AFRICA TO ALL THE FAITHFUL OF THE CHURCH, GRACE, PEACE AND MERCY FROM OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST WHO BECAME INCARNATE In the darkness that surrounds the world, behold He rises the Bright and Morning Star (Rev. 22:16), Jesus Christ, who is the light of the world and gives to all the light of life (John 8:12). Today, in the chaos and wars all over the world, He Himself, who is our peace (Eph 2:14) comes. Today peace is proclaimed to the world, a peace, which is the hymn of the angels and the work of the Saints. Though we praise peace in our daily lives as people and as nations we do not practice it. Denial and abuse of human rights are ruling, be it through war, violence, terrorism or abuse of power. Why? It is because we do not ask this good from its source, which is God. We seek peace in the world, but peace only comes from God. We seek external peace in forms such as the temporary absence of war instead of everlasting peace which is the peace that is found in our authentic inward turning towards to God. Many times, as imperfect human beings we enter into a meaningless cycle of peace, justice and freedom by not knowing their sacred virtue. Instead, we rely on material worldly principles and seek to govern with them. This is the precursor and creator of unfair competition, revenge, injustice, slavery and suffering in the world. In addition to this we have the emergence of terrorism, apathy and inflation that is of concern to governments and the people. However my beloved children in Christ, today is Christmas, God is standing next to us as a child. He is a child. He calls us to come closer to Him, to welcome Him into our hearts with simplicity, joy, faith, goodness and childlike wisdom. This is His spirit. This is the spirit of His Kingdom. This is the Kingdom that He inaugurates today. This is the Kingdom that someone can enter as long as he embodies the unquestioning faith of a child: unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven (Mat 18:3). Today the human conscience thirsts to be free from the stress of sin. It seeks to be delivered from the depression of this century in all its glamorous illusion and hypocrisy. It also desires freedom from spiritual and moral oppression and fear. It yearns for the peace of God which surpasses all understanding (Phil 4:7). Today, the divine infant brings to everyone all the divine gifts.