Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

All Christianity revolves around the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. This we can all agree on. He conquered death itself. Most of us agree that the New Testament is the record of the life and death events of Jesus and the doings of his early church. What then is the FIRST thing that the FIRST gospel writer (matthew) tells us happened immediately after Jesus yielded up the ghost (mathew 27:50-)? Sure the first gospel writer makes sure we know that the earth quaked. I mean that’s pretty phenomenal, we have to know that. He even tells us about graves being opened and people rising from the dead.  Pretty dog-gone amazing stuff…..BUT….that’s not the FIRST physical occurrence he bothers to mention. The FIRST thing Matthew writes to us is "And, behold, the veil in the temple was rent in two". If we needed to know the physical things that transpired from this spiritual event (and obviously Mathew thinks we needed to) then isn’t it quite telling that amidst all of the miraculous physical occurrences, the very first thing he mentions is this comparatively mild physical event of a piece of cloth (veil) being ripped into half? The purpose of the veil in the temple is quite well known.  Only the priests could enter the temple through the veil.  All others were destined to stand on the other side of the veil.  We were clearly not worthy.  Even the priest had to be particularly careful about his purity.  A rope was tied to his foot in case he was found unworthy before God and dropped dead on the spot  a somewhat regular occurrence it seems). So even though Matthew makes sure we know that this veil is no longer needed and has been shredded by the  death of Christ (now we can go to God ourselves), the catholic church reinstituted this procedure in the devil-inspired act they refer to as confession.  These people not only want you to believe that you need the priest to go before God for you, they even ACTUALLY use a veil in their little boxes..(yeah yeah yeah I know, some of the churches quit using the veil recently.  It’s like using that dead language of Latin.  They make minor changes to appease the masses when they seem on the verge of coming out of their coma. "e.g.. yeah, we better investigate this child abuse stuff…..now that people are paying attention"). Now come on people, unless you’re already convicted to be under the great delusion that will come on people who refuse to believe the truth, how on earth could you be so blind to not realize this all too obvious truth?  The catholic church takes the most important meaning of Christ’s death and turns it 180 degrees around.  Once you realize this, you will be amazed at what else you will quickly come to see. If you were the only human being ever created, Jesus would have still done exactly what He has done.  He’s in love with you, and He’s waiting for you. May God Bless us all, Dave

Response:

<snipped for brevity – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The FIRST thing Matthew writes to us is "And, behold, the veil in the temple was rent in two". If we needed to know the physical things that transpired from this spiritual event (and obviously Mathew thinks we needed to) then isn’t it quite telling that amidst all of the miraculous physical occurrences, the very first thing he mentions is this comparatively mild physical event of a piece of cloth (veil) being ripped into half? The purpose of the veil in the temple is quite well known.  Only the priests could enter the temple through the veil.  All others were destined to stand on the other side of the veil.  We were clearly not worthy.  Even the priest had to be particularly careful about his purity.  A rope was tied to his foot in case he was found unworthy before God and dropped dead on the spot  a somewhat regular occurrence it seems). So even though Matthew makes sure we know that this veil is no longer needed and has been shredded by the  death of Christ (now we can go to God ourselves), the catholic church reinstituted this procedure in the devil-inspired act they refer to as confession.  These people not only want you to believe that you need the priest to go before God for you,

<snipped for brevity again A pretty good argument. I have only 3 problems with it. 1) Jesus called Himself the Good Shepherd. "I know mine, and mine know Me. As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep. And other sheep I have that are not of this fold: them also I must bring. And they shall hear my voice: And there shall be one fold and one shepherd." (John 10: 14-16)     -Now, this shows that Jesus is the way to salvation and, even though there are some who are not of His herd (Church), He will call for them to join the fold. 2) Jesus told Simon Peter to feed His lambs and His sheep. "When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: ‘Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these?’ He saith to him: ‘Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee.’ He saith to him: ‘Feed my lambs." Jesus then repeated this question and gave Simon the same command to "Feed my lambs". Jesus asked Simon a third time and Simon became upset that He would ask him yet again. Simon replied, "Lord thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee." Jesus commanded him, "Feed my sheep." (John 21: 15-17)     -This clearly shows Jesus giving the duty of shepherding the flock that Jesus talks about in John 10: 14-16. 3) Christ gave Simon the name Peter (which means Rock) and also the keys to the kingdom of heaven. He also gives him the power to forgive or not forgive sins. "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." (Matthew 16: 18-19)     -This shows Jesus instituting His Church with Peter. He gives him the power to forgive sins and the keys to the kingdom of heaven. In summary, Jesus calls Himself the Good Shepherd, but he also gives the power over his flock to Simon Peter. Peter is then given power on earth over the Church, the keys to heaven, and the power to forgive sins. Now, if Jesus says that all the sheep and lambs will become one fold, Peter is now the earthly shepherd, and also has the keys to the kingdom of heaven, it would seem *very* logical that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church and we need the successors of Peter to forgive our sins and guide us to heaven. Is this too logical for some people to figure out? Steve

Response:

Thanks for replying in a measured way Steve.  I’m glad you appreciated my "argument" as you termed it.  You seemed to find merit in it on its own. You eventually supplied three points of rebuttal.  One would still have to choose between your argument and mine, in that they cannot both be correct. I will take your responses in the order you gave them Point 1   "And other sheep I have that are not of this fold: them also I must  bring. And they shall hear my voice: And there shall be one fold and one  shepherd." (John 10: 14-16) I’m not sure what this has to do exactly with your argument. I think you would admit it is the least persuasive of the three rebuttals you make to my point that priests were for B.C.  Because it is your weakest response, so then it follows that it will be my weakest response.  I will rebut simply by saying that I have seen that passage used by many different groups.  One of the interpretations that come to mind is the one that says this is evidence of people/beings on other planets, and that Jesus died for them also. I’m not saying that is correct, at all.  I’m simply stating that this passage could mean quite a few things, it has one meaning to me, and I’m not exactly sure how you’re using it. Point 2 <"Lord thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee."  Jesus commanded him, "Feed my sheep." (John 21: 15-17) -This clearly shows Jesus giving the duty of shepherding the flock that  Jesus talks about in John 10: 14-16. Shepherds don’t feed flocks.  They watch them, they guide them, they don’t feed them.  Jesus is the good shepherd, not Simon. and finally Point 3 Christ gave Simon the name Peter (which means Rock) and also the keys to

 the kingdom of heaven. He also gives him the power to forgive or not forgive  sins. "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will  build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I  will give to thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou  shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou  shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." (Matthew 16:  18-19) You choose to infer that the passage gives the "power to forgive or not forgive sins".  However, even in your own post, you show clearly that is now how the scripture reads.  Where I state specifics on what the bible says, you use inferences.  Some people interpret that passage to mean the ability to bind spirits (e.g. I rebuke you in the name of Jesus), others interpret it otherwise.  You choose to interpret it in another way altogether.  I’ve heard this interpretation since I was a little boy.  My roman catholic upbringing gave me 12 years of catholic education. My father was a devoted catholic.  I loved my father very much. I respect him, even in his death, however, he was unfortunately enslaved in what is obviously a false religion built on half-truths and inferences and the machinations of mere men pretending to be something which they are not., and in the process, attempting to destroy the truth behind the single greatest event in the history of the earth. To think that a priest is needed is to deny the very essence of what Christ died for.  The information I posted initially would lead any logical person to see that simple truth (providing they have not hardened their hearts, or been purposefully blinded from the truth) Come out of her my friend, you will never regret it. She is most likely the false prophet spoken about in revelations.  The signs are all there. Vatican City has a higher percentage of lawyers per capita than any place on Earth.  Read what Jesus says about lawyers (Matt 23:13:2). I hope you are not under the illusion that the mentality which once produced Scribes and Pharisees somehow ceased to exist.  Those people and their ilk go on to this day.  The bible makes no mention of their demise. Just as they represented the "official church" of Jesus’ day, they represent the "official church" of our day. David <

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped for brevity The FIRST thing Matthew writes to us is "And, behold, the veil in the temple was rent in two". If we needed to know the physical things that transpired from this spiritual event (and obviously Mathew thinks we needed to) then isn’t it quite telling that amidst all of the miraculous physical occurrences, the very first thing he mentions is this comparatively mild physical event of a piece of cloth (veil) being ripped into half? The purpose of the veil in the temple is quite well known.  Only the priests could enter the temple through the veil.  All others were destined to stand on the other side of the veil.  We were clearly not worthy.  Even the priest had to be particularly careful about his purity.  A rope was tied to his foot in case he was found unworthy before God and dropped dead on the spot  a somewhat regular occurrence it seems). So even though Matthew makes sure we know that this veil is no longer needed and has been shredded by the  death of Christ (now we can go to God ourselves), the catholic church reinstituted this procedure in the devil-inspired act they refer to as confession.  These people not only want you to believe that you need the priest to go before God for you, <snipped for brevity again A pretty good argument. I have only 3 problems with it. 1) Jesus called Himself the Good Shepherd. "I know mine, and mine know Me. As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep. And other sheep I have that are not of this fold: them also I must bring. And they shall hear my voice: And there shall be one fold and one shepherd." (John 10: 14-16)     -Now, this shows that Jesus is the way to salvation and, even though there are some who are not of His herd (Church), He will call for them to join the fold. 2) Jesus told Simon Peter to feed His lambs and His sheep. "When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: ‘Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these?’ He saith to him: ‘Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee.’ He saith to him: ‘Feed my lambs." Jesus then repeated this question and gave Simon the same command to "Feed my lambs". Jesus asked Simon a third time and Simon became upset that He would ask him yet again. Simon replied, "Lord thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee." Jesus commanded him, "Feed my sheep." (John 21: 15-17)     -This clearly shows Jesus giving the duty of shepherding the flock that Jesus talks about in John 10: 14-16. 3) Christ gave Simon the name Peter (which means Rock) and also the keys to the kingdom of heaven. He also gives him the power to forgive or not forgive sins. "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." (Matthew 16: 18-19)     -This shows Jesus instituting His Church with Peter. He gives him the power to forgive sins and the keys to the kingdom of heaven. In summary, Jesus calls Himself the Good Shepherd, but he also gives the power over his flock to Simon Peter. Peter is then given power on earth over the Church, the keys to heaven, and the power to forgive sins. Now, if Jesus says that all the sheep and lambs will become one fold, Peter is now the earthly shepherd, and also has the keys to the kingdom of heaven, it would seem *very* logical that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church and we need the successors of Peter to forgive our sins and guide us to heaven. Is this too logical for some people to figure out? Steve

Response:

Point 2 <"Lord thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee." Jesus commanded him, "Feed my sheep." (John 21: 15-17) -This clearly shows Jesus giving the duty of shepherding the flock that Jesus talks about in John 10: 14-16. Shepherds don’t feed flocks.  They watch them, they guide them, they don’t feed them.

Shepherd’s *guide* their flocks to new pastures. Jesus is the good shepherd, not Simon.

But how do you address Jesus giving Peter the role of feeding His sheep.  You didn’y address the main point and instead played word games. and finally Point 3 Christ gave Simon the name Peter (which means Rock) and also the keys to the kingdom of heaven. He also gives him the power to forgive or not forgive sins. "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." (Matthew 16: 18-19) You choose to infer that the passage gives the "power to forgive or not forgive sins".

"As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any they are retained." (John 20:21-23) Care to exaplin that away? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – However, even in your own post, you show clearly that is now how the scripture reads.  Where I state specifics on what the bible says, you use inferences.  Some people interpret that passage to mean the ability to bind spirits (e.g. I rebuke you in the name of Jesus), others interpret it otherwise.  You choose to interpret it in another way altogether.  I’ve heard this interpretation since I was a little boy.  My roman catholic upbringing gave me 12 years of catholic education. My father was a devoted catholic.  I loved my father very much. I respect him, even in his death, however, he was unfortunately enslaved in what is obviously a false religion built on half-truths and inferences and the machinations of mere men pretending to be something which they are not., and in the process, attempting to destroy the truth behind the single greatest event in the history of the earth. To think that a priest is needed is to deny the very essence of what Christ died for.  The information I posted initially would lead any logical person to see that simple truth (providing they have not hardened their hearts, or been purposefully blinded from the truth)

Explain this again. How does the tearing of the Temple curtain mean the Catholic Church is invalid.  And does your feelings against the Catholic priesthood also cover the Orthodox and Anglican priesthoods? Come out of her my friend, you will never regret it. She is most likely the false prophet spoken about in revelations.  The signs are all there. Vatican City has a higher percentage of lawyers per capita than any place on Earth.  Read what Jesus says about lawyers (Matt 23:13:2).

Your cite is off.  If I am correct in what you are citing, Jesus was talking about scribes and pharisees, not lawyers.  The scribes perhaps come closest to modern day ‘lawyers’ but they’re really not the same at all/ I’m not sure you understand the various Jewish sects operatin at this time. Josephus, in 145 BC noted three main sects: Pharisees, Saducees and the Essenes. Of course, Gamaliel the Pharisee seemed pretty wise. Acts 5:34-39 I hope you are not under the illusion that the mentality which once produced Scribes and Pharisees somehow ceased to exist.  Those people and their ilk go on to this day.  The bible makes no mention of their demise. Just as they represented the "official church" of Jesus’ day, they represent the "official church" of our day.

Russ

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All Christianity revolves around the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. This we can all agree on. He conquered death itself. Most of us agree that the New Testament is the record of the life and death events of Jesus and the doings of his early church. What then is the FIRST thing that the FIRST gospel writer (matthew) tells us happened immediately after Jesus yielded up the ghost (mathew 27:50-)? Sure the first gospel writer makes sure we know that the earth quaked. I mean that’s pretty phenomenal, we have to know that. He even tells us about graves being opened and people rising from the dead.  Pretty dog-gone amazing stuff…..BUT….that’s not the FIRST physical occurrence he bothers to mention. The FIRST thing Matthew writes to us is "And, behold, the veil in the temple was rent in two".

Not only that, but it was rent from the top down, indicating that God himself rent it. If we needed to know the physical things that transpired from this spiritual event (and obviously Mathew thinks we needed to) then isn’t it quite telling that amidst all of the miraculous physical occurrences, the very first thing he mentions is this comparatively mild physical event of a piece of cloth (veil) being ripped into half?

If you research that veil, you will find that it was a particularly thick, tough cloth, the likes of which no man or men could have rent themselves. The purpose of the veil in the temple is quite well known.  Only the priests could enter the temple through the veil.  All others were destined to stand on the other side of the veil.  We were clearly not worthy.  Even the priest had to be particularly careful about his purity.  A rope was tied to his foot in case he was found unworthy before God and dropped dead on the spot  a somewhat regular occurrence it seems).

Not only was a rope tied to them, but they affixed bells to their garments so they could tell when a priest had dropped dead. When the bells stopped ringing, they knew that they had lost another one. Now, THAT is Holiness, the likes of which no Catholic can understand. Heck, they even think God has an insect problem there in Heaven! So even though Matthew makes sure we know that this veil is no longer needed and has been shredded by the  death of Christ (now we can go to God ourselves), the catholic church reinstituted this procedure in the devil-inspired act they refer to as confession.  These people not only want you to believe that you need the priest to go before God for you, they even ACTUALLY use a veil in their little boxes..(yeah yeah yeah I know, some of the churches quit using the veil recently.  It’s like using that dead language of Latin.  They make minor changes to appease the masses when they seem on the verge of coming out of their coma. "e.g.. yeah, we better investigate this child abuse stuff…..now that people are paying attention").

They are placing as many invented doctrines and people between God and man as they can, so that THEY (the church) can make sure they maintain a tight mental and physical control over their brainwashed billions. The Catholic belief is nothing short of spiritual slavery. The Latin is often used, today as it has been for generations, against those who don’t know Latin, so that they can’t see the subtle changes they continue to make to Scripture and it’s meaning. Now come on people, unless you’re already convicted to be under the great delusion that will come on people who refuse to believe the truth, how on earth could you be so blind to not realize this all too obvious truth?

Don’t hold your breath; you can rest assured that the delusions and false miracles of Satan will only increase in the RCC, as they prepare for the antichrist in the form of "Mary christ" in the Catholic church (he’ll pretend to be others to other religious denominations, but for Catholics, he’ll pretend to be Mary). This is why the false doctrine of "Mary – mediatrix; co-redemptrix *with* Jesus". Although that is not official doctrine, it has still caused increased Maryolatry (Mary Idolatry), which is fine by the church. Anything to take people’s eyes OFF Jesus and his Word is fine with them.  The catholic church takes the most important meaning of Christ’s death and turns it 180 degrees around.  Once you realize this, you will be amazed at what else you will quickly come to see.

This is why they place so many things between man and Jesus – to prevent SALVATION. This is why it’s people are CURSED with anathema curses, at least three of which curse the very fabric of faith for salvation. Anything to prevent people from coming to a real saving knowledge of Jesus and discovering that they really DON’T need all that invented junk to be saved. THAT concept scares the stuffing out of the RCC! Of course, the mere FACT that Scripture says NOT to curse people, means nothing to the church and it’s founders – they do it anyway. If you were the only human being ever created, Jesus would have still done exactly what He has done.  He’s in love with you, and He’s waiting for you. May God Bless us all, Dave

Good luck, Dave, but now they are bound to charge YOU with "hate", too, as they can’t deal with someone who cares enough to try to warn them of the damnation that they certainly face. In their eyes, you are now a "hateful troll", too. It’s a good thing you didn’t quote any Scripture to them – they REALLY HATE that, and would REALLY HATE you for it! Gary Schooley

Response:

The catholic church is not invalid.  It never was valid. It’s not christianity.  It’s a hybrid of paganism and christianity. Where Christ specifically says "Avoid calling anyone father, you have but one Father", the catholic church installs millions of them.  Where the bible only shows adults being baptized, the Catholic church only baptizes infants. Where the bible clearly shows that the priest is now useless (the tearing of the veil) the Catholic church would have you believe that he is essential for the forgiveness of your sins. Where the Holy Spirit tore down language barriers on the day of Pentecost, so that all could rightly hear the gospel of truth, the Catholic church for held their services in a dead foreign language which nary a soul understood.  If that wasn’t bad enough, the "priest" did this service with him back turned to the congregation.  How many hundreds of years this charade went on for I don’t know. Sure they hold on to the moral concepts of opposing homosexuality, abortion, and other concepts but weren’t the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus’ day "moral" also?  That was their trump piece.  They held onto their morality and their religion. There is no intercessor between man and God except for the Lord Jesus Christ.  How dare a mortal man think he is somehow worthy of Christ’s place, and worse yet, how dare one mortal man say he is perfect (infallible) in anything?  Even Peter stood corrected by Paul and admitted his wrong and changed his opinion.  How then if the "First Pope" was fallible (and yes, it concerned faith and morals) could the latter one’s become infallible? NONSENSE, utter nonsense.  And yes, orthodoxy is in the same exact vein as Catholicism. You accuse me of word games because you are not bright enough to understand the logic of conversational english.  So, I got a little more direct for you.  I’ve got many more things that are just damn  creepy  me out about catholicism, but for you in particular, its not going to be worth the breath to explain them (e.g. "don’t repeat your prayers as the pagans" Catholic translation of this verse= "here, take this rosary and say the Our Father 50 times in a row, then you’ll be forgiven".. Dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Point 2 <"Lord thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee." Jesus commanded him, "Feed my sheep." (John 21: 15-17) -This clearly shows Jesus giving the duty of shepherding the flock that Jesus talks about in John 10: 14-16. Shepherds don’t feed flocks.  They watch them, they guide them, they don’t feed them. Shepherd’s *guide* their flocks to new pastures. Jesus is the good shepherd, not Simon. But how do you address Jesus giving Peter the role of feeding His sheep. You didn’y address the main point and instead played word games. and finally Point 3 Christ gave Simon the name Peter (which means Rock) and also the keys to the kingdom of heaven. He also gives him the power to forgive or not forgive sins. "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." (Matthew 16: 18-19) You choose to infer that the passage gives the "power to forgive or not forgive sins". "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any they are retained." (John 20:21-23) Care to exaplin that away? However, even in your own post, you show clearly that is now how the scripture reads.  Where I state specifics on what the bible says, you use inferences.  Some people interpret that passage to mean the ability to bind spirits (e.g. I rebuke you in the name of Jesus), others interpret it otherwise.  You choose to interpret it in another way altogether. I’ve heard this interpretation since I was a little boy.  My roman catholic upbringing gave me 12 years of catholic education. My father was a devoted catholic.  I loved my father very much. I respect him, even in his death, however, he was unfortunately enslaved in what is obviously a false religion built on half-truths and inferences and the machinations of mere men pretending to be something which they are not., and in the process, attempting to destroy the truth behind the single greatest event in the history of the earth. To think that a priest is needed is to deny the very essence of what Christ died for.  The information I posted initially would lead any logical person to see that simple truth (providing they have not hardened their hearts, or been purposefully blinded from the truth) Explain this again. How does the tearing of the Temple curtain mean the Catholic Church is invalid.  And does your feelings against the Catholic priesthood also cover the Orthodox and Anglican priesthoods? Come out of her my friend, you will never regret it. She is most likely the false prophet spoken about in revelations.  The signs are all there. Vatican City has a higher percentage of lawyers per capita than any place on Earth.  Read what Jesus says about lawyers (Matt 23:13:2). Your cite is off.  If I am correct in what you are citing, Jesus was talking about scribes and pharisees, not lawyers.  The scribes perhaps come closest to modern day ‘lawyers’ but they’re really not the same at all/ I’m not sure you understand the various Jewish sects operatin at this time. Josephus, in 145 BC noted three main sects: Pharisees, Saducees and the Essenes. Of course, Gamaliel the Pharisee seemed pretty wise. Acts 5:34-39 I hope you are not under the illusion that the mentality which once produced Scribes and Pharisees somehow ceased to exist.  Those people and their ilk go on to this day.  The bible makes no mention of their demise. Just as they represented the "official church" of Jesus’ day, they represent the "official church" of our day. Russ

Response:

Where Christ specifically says "Avoid calling anyone father, you have but one Father", the catholic church installs millions of them

Fine, if that passage is literal then why isn’t John Chapter 6 literal? Russ

Response:

Point 2 <"Lord thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee." Jesus commanded him, "Feed my sheep." (John 21: 15-17) -This clearly shows Jesus giving the duty of shepherding the flock that Jesus talks about in John 10: 14-16. Shepherds don’t feed flocks.  They watch them, they guide them, they don’t feed them. Shepherd’s *guide* their flocks to new pastures.

Matthew 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Jesus was implying that he should "feed" them on SCRIPTURE, the living Word of God. Ironically, this is what the RCC always twists, alters and ignores. This is why today’s religious hypocrites are either profoundly ignorant of Scripture, or they just don’t care what it says (or both). GS

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The catholic church is not invalid.  It never was valid. It’s not christianity.  It’s a hybrid of paganism and christianity. Where Christ specifically says "Avoid calling anyone father, you have but one Father", the catholic church installs millions of them.  Where the bible only shows adults being baptized, the Catholic church only baptizes infants. Where the bible clearly shows that the priest is now useless (the tearing of the veil) the Catholic church would have you believe that he is essential for the forgiveness of your sins. Where the Holy Spirit tore down language barriers on the day of Pentecost, so that all could rightly hear the gospel of truth, the Catholic church for held their services in a dead foreign language which nary a soul understood.  If that wasn’t bad enough, the "priest" did this service with him back turned to the congregation.  How many hundreds of years this charade went on for I don’t know. Sure they hold on to the moral concepts of opposing homosexuality, abortion, and other concepts but weren’t the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus’ day "moral" also?  That was their trump piece.  They held onto their morality and their religion. There is no intercessor between man and God except for the Lord Jesus Christ.  How dare a mortal man think he is somehow worthy of Christ’s place, and worse yet, how dare one mortal man say he is perfect (infallible) in anything?  Even Peter stood corrected by Paul and admitted his wrong and changed his opinion.  How then if the "First Pope" was fallible (and yes, it concerned faith and morals) could the latter one’s become infallible? NONSENSE, utter nonsense.  And yes, orthodoxy is in the same exact vein as Catholicism. You accuse me of word games because you are not bright enough to understand the logic of conversational english.  So, I got a little more direct for you.  I’ve got many more things that are just damn  creepy  me out about catholicism, but for you in particular, its not going to be worth the breath to explain them (e.g. "don’t repeat your prayers as the pagans" Catholic translation of this verse= "here, take this rosary and say the Our Father 50 times in a row, then you’ll be forgiven".. Dave

Amen! You bring up an interesting but OT point with "Where the Holy Spirit tore down language barriers on the day of Pentecost,…". God put IN the language barrier in the OT at the tower of Babel, then the Holy Ghost removed it at pentecost. Hmmm…  :o) GS

Response:

writes: Shepherds don’t feed flocks.  They watch them, they guide them, they don’t feed them. Shepherd’s *guide* their flocks to new pastures. Matthew 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

But he answered what?  Jesus was answering Satan: "The tempter approached and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become loaves of bread." Matthew 4:3. He wasn’t talking about guiding sheep to new pastures.  You’re making this up. Might I remind you of Pslam 23 (in the KJV): The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever. What does that have to do with Matthew 4:4? And by the way. Nowhere does Matthew 4:4 say that every word that comes from the mouth of God was *written* down in the Bible.  In fact, the Scriptures say otherwise: read the very last paragraph of the Gospel of John: "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written." *You’re* welcome to ignore all these things Jesus did…but I wouldn’t recommend it. Jesus was implying that he should "feed" them on SCRIPTURE, the living Word of God. Ironically, this is what the RCC always twists, alters and ignores. This is why today’s religious hypocrites are either profoundly ignorant of Scripture, or they just don’t care what it says (or both).

Jesus ‘implied’? Wait…you mean He didn’t always speak literally?  How DO you literally take figurative speech? Russ

Response:

Yeah I know, what a waste, you could have been playing bingo.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The catholic church is not invalid.  It never was valid. It’s not christianity.  It’s a hybrid of paganism and christianity. Where Christ specifically says "Avoid calling anyone father, you have but one Father", the catholic church installs millions of them.  Where the bible only shows adults being baptized, the Catholic church only baptizes infants. Where the bible clearly shows that the priest is now useless (the tearing of the veil) the Catholic church would have you believe that he is essential for the forgiveness of your sins. Where the Holy Spirit tore down language barriers on the day of Pentecost, so that all could rightly hear the gospel of truth, the Catholic church for held their services in a dead foreign language which nary a soul understood.  If that wasn’t bad enough, the "priest" did this service with him back turned to the congregation.  How many hundreds of years this charade went on for I don’t know. Sure they hold on to the moral concepts of opposing homosexuality, abortion, and other concepts but weren’t the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus’ day "moral" also?  That was their trump piece.  They held onto their morality and their religion. There is no intercessor between man and God except for the Lord Jesus Christ.  How dare a mortal man think he is somehow worthy of Christ’s place, and worse yet, how dare one mortal man say he is perfect (infallible) in anything?  Even Peter stood corrected by Paul and admitted his wrong and changed his opinion.  How then if the "First Pope" was fallible (and yes, it concerned faith and morals) could the latter one’s become infallible? NONSENSE, utter nonsense.  And yes, orthodoxy is in the same exact vein as Catholicism. You accuse me of word games because you are not bright enough to understand the logic of conversational english.  So, I got a little more direct for you.  I’ve got many more things that are just damn  creepy  me out about catholicism, but for you in particular, its not going to be worth the breath to explain them (e.g. "don’t repeat your prayers as the pagans" Catholic translation of this verse= "here, take this rosary and say the Our Father 50 times in a row, then you’ll be forgiven".. Oh brother, I just wasted 20 minutes answering his first post only to discover now he is another ignorant fundie with a mouth and nothing more than chic tracts to back it up. Plonk.

Response:

Look lady, I spent 12 of the first 18 years of my life in Catholic educational facilities.  I’m not sure what you mean about doing a "song and dance".  I’m just going to assume you watched a few too many bingo balls drop at the local church.  I know your "religion" better than you know it yourself It’s nothing but the twisted machinations of man bent on building up power and wealth for themselves.  It is, in thought and process, the continuation of exactly  that which Jesus came against.  Your fathers are no other than the Scribes and Pharisees that saw to Jesus’ death. It’s all telling to an objective viewer that for the most part, the responders to my post (with the exception of Russ)  have chosen to simply ignore the points I brought up and choose instead to label me a "fundie" (your word) and spit hyperbole. David Dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All Christianity revolves around the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. This we can all agree on. He conquered death itself. Most of us agree that the New Testament is the record of the life and death events of Jesus and the doings of his early church. What then is the FIRST thing that the FIRST gospel writer (matthew) tells us happened immediately after Jesus yielded up the ghost (mathew 27:50-)? Sure the first gospel writer makes sure we know that the earth quaked. I mean that’s pretty phenomenal, we have to know that. He even tells us about graves being opened and people rising from the dead.  Pretty dog-gone amazing stuff…..BUT….that’s not the FIRST physical occurrence he bothers to mention. The FIRST thing Matthew writes to us is "And, behold, the veil in the temple was rent in two". If we needed to know the physical things that transpired from this spiritual event (and obviously Mathew thinks we needed to) then isn’t it quite telling that amidst all of the miraculous physical occurrences, the very first thing he mentions is this comparatively mild physical event of a piece of cloth (veil) being ripped into half? The purpose of the veil in the temple is quite well known.  Only the priests could enter the temple through the veil.  All others were destined to stand on the other side of the veil.  We were clearly not worthy.  Even the priest had to be particularly careful about his purity.  A rope was tied to his foot in case he was found unworthy before God and dropped dead on the spot  a somewhat regular occurrence it seems). So even though Matthew makes sure we know that this veil is no longer needed and has been shredded by the  death of Christ (now we can go to God ourselves), the catholic church reinstituted this procedure in the devil-inspired act they refer to as confession.  These people not only want you to believe that you need the priest to go before God for you, they even ACTUALLY use a veil in their little boxes..(yeah yeah yeah I know, some of the churches quit using the veil recently.  It’s like using that dead language of Latin.  They make minor changes to appease the masses when they seem on the verge of coming out of their coma. "e.g.. yeah, we better investigate this child abuse stuff…..now that people are paying attention"). Now come on people, unless you’re already convicted to be under the great delusion that will come on people who refuse to believe the truth, how on earth could you be so blind to not realize this all too obvious truth? The catholic church takes the most important meaning of Christ’s death and turns it 180 degrees around.  Once you realize this, you will be amazed at what else you will quickly come to see. If you were the only human being ever created, Jesus would have still done exactly what He has done.  He’s in love with you, and He’s waiting for you. May God Bless us all, Dave Let’s go over the torn veil in the temple, and why you have come to the conclusion that the significance has anything to do with discounting the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Regarding the veil, Scott Hahn offers the following According to ancient Jewish beliefs, the worship in Jerusalem’s Temple mirrored the worship of the angels in heaven. The levitical priesthood, the covenant liturgy, the sacrifices served as shadowy representations of heavenly models. Now, as Revelation shows, both heaven and earth participate together in a single act of loving worship. This apocalypse, or unveiling, points back to the cross. Matthew reports that when Jesus died, "the curtain [or veil] of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom" (27:51). Thus, the sanctuary of God was "apocalypsed," unveiled, his dwelling no longer reserved for the high priest alone, Jesus’ redemption unveiled the Holy of Holies, opening God’s Presence to everyone. Heaven and earth could now embrace in intimate love." Your argument doesn’t differ too much from Catholic belief but you fail to understand what the actual significance of the veil is in Catholic tabernacles. It is not to separate or make God inaccessible, but rather it’s an expression of sacredness towards the Divine Presence of Jesus Christ. There is no separation as we are all called to receive the living Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. In effect it is a reminder that we are in His Presence. The Mass itself is a joining of those worshipping both in heaven and on earth. Catholicism may sound strange if you attribute meanings to things that in reality are really just misunderstandings of Catholic customs and traditions. On to Reconciliation. Before He was crucified, Jesus gave Peter the keys to heaven and the power to bind and loose in Matthew 16:18. For background on the significance of the keys see http://members.aol.com/joyinliving7/keys.html In Matthew 18:18 he extends the power to bind and loose on the rest of His Apostles as well. After He rose He told them "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." He breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit, Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained. Jesus did not give everybody the power to bind and loose, in fact He commands us to forgive one another or we ourselves won’t be forgiven. When Peter asked how many times he must forgive his brother, Jesus says 70 x 7, indicating an infinite amount of times. Why would He then tell Peter and the Apostles they could retain the sins of others? The answer is simple, as men they are required to forgive those who offend them, as the visible leaders of Christ’s Church on earth they sit on Moses Seat. Jesus promises the gates of hell will not prevail, not because he could trust in these men to be perfect, rather because He promised the Spirit to guide them. You read scripture but then you have to do a song and dance to try and prove Jesus meant anything else rather than what He said. Study your history, learn the significance of different Catholic beliefs before you come here with your own misconceptions and tell everyone unless they believe like you do they are deluded. It’s rather pompous to come into a Catholic newsgroup making insulting remarks when you haven’t done your homework first. I’m sure you’re an expert on what you believe, but that doesn’t make you an expert on what Catholics believe. I will submit that if you understood what we believe and why, you would be quite impressed, we have a history, not always good, but we have 2000 years of academic and spiritual wisdom under our belts, you guys are still toddlers in comparison. Humility is a virtue.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All Christianity revolves around the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. This we can all agree on. He conquered death itself. Most of us agree that the New Testament is the record of the life and death events of Jesus and the doings of his early church. What then is the FIRST thing that the FIRST gospel writer (matthew) tells us happened immediately after Jesus yielded up the ghost (mathew 27:50-)? Sure the first gospel writer makes sure we know that the earth quaked. I mean that’s pretty phenomenal, we have to know that. He even tells us about graves being opened and people rising from the dead.  Pretty dog-gone amazing stuff…..BUT….that’s not the FIRST physical occurrence he bothers to mention. The FIRST thing Matthew writes to us is "And, behold, the veil in the temple was rent in two". If we needed to know the physical things that transpired from this spiritual event (and obviously Mathew thinks we needed to) then isn’t it quite telling that amidst all of the miraculous physical occurrences, the very first thing he mentions is this comparatively mild physical event of a piece of cloth (veil) being ripped into half? The purpose of the veil in the temple is quite well known.  Only the priests could enter the temple through the veil.  All others were destined to stand on the other side of the veil.  We were clearly not worthy.  Even the priest had to be particularly careful about his purity.  A rope was tied to his foot in case he was found unworthy before God and dropped dead on the spot  a somewhat regular occurrence it seems). So even though Matthew makes sure we know that this veil is no longer needed and has been shredded by the  death of Christ (now we can go to God ourselves), the catholic church reinstituted this procedure in the devil-inspired act they refer to as confession.  These people not only want you to believe that you need the priest to go before God for you, they even ACTUALLY use a veil in their little boxes..(yeah yeah yeah I know, some of the churches quit using the veil recently.  It’s like using that dead language of Latin.  They make minor changes to appease the masses when they seem on the verge of coming out of their coma. "e.g.. yeah, we better investigate this child abuse stuff…..now that people are paying attention"). Now come on people, unless you’re already convicted to be under the great delusion that will come on people who refuse to believe the truth, how on earth could you be so blind to not realize this all too obvious truth? The catholic church takes the most important meaning of Christ’s death and turns it 180 degrees around.  Once you realize this, you will be amazed at what else you will quickly come to see. If you were the only human being ever created, Jesus would have still done exactly what He has done.  He’s in love with you, and He’s waiting for you. May God Bless us all, Dave Let’s go over the torn veil in the temple, and why you have come to the conclusion that the significance has anything to do with discounting the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Regarding the veil, Scott Hahn offers the following According to ancient Jewish beliefs, the worship in Jerusalem’s Temple mirrored the worship of the angels in heaven. The levitical priesthood, the covenant liturgy, the sacrifices served as shadowy representations of heavenly models. Now, as Revelation shows, both heaven and earth participate together in a single act of loving worship. This apocalypse, or unveiling, points back to the cross. Matthew reports that when Jesus died, "the curtain [or veil] of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom" (27:51). Thus, the sanctuary of God was "apocalypsed," unveiled, his dwelling no longer reserved for the high priest alone, Jesus’ redemption unveiled the Holy of Holies, opening God’s Presence to everyone. Heaven and earth could now embrace in intimate love." Your argument doesn’t differ too much from Catholic belief but you fail to understand what the actual significance of the veil is in Catholic tabernacles. It is not to separate or make God inaccessible, but rather it’s an expression of sacredness towards the Divine Presence of Jesus Christ. There is no separation as we are all called to receive the living Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. In effect it is a reminder that we are in His Presence. The Mass itself is a joining of those worshipping both in heaven and on earth. Catholicism may sound strange if you attribute meanings to things that in reality are really just misunderstandings of Catholic customs and traditions. On to Reconciliation. Before He was crucified, Jesus gave Peter the keys to heaven and the power to bind and loose in Matthew 16:18. For background on the significance of the keys see http://members.aol.com/joyinliving7/keys.html In Matthew 18:18 he extends the power to bind and loose on the rest of His Apostles as well. After He rose He told them "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." He breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit, Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained. Jesus did not give everybody the power to bind and loose, in fact He commands us to forgive one another or we ourselves won’t be forgiven. When Peter asked how many times he must forgive his brother, Jesus says 70 x 7, indicating an infinite amount of times. Why would He then tell Peter and the Apostles they could retain the sins of others? The answer is simple, as men they are required to forgive those who offend them, as the visible leaders of Christ’s Church on earth they sit on Moses Seat. Jesus promises the gates of hell will not prevail, not because he could trust in these men to be perfect, rather because He promised the Spirit to guide them. You read scripture but then you have to do a song and dance to try and prove Jesus meant anything else rather than what He said. Study your history, learn the significance of different Catholic beliefs before you come here with your own misconceptions and tell everyone unless they believe like you do they are deluded. It’s rather pompous to come into a Catholic newsgroup making insulting remarks when you haven’t done your homework first. I’m sure you’re an expert on what you believe, but that doesn’t make you an expert on what Catholics believe. I will submit that if you understood what we believe and why, you would be quite impressed, we have a history, not always good, but we have 2000 years of academic and spiritual wisdom under our belts,

 you guys are still toddlers in comparison. Humility is a virtue."Yes it sure

is, I hope to one day have it." "have a nice evening." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Shepherds don’t feed flocks.  They watch them, they guide them, they don’t feed them. Shepherd’s *guide* their flocks to new pastures. Matthew 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. But he answered what?  Jesus was answering Satan: "The tempter approached and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become loaves of bread." Matthew 4:3. He wasn’t talking about guiding sheep to new pastures.  You’re making this up. Might I remind you of Pslam 23 (in the KJV): The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever. What does that have to do with Matthew 4:4? And by the way. Nowhere does Matthew 4:4 say that every word that comes from the mouth of God was *written* down in the Bible.  In fact, the Scriptures say otherwise: read the very last paragraph of the Gospel of John: "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written." *You’re* welcome to ignore all these things Jesus did…but I wouldn’t recommend it. Jesus was implying that he should "feed" them on SCRIPTURE, the living Word of God. Ironically, this is what the RCC always twists, alters and ignores. This is why today’s religious hypocrites are either profoundly ignorant of Scripture, or they just don’t care what it says (or both). Jesus ‘implied’? Wait…you mean He didn’t always speak literally?  How DO you literally take figurative speech? Russ

No wonder you are so confused! You are replying to TWO people and posts as if they were one! And, both of them as if they were from *me*, which they were NOT. Gee, you ARE confused. And, you wonder why I don’t answer your blather?!? You’re not worth the effort! Besides, clearly you are not predestined to know Jesus anyway; stick with your father, Satan and his Catholic church. You don’t posses enough courage and free thought to know Jesus independently; you are better off mindlessly taking orders from that lying church anyway. GS

Response:

Where it is some comfort to see reponders at least support their opinions (as wrong as I know they are), there is a rebellious caustic nature to you. Of all the punishment God used in the bible, none was as dramatic as the one he used for Jezebel. Dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Look lady, I spent 12 of the first 18 years of my life in Catholic educational facilities.  I’m not sure what you mean about doing a "song and dance".  I’m just going to assume you watched a few too many bingo balls drop at the local church.  I know your "religion" better than you know it yourself Yet you thought the veil in the tabernacle was there to separate people from God. It’s nothing but the twisted machinations of man bent on building up power and wealth for themselves.  It is, in thought and process, the continuation of exactly  that which Jesus came against.  Your fathers are no other than the Scribes and Pharisees that saw to Jesus’ death. Remember the measure which you use will be used to measure you. We all are guilty of Jesus’ death, even you. It’s all telling to an objective viewer that for the most part, the responders to my post (with the exception of Russ)  have chosen to simply ignore the points I brought up and choose instead to label me a "fundie" (your word) and spit hyperbole. I address your points, you lost your cool and started spewing forth a bunch of fundie foolishness. I can label you a fundie as I was once one myself and I know every trick in the book as there really isn’t all that much to know. Rather than discussing what I took the time to write in accordance with 1 Peter 3:15-16, you went with ad hominem attacks, and whined like a child. We get guys like you in here all the time Dave, and most of them behave just like you have now when faced with counter arguments. GoAT. Dave All Christianity revolves around the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. This we can all agree on. He conquered death itself. Most of us agree that the New Testament is the record of the life and death events of Jesus and the doings of his early church. What then is the FIRST thing that the FIRST gospel writer (matthew) tells us happened immediately after Jesus yielded up the ghost (mathew 27:50-)? Sure the first gospel writer makes sure we know that the earth quaked. I mean that’s pretty phenomenal, we have to know that. He even tells us about graves being opened and people rising from the dead.  Pretty dog-gone amazing stuff…..BUT….that’s not the FIRST physical occurrence he bothers to mention. The FIRST thing Matthew writes to us is "And, behold, the veil in the temple was rent in two". If we needed to know the physical things that transpired from this spiritual event (and obviously Mathew thinks we needed to) then isn’t it quite telling that amidst all of the miraculous physical occurrences, the very first thing he mentions is this comparatively mild physical event of a piece of cloth (veil) being ripped into half? The purpose of the veil in the temple is quite well known.  Only the priests could enter the temple through the veil.  All others were destined to stand on the other side of the veil.  We were clearly not worthy.  Even the priest had to be particularly careful about his purity.  A rope was tied to his foot in case he was found unworthy before God and dropped dead on the spot  a somewhat regular occurrence it seems). So even though Matthew makes sure we know that this veil is no longer needed and has been shredded by the  death of Christ (now we can go to God ourselves), the catholic church reinstituted this procedure in the devil-inspired act they refer to as confession.  These people not only want you to believe that you need the priest to go before God for you, they even ACTUALLY use a veil in their little boxes..(yeah yeah yeah I know, some of the churches quit using the veil recently.  It’s like using that dead language of Latin.  They make minor changes to appease the masses when they seem on the verge of coming out of their coma. "e.g.. yeah, we better investigate this child abuse stuff…..now that people are paying attention"). Now come on people, unless you’re already convicted to be under the great delusion that will come on people who refuse to believe the truth, how on earth could you be so blind to not realize this all too obvious truth? The catholic church takes the most important meaning of Christ’s death and turns it 180 degrees around.  Once you realize this, you will be amazed at what else you will quickly come to see. If you were the only human being ever created, Jesus would have still done exactly what He has done.  He’s in love with you, and He’s waiting for you. May God Bless us all, Dave Let’s go over the torn veil in the temple, and why you have come to the conclusion that the significance has anything to do with discounting the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Regarding the veil, Scott Hahn offers the following According to ancient Jewish beliefs, the worship in Jerusalem’s Temple mirrored the worship of the angels in heaven. The levitical priesthood, the covenant liturgy, the sacrifices served as shadowy representations of heavenly models. Now, as Revelation shows, both heaven and earth participate together in a single act of loving worship. This apocalypse, or unveiling, points back to the cross. Matthew reports that when Jesus died, "the curtain [or veil] of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom" (27:51). Thus, the sanctuary of God was "apocalypsed," unveiled, his dwelling no longer reserved for the high priest alone, Jesus’ redemption unveiled the Holy of Holies, opening God’s Presence to everyone. Heaven and earth could now embrace in intimate love." Your argument doesn’t differ too much from Catholic belief but you fail to understand what the actual significance of the veil is in Catholic tabernacles. It is not to separate or make God inaccessible, but rather it’s an expression of sacredness towards the Divine Presence of Jesus Christ. There is no separation as we are all called to receive the living Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. In effect it is a reminder that we are in His Presence. The Mass itself is a joining of those worshipping both in heaven and on earth. Catholicism may sound strange if you attribute meanings to things that in reality are really just misunderstandings of Catholic customs and traditions. On to Reconciliation. Before He was crucified, Jesus gave Peter the keys to heaven and the power to bind and loose in Matthew 16:18. For background on the significance of the keys see http://members.aol.com/joyinliving7/keys.html In Matthew 18:18 he extends the power to bind and loose on the rest of His Apostles as well. After He rose He told them "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." He breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit, Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained. Jesus did not give everybody the power to bind and loose, in fact He commands us to forgive one another or we ourselves won’t be forgiven. When Peter asked how many times he must forgive his brother, Jesus says 70 x 7, indicating an infinite amount of times. Why would He then tell Peter and the Apostles they could retain the sins of others? The answer is simple, as men they are required to forgive those who offend them, as the visible leaders of Christ’s Church on earth they sit on Moses Seat. Jesus promises the gates of hell will not prevail, not because he could trust in these men to be perfect, rather because He promised the Spirit to guide them. You read scripture but then you have to do a song and dance to try and prove Jesus meant anything else rather than what He said. Study your history, learn the significance of different Catholic beliefs before you come here with your own misconceptions and tell everyone unless they believe like you do they are deluded. It’s rather pompous to come into a Catholic newsgroup making insulting remarks when you haven’t done your homework first. I’m sure you’re an expert on what you believe, but that doesn’t make you an expert on what Catholics believe. I will submit that if you understood what we believe and why, you would be quite impressed, we have a history, not always good, but we have 2000 years of academic and spiritual wisdom under our belts, you guys are still toddlers in comparison.

… read more »

Response:

……clearly you are not predestined to know Jesus

I’d be interested in your reconciliation of these statements Gary.  It seems that if you are "presdestined", then "courage and free thought" are not necessary to "know Jesus".

Response:

So even though Matthew makes sure we know that this veil is no longer needed and has been shredded by the  death of Christ (now we can go to God ourselves), the catholic church reinstituted this procedure in the devil-inspired act they refer to as confession.  

What a load of bull. Just shows you the lengths anti-Catholics will go to to attempt to justify their hatred.

Response:

The catholic church is not invalid.  It never was valid. It’s not christianity.  It’s a hybrid of paganism and christianity.

Another lie. The Catholic Church is Christianity in it’s FULLNESS. Where Christ specifically says "Avoid calling anyone father, you have but one Father", the catholic church installs millions of them.

Your lack of biblical knowledge exposed for all to see.  Where the bible only shows adults being baptized, the Catholic church only baptizes infants.

Entire households were baptized, households include infants. Where the bible clearly shows that the priest is now useless (the tearing of the veil)

You are totally imersed in ignorance aren’t you. "priest" did this service with him back turned to the congregation.

As in his leading us before God. That should have never been done away with and should be brought back.

Response:

worth the effort! Besides, clearly you are not predestined to know Jesus anyway;

Russ knows Jesus far better than you. stick with your father, Satan and his Catholic church.

Satan is YOUR father Schooley. And the Catholic Church does not belong to Satan, it belongs to Jesus.

Response:

writes: No wonder you are so confused! You are replying to TWO people and posts as if they were one! And, both of them as if they were from *me*, which they were NOT. Gee, you ARE confused. And, you wonder why I don’t answer your blather?!? You’re not worth the effort! Besides, clearly you are not predestined to know Jesus anyway; stick with your father, Satan and his Catholic church. You don’t posses enough courage and free thought to know Jesus independently; you are better off mindlessly taking orders from that lying church anyway.

So you don’t actually have any proof or citations to scripture to make? That’s what I thought. Russ

Response:

Wow, what wit. Dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So even though Matthew makes sure we know that this veil is no longer needed and has been shredded by the  death of Christ (now we can go to God ourselves), the catholic church reinstituted this procedure in the devil-inspired act they refer to as confession. What a load of bull. Just shows you the lengths anti-Catholics will go to to attempt to justify their hatred.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Point 2 <"Lord thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee." Jesus commanded him, "Feed my sheep." (John 21: 15-17) -This clearly shows Jesus giving the duty of shepherding the flock that Jesus talks about in John 10: 14-16. Shepherds don’t feed flocks.  They watch them, they guide them, they don’t feed them. Shepherd’s *guide* their flocks to new pastures. Matthew 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Jesus was implying that he should "feed" them on SCRIPTURE, the living Word of God. Ironically, this is what the RCC always twists, alters and ignores. This is why today’s religious hypocrites are either profoundly ignorant of Scripture, or they just don’t care what it says (or both).

what about the Gospel according to thomas?  why don’t you study that part of the "word of god" or how about Mary’s or Peter’s supposedly they wrote their own as well.  There are more "words of God" that never made it to paper, like the "teachings that would fill entire libraries…" if they were all written down.

Response:

Wow, what wit.

What part of John 20:23 didn’t you understand? "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." — Jesus -Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave So even though Matthew makes sure we know that this veil is no longer needed and has been shredded by the  death of Christ (now we can go to God ourselves), the catholic church reinstituted this procedure in the devil-inspired act they refer to as confession. What a load of bull. Just shows you the lengths anti-Catholics will go to to attempt to justify their hatred.

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Response:

So even though Matthew makes sure we know that this veil is no longer needed and has been shredded by the  death of Christ (now we can go to God ourselves), the catholic church reinstituted this procedure in the devil-inspired act they refer to as confession. What a load of bull. Just shows you the lengths anti-Catholics will go to to attempt to justify their hatred.

"You know at a real low point in my life I went to confession, I was not really sure if I totally believed in any of it. But this old gentle priest listened to me for about 40 minutes in I guess its called face to face confession. He said I could receive communion but I still did not believe in the real presence and such so I choose not to. I may blabber on about RCC this or that, but at that point in my life I needed an ear and this priest was nice enough to listen. So to be fair I have to say, there are many fine priests, sad thing is I think they get left out in the rain alot by the bureaucracy."

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All Christianity revolves around the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. This we can all agree on.

Even Catholic liars?? He conquered death itself. Most of us agree that the New Testament is the record of the life and death events of Jesus and the doings of his early church. What then is the FIRST thing that the FIRST gospel writer (matthew) tells us happened immediately after Jesus yielded up the ghost (mathew 27:50-)?

I thought the first Gospel was Mark’s? Anyways, how do you know Matthew wrote that Gospel, since the earliest manuscripts have no names attached to them? Guess which institution vouched for their authorship? (The lying one) Sure the first gospel writer makes sure we know that the earth quaked. I mean that’s pretty phenomenal, we have to know that. He even tells us about graves being opened and people rising from the dead.

Not "people", Dave. Matthew calls them "saints." So, I guess not only living people can be called saints?   Pretty dog-gone – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – amazing stuff…..BUT….that’s not the FIRST physical occurrence he bothers to mention. The FIRST thing Matthew writes to us is "And, behold, the veil in the temple was rent in two". If we needed to know the physical things that transpired from this spiritual event (and obviously Mathew thinks we needed to) then isn’t it quite telling that amidst all of the miraculous physical occurrences, the very first thing he mentions is this comparatively mild physical event of a piece of cloth (veil) being ripped into half? The purpose of the veil in the temple is quite well known.  Only the priests could enter the temple through the veil.  All others were destined to stand on the other side of the veil.  We were clearly not worthy.  Even the priest had to be particularly careful about his purity.  A rope was tied to his foot in case he was found unworthy before God and dropped dead on the spot  a somewhat regular occurrence it seems). So even though Matthew makes sure we know that this veil is no longer needed and has been shredded by the  death of Christ (now we can go to God ourselves), the catholic church reinstituted this procedure in the devil-inspired act they refer to as confession.  These people not only want you to believe that you need the priest to go before God for you, they even ACTUALLY use a veil in their little boxes..(yeah yeah yeah I know, some of the churches quit using the veil recently.  It’s like using that dead language of Latin . . .

Blah, blah, and so forth. At this point, I can see I’m dealing with someone who hasn’t a clue. Not worth it. May God Bless us all, Dave

No, . . . God bless YOU, Dave.

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