Catholics & Catholicism » Roman Catholic Mass

Paedocommunion profanes the Lord's Supper.

admin — Sun, 02 Mar 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I only read the Anglican list. It’s called "alt.religion.christian.episcopal".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would you gents mind terribly if this thread on children’s communion was no longer cross-posted to the Anglican list? Anglicans will give communion to tiny babies if the parents do not object, and I find the mention of "unworthiness" etc in connection with children very distressing. mucho thanko It isn’t posted to an Anglican list, it is posted to Episcopal, Lutheran, and Presbyterian lists. All of these Churches have some level of debate going on about this topic, so I think you are out of line. RG The rest of us were doing just fine in our lives, until you spammed this "subject(?)"across several boards, then blamed the terrorism of 911 on all those who Personally, I like Raul, Arco, Dana and especially Amy and hope the best for them. But this topic, though it has devolved into a "food fight" (as Raul like to put it) was a target rich environment for Smackdown which I thought Daniel’s contribution was enormously funny and timely. I am delighted that you weighed in, and just coming back from a splendid week of reinvigorating the Durango, Colorado economy (I am THE snow magnet) finding your well articulated comments a joy. But someone here needs to feed the trolls and while I have been directing much of my writing efforts towards my book, it has been a gas to shift gears a bit and poke at the usual list of suspects who all through a similar personality defect oddly hang out in this den of foolishness. hold differing views; having then to resort to weaseling to get out of such an outrageous claim, making your own declarations out to be a joke, thereby leaving your sole defender hanging in the wind of her serious desire to go along with you. Oh come on, I had a great belly laugh at the WTC comment. The visual imagery of OBL and his gang plotting a plane crash into a financial icon because word snuck in that various presbyterians were adopting a paedocommunion revolution was excellent, and should have delighted Ben H. who has reported an acute case of boredom from the lack of stimulating/provocative dialogue. Many here have been in rare form!

Response:

I hear you, but I have several highly educated Catholic friends, who dispute your description. They say the RCC teaches that it ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY is changed into the blood and body. Yes, and not only is the actual, physical, flesh and blood of Christ changed into the elements by the officiating Priest and then ingested, but first the Lord is again crucified in every Mass.

We can actually clear this up very quickly by letting the "horse’s mouth" speak: –begin quote– Council of Trent Thirteenth Session DECREE CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct13.html CHAPTER I. On the real presence of our Lord Jesus Christ in the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist. In the first place, the holy Synod teaches, and openly and simply professes, that, in the august sacrament of the holy Eucharist, after the consecration of the bread and wine, our Lord Jesus Christ, true God and man, is truly, really, and substantially contained under the species of those sensible things. For neither are these things mutually repugnant,-that our Saviour Himself always sitteth at the right hand of the Father in heaven, according to the natural mode of existing, and that, nevertheless, He be, in many other places, sacramentally present to us in his own substance, by a manner of existing, which, though we can scarcely express it in words, yet can we, by the understanding illuminated by faith, conceive, and we ought most firmly to believe, to be possible unto God: for thus all our forefathers, as many as were in the true Church of Christ, who have treated of this most holy Sacrament, have most openly professed, that our Redeemer instituted this so admirable a sacrament at the last supper, when, after the blessing of the bread and wine, He testified, in express and clear words, that He gave them His own very Body, and His own Blood; words which,-recorded by the holy Evangelists, and afterwards repeated by Saint Paul, whereas they carry with them that proper and most manifest meaning in which they were understood by the Fathers,-it is indeed a crime the most unworthy that they should be wrested, by certain contentions and wicked men, to fictitious and imaginary tropes, whereby the verity of the flesh and blood of Christ is denied, contrary to the universal sense of the Church, which, as the pillar and ground of truth, has detested, as satanical, these inventions devised by impious men; she recognising, with a mind ever grateful and unforgetting, this most excellent benefit of Christ. –end quote– Note what is being said here: 1. Christ is *substantially contained* in the species of bread and wine. That is, the accidents (the physical properties) of bread and wine remain, while the "essence" of them are gone and replaced with Christ. (see http://www.newadvent.org/summa/407505.htm) 2. Christ’s presence is clearly stated as being sacramental, not physical. 3. Christ is said to always sit at the right hand of the Father as His natural mode of existing dictates, but his presence in the Eucharist is 100% sacramental and substantial. As Christ, being God, is omnipresent, it is hardly beyond logic to believe that he would be present sacramentally in the bread and wine. As further proof, Aquinas denies that Christ is present locally in the Eucharist here: –begin quote– Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica III.76.5 http://www.newadvent.org/summa/407605.htm Whether Christ’s body is in this sacrament as in a place? As stated above (1, ad 3; 3), Christ’s body is in this sacrament not after the proper manner of dimensive quantity, but rather after the manner of substance. But every body occupying a place is in the place according to the manner of dimensive quantity, namely, inasmuch as it is commensurate with the place according to its dimensive quantity. Hence it remains that Christ’s body is not in this sacrament as in a place, but after the manner of substance, that is to say, in that way in which substance is contained by dimensions; because the substance of Christ’s body succeeds the substance of bread in this sacrament: hence as the substance of bread was not locally under its dimensions, but after the manner of substance, so neither is the substance of Christ’s body. Nevertheless the substance of Christ’s body is not the subject of those dimensions, as was the substance of the bread: and therefore the substance of the bread was there locally by reason of its dimensions, because it was compared with that place through the medium of its own dimensions; but the substance of Christ’s body is compared with that place through the medium of foreign dimensions, so that, on the contrary, the proper dimensions of Christ’s body are compared with that place through the medium of substance; which is contrary to the notion of a located body. Hence in no way is Christ’s body locally in this sacrament. –end quote– In other words, since Christ’s local body (always in heaven at the right hand of the Father) cannot conform to the spatial dimensions of bread and wine, he is not present locally (or physically), but substantially, and in the end, spiritually. Aquinas also says here http://www.newadvent.org/summa/407606.htm that since Christ’s body is in heaven, it cannot be "moved around" when the host or chalice are moved. Ergo, if He can’t be moved, he can’t be there locally or physically, which would make him "movable" in the host and chalice. Christ’s presence is substantial, not physical, and anyone who has told you otherwise is mistaken. As for the mistaken idea that Christ is continually "re-sacrificed" in the Mass, allow me to let the ancient bishop of Constantinople, John Chrysostom, instruct us: –begin quote- St. John Chrysostom Patriarch of Contantinople, lived 347-407 Homilies on the Epistles to the Hebrews, #17 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240217.htm "He hath appeared by the sacrifice of Himself" (he says), that is, "He hath appeared," unto God, and drawn near [unto Him]. For do not [think] because the High Priest was wont to do this oftentimes in the year . . . So that henceforward this is done in vain, although it is done; for what need is there of medicines where there are no wounds? On this account He ordained offerings "continually," because of their want of power, and that a remembrance of sins might be made. What then? do not we offer every day? We offer indeed, but making a remembrance of His death, and this [remembrance] is one and not many. How is it one, and not many? Inasmuch as that [Sacrifice] was once for all offered, [and] carried into the Holy of Holies. This is a figure of that [sacrifice] and this remembrance of that. For we always offer the same, not one sheep now and tomorrow another, but always the same thing: so that the sacrifice is one. And yet by this reasoning, since the offering is made in many places, are there many Christs? but Christ is one everywhere, being complete here and complete there also, one Body. As then while offered in many places, He is one body and not many bodies; so also [He is] one sacrifice. He is our High Priest, who offered the sacrifice that cleanses us. That we offer now also, which was then offered, which cannot be exhausted. This is done in remembrance of what was then done. For (saith He) "do this in remembrance of Me." (Luke xxii. 19.) It is not another sacrifice, as the High Priest, but we offer always the same, or rather we perform a remembrance of a Sacrifice. –end quote– There are not multiple sacrifices, or re-sacrifices of Christ, but a re-presentation of the one Sacrifice of the Cross. Dan — Daniel S. Vieira |"Quid enim est stultius quam Professor of Sociology | incerta pro certis habere, http://www.danielvieira.com | falsa pro veris?" — Cicero

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Or let’s examine the process of stuffing crackers and grape juice in your face and the transmogrification of these things into Jesus McNuggets. How many times must Christ die and become a sacrifice before you are finally saved? At what point in the manufacturing process does the cracker turn into Jesus? Before or after the ovens? (this sounds so Auschwitz-like). When does the Welch’s Grape Juice carry Jesus’s blood and what type is it O, A, B, or AB? Or like the marriage in Capernaum, does it not only go from junk wine to good wine, but also picks up some DNA? Does these elements get processed in a Kosher fashion and if not who goes to Hell for serving unclean foods? LOL! This is funny stuff, man! I almost had a stroke due to laughing so hard! In reality, I’d just like to point out that no denomination believes that Christ is *physically* eaten in the Supper. Catholics believe the bread and wine ares *substantially* changed into the Body and Blood of Christ, but remain physically bread and wine, and Christ *physically* remains in heaven. Lutherans believe that Christ is substantially present *with* the bread and wine, but not physically present. The "classic" Presbyterian view is that while the communicant eats bread and wine, the Holy Spirit feeds the person spirutally on the Body and Blood of Christ. (Many current Presbyterian churches in the USA have gone to the Baptist viewpoint). The Baptist view (shared by most Evangelical churches) is that the bread and wine are symbols only of the Body and Blood of Christ sacrificed on the Cross. In any case, no one believes that Christ is *physically* present in the Supper, so your "Jesus McNuggets" statement is a bit off, yet rather funny. Dan

Dear Dan, I’ve never heard from you around here before, but I hope you’ll post more often. Your credential as a "Professor of Sociology" is BADLY needed in this ng. Someone should do a dissertation on: "The Emotional Gratification of Trolls: Dogma and Personality Dysfunction In An Internet News Group". Can YOU explain what’s going on around here…and why???

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just for the record here, the audience should understand that "Reuben Hick" rejects covenant/infant Baptism… Because I am not dense enough to confuse genetic descendants of Abraham with adopted sons/daughters. IOW, I don’t subscribe to religious rituals centered on unregenerated infants for the amusement and appeasement of adults and their demand for formulatic rituals not too distant from the doctrines supporting pagan infant sacrifice. and last I heard, argued that the Lord’s Supper was just a fellowship meal, something akin to getting together with the guys to order a pizza. (sigh) I never said it was "akin to getting together with the guys to order a pizza" – it was assembling the herd and collecting an order in the McDonald’s drive thru. Clearly you missed the fact that "whenever you do this" along with fact that common food items were used, and from inferences made through Paul’s sharp rebukes directed at the abusers in Corinth, that whenever believers gather to eat, rememberance of what Christ did should be present. Then I went and gave examples and support for such reasoning. If his view has changed I’m sure it is at ~best~ Zwinglian. Let’s see, from the decidedly Zwinglian "The Sincere Confession of the Ministers of the Church of Zurich" (circa 1545): "…Christ’s flesh has done its work on earth, having been offered for our salvation; now it no longer benefits on earth and is no longer here." And you "reject" the Zwinglian view, so it leaves me with the questions: Do you believe Christ’s work is not done and that he lied when he said "It is Finished"? Do you believe that Christ’s flesh is socked away somewhere on Earth because it is still needed? Or let’s examine the process of stuffing crackers and grape juice in your face and the transmogrification of these things into Jesus McNuggets. How many times must Christ die and become a sacrifice before you are finally saved? At what point in the manufacturing process does the cracker turn into Jesus? Before or after the ovens? (this sounds so Auschwitz-like). When does the Welch’s Grape Juice carry Jesus’s blood and what type is it O, A, B, or AB? Or like the marriage in Capernaum, does it not only go from junk wine to good wine, but also picks up some DNA? Does these elements get processed in a Kosher fashion and if not who goes to Hell for serving unclean foods? So is Christ’s flesh and blood stored in some dark cabinet at the church until its convenient for you folks to eat Him, or do you leave Jesus on the shelf until the last moment at the grocery store? Ok, maybe you don’t go with the actual flesh and blood at consumption time – maybe you are into the dynamic change the instant you eat. Do you get some perverted jollies from the thought that hours later you are going to flush Jesus down the commode? Or does Jesus leave your body at some point in the digestive process? What happens if you cough or regurgitate? Do you have to mop Jesus off the back of the pew or someone’s sweater? Do you think that you are instantly more holy the moment you have the Eucharist? If so, then why not do it 24/7 and you may actually be as Holy as God Himself. Just explain your weight gain and drunkeness (assuming real wine here) as a spiritual condition. A DUI for Jesus. "Look officer, I am this close…" (holding fingers a half inch apart) "… from being more holy than the Pope" (hiccup). "that’s not an open container, that’s Jesus’s home back there, care for a swig?" Otherwise, try explaining why the Zwinglian view is so worthy of your rejection.

Rueben, How do you justify standing on the outside of a tradition and throwing stones? This NG is Episcopalian. Obviously, you have little if any understanding of this tradition. The above post is simply rude, and robs anything you say of any legitimacy, at least as I read it. In case you didn’t understand, I disagree with everything you have said. And I don’t have the patience to walk you through an entire course in understanding Anglicanism. Read up on the topic, and then come back. Maybe then we can dialogue, instead of debate. Terry

Response:

Terry, although I am conservative Presbyterian, and my denomination does not practice paedocommunion per se, my family and I do, as do some others in our congregation. Rueben’s words above remind me of Dr. Jack Hyles, when, in a sermon quite a few years ago now, he likened Jesus’ body on the cross to a Big Mac, and Christ’s precious blood to the special sauce. It’s appalling and heart-wrenching. Amy

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Or let’s examine the process of stuffing crackers and grape juice in your face and the transmogrification of these things into Jesus McNuggets. How many times must Christ die and become a sacrifice before you are finally saved? At what point in the manufacturing process does the cracker turn into Jesus? Before or after the ovens? (this sounds so Auschwitz-like). When does the Welch’s Grape Juice carry Jesus’s blood and what type is it O, A, B, or AB? Or like the marriage in Capernaum, does it not only go from junk wine to good wine, but also picks up some DNA? Does these elements get processed in a Kosher fashion and if not who goes to Hell for serving unclean foods? LOL! This is funny stuff, man! I almost had a stroke due to laughing so hard! In reality, I’d just like to point out that no denomination believes that Christ is *physically* eaten in the Supper. Catholics believe the bread and wine ares *substantially* changed into the Body and Blood of Christ, but remain physically bread and wine, and Christ *physically* remains in heaven. I hear you, but I have several highly educated Catholic friends, who dispute your description. They say the RCC teaches that it ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY is changed into the blood and body. .

Yes, and not only is the actual, physical, flesh and blood of Christ changed into the elements by the officiating Priest and then ingested, but first the Lord is again crucified in every Mass. At least that is what we have always been told and read about the Roman Catholic practices. J&R — GoldRush For Scriptures and Christian Studies, visit http://www.mlode.com/~jrrush

Response:

What we see, is that ~you~ have caused division amongst believers by pretending you want to discuss a practice, when you really desire to sell it. You are the one first to take sides and get all defensive. The rest of us were doing just fine in our lives, until you spammed this "subject(?)"across several boards, then blamed the terrorism of 911 on all those who hold differing views; having then to resort to weaseling to get out of such an outrageous claim, making your own declarations out to be a joke, thereby leaving your sole defender hanging in the wind of her serious desire to go along with you. Raul, you are a real beaut . . . J&R — GoldRush For Scriptures and Christian Studies, visit http://www.mlode.com/~jrrush

Response:

How about an older person with a little hardening of the arteries, your mother and the strong pain medication she takes, the slow boy, the retarded girl, etc. etc. You see how we are now turning the Supper into dividing the body of Christ, which is just the sin Paul is writing against, which is in fact what it means to eat unworthily. (1 Cor. 11) Sin against the body is what makes one unworthy to partake of comm-UNION, not if you have your MENSA card.

Let’s not forget reprobates and plants and animals too – maybe even get SETI involved and link up with Area 51 so that alien life, it it exists, can join in. Let’s all join together and in one great harmonious universal loving body and loudly reject clear God inspired scripture because OUR ideal of perfect UNION prevails over any meaning of the eucharist! Face it, you have thrown yourself over the edge, this wasn’t a casual misstep on the slippery slope, this was a running jump into an Olympic class swan dive with a half twist into the chasm of biblical deconstructionalism. When you deliberately ignore the introspection, deliberately delete remembrance, pooh-pooh any conscience acknowledgement of what is taking place, you have perverted the Eucharist into a mindless pagan ritual that embodies some magic and burning sacrifices to the gods in order to earn their fickle favor. Why else would you two fall over each other in a race to find a way to mock God’s institution for the sake of a mental retard who otherwise you would curse if they stood in your way? (I think I am going over the top here… time to go read a book or something.)

Response:

May God have mercy on your soul.

I thank you for your concern, and He already has. Praise God! (Seriously, are you getting a little wound up on this topic?)

Response:

Since when? Paedocommunion is a ten cent word that means communion for infants and toddlers. If you have some child prodigy that can stand up and defend the faith against all attackers, then why must you negotiate an age with someone whose kid is a half-witted dunce with severe attention disorders? As if it matters to you anyway. That is why I think Raul is rather obsessive here on the topic. Which is OK, because a bunch of us have crawled out of the woodwork to "punish" him for advocating this topic. Sort of a dysfunctional usenet family reunion. But it seems that Raul is perseverating on matters that really don’t concern him.

For the record now, even my youngest is of the age where he can master complex video games, and none of my Children have taken Communion. I have always had a higher standard with re: to age than even the Session at the Church I attend. However, I do respect the case the paedocommunionists have put forth. Studying issues like this is fun for me, and when someone can actually make me question what my understanding is they have accomplished something. The paedocommunionists have succeeded. I will continue to study and cogitate. Raul Goulden — Augustine (354-430): Let no one say to me, What hath Donatus said, what hath Parmenian said, or Pontius, or any of them. For we must not allow even Catholic bishops, if at any time, perchance, they are in error, to hold any opinion contrary to the Canonical Scriptures of God (De Unitate Ecclesiae, Caput XI,

French bishops speak out against military action against Iraq

admin — Tue, 15 Oct 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

French bishops speak out against military action against Iraq (EXCERPT) Tue Oct 15, 8:59 AM ET PARIS – France’s Roman Catholic bishops said Tuesday that a military strike against Iraq is not justified, and warned that a clash could widen the gulf between the West and the Arab world and strengthen radical Islam. "War cannot be considered as a means among others to be chosen in function of… interests and opportunities," said a statement from the Conference of Bishops of France. The bishops said that the decision to go to war is so grave that it can only be taken as a final resort and only if strict conditions are met. Based on what is known today, such conditions do not exist, the bishops said. The United States accuses Iraq of building weapons of mass destruction and harboring terrorists and demands that Baghdad accept the unconditional return of U.N. weapons inspectors or face the possibility of military action. If the Iraqi regime constitutes a real threat, "should we not try to put in place all the means other than military to avoid it?" the bishops asked. "A confrontation between an Arab nation and the United States would strengthen the arguments of radical Islamic ideologues," the statement added, "and increase hostility toward the West… and its values of democracy and tolerance." The statement said that war would only "widen the gulf between our peoples and those of the region." The Vatican (news – web sites) has also spoken out against military action against Iraq and said that a pre-emptive strike raised serious ethical and legal problems. France has argued that war should be a last resort and has urged the United States to wait until the inspectors have a chance to do their job before threatening war. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021015/ap_wo_en_p… Otis Willie Associate Librarian The American War Library http://www.americanwarlibrary.com

Response:

French bishops speak out against military action against Iraq

+ What else is new from the French. + They are wusses. pompous idiots. grocery clerks.

Response:

French bishops speak out against military action against Iraq + What else is new from the French. + They are wusses. pompous idiots. grocery clerks.

..and worried about their contracts with Iraq… Bruce — Blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be bent out of shape.

Response:

French bishops speak out against military action against Iraq + What else is new from the French. + They are wusses. pompous idiots. grocery clerks.

Now, now…they’re bakers as well. Credit where credit is due. — mailbox. Visit http://home.earthlink.net/~honus1/ A collection of so-called religious miracles including (but not limited to) Jesus in burnt tortillas, the Virgin Mary in the barks of trees, and the name Allah in various vegetables. All with appropriate (or inappropriate) commentary.

Response:

French bishops speak out against military action against Iraq + What else is new from the French. + They are wusses. pompous idiots. grocery clerks.

Are you going to go the the front…or just masturbate while others do? Paul

Response:

Are you going to go the the front…or just masturbate while others do?

+ Tell us, Paul, … is this what you will be doing? + I’ve been to the front. Nam and Desert Storm. + 28 years. I’ll go back in a minute for God and Country. + Tell us about what you’ll do, Paul? Tell us.

Response:

Are you going to go the the front…or just masturbate while others do? + Tell us, Paul, … is this what you will be doing? + I’ve been to the front. Nam and Desert Storm. + 28 years. I’ll go back in a minute for God and Country. + Tell us about what you’ll do, Paul? Tell us.

Just what God and Country have done for me….NOTHING. Paul

Response:

+ G’bye. You are dismissed.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you going to go the the front…or just masturbate while others do? + Tell us, Paul, … is this what you will be doing? + I’ve been to the front. Nam and Desert Storm. + 28 years. I’ll go back in a minute for God and Country. + Tell us about what you’ll do, Paul? Tell us. Just what God and Country have done for me….NOTHING. + G’bye. You are dismissed.

So that was what they said to you on your dismissal. By the way, did you ever apologise to those Vets for the comments you made when you tried to falsely claim a medal you were not due? — Alan "the Full Monty" Ferrit ()’.’.’() ( (T) ) ( ) . ( ) (")_(") eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211 Denizen of Darkness #42 EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you going to go the the front…or just masturbate while others do? + Tell us, Paul, … is this what you will be doing? + I’ve been to the front. Nam and Desert Storm. + 28 years. I’ll go back in a minute for God and Country. + Tell us about what you’ll do, Paul? Tell us. Just what God and Country have done for me….NOTHING. + G’bye. You are dismissed.

As what happens to you at every job you try that doesn’t involve shooting someone… Paul

Response:

An exercise of good faith

admin — Tue, 09 Apr 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Infidel Here is an exercise for the regulars in this group: We come from different countries and different religions. 1) Name your nationality and religion 2) Make a critical statement about that origin I will start: Catholic American I feel that Americans are way too consumer focused, and do not really pay enough attention to world events. They consume way too much of the world’s resources and feel it is their right to do so. In general they do not know anything about the outside world until it becomes front page news and then they quickly accept however the mass media portrays the story. As for religion, I was born Roman Catholic, but at a young age decided that the institution was hypocritical and self serving. I feel the same way about other organized religions. Anyone else? Sure I will play your game. I am an American and we are not serious enough about the war on terrorism. We should be following in the footsteps of Israel. We could learn a lot from them. As for religion I have my own beliefs and I do not discuss them because that would be off topic here as this newsgroup is about the evils of islam. I like your style, you don’t fuss with a bunch of dull rhetoric, you go straight to the point and you speak your mind. We need more people like you here. I still would like to know your religious affiliation to see what relationship it has to Islam.

My posts are not based on religion. I do not preach religion and I do not discuss religion. If you must know, my version of religion is based on several religions, teachings, ways of life and INCLUDING islam. I am here soley to discuss terrorism. What is a better place to discuss terrorism than an islamic newsgroup. The point is what relationship terrorism has to islam and the answer is that it has everything to do with islam. If islam will not rid itself of terrorism, then we must rid the world of islam.

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Hello All English Catholic Engaged to a Muslim England Still thinks its a world power most of the time used to do the dirty work for the Us. best country to have on your side when the chips are down. Still attend Church as a Catholic but love to learn about other religions I look at the world with great sadness but deep down I feel there is hope for us all. warmest Regards to all Xain

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is an exercise for the regulars in this group: We come from different countries and different religions. 1) Name your nationality and religion 2) Make a critical statement about that origin I will start: Catholic American I feel that Americans are way too consumer focused, and do not really pay enough attention to world events. They consume way too much of the world’s resources and feel it is their right to do so. In general they do not know anything about the outside world until it becomes front page news and then they quickly accept however the mass media portrays the story. As for religion, I was born Roman Catholic, but at a young age decided that the institution was hypocritical and self serving. I feel the same way about other organized religions. Anyone else? Sure I will play your game. I am an American and we are not serious enough about the war on terrorism. We should be following in the footsteps of Israel. We could learn a lot from them. As for religion I have my own beliefs and I do not discuss them because that would be off topic here as this newsgroup is about the evils of islam.

I like your style, you don’t fuss with a bunch of dull rhetoric, you go straight to the point and you speak your mind. We need more people like you here. I still would like to know your religious affiliation to see what relationship it has to Islam.

Response:

Here is an exercise for the regulars in this group: We come from different countries and different religions. 1) Name your nationality and religion 2) Make a critical statement about that origin I will start: Catholic American I feel that Americans are way too consumer focused, and do not really pay enough attention to world events. They consume way too much of the world’s resources and feel it is their right to do so. In general they do not know anything about the outside world until it becomes front page news and then they quickly accept however the mass media portrays the story. As for religion, I was born Roman Catholic, but at a young age decided that the institution was hypocritical and self serving. I feel the same way about other organized religions. Anyone else?

Response:

Sure I will play your game. I am an American and we are not serious enough about the war on terrorism. We should be following in the footsteps of Israel. We could learn a lot from them. As for religion I have my own beliefs and I do not discuss them because that would be off topic here as this newsgroup is about the evils of islam.

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The Fruit(cake) of Medjugorje

admin — Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

The Associated Press State & Local Wire December 12, 2001, Wednesday, BC cycle HEADLINE: Suit accuses group devoted to Virgin Mary of being cult BYLINE: By JAY REEVES, Associated Press Writer DATELINE: STERRETT, Ala. BODY: A multimillion dollar organization that promotes visions of the Virgin Mary is fighting charges of being a destructive cult as religious pilgrims from across the nation arrive at its Alabama compound seeking spiritual renewal. Five former residents of Caritas of Birmingham have filed suit in state court seeking an unspecified amount of money from the group and its founder, Terry Colafrancesco. The suit claims Colafrancesco lures people into Caritas with promises of spiritual enrichment and then drains them of money. Families are made to live in nasty trailers at the group’s compound, and Colafrancesco controls their lives almost totally, the suit claims. The plaintiffs include a one-time lieutenant to Colafrancesco and five parents who sued on behalf of their children, who still live at the mission located about 30 minutes south of Birmingham on about 150 acres of wooded land. The suit claims Caritas has assets of about $5.9 million gained both through legitimate donations, pressure tactics and shady business deals. Colafrancesco "said he was knighted by Mary the mother of Jesus," according to the suit. "It’s just bitterness," Colafrancesco said Tuesday, declining to respond to specific allegations. About 50 people, mostly Roman Catholics, live at Caritas, which includes a huge stone office building that resembles a church. The suit was filed Friday, just days before the arrival at Caritas of Marija Pavlovic Lunetti, who has reported having visions of Christ’s mother for about two decades. Lunetti was one of six young people who claimed Mary appeared to them in 1981 in the town of Medjugorje, located in the country now called Bosnia-Herzegovina. The messages continued and the group developed a worldwide following. Thousands of people came to a rolling pasture when Lunetti first visited Alabama in 1981 to donate a kidney to her ailing brother during a transplant operation in Birmingham. Only a small organization at the time, Caritas has since become one of the largest organizations dedicated to spreading the messages of Medjugorje. Lunetti, who now lives in Italy, was last at Caritas in 1999, when several thousand people a day gathered to hear her report messages she said she received from Mary in apparitions. Few of the people who traveled to Caritas to see Lunetti this time knew of the lawsuit. But sisters Alice Rosemann and Diana Brush said having the chance to hear Lunetti speak made the 12-hour drive from their homes in Missouri worthwhile. The sisters and 24 other relatives piled into five cars for the trip. Rosemann, of Bunker, Mo., said she wanted to cry after seeing Lunetti for the first time. "I was touched. It’s just something about her," she said. The lawsuit claims Colafrancesco persuaded Lunetti to come to Alabama the first time and continues bringing her to the state "to attract individuals to live at Caritas and work for him full time to raise money and do other things." The organization reported $3.8 million in assets and $1.8 million in income in 1999, according to Internal Revenue Service forms. Colafrancesco said the lawsuit was timed to coincide with Lunetti’s visit. "They’re trying to wreck this," he said. Plaintiffs include Pat Flynn, who once was a top aide to Colafrancesco and served as a spokesman for Caritas. Flynn, his wife and their children left Caritas last year and now live in Michigan. The Vatican has not taken a position on whether the visions of Medjugorje are real. The California-based Kronzer Foundation, which claims the Medjugorje visions are fake, filed suit last year accusing Caritas of brainwashing and mismanagement. The suit, which also named other groups, was dismissed.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Associated Press State & Local Wire December 12, 2001, Wednesday, BC cycle HEADLINE: Suit accuses group devoted to Virgin Mary of being cult BYLINE: By JAY REEVES, Associated Press Writer DATELINE: STERRETT, Ala. BODY: A multimillion dollar organization that promotes visions of the Virgin Mary is fighting charges of being a destructive cult as religious pilgrims from across the nation arrive at its Alabama compound seeking spiritual renewal. Five former residents of Caritas of Birmingham have filed suit in state court seeking an unspecified amount of money from the group and its founder, Terry Colafrancesco. The suit claims Colafrancesco lures people into Caritas with promises of spiritual enrichment and then drains them of money. Families are made to live in nasty trailers at the group’s compound, and Colafrancesco controls their lives almost totally, the suit claims. The plaintiffs include a one-time lieutenant to Colafrancesco and five parents who sued on behalf of their children, who still live at the mission located about 30 minutes south of Birmingham on about 150 acres of wooded land. The suit claims Caritas has assets of about $5.9 million gained both through legitimate donations, pressure tactics and shady business deals. Colafrancesco "said he was knighted by Mary the mother of Jesus," according to the suit. "It’s just bitterness," Colafrancesco said Tuesday, declining to respond to specific allegations. About 50 people, mostly Roman Catholics, live at Caritas, which includes a huge stone office building that resembles a church. The suit was filed Friday, just days before the arrival at Caritas of Marija Pavlovic Lunetti, who has reported having visions of Christ’s mother for about two decades. Lunetti was one of six young people who claimed Mary appeared to them in 1981 in the town of Medjugorje, located in the country now called Bosnia-Herzegovina. The messages continued and the group developed a worldwide following. Thousands of people came to a rolling pasture when Lunetti first visited Alabama in 1981 to donate a kidney to her ailing brother during a transplant operation in Birmingham. Only a small organization at the time, Caritas has since become one of the largest organizations dedicated to spreading the messages of Medjugorje. Lunetti, who now lives in Italy, was last at Caritas in 1999, when several thousand people a day gathered to hear her report messages she said she received from Mary in apparitions. Few of the people who traveled to Caritas to see Lunetti this time knew of the lawsuit. But sisters Alice Rosemann and Diana Brush said having the chance to hear Lunetti speak made the 12-hour drive from their homes in Missouri worthwhile. The sisters and 24 other relatives piled into five cars for the trip. Rosemann, of Bunker, Mo., said she wanted to cry after seeing Lunetti for the first time. "I was touched. It’s just something about her," she said. The lawsuit claims Colafrancesco persuaded Lunetti to come to Alabama the first time and continues bringing her to the state "to attract individuals to live at Caritas and work for him full time to raise money and do other things." The organization reported $3.8 million in assets and $1.8 million in income in 1999, according to Internal Revenue Service forms. Colafrancesco said the lawsuit was timed to coincide with Lunetti’s visit. "They’re trying to wreck this," he said. Plaintiffs include Pat Flynn, who once was a top aide to Colafrancesco and served as a spokesman for Caritas. Flynn, his wife and their children left Caritas last year and now live in Michigan. The Vatican has not taken a position on whether the visions of Medjugorje are real. The California-based Kronzer Foundation, which claims the Medjugorje visions are fake, filed suit last year accusing Caritas of brainwashing and mismanagement. The suit, which also named other groups, was dismissed.

One shouldn’t take anything seriously that is uttered by someone named Lunetti! RJP

Response:

The Associated Press State & Local Wire December 12, 2001, Wednesday, BC cycle HEADLINE: Suit accuses group devoted to Virgin Mary of being cult BYLINE: By JAY REEVES, Associated Press Writer

I’ve read the Kronzer website. Perhaps they are right, but they lack any spirit of charity. And I don’t believe in Medjugorge either!

Response:

Organization: ticias Newsgroups:

alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,soc.culture.croatia,tnn.religion.cath o li c – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Associated Press State & Local Wire December 12, 2001, Wednesday, BC cycle HEADLINE: Suit accuses group devoted to Virgin Mary of being cult BYLINE: By JAY REEVES, Associated Press Writer I’ve read the Kronzer website. Perhaps they are right, but they lack any spirit of charity. And I don’t believe in Medjugorge either!

It matters not whether you, yourself, believe. I have spoken with people who have made the trip there. Most who go come back ‘changed’ for the much better. So, whatever is ‘up’ over there, the real miracle is the change in those who visit. I credit a healing of a breast lump to ‘whatever’ is going on over there. Don’t discount other people’s miracles, you will lose every time. Paula

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: ticias Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,soc.culture.croatia,tnn.religion.cat ho li c The Associated Press State & Local Wire December 12, 2001, Wednesday, BC cycle HEADLINE: Suit accuses group devoted to Virgin Mary of being cult BYLINE: By JAY REEVES, Associated Press Writer I’ve read the Kronzer website. Perhaps they are right, but they lack any spirit of charity. And I don’t believe in Medjugorge either! It matters not whether you, yourself, believe. I have spoken with people who have made the trip there. Most who go come back ‘changed’ for the much better. So, whatever is ‘up’ over there, the real miracle is the change in those who visit. I credit a healing of a breast lump to ‘whatever’ is going on over there. Don’t discount other people’s miracles, you will lose every time.

Have you ever noticed that Jesus did not do a "group" thing, He always was personal. Each individual was treated as such. He never healed a mass of people, He looked as each as one scared/hurt person. Mark 10:51 So Jesus answered and said to him, "What do you want Me to do for you?" The blind man said to Him, "Rabboni, that I may receive my sight." Our Lord asked, the man answered, our Lord gave. He did not heal all, but that is His sovereign right to serve His purpose. Ciao, Falcon — # BIBLE: Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth # # "Have You Read My #1 Best Seller? There Will Be A Test." – God #

Response:

Hello Falcon. Have you ever noticed that Jesus did not do a "group" thing, He always was personal. Each individual was treated as such. He never healed a mass of people, He looked as each as one scared/hurt person.

Not exactly sure what your point is here, but there was the healing of the ten lepers. — Regards, Phil Murphy

Response:

The ends don’t justify the means. If it’s false and phony, everyone should steer clear of it. One cannot change for the better while believing in fraud. I have never met any of the "believers" who were willing to step back and look at this objectively. They all "wanted" it to be true and could not be dissuaded. Someday, I believe, the truth will come out, and though I won’t feel sorry for myself if it turns out to be true, I will feel sorry for those who were duped if it turns out to be false. BAM

Response:

The ends don’t justify the means. If it’s false and phony, everyone should steer clear of it. One cannot change for the better while believing in fraud.

People live believing in frauds & commonly accepted "beliefs" no one can neither prove nor disprove ( communism, fascism, democracy, liberal capitalism, enviromentalism, conspiracies, scientism, all religions, atheism, ….)

Response:

I have never met any of the "believers" who were willing to step back and look at this objectively. They all "wanted" it to be true and could not be dissuaded.

So what? In almost every country in Europe today it is *punishable* to "not belive" in the Holocaust and death of 6M Jews. The proof for some 6M murdered victims are less than inadequate. Not only that, even proving half that amount has shown to be difficult. And when caught in the bullshit the final argument is always that "numbers don’t matter, a crime is a crime". No shit? In one instance we’re required, even by law, to "believe" and not dare questioning something that, despite an enormous amount of research and money poured into it yet hasn’t been adequately shown to be correct, and in the other we’re supposed to be 100% clinically objective and reject this Medjugorje phenomena even when it’s doing good? Personally I don’t care if a person that got cured from some illness indeed saw Mother of God at that mountain or if he or she got cured from the exposure to the change of air or water or whatever. This Kronzer person has lost his wife and is bitter for that. His sorrow and bitterness is also used by Serbs who hate everything Croatian and Catholic. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, let it be. R

Response:

That’s nice. Was it their faith, or the place itself? If you attribute it to the place itself, you’re coming dangerously close (if not over the line with) idolatry.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never met any of the "believers" who were willing to step back and look at this objectively. They all "wanted" it to be true and could not be dissuaded. So what? In almost every country in Europe today it is *punishable* to "not belive" in the Holocaust and death of 6M Jews. The proof for some 6M murdered victims are less than inadequate. Not only that, even proving half that amount has shown to be difficult. And when caught in the bullshit the final argument is always that "numbers don’t matter, a crime is a crime". No shit?

There is a bewildering variety of figures re this particular genocide:http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm Extermination of the Jews: Reitlinger, Gerald, The Final Solution (1953): between 4,194,200 and 4,851,200 (this number is accepted by Kinder, The Anchor Atlas of World History (1978)) Brzezinski: 5,000,000 Chirot: 5,100,000 3,000,000 in death camps. 1,300,000 massacred. 800,000 by dis./maln. in ghettos Rummel: 5,291,000 Grenville: 5-6M Davies, Europe A History (1998): 5,571,300 (puts the minimum at 4,871,000 and the maximum at 6,271,500.) Nuremberg indictment: 5,700,000 (accepted by Britannica) Gutman, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990): 5,596,029 to 5,860,129 P. Johnson: 5,800,000 Wallechinsky: "nearly" 6,000,000 Urlanis: 6M In one instance we’re required, even by law, to "believe" and not dare questioning something that, despite an enormous amount of research and money poured into it yet hasn’t been adequately shown to be correct, and in the other we’re supposed to be 100% clinically objective and reject this Medjugorje phenomena even when it’s doing good? Personally I don’t care if a person that got cured from some illness indeed saw Mother of God at that mountain or if he or she got cured from the exposure to the change of air or water or whatever. This Kronzer person has lost his wife and is bitter for that. His sorrow and bitterness is also used by Serbs who hate everything Croatian and Catholic.

Anyway- this is kind of jabber one can find on, say, http://www.emperors-clothes.com/ or www.reformation.org/ . Goodbye to all that pathology. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, let it be. R

Response:

The Associated Press State & Local Wire December 12, 2001, Wednesday, BC cycle HEADLINE: Suit accuses group devoted to Virgin Mary of being cult

Aha. Well- now this is politics: http://www.kronzer.org/corruption_intro_page.html Well- audiatur et altera pars http://www.hercegbosna.org/engleski/inter.html http://www.hercegbosna.org/engleski/currlinks.html

Response:

Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups:

alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,soc.culture.croatia,tnn.religion.cath o li c – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It matters not whether you, yourself, believe. I have spoken with people who have made the trip there. Most who go come back ‘changed’ for the much better. So, whatever is ‘up’ over there, the real miracle is the change in those who visit. The ends don’t justify the means. If it’s false and phony, everyone should steer clear of it. One cannot change for the better while believing in fraud. I have never met any of the "believers" who were willing to step back and look at this objectively. They all "wanted" it to be true and could not be dissuaded. Someday, I believe, the truth will come out, and though I won’t feel sorry for myself if it turns out to be true, I will feel sorry for those who were duped if it turns out to be false. BAM

There is no way for you to know whether or not it is or is not ‘real’. I have met several ’skeptics’ and non-believers who also went and came back and totally changed their lives. But, to shed light on this topic, remember: "And for my clothes, they cast lots". It is not ‘odd’ that there are those who exploit. Paula

Response:

Mother Teresa was not Exorcised

admin — Fri, 07 Sep 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

"JCarew" wrote MOTHER TERESA WAS NOT EXORCISED, ARCHBISHOP SAYS Priest Simply Told to Pray Over Her

+ Thanks for the REAL story.

Response:

"peter terry" wrote You would believe anything right?

+ Writen by JCarew? Yup! Even that Jesus advocated ritual cannibalism.

+ Nope. + You’ll have to convince me…. duhh

+ I know, I know…. + This is your normal answer to your family, like… + What is for dinner? + Are you ever going to get a job? + Have you got a clue on this subject matter? + etc…

Response:

"peter terry" wrote You would believe anything right? + Writen by JCarew? Yup!

Ah, another infallible Catholic is named. (Grin). Even that Jesus advocated ritual cannibalism. + Nope. + You’ll have to convince me….

In fact, this same alleged miracle (transubstantiation) was taught by the ancient Egyptian religion that worshiped the pagan god Osiris. See The Mystery of the Eucharist – http://mtc.org/~bart/eucharst.htm by former Roman Catholic priest, and now Baptist minister Dr. Bartholomew F. Brewer, Ph.D. The article includes Canons from the Council of Trent. Not that it will convince you but being exposed to truth is never a bad thing. Ciao, Falcon #### To reply via email remove "7" from address #### # Failure is not an option # # It comes bundled with the software #

Response:

"Falcon" < wrote "peter terry" wrote Even that Jesus advocated ritual cannibalism. + You’ll have to convince me…. In fact, this same alleged miracle (transubstantiation) was taught by the ancient Egyptian religion that worshiped the pagan god Osiris. See The Mystery of the Eucharist – http://mtc.org/~bart/eucharst.htm by former Roman Catholic priest, and now Baptist minister Dr. Bartholomew F. Brewer, Ph.D. The article includes Canons from the Council of Trent.

+ And your point is what? + Yes, I concede that the RCC uses candles. And candles have been used by satanists and murderers. I concede the RCC has leaders, as the bowling league has and the Railway Organization. I concede that the RCC has wine in Mass – the same wicked crap that the Bible warns you against, and what Jesus changed water into. Yes, I concede we have a lot of stuff that we stole from others. Buildings. Windows. Lights. ( And some of us even drive cars! ) Not that it will convince you but being exposed to truth is never a bad thing.

+ I always appreciate the truth. + Thanks for coming close.

Response:

The author sums it up pretty well with his statement in the article: Of all the ancient dogmas of the Roman Catholic religion, the dogma of transubstantiation is the most wicked and satanic. + Yes, I concede that the RCC uses candles. And candles have been used by satanists and murderers. I concede the RCC has leaders, as the bowling league has and the Railway Organization. I concede that the RCC has wine in Mass – the same wicked crap that the Bible warns you against, and what Jesus changed water into. Yes, I concede we have a lot of stuff that we stole from others. Buildings. Windows. Lights. ( And some of us even drive cars! ) Not that it will convince you but being exposed to truth is never a bad thing. + I always appreciate the truth.

Would be even better if you accepted it rather than just appreciated it. + Thanks for coming close.

You’re welcome, and thanks for trying to understand the truth. Ciao, Falcon #### To reply via email remove "7" from address #### # Failure is not an option # # It comes bundled with the software #

Response:

"JCarew" wrote MOTHER TERESA WAS NOT EXORCISED, ARCHBISHOP SAYS Priest Simply Told to Pray Over Her + Thanks for the REAL story. You would believe anything right?

You’re so funny! You will believe anything as long as it reinforces what you already think, and reject anything contrary to that — right? "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused…." ( — Elvis Costello, "Angels Wanna Wear My Red Shoes")

Response:

"peter terry" wrote You would believe anything right? + Writen by JCarew? Yup! Ah, another infallible Catholic is named. (Grin).

Truth: Every person who speaks in harmony with the Magisterium, speaks infallibily. You can do it, too! Did you ever try? Even that Jesus advocated ritual cannibalism. + Nope. + You’ll have to convince me…. In fact, this same alleged miracle (transubstantiation) was taught by the ancient Egyptian religion that worshiped the pagan god Osiris.

God, in His mysterious ways, forshadowed the truth in many cultures, even in pagan religions, through which the nations groped for God in the darkness. It would be a lot more surprising to find something Jesus did that was entirely new, especially since Holy Scripture says, "there is nothing new under the sun." See The Mystery of the Eucharist – http://mtc.org/~bart/eucharst.htm by former Roman Catholic priest, and now Baptist minister Dr. Bartholomew F. Brewer, Ph.D. The article includes Canons from the Council of Trent. Not that it will convince you but being exposed to truth is never a bad thing.

And it is sometimes, but not always, useful to be exposed to the opinions of others (like Dr. Brewer.) And it is practically always useful in the extreme to be able to differentiate fact from opinion!

Response:

"peter terry" wrote You would believe anything right? + Writen by JCarew? Yup! Even that Jesus advocated ritual cannibalism. + Nope. + You’ll have to convince me….

Oh good so your inviting me to re-post all those threrads on the subjest..OKjust for you. duhh + I know, I know…. + This is your normal answer to your family, like… + What is for dinner? + Are you ever going to get a job? + Have you got a clue on this subject matter? + etc…

Nah this is when we all sit together and watch the little American on TV making a fool of himself for looking for a slice of meaty blood in a wafer. hahahahahahahahahaha seeeeeeee

Response:

"peter terry" wrote You would believe anything right? + Writen by JCarew? Yup! Ah, another infallible Catholic is named. (Grin). Truth: Every person who speaks in harmony with the Magisterium, speaks infallibily. You can do it, too! Did you ever try?

Not often, I usually rely on the Word of God which is frequently in conflict with the Church of Mary. Ciao, Falcon #### To reply via email remove "7" from address #### # Failure is not an option # # It comes bundled with the software #

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "JCarew" wrote MOTHER TERESA WAS NOT EXORCISED, ARCHBISHOP SAYS Priest Simply Told to Pray Over Her + Thanks for the REAL story. You would believe anything right? You’re so funny! You will believe anything as long as it reinforces what you already think, and reject anything contrary to that — right? "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused…." ( — Elvis Costello, "Angels Wanna Wear My Red Shoes")

Nah in that vein you would prefer Eurythmics, "Somebody told me so."

Response:

Hey Babbo you keep saying that and NO one takes even the slightest notice of you. Because you have NO credibility, but a waffling old fool. Get out of here will you!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "peter terry" wrote You would believe anything right? + Writen by JCarew? Yup! Even that Jesus advocated ritual cannibalism. + Nope. + You’ll have to convince me…. duhh + I know, I know…. + This is your normal answer to your family, like… + What is for dinner? + Are you ever going to get a job? + Have you got a clue on this subject matter? + etc… PB . . . Lets just let him go . . . EVERYONE has his number so it’s time to ignore him . . . . People have seen his rants and know what they are about . . . . Give em enough rope . . . . . . . Well it works once again . . . . . God Bless Randy

Response:

Of all the ancient dogmas of the Roman Catholic religion, the dogma of transubstantiation is the most wicked and satanic.

Of course he would say this in the attempt to calm his conscience. — itaque fratres state et tenete traditiones quas didicistis sive per sermonem sive per epistulam nostram

Response:

"JCarew" wrote MOTHER TERESA WAS NOT EXORCISED, ARCHBISHOP SAYS Priest Simply Told to Pray Over Her + Thanks for the REAL story.

That’s all it sounded like from the CNN report too . . . . Not a real exorcism . . . . God Bless Randy

Response:

PB . . . Lets just let him go . . . EVERYONE has his number so it’s time to ignore him . . . . People have seen his rants and know what they are about . . . . Give em enough rope . . . . . . . Well it works once again . . . . . God Bless Randy

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "peter terry" wrote You would believe anything right? + Writen by JCarew? Yup! Ah, another infallible Catholic is named. (Grin). Truth: Every person who speaks in harmony with the Magisterium, speaks infallibily. You can do it, too! Did you ever try? Not often, I usually rely on the Word of God which is frequently in conflict with the Church of Mary.

Your own Bible has the image of the woman clothed with the Sun. That is the "Church of Mary" that you disparage. But you do rely on your own interpretation of the word of God — if I give you a LOT of credit — and more probably the private interpretations of others, if I am being more realistic.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dont Mess with a Missionary Man!! Yep "JCarew" wrote MOTHER TERESA WAS NOT EXORCISED, ARCHBISHOP SAYS Priest Simply Told to Pray Over Her + Thanks for the REAL story. You would believe anything right? You’re so funny! You will believe anything as long as it reinforces what you already think, and reject anything contrary to that — right? "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused…." ( — Elvis Costello, "Angels Wanna Wear My Red Shoes") Nah in that vein you would prefer Eurythmics, "Somebody told me so."

Response:

Dont Mess with a Missionary Man!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "JCarew" wrote MOTHER TERESA WAS NOT EXORCISED, ARCHBISHOP SAYS Priest Simply Told to Pray Over Her + Thanks for the REAL story. You would believe anything right? You’re so funny! You will believe anything as long as it reinforces what you already think, and reject anything contrary to that — right? "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused…." ( — Elvis Costello, "Angels Wanna Wear My Red Shoes") Nah in that vein you would prefer Eurythmics, "Somebody told me so."

Response:

Yeah right!!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – JMJ MOTHER TERESA WAS NOT EXORCISED, ARCHBISHOP SAYS Priest Simply Told to Pray Over Her CALCUTTA, India, SEPT. 7, 2001 (Zenit.org).- Mother Teresa of Calcutta did not undergo the rite of exorcism, says Archbishop Henry D

Oklahoma school suspends girl for casting spell

admin — Wed, 15 Nov 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I have seen this site. I am not aware of any press release from the school. Please let me when there is one and post it.

It’s highly unlikely that there will ever be one. Lawyers for institutions like schools routinely advise their clients to say nothing at all to the press ever. Cases like this are often settled out of court with a clause that no one involved on either side can say anything about it to the press. It’s possible that we may never know anything more than that the case was settled. Oh, that sounds very reasonable to me, but he has done interviews. He did one with the Today show. That is the one I saw.

Ah. I was unaware of how much play this story was getting in mainstream media. The place I first saw it was in one of those "people are sure weird and stupid" columns. I am not charging that he is abusive, I merely feel that he is self-involved to the point that his daughter is getting expelled from school a second time for reasons that we just don’t know about.

It seems very likely that her first suspension was exactly as it is represented in the ACLU complaint. The school officials, freaked out by Columbine, started acting hysterically. This is not unusual. Overreaction to minor incidents has become almost a cliche among school boards. A friend of mine had her daughter suspended for trying to pull off a bully who was attacking her friend. The school officials said she should have let him get beat up while she tried to get the attention of a teacher somewhere. Another young man was suspended for wearing jewelry that depicted a Native American peace pipe because they considered it "drug paraphernalia". It wasn’t a functional pipe at all, just a clay mold an inch long. Stories like these are a dime-a-dozen. This case looks like just another in a long line of idiocities perpetrated by school officials who have chosen to adopt a bunker mentality. He is on TV and in the press, and stands to make some cash in this suit. They ain’t pagans. Let me repeat, they ain’t pagans. They said they were Catholic, I heard them say this, so I ain’t conning you.

As I said earlier, their personal beliefs are not the issue. The issue is freedom of speech and religion. The complaint is harassment. For a witch trial to be unjust, the victim doesn’t have to be a witch. My feelings are not a charge. I make no charge.

You phrased it wrong, then. It certainly represented a charge as it was written.

Response:

Timothy Blackbear is obviously a neglectful if not abusive father, 1. What makes you so sure her father was neglectful? Just a feeling I get from his interviews, and whenever I hear only one side of a story, I know I am being conned.

In other words, you have no evidence that he’s neglectful or abusive, indeed no reason to believe it. Yet for some reason, this didn’t stop you from libeling the man, and lying about it being "obvious." Feh. She ain’t no wiccan, so why are people pretending to care about a lowly xian What makes you think she is Xian? She doesn’t look like she is Chinese. Folks instructing me to use an abreviation like this for christian.

Who instructed you to use it? It’s not necessary. —

Response:

Timothy Blackbear is obviously a neglectful if not abusive father, though now he cares about his daughter cause she is going to make him a bundle. That’s not an accusation one makes lightly, let alone claim is "obvious." Please support or retract the statement. Not an accusation, just a personal impression.

Your phrasing needs a lot of work, then. What you wrote was an accusation. The ACLU will mop the floor with this school especially if they are more accurate in what they say. But we haven’t heard anything from the school which has some brass balls to challenge them. They have only said that the Blackbears had not exhausted their options before seeking financial compensation. One sided arguements leave me uneasy, but probably both sides behaved badly. As an occultist, I would think there would be some concern about whether this girl was playing with wiccan firecrackers without adhering to its "ain harm none" ethic. Funny how nobody is talking about that.

Not funny at all — we’re discussing the civil liberties issue. Whether she actually cast a hex on a teacher, or whether she was justified in doing so, have no bearing on her legal rights. —

Response:

Not funny at all — we’re discussing the civil liberties issue. Whether she actually cast a hex on a teacher, or whether she was justified in doing so, have no bearing on her legal rights.

Civil Liberties? I thought this was alt.magick. Well, since Civil liberties are a myth, I guess it counts.

Response:

I have seen this site. I am not aware of any press release from the school. Please let me when there is one and post it. It’s highly unlikely that there will ever be one. Lawyers for institutions like schools routinely advise their clients to say nothing at all to the press ever. Cases like this are often settled out of court with a clause that no one involved on either side can say anything about it to the press. It’s possible that we may never know anything more than that the case was settled.

Don’t take this personally, but ‘Lawyer Think’ makes me fear for our future evolution. Violence and Politics being the only thing worse. Oh, that sounds very reasonable to me, but he has done interviews. He did one with the Today show. That is the one I saw. Ah. I was unaware of how much play this story was getting in mainstream media. The place I first saw it was in one of those "people are sure weird and stupid" columns.

ABC news did a piece on wiccans and Fort Hood a little over a year ago, The pagan community in Texas thought it was positive, but it was so insulting that I could only laugh at the irony. George Stephanopolis began with something like "Believe it or not, there are actually people who call themselves ‘witches’. They even jump through fire nekkid". Jeez, I know some of these people and I was embarrassed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not charging that he is abusive, I merely feel that he is self-involved to the point that his daughter is getting expelled from school a second time for reasons that we just don’t know about. It seems very likely that her first suspension was exactly as it is represented in the ACLU complaint. The school officials, freaked out by Columbine, started acting hysterically. This is not unusual. Overreaction to minor incidents has become almost a cliche among school boards. A friend of mine had her daughter suspended for trying to pull off a bully who was attacking her friend. The school officials said she should have let him get beat up while she tried to get the attention of a teacher somewhere. Another young man was suspended for wearing jewelry that depicted a Native American peace pipe because they considered it "drug paraphernalia". It wasn’t a functional pipe at all, just a clay mold an inch long. Stories like these are a dime-a-dozen. This case looks like just another in a long line of idiocities perpetrated by school officials who have chosen to adopt a bunker mentality.

Like, I said, the ACLU will mop the floor with them, whether it is right or wrong. Still, I’d like to know what happened to that teacher. Did any wiccans go to undo the bad mojo? What is his name, I’ll do it. I am more concerned about that than some stupid lawsuit. Now I’m cleaning up wiccan messes, Jeez. He is on TV and in the press, and stands to make some cash in this suit. They ain’t pagans. Let me repeat, they ain’t pagans. They said they were Catholic, I heard them say this, so I ain’t conning you. As I said earlier, their personal beliefs are not the issue. The issue is freedom of speech and religion. The complaint is harassment.

I guess you think one set of violent impulses justifies its reactionary set of violent impulses. If you are honestly concerned about an equal measure of religious freedom for Christians, Muslims and Pagans alike, then I completely agree, but we’ve got a few pagans acting like fundamentalist crusaders too, and I ain’t choking that one down. For a witch trial to be unjust, the victim doesn’t have to be a witch.

Then again she could be a natural. Girl writes stuff down, spreads rumour, teacher gets sick. On the surface, it sounds impressive. Pointless but impressive. My feelings are not a charge. I make no charge. You phrased it wrong, then. It certainly represented a charge as it was written.

Perhaps, you just wanted to take it that way, or perhaps you right. And what do you win if you are right. I still think Timothy Blackbear is an opportunist, but you win.

Response:

OK, he is not abusive or neglectful. Is Asshole permited?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – icsel wrote Supposedly, she wrote some columbine type stuff, which considering the current political climate, ie..Rosie, Gore the Usurper et al, and that was a very un-PC thing to do. What do think this is, a democracy or something? The girl was suspended twice. The first time was not long after Columbine. The girl alleges that her locker was searched for a gun. No gun was found. But her Steven King like creative writings were seized. That is her version of the story. The school has not told us its version of why she was suspended the first time. After Columbine, this kind of school case is not uncommon. Schools, in their zeal to prevent school violence, go too far and punish speech which is not threatening. Of course, I don’t know what happened in this girl’s first suspension. We’ll have to wait until the case goes to trial to find out what happened.

Waiting to get the real story is what was suggested to me as well. Jumping into emotional waters, without knowing both sides, is wasting valuable energy. This girl has the ACLU on her side, so she ain’t hurtin’. I would point out that my magickal work involves writing things down, not merely in a grimoire or journal. That is why I suspect she is a natural.

Response:

Timothy Blackbear is obviously a neglectful if not abusive father, 1. What makes you so sure her father was neglectful? Just a feeling I get from his interviews, What interviews make you think it is "obvious" that he is neglectful or abusive? I haven’t seen any interviews with him at all. Have you? I have seen this: http://www.aclu.org/court/blackbear_complaint.html

I have seen this site. I am not aware of any press release from the school. Please let me when there is one and post it. and whenever I hear only one side of a story, I know I am being conned. Sounds to me like you’re doing some conning yourself, with your spurious and baseless charges of child abuse against a man whose only quoted comment was, "It’s hard for me to believe that in the year 2000 I am walking into court to defend my daughter against charges of witchcraft brought by her own school, but if that’s what it takes to clear her record and get her life back to normal, that’s what we’ll do."

Oh, that sounds very reasonable to me, but he has done interviews. He did one with the Today show. That is the one I saw. I am not charging that he is abusive, I merely feel that he is self-involved to the point that his daughter is getting expelled from school a second time for reasons that we just don’t know about. He is on TV and in the press, and stands to make some cash in this suit. They ain’t pagans. Let me repeat, they ain’t pagans. They said they were Catholic, I heard them say this, so I ain’t conning you. My feelings are not a charge. I make no charge. I know America is a Dictatorship of legalilties, but lets pretend that an occultist can knock at the door of truth with a critical mind and perhaps delude him or herself that free will or thought may exist, but let him or her knock, please. The ACLU for all the good work it does is only one side of the story. As an occultist, you know that both sides are probably full of shit. If you always believe one side of any debate, what are you learning. You have merely surrendered your will to one set of impulses. Yuck.

Response:

I correponded with a reporter in Tulsa who told me that we haven’t heard the story. What we have heard is suspect. It should be noted that she is ROMAN CATHOLIC. She ain’t no wiccan,

Her personal religious beliefs are not really the issue. She was ordered not to display Wiccan symbolism, despite allowing the symbols of at least one other faith. That’s the primary reason that the ACLU got involved. It’s a constitutional freedom of religion question. No matter what the story is, it was profoundly foolish to officially punish a child for "hexing" someone. The last time we got into that, we ended up with nine people in Salem, Massachusetts, put to death at the behest of some hysterical children who later openly repudiated their own actions. Now, if she was accused of displaying open disrespect for a teacher and punished accordingly, none of this furor would have ensued. The dangerous ignorance and superstition implied by a supposedly responsible school board conducting a witch trial is at issue, not the child’s behavior.

Response:

What do

Of course not, the U.S. is a republic, not a democracy. Before you buy.

Response:

Tom Schuler wrote . She was ordered not to display Wiccan symbolism, despite allowing the symbols of at least one other faith. That’s the primary reason that the ACLU got involved. It’s a constitutional freedom of religion question.

That is her side of the story. The school denies that it prohibits anyone from wearing religious jewelry of any type. I have seen what seem to be the relevant excerpts from the current dress code and it does not appear to ban religious jewelry of any sort. I have an open mind on the question of whether the school stopped her from wearing Wiccan/religious jewelry. No matter what the story is, it was profoundly foolish to officially punish a child for "hexing" someone. The last time we got into that, we ended up with nine people in Salem, Massachusetts, put to death at the behest of some hysterical children who later openly repudiated their own actions. Now, if she was accused of displaying open disrespect for a teacher and punished accordingly, none of this furor would have ensued. The dangerous ignorance and superstition implied by a supposedly responsible school board conducting a witch trial is at issue, not the child’s behavior.

You seem to be assuming or already have decided that the girl’s version of events is correct. The school denies that and says that it will contest the law suit vigorously. At this time there has not been one witness testify, one attorney augue in court, not one hearing. I am going to wait until I see the evidence before I form an opinion as to what happened.

Response:

That is true. It is also the side of the story that the ACLU is telling. Since the ACLU is composed of people who have a good grasp of the law and one overriding purpose of challenging infringements on individual rights under the US Constitution, one can reasonably conclude that there is a constitutional issue here. They would not have instituted a suit without at least some facts that support her contentions that they were willing to take into court. So it is unlikely that she is flat-out lying about all this, even if the school hasn’t told its side of the story.

Response:

Tom Schuler wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tom Schuler wrote . She was ordered not to display Wiccan symbolism, despite allowing the symbols of at least one other faith. That’s the primary reason that the ACLU got involved. It’s a constitutional freedom of religion question. That is her side of the story. That is true. It is also the side of the story that the ACLU is telling. Since the ACLU is composed of people who have a good grasp of the law and one overriding purpose of challenging infringements on individual rights under the US Constitution, one can reasonably conclude that there is a constitutional issue here. They would not have instituted a suit without at least some facts that support her contentions that they were willing to take into court. So it is unlikely that she is flat-out lying about all this, even if the school hasn’t told its side of the story.

I agree. I think you make a good point. I’m wondering if she might have said something like "That teacher is going to die, and soon, believe me." A statement such as that might be construed as a threat or a curse. Just idle speculation.

Response:

Supposedly, she wrote some columbine type stuff, which considering the current political climate, ie..Rosie, Gore the Usurper et al, and that was a very un-PC thing to do. What do think this is, a democracy or something? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [anybody got updates on this story?] The most recent press release from the ACLU offers a bit more information. http://www.aclu.org/news/2000/n102600.html The school has denied that the reason she was suspended was because of Wicca or because of a hex. The school said that it will contest the law suit vigorously. There is more information and some explanation in the post I made in the "Witch Trial" thread on 11-12-00. I will try to post updates as events warrant. There is an interesting ACLU web page on religious liberty in schools that has a number of Wiccan cases. I made a mistake when I posted the URL before so let me try again. http://www.religioustolerance.org/sch_clot.htm

Response:

icsel wrote Supposedly, she wrote some columbine type stuff, which considering the current political climate, ie..Rosie, Gore the Usurper et al, and that was a very un-PC thing to do. What do think this is, a democracy or something?

The girl was suspended twice. The first time was not long after Columbine. The girl alleges that her locker was searched for a gun. No gun was found. But her Steven King like creative writings were seized. That is her version of the story. The school has not told us its version of why she was suspended the first time. After Columbine, this kind of school case is not uncommon. Schools, in their zeal to prevent school violence, go too far and punish speech which is not threatening. Of course, I don’t know what happened in this girl’s first suspension. We’ll have to wait until the case goes to trial to find out what happened.

Response:

Timothy Blackbear is obviously a neglectful if not abusive father, though now he cares about his daughter cause she is going to make him a bundle.

That’s not an accusation one makes lightly, let alone claim is "obvious." Please support or retract the statement. It should be noted that she is ROMAN CATHOLIC. She ain’t no wiccan, so why are people pretending to care about a lowly xian? This story is a small scale version of the nastiness happening in Palm Beach.

Personally, I know plenty of CHristians I care about. Did I miss a metting in which it became OK to treat Christians in the manner reported? If not, it hardly has any bearing here. What’s Palm Beach got to do with all this? —

Response:

[anybody got updates on this story?] Oklahoma school suspends girl for casting spell By Ben Fenwick OKLAHOMA CITY (Reuters) – An Oklahoma high school suspended a 15-year-old student after accusing her of casting a magic spell that caused a teacher to become sick, lawyers for the student said on Friday. The American Civil Liberties Union said it had filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Tulsa, Oklahoma, on behalf of student Brandi Blackbear, charging that the assistant principal of Union Intermediate High School in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, suspended her for 15 days last December for supposedly casting a spell. The suit also charged the Tulsa-area Union Public Schools with repeatedly violating Blackbear’s civil rights by seizing notebooks she used to write horror stories and barring her from drawing or wearing signs of the pagan religion Wicca. "It’s hard for me to believe that in the year 2000 I am walking into court to defend my daughter against charges of witchcraft brought by her own school," said Timothy Blackbear, Brandi’s father. His daughter is now a 10th grader. Joann Bell, executive director of the ACLU’s Oklahoma chapter, said the "outlandish accusations" had made Blackbear’s life at school unbearable. "I, for one, would like to see the so-called evidence this school has that a 15-year-old girl made a grown man sick by casting a magic spell," Bell said. A lawyer for the school district declined to comment. The lawsuit, filed on Thursday, alleges that Blackbear was summoned to the office of assistant principal Charlie Bushyhead last December after a teacher fell ill, and was questioned about her interest in Wicca. According to the lawsuit, Brandi Blackbear had read a library book about Wicca beliefs and, under aggressive interrogation by Bushyhead, said she might be a Wiccan. In fact, Blackbear is a Roman Catholic, according to the newspaper Tulsa World. "The interview culminated with Defendant Bushyhead accusing Plaintiff, Brandi Blackbear, of casting spells causing (a teacher at the school) … to be sick and to be hospitalised," the lawsuit said. The lawsuit stated that because of the "unknown cause" of the teacher’s illness, Bushyhead advised the 15-year-old girl "that she was an immediate threat to the school and summarily suspended her for what he arbitrarily determined to be a disruption of the education process." Doug Mann, the school district’s attorney, declined to comment, saying laws protecting the school records of juveniles barred him and the district from responding outside of court. "It’s totally unfair that we are gagged by federal and state law and they can say anything they want," Mann said. "If the parents will sign a release for what’s in the girl’s files, we will talk about the true facts." The lawsuit alleged Blackbear’s civil rights also were violated when school officials prohibited her from wearing or drawing in school any symbols related to Wicca, a religion that dates back to pre-Christian nature worship. The ACLU is seeking an undisclosed amount of punitive and financial damages for Blackbear, a declaration that the school violated the girl’s rights, an injunction preventing the school from banning the wearing of any non-Christian religious paraphernalia and an order expunging her school record. — emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired

Response:

Not an accusation, just a personal impression. The ACLU will mop the floor with this school especially if they are more accurate in what they say. But we haven’t heard anything from the school which has some brass balls to challenge them. They have only said that the Blackbears had not exhausted their options before seeking financial compensation. One sided arguements leave me uneasy, but probably both sides behaved badly. As an occultist, I would think there would be some concern about whether this girl was playing with wiccan firecrackers without adhering to its "ain harm none" ethic. Funny how nobody is talking about that. It should be noted that she is ROMAN CATHOLIC. She ain’t no wiccan, so why are people pretending to care about a lowly xian? This story is a small scale version of the nastiness happening in Palm Beach. Personally, I know plenty of CHristians I care about. Did I miss a metting in which it became OK to treat Christians in the manner reported? If not, it hardly has any bearing here.

I was being a little sarcastic. Most pagans are easy going, but there are a few who treat others like crap. You know I read a thread once in which my pagan brethren and sisters were making confession. "Forgive me, I own a SUV". I’m not kidding. What’s Palm Beach got to do with all this?

Actually, I am also pleased with the Palm Beach mess because people are getting a first hand glimpse into the divisive cesspool of the mass mind. The only connection to the Blackbears are the ambulance chasers.

Response:

Timothy Blackbear is obviously a neglectful if not abusive father, 1. What makes you so sure her father was neglectful?

Just a feeling I get from his interviews, and whenever I hear only one side of a story, I know I am being conned. This story is a small scale version of the nastiness happening in Palm Beach. 2. What does this have to do with Palm Beach?

Ambulance chasers, duh? She ain’t no wiccan, so why are people pretending to care about a lowly xian What makes you think she is Xian? She doesn’t look like she is Chinese.

Folks instructing me to use an abreviation like this for christian.

Response:

Timothy Blackbear is obviously a neglectful if not abusive father, 1. What makes you so sure her father was neglectful? Just a feeling I get from his interviews,

What interviews make you think it is "obvious" that he is neglectful or abusive? I haven’t seen any interviews with him at all. Have you? I have seen this: http://www.aclu.org/court/blackbear_complaint.html and whenever I hear only one side of a story, I know I am being conned.

Sounds to me like you’re doing some conning yourself, with your spurious and baseless charges of child abuse against a man whose only quoted comment was, "It’s hard for me to believe that in the year 2000 I am walking into court to defend my daughter against charges of witchcraft brought by her own school, but if that’s what it takes to clear her record and get her life back to normal, that’s what we’ll do." .

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tom Schuler wrote . She was ordered not to display Wiccan symbolism, despite allowing the symbols of at least one other faith. That’s the primary reason that the ACLU got involved. It’s a constitutional freedom of religion question. That is her side of the story. That is true. It is also the side of the story that the ACLU is telling. Since the ACLU is composed of people who have a good grasp of the law and one overriding purpose of challenging infringements on individual rights under the US Constitution, one can reasonably conclude that there is a constitutional issue here. They would not have instituted a suit without at least some facts that support her contentions that they were willing to take into court. So it is unlikely that she is flat-out lying about all this, even if the school hasn’t told its side of the story. I agree. I think you make a good point. I’m wondering if she might have said something like "That teacher is going to die, and soon, believe me." A statement such as that might be construed as a threat or a curse. Just idle speculation.

This is the main question I have, and there is no answer to it. Only the ACLU and the blackbears have address the public. What do you think they will say?

Response:

[anybody got updates on this story?]

The most recent press release from the ACLU offers a bit more information. http://www.aclu.org/news/2000/n102600.html

Response:

[anybody got updates on this story?] The most recent press release from the ACLU offers a bit more information. http://www.aclu.org/news/2000/n102600.html

The school has denied that the reason she was suspended was because of Wicca or because of a hex. The school said that it will contest the law suit vigorously. There is more information and some explanation in the post I made in the "Witch Trial" thread on 11-12-00. I will try to post updates as events warrant. There is an interesting ACLU web page on religious liberty in schools that has a number of Wiccan cases. I made a mistake when I posted the URL before so let me try again. http://www.religioustolerance.org/sch_clot.htm

Response:

Three questions… Timothy Blackbear is obviously a neglectful if not abusive father,

1. What makes you so sure her father was neglectful? This story is a small scale version of the nastiness happening in Palm Beach.

2. What does this have to do with Palm Beach? She ain’t no wiccan, so why are people pretending to care about a lowly xian

What makes you think she is Xian? She doesn’t look like she is Chinese. — Yohan the Lost House of the Crooked Path Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia! "The truth may be inane and moronic, but it’s still the truth."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If this girl spread a rumour that she cast a spell on a suggestable teacher in the bible belt, she friggin hexed him. At least according to some hermiteic schools of thought. Personally, I think she is merely a member of an opportunistic family. It is about money, and nothing else. Timothy Blackbear is obviously a neglectful if not abusive father, though now he cares about his daughter cause she is going to make him a bundle. The suit was filed before the family exhausted its options. I correponded with a reporter in Tulsa who told me that we haven’t heard the story. What we have heard is suspect. It should be noted that she is ROMAN CATHOLIC. She ain’t no wiccan, so why are people pretending to care about a lowly xian? This story is a small scale version of the nastiness happening in Palm Beach. [anybody got updates on this story?] Oklahoma school suspends girl for casting spell By Ben Fenwick OKLAHOMA CITY (Reuters) – An Oklahoma high school suspended a 15-year-old student after accusing her of casting a magic spell that caused a teacher to become sick, lawyers for the student said on Friday. The American Civil Liberties Union said it had filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Tulsa, Oklahoma, on behalf of student Brandi Blackbear, charging that the assistant principal of Union Intermediate High School in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, suspended her for 15 days last December for supposedly casting a spell. The suit also charged the Tulsa-area Union Public Schools with repeatedly violating Blackbear’s civil rights by seizing notebooks she used to write horror stories and barring her from drawing or wearing signs of the pagan religion Wicca. "It’s hard for me to believe that in the year 2000 I am walking into court to defend my daughter against charges of witchcraft brought by her own school," said Timothy Blackbear, Brandi’s father. His daughter is now a 10th grader. Joann Bell, executive director of the ACLU’s Oklahoma chapter, said the "outlandish accusations" had made Blackbear’s life at school unbearable. "I, for one, would like to see the so-called evidence this school has that a 15-year-old girl made a grown man sick by casting a magic spell," Bell said. A lawyer for the school district declined to comment. The lawsuit, filed on Thursday, alleges that Blackbear was summoned to the office of assistant principal Charlie Bushyhead last December after a teacher fell ill, and was questioned about her interest in Wicca. According to the lawsuit, Brandi Blackbear had read a library book about Wicca beliefs and, under aggressive interrogation by Bushyhead, said she might be a Wiccan. In fact, Blackbear is a Roman Catholic, according to the newspaper Tulsa World. "The interview culminated with Defendant Bushyhead accusing Plaintiff, Brandi Blackbear, of casting spells causing (a teacher at the school) … to be sick and to be hospitalised," the lawsuit said. The lawsuit stated that because of the "unknown cause" of the teacher’s illness, Bushyhead advised the 15-year-old girl "that she was an immediate threat to the school and summarily suspended her for what he arbitrarily determined to be a disruption of the education process." Doug Mann, the school district’s attorney, declined to comment, saying laws protecting the school records of juveniles barred him and the district from responding outside of court. "It’s totally unfair that we are gagged by federal and state law and they can say anything they want," Mann said. "If the parents will sign a release for what’s in the girl’s files, we will talk about the true facts." The lawsuit alleged Blackbear’s civil rights also were violated when school officials prohibited her from wearing or drawing in school any symbols related to Wicca, a religion that dates back to pre-Christian nature worship. The ACLU is seeking an undisclosed amount of punitive and financial damages for Blackbear, a declaration that the school violated the girl’s rights, an injunction preventing the school from banning the wearing of any non-Christian religious paraphernalia and an order expunging her school record. — emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired

Response:

If this girl spread a rumour that she cast a spell on a suggestable teacher in the bible belt, she friggin hexed him. At least according to some hermiteic schools of thought. Personally, I think she is merely a member of an opportunistic family. It is about money, and nothing else. Timothy Blackbear is obviously a neglectful if not abusive father, though now he cares about his daughter cause she is going to make him a bundle. The suit was filed before the family exhausted its options. I correponded with a reporter in Tulsa who told me that we haven’t heard the story. What we have heard is suspect. It should be noted that she is ROMAN CATHOLIC. She ain’t no wiccan, so why are people pretending to care about a lowly xian? This story is a small scale version of the nastiness happening in Palm Beach. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [anybody got updates on this story?] Oklahoma school suspends girl for casting spell By Ben Fenwick OKLAHOMA CITY (Reuters) – An Oklahoma high school suspended a 15-year-old student after accusing her of casting a magic spell that caused a teacher to become sick, lawyers for the student said on Friday. The American Civil Liberties Union said it had filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Tulsa, Oklahoma, on behalf of student Brandi Blackbear, charging that the assistant principal of Union Intermediate High School in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, suspended her for 15 days last December for supposedly casting a spell. The suit also charged the Tulsa-area Union Public Schools with repeatedly violating Blackbear’s civil rights by seizing notebooks she used to write horror stories and barring her from drawing or wearing signs of the pagan religion Wicca. "It’s hard for me to believe that in the year 2000 I am walking into court to defend my daughter against charges of witchcraft brought by her own school," said Timothy Blackbear, Brandi’s father. His daughter is now a 10th grader. Joann Bell, executive director of the ACLU’s Oklahoma chapter, said the "outlandish accusations" had made Blackbear’s life at school unbearable. "I, for one, would like to see the so-called evidence this school has that a 15-year-old girl made a grown man sick by casting a magic spell," Bell said. A lawyer for the school district declined to comment. The lawsuit, filed on Thursday, alleges that Blackbear was summoned to the office of assistant principal Charlie Bushyhead last December after a teacher fell ill, and was questioned about her interest in Wicca. According to the lawsuit, Brandi Blackbear had read a library book about Wicca beliefs and, under aggressive interrogation by Bushyhead, said she might be a Wiccan. In fact, Blackbear is a Roman Catholic, according to the newspaper Tulsa World. "The interview culminated with Defendant Bushyhead accusing Plaintiff, Brandi Blackbear, of casting spells causing (a teacher at the school) … to be sick and to be hospitalised," the lawsuit said. The lawsuit stated that because of the "unknown cause" of the teacher’s illness, Bushyhead advised the 15-year-old girl "that she was an immediate threat to the school and summarily suspended her for what he arbitrarily determined to be a disruption of the education process." Doug Mann, the school district’s attorney, declined to comment, saying laws protecting the school records of juveniles barred him and the district from responding outside of court. "It’s totally unfair that we are gagged by federal and state law and they can say anything they want," Mann said. "If the parents will sign a release for what’s in the girl’s files, we will talk about the true facts." The lawsuit alleged Blackbear’s civil rights also were violated when school officials prohibited her from wearing or drawing in school any symbols related to Wicca, a religion that dates back to pre-Christian nature worship. The ACLU is seeking an undisclosed amount of punitive and financial damages for Blackbear, a declaration that the school violated the girl’s rights, an injunction preventing the school from banning the wearing of any non-Christian religious paraphernalia and an order expunging her school record. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired

Response:

Where Democrat diversity, tolerance stop

admin — Fri, 15 Sep 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

"Suzanne" wrote in message

news:#71WNjuHAHA.250@cpmsnbbsa09… > The party should "be more open and welcome pro-life members of the party," > Kerschen said. "For example, when a pro-life Democratic candidate runs for > office, they need to be supportive."

Oh, you mean just like the Republican party should be more welcome and open to pro-choice members? Right? Can you say "litmus test?" The litmus test the Republicans have on the issue of abortion is very stringent. Either way, both parties have active members that do not agree with the party line on some key issues, including abortion. > "One is that if the Democratic Party in all other ways is good on social > justice and life issues, such as welfare and family leave, then maybe it > balances out. But, on the other hand, there are some who say the abortion > issue is paramount." > "First you have to have life," she continued. "Otherwise liberty and the > pursuit of happiness mean nothing. Then you have a fatal flaw."

Would you chide the Democrats for not allowing bigoted members to get up and state how much they think this country should be for whites only? Fortunately, few Democrats hold that view, but some do. Why is it any worse to shut out the views of the bigoted, but not those anti-abortion supporters who by definition support involuntary servitude?

Response:

————————————————————————— – —- Where Democrat diversity, tolerance stop Pro-lifers wage uphill fight against ‘wrong stand on great moral issue’ ————————————————————————— – — Sinclair Oubre of Port Arthur, Texas, comes from three generations of working-class, pro-union Americans and has dedicated his life to the cause of organized labor. A member of the Seafarers International Union and an active Merchant Marine, Oubre has spent one month a year for the last 10 years at sea. He’s been involved in organizing offshore workers in Houma, La., and he’s helped with the effort to organize workers at a Houston plastic sack company that employed undocumented aliens from China and Central America. Oubre not only talks passionately about his Democratic Party principles, he lives them out. But when it comes to the subject of abortion, this old-school Catholic Democrat keeps relatively quiet to avoid "screaming matches" with most members of his party. And the abortion rights proponents tend to keep their distance from the subject as well, as they are likely tipped-off to Oubre’s position on the subject by the clothes he wears. You see, Oubre is known to his community as Father Sinclair — a priest who, though a devout Democrat, is staunchly pro-life. Father Sinclair is part of a small but determined camp attempting to broaden the Democratic Party’s position on abortion — or, in terms more familiar to the Republican Party, to build a "big tent." There’s even a little-known organization working to that end called Democrats For Life of America. The national organization, along with its handful of state chapters and affiliates, has dedicated itself to "elect pro-life Democrats to office, support pro-life Democrats while in an elected position, promote a pro-life plank in the Democratic Party platform, achieve legislation that protects unborn human life and participate actively in Democratic Party functions and offices." "We must be being heard a little bit, because they kept the language of inclusion in the platform, which had appeared in ‘96 for the first time," said Lois Kerschen, president of DFLA. Although the Democratic Party’s platform says it is the party that represents the "pro-choice" movement, it now also expressly recognizes the pro-life minority of the party in a phrase added at the 1996 national convention. "They have lost many, many, many members of the party over abortion. They’ve got to do something to bring those members back," said Kerschen. "Party leadership has been very successful in projecting the image that the Democratic Party is 100 percent pro-abortion, and that’s not true." Kerschen described the Democrat pro-life movement’s relationship with the party as "mostly hostile," saying party officials have even refused to acknowledge pro-life candidates. Beverly Clarke, a black female Democrat from Houston, ran for public office in 1994 and ‘96, Kerschen said. But when a voter called the Harris County Democratic Party for more information about the candidate, officials there did not even acknowledge her candidacy as a Democrat. Clarke eventually changed her registration to Republican in 1997. The party should "be more open and welcome pro-life members of the party," Kerschen said. "For example, when a pro-life Democratic candidate runs for office, they need to be supportive." "In some places, they are starting to understand that if they don’t appeal to the pro-life members of the party, they are going to lose elections — and they have been losing elections," she said. DFLA maintains a list of pro-life candidates from around the United States as well as current members of Congress. One candidate, Dr. Paul Perry from Indiana’s 8th congressional district, outlined the origins of his pro-life position. "I feel strongly as a physician that, not only am I sworn to protect and preserve life, but I think for moral and religious reasons, that extends to those that are born and unborn," he said, noting that he is a Roman Catholic. The southern Indiana area has a strong pro-life constituency on both sides of the political aisle, the orthopedic surgeon said. "I would say I’m probably with the majority of my party in terms of local politics," Perry remarked. "That’s not true nationally." The victor of a contested primary, Perry’s opponent was backed by the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League — a formidable advocacy group commonly known as NARAL. However, Perry "doesn’t think the election was necessarily swung on the abortion issue," which is not a "litmus test" for Democrats in his area. "If progress is going to be made (nationally) on this issue in terms of advocating the pro-life cause, its going to have to happen on both sides of the aisle," he stressed, pointing to the long list of pro-life Democrats currently in Congress. WorldNetDaily contacted several such congressmen listed on the DFLA website, including Michigan Rep. David Bonior, New York Rep. Joseph Crowley and Ohio’s Rep. James Traficant. None returned calls. While at the DNC convention in Los Angeles last week, DFLA volunteers passed out flyers for a reception honoring the late Gov. Robert Casey of Pennsylvania — a pro-life Democrat who was barred from speaking at the national convention because of his views on abortion. Delegates receiving the flyers would occasionally wad up the paper and throw it back at the volunteers, Kerschen said. In one instance she recalled, a wheelchair-bound volunteer with cerebral palsy was harassed by abortion rights advocates passing out their own flyers for a different event. The disabled woman was "in their way," Kerschen said. "It can be very difficult to be pro-life and Democratic. But it’s the most consistent viewpoint indeed. It’s a consistent life ethic," she added, saying, "If we care about women, we should be against abortion because abortion is violent, and it hurts women, and it kills their children." "It is not compassionate to teach a teen-ager to kill," she continued, noting numerous reports of dead or abandoned infants of teen-age mothers. "It teaches them the wrong values. We’ve been telling them (teens) that these children are disposable. It carries forward. We tell them, ‘It’s your property. You can do what you want with it.’" Kerschen believes solutions to various life circumstances complicated by unwanted pregnancies exist without resorting to abortion. "No woman wants an abortion. She wants a solution to her problem. And that’s what we offer," she explained. "Offer them whatever help they need. And that’s regardless of age. The needs will differ, perhaps, but we need to give them all the support they want. If we really care about women, let’s go to their root problems." Having worked at a crisis pregnancy center, Kerschen said she saw many women pursue abortion because of their partners’ insistence. "As a feminist, that offends me," she exclaimed passionately. DFLA board member David Carlin, a former Rhode Island state senator, makes a political argument in an editorial against what he calls the "pro-abortion" sentiment of the Democratic Party. "Democrats For Life of America, Inc. will not bother making the philosophical argument against abortion," he wrote. "For the last 30 years, that argument has been very well made by others. Instead, we intend to make a political argument against being pro-abortion. We contend that being pro-abortion is dangerous to the long-term political health of the national Democratic Party." "The Democrats have always been the party of the relatively non-privileged, the party of those in the lower half of the socio-economic scale. But this is not the demographic base of pro-abortion sentiment; if anything, it’s the base of pro-life sentiment. The demographic base of pro-abortion sentiment is found in the upper-middle classes. In other words, it’s found among people who have traditionally not been among the natural constituents of the Democratic Party. This is producing a demographic distortion in the party. "What had always been a party of the masses is increasingly becoming a party of socio-economic elites. This new image — the elite image — is driving many traditional Democrats into the arms of the Republicans (who, as the result of abortion and other moral issues, are becoming less of an elite party and more of a mass party)." Kerschen echoed Carlin’s statement when she said, "The Democratic Party always says that it’s the party of the people," but it ignores polls showing a majority of Americans are pro-life. A 1999 Gallup survey cited on DFLA’s website showed that nearly three out of four adults in America would outlaw more than 90 percent of abortions. "Isn’t it time that the Democratic Party’s platform reflected the view of the people?" the group states. As for the party’s presidential candidate, Kerschen said the Gore-Lieberman ticket "presents a very difficult situation for pro-life Democrats." There are two schools of thought when electing national leaders, she said. "One is that if the Democratic Party in all other ways is good on social justice and life issues, such as welfare and family leave, then maybe it balances out. But, on the other hand, there are some who say the abortion issue is paramount." "First you have to have life," she continued. "Otherwise liberty and the pursuit of happiness mean nothing. Then you have a fatal flaw."

Response:

Feds Topple Virgin Mary statue in easter raid!

admin — Sat, 22 Apr 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Federal agents in their raid on the Miami home of Elian Gonzales kicked a cameraman in the stomach, used the butt of their weapon on another in the home, and destroyed numerous things in the home including the toppling of the large statue of the virgin Mary.

Response:

Does that mean that ReichMarshal Reno’s Gastapo stormtroopers are actually Protestants. Why would Protestants willing serve a Nazi whore like Reno? * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Yes, "Raul", continue… You’ve no trolling subtlety about you at all, not at all. Alan

Response:

"Arco" wrote Does that mean that ReichMarshal Reno’s Gastapo stormtroopers are actually Protestants.

No, didn’t you read the mayor’s comments- Miami Mayor Joe Carollo said he was outraged by the raid over the Easter weekend.. "These are atheists. They don’t believe in God," RG

Response:

Alan Watch the video of the uncle’s daughter giving NBC crew a tour of the home after the raid. Somebody with a video capture needs to post ~that~ picture! RG

Response:

Yes, yes, but the mayor is a member of RCC, of course he would say such a thing because his puppetmasters at the Archdiocese told him to [probably in exchange for a personal "go" at the alterboy of the week]. Everybody knows that atheists don’t attack Catholics, only Protestants would do such a thing. UGH, the Protestant vulgarity of carrying a gun in the presence of "The Holy Mother". On the upside though, they could not be all bad if they assaulted members of the Leftist media. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Hold it Alan, Raul is no "troll"! He is only reporting the facts. Why does that make you nervous? Skip confession this week and your afraid the priest will remember that you are one of those federal NAZI thugs? * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGIJ3KCKD7C.html Elian Seized on Christians’ Holiest Week By Julia Lieblich The Associated Press Federal agents seized Elian Gonzalez on Holy Saturday, or the Angelic Night, a time of sadness and joy for Christians, marking the end of Lent and heralding Easter. The timing is not lost on Miami’s mostly Roman Catholic demonstrators, who have been praying and holding vigils outside Elian’s Miami relatives’ home for months in an attempt to prevent the boy’s return to communist Cuba. "This is like crucifying the Messiah all over again. This is a slap in the face to the Cuban-American community and the Christian community," demonstrator Ralph Anrrich said outside the house after Elian was removed. "This is the second sacrifice. The same thing happened to Christ. So Elian is the symbol of Christ," said another demonstrator, 76-year-old Juan Alejandro Milian. The demonstrators have long portrayed Elian as their angel, some believing he has mystical powers because of a survival at sea from a shipwreck that killed his mother and 10 other people. The drama of Christendom’s holiest week only added to their fervor. Religious icons, flowers and photos of the 6-year-old Cuban boy were in makeshift shrines throughout heavily Catholic Little Havana on Good Friday, which marks the crucifixion of Jesus. One neighbor set up a life-sized statue of St. Lazarus, one of Cuba’s most revered religious symbols. The statue, draped in a purple cape and propped up by crutches, had a photo of Elian at its feet, next to a printout saying "God can make the impossible possible." At the home of Elian’s great-uncle, Lazaro Gonzalez, a painting of a Cuban saint, the Virgin of Charity of Cobre, hung on the front door. Cubans say she appears to refugees fleeing on rafts to the United States. A mural near the house depicts Elian inside an inner tube in rough seas, protected by dolphins, long a Christian symbol of love and tenderness and the desire to know Jesus. A woman resembling the Virgin Mary stands over him, and a pair of giant outstretched hands reach down from the sky. One of the two fishermen who rescued Elian on Thanksgiving, Donato Dalrymple, saw mahi mahi – not porpoises – near the boy. Still, he believes the dolphin story. "I would like to believe that God used the dolphins as an instrument to keep him safe in that water," Dalrymple said.

Response:

Do we all have short memories or do you remember Clinton’s carefulness to not give offense to other I guess Christianity is not as important to Clinton as Islam. RG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Elian Seized on Christians’ Holiest Week By Julia Lieblich The Associated Press Federal agents seized Elian Gonzalez on Holy Saturday, or the Angelic Night, a time of sadness and joy for Christians, marking the end of Lent and heralding Easter. The timing is not lost on Miami’s mostly Roman Catholic demonstrators, who have been praying and holding vigils outside Elian’s Miami relatives’ home for months in an attempt to prevent the boy’s return to communist Cuba. "This is like crucifying the Messiah all over again. This is a slap in the face to the Cuban-American community and the Christian community," demonstrator Ralph Anrrich said outside the house after Elian was removed. "This is the second sacrifice. The same thing happened to Christ. So Elian is the symbol of Christ," said another demonstrator, 76-year-old Juan Alejandro Milian. The demonstrators have long portrayed Elian as their angel, some believing he has mystical powers because of a survival at sea from a shipwreck that killed his mother and 10 other people. The drama of Christendom’s holiest week only added to their fervor. Religious icons, flowers and photos of the 6-year-old Cuban boy were in makeshift shrines throughout heavily Catholic Little Havana on Good Friday, which marks the crucifixion of Jesus. One neighbor set up a life-sized statue of St. Lazarus, one of Cuba’s most revered religious symbols. The statue, draped in a purple cape and propped up by crutches, had a photo of Elian at its feet, next to a printout saying "God can make the impossible possible." At the home of Elian’s great-uncle, Lazaro Gonzalez, a painting of a Cuban saint, the Virgin of Charity of Cobre, hung on the front door. Cubans say she appears to refugees fleeing on rafts to the United States. A mural near the house depicts Elian inside an inner tube in rough seas, protected by dolphins, long a Christian symbol of love and tenderness and the desire to know Jesus. A woman resembling the Virgin Mary stands over him, and a pair of giant outstretched hands reach down from the sky. One of the two fishermen who rescued Elian on Thanksgiving, Donato Dalrymple, saw mahi mahi – not porpoises – near the boy. Still, he believes the dolphin story. "I would like to believe that God used the dolphins as an instrument to keep him safe in that water," Dalrymple said.

Response:

Comparing Elian to Christ… What will those Americans do next. Change the statue of Liberty to that of Mary of the Cuban angel? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGIJ3KCKD7C.html Elian Seized on Christians’ Holiest Week By Julia Lieblich The Associated Press Federal agents seized Elian Gonzalez on Holy Saturday, or the Angelic Night, a time of sadness and joy for Christians, marking the end of Lent and heralding Easter. The timing is not lost on Miami’s mostly Roman Catholic demonstrators, who have been praying and holding vigils outside Elian’s Miami relatives’ home for months in an attempt to prevent the boy’s return to communist Cuba. "This is like crucifying the Messiah all over again. This is a slap in the face to the Cuban-American community and the Christian community," demonstrator Ralph Anrrich said outside the house after Elian was removed. "This is the second sacrifice. The same thing happened to Christ. So Elian is the symbol of Christ," said another demonstrator, 76-year-old Juan Alejandro Milian. The demonstrators have long portrayed Elian as their angel, some believing he has mystical powers because of a survival at sea from a shipwreck that killed his mother and 10 other people. The drama of Christendom’s holiest week only added to their fervor. Religious icons, flowers and photos of the 6-year-old Cuban boy were in makeshift shrines throughout heavily Catholic Little Havana on Good Friday, which marks the crucifixion of Jesus. One neighbor set up a life-sized statue of St. Lazarus, one of Cuba’s most revered religious symbols. The statue, draped in a purple cape and propped up by crutches, had a photo of Elian at its feet, next to a printout saying "God can make the impossible possible." At the home of Elian’s great-uncle, Lazaro Gonzalez, a painting of a Cuban saint, the Virgin of Charity of Cobre, hung on the front door. Cubans say she appears to refugees fleeing on rafts to the United States. A mural near the house depicts Elian inside an inner tube in rough seas, protected by dolphins, long a Christian symbol of love and tenderness and the desire to know Jesus. A woman resembling the Virgin Mary stands over him, and a pair of giant outstretched hands reach down from the sky. One of the two fishermen who rescued Elian on Thanksgiving, Donato Dalrymple, saw mahi mahi – not porpoises – near the boy. Still, he believes the dolphin story. "I would like to believe that God used the dolphins as an instrument to keep him safe in that water," Dalrymple said.

Response:

Do we all have short memories or do you remember Clinton’s carefulness to not give offense to other I guess Christianity is not as important to Clinton as Islam. RG

Since when is the kidnapping of children permitted in the US, Raul? Would you rather live the old farwest way? The law is the law. I am not looking for sympathy. I’m neither Cuban nor South American, nor am i a Communist if that is what you want to know. Minority groups don’t run my country. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Elian Seized on Christians’ Holiest Week By Julia Lieblich The Associated Press Federal agents seized Elian Gonzalez on Holy Saturday, or the Angelic Night, a time of sadness and joy for Christians, marking the end of Lent and heralding Easter. The timing is not lost on Miami’s mostly Roman Catholic demonstrators, who have been praying and holding vigils outside Elian’s Miami relatives’ home for months in an attempt to prevent the boy’s return to communist Cuba. "This is like crucifying the Messiah all over again. This is a slap in the face to the Cuban-American community and the Christian community," demonstrator Ralph Anrrich said outside the house after Elian was removed. "This is the second sacrifice. The same thing happened to Christ. So Elian is the symbol of Christ," said another demonstrator, 76-year-old Juan Alejandro Milian. The demonstrators have long portrayed Elian as their angel, some believing he has mystical powers because of a survival at sea from a shipwreck that killed his mother and 10 other people. The drama of Christendom’s holiest week only added to their fervor. Religious icons, flowers and photos of the 6-year-old Cuban boy were in makeshift shrines throughout heavily Catholic Little Havana on Good Friday, which marks the crucifixion of Jesus. One neighbor set up a life-sized statue of St. Lazarus, one of Cuba’s most revered religious symbols. The statue, draped in a purple cape and propped up by crutches, had a photo of Elian at its feet, next to a printout saying "God can make the impossible possible." At the home of Elian’s great-uncle, Lazaro Gonzalez, a painting of a Cuban saint, the Virgin of Charity of Cobre, hung on the front door. Cubans say she appears to refugees fleeing on rafts to the United States. A mural near the house depicts Elian inside an inner tube in rough seas, protected by dolphins, long a Christian symbol of love and tenderness and the desire to know Jesus. A woman resembling the Virgin Mary stands over him, and a pair of giant outstretched hands reach down from the sky. One of the two fishermen who rescued Elian on Thanksgiving, Donato Dalrymple, saw mahi mahi – not porpoises – near the boy. Still, he believes the dolphin story. "I would like to believe that God used the dolphins as an instrument to keep him safe in that water," Dalrymple said.

Response:

Since when is the kidnapping of children permitted in the US, Raul?

5 AM saturday morning. Would you rather live the old farwest way? The law is the law.

No law was being upheld, the judge this week told them to have custody while awaiting the trial to be resoved through mediation. Reno didn’t get what she wanted so she did what she could do, NOT what she had to do to uphold the law. Minority groups don’t run my country.

I guess it is apparent that Castro is running mine. RG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Elian Seized on Christians’ Holiest Week By Julia Lieblich The Associated Press Federal agents seized Elian Gonzalez on Holy Saturday, or the Angelic Night, a time of sadness and joy for Christians, marking the end of Lent and heralding Easter. The timing is not lost on Miami’s mostly Roman Catholic demonstrators, who have been praying and holding vigils outside Elian’s Miami relatives’ home for months in an attempt to prevent the boy’s return to communist Cuba. "This is like crucifying the Messiah all over again. This is a slap in the face to the Cuban-American community and the Christian community," demonstrator Ralph Anrrich said outside the house after Elian was removed. "This is the second sacrifice. The same thing happened to Christ. So Elian is the symbol of Christ," said another demonstrator, 76-year-old Juan Alejandro Milian. The demonstrators have long portrayed Elian as their angel, some believing he has mystical powers because of a survival at sea from a shipwreck that killed his mother and 10 other people. The drama of Christendom’s holiest week only added to their fervor. Religious icons, flowers and photos of the 6-year-old Cuban boy were in makeshift shrines throughout heavily Catholic Little Havana on Good Friday, which marks the crucifixion of Jesus. One neighbor set up a life-sized statue of St. Lazarus, one of Cuba’s most revered religious symbols. The statue, draped in a purple cape and propped up by crutches, had a photo of Elian at its feet, next to a printout saying "God can make the impossible possible." At the home of Elian’s great-uncle, Lazaro Gonzalez, a painting of a Cuban saint, the Virgin of Charity of Cobre, hung on the front door. Cubans say she appears to refugees fleeing on rafts to the United States. A mural near the house depicts Elian inside an inner tube in rough seas, protected by dolphins, long a Christian symbol of love and tenderness and the desire to know Jesus. A woman resembling the Virgin Mary stands over him, and a pair of giant outstretched hands reach down from the sky. One of the two fishermen who rescued Elian on Thanksgiving, Donato Dalrymple, saw mahi mahi – not porpoises – near the boy. Still, he believes the dolphin story. "I would like to believe that God used the dolphins as an instrument to keep him safe in that water," Dalrymple said.

Response:

Does that mean that ReichMarshal Reno’s Gastapo stormtroopers are actually Protestants. Why would Protestants willing serve a Nazi whore like Reno?

Because Reno being a Protestant in the Protestant US would naturally be a Protestant Nazi LOL

Response:

Since when is the kidnapping of children permitted in the US, Raul? 5 AM saturday morning.

It wasn’t kidnapping Raul, it was an application of the US law against kidnapping. Would you rather live the old farwest way? The law is the law. No law was being upheld, the judge this week told them to have custody while awaiting the trial to be resoved through mediation. Reno didn’t get what she wanted so she did what she could do, NOT what she had to do to uphold the law.

And, she upheld the law some pseudo Americans thought they were the law. Minority groups don’t run my country. I guess it is apparent that Castro is running mine.

No. I guess you have some spanish affiliation and it afflicts you that the US law should be applied against your spanish heritage. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -RG Elian Seized on Christians’ Holiest Week By Julia Lieblich The Associated Press Federal agents seized Elian Gonzalez on Holy Saturday, or the Angelic Night, a time of sadness and joy for Christians, marking the end of Lent and heralding Easter. The timing is not lost on Miami’s mostly Roman Catholic demonstrators, who have been praying and holding vigils outside Elian’s Miami relatives’ home for months in an attempt to prevent the boy’s return to communist Cuba. "This is like crucifying the Messiah all over again. This is a slap in the face to the Cuban-American community and the Christian community," demonstrator Ralph Anrrich said outside the house after Elian was removed. "This is the second sacrifice. The same thing happened to Christ. So Elian is the symbol of Christ," said another demonstrator, 76-year-old Juan Alejandro Milian. The demonstrators have long portrayed Elian as their angel, some believing he has mystical powers because of a survival at sea from a shipwreck that killed his mother and 10 other people. The drama of Christendom’s holiest week only added to their fervor. Religious icons, flowers and photos of the 6-year-old Cuban boy were in makeshift shrines throughout heavily Catholic Little Havana on Good Friday, which marks the crucifixion of Jesus. One neighbor set up a life-sized statue of St. Lazarus, one of Cuba’s most revered religious symbols. The statue, draped in a purple cape and propped up by crutches, had a photo of Elian at its feet, next to a printout saying "God can make the impossible possible." At the home of Elian’s great-uncle, Lazaro Gonzalez, a painting of a Cuban saint, the Virgin of Charity of Cobre, hung on the front door. Cubans say she appears to refugees fleeing on rafts to the United States. A mural near the house depicts Elian inside an inner tube in rough seas, protected by dolphins, long a Christian symbol of love and tenderness and the desire to know Jesus. A woman resembling the Virgin Mary stands over him, and a pair of giant outstretched hands reach down from the sky. One of the two fishermen who rescued Elian on Thanksgiving, Donato Dalrymple, saw mahi mahi – not porpoises – near the boy. Still, he believes the dolphin story. "I would like to believe that God used the dolphins as an instrument to keep him safe in that water," Dalrymple said.

Response:

The Holy Virgin Mary is on the side of Raul this time. It is a Spanish Virgin and you don’t touch Spanish Virgins, says Raul.

Response:

America, you wish to teach the world. Tell me one thing. What is the oath of office of your President? Is it not to defend the interests of the United States? Then tell me, what is the interest of the United States in the Elian affair? Who cares about your individual sentiments? You are not running a back street affair here, you are running a country. Politics is politics, not a freecell game. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Achirami" Since when is the kidnapping of children permitted in the US, Raul? 5 AM saturday morning. It wasn’t kidnapping Raul, it was an application of the US law against kidnapping. ??? Uh, Nope. Nobody was convicted or even indicted for kidnapping. I think you don’t understand U.S. laws very well. Nobody will be charged with kidnapping, either, even though that is essentially what the Federal Government did. Would you rather live the old farwest way? The law is the law. No law was being upheld, the judge this week told them to have custody while awaiting the trial to be resoved through mediation. Reno didn’t get what she wanted so she did what she could do, NOT what she had to do to uphold the law. And, she upheld the law some pseudo Americans thought they were the law. Nope, that judge is not a "pseudo American" and the executive branch has no power to defy such a court order. This is only one of hundreds of impeachable offenses that the Clinton administration has perpetrated and that no previous President since WWII would have dared to do. We are effectively living under a dictatorship and rule of law is dead, at least when it comes to the federal govt. Minority groups don’t run my country. I guess it is apparent that Castro is running mine. No. I guess you have some spanish affiliation and it afflicts you that the US law should be applied against your spanish heritage. No law was applied. There was no trial, no hearing. Clinton simply decided to act in spite of and above the law. As if he were the law. Most Americans will never know this, however, since they get their information from the TV, which is mostly controlled by the liberal establishment. Most Americans do not realize that Elian is being sent back to be raised in a totalitarian communist country because they get their information from the mass media. RG Elian Seized on Christians’ Holiest Week By Julia Lieblich The Associated Press Federal agents seized Elian Gonzalez on Holy Saturday, or the Angelic Night, a time of sadness and joy for Christians, marking the end of Lent and heralding Easter. The timing is not lost on Miami’s mostly Roman Catholic demonstrators, who have been praying and holding vigils outside Elian’s Miami relatives’ home for months in an attempt to prevent the boy’s return to communist Cuba. "This is like crucifying the Messiah all over again. This is a slap in the face to the Cuban-American community and the Christian community," demonstrator Ralph Anrrich said outside the house after Elian was removed. "This is the second sacrifice. The same thing happened to Christ. So Elian is the symbol of Christ," said another demonstrator, 76-year-old Juan Alejandro Milian. The demonstrators have long portrayed Elian as their angel, some believing he has mystical powers because of a survival at sea from a shipwreck that killed his mother and 10 other people. The drama of Christendom’s holiest week only added to their fervor. Religious icons, flowers and photos of the 6-year-old Cuban boy were in makeshift shrines throughout heavily Catholic Little Havana on Good Friday, which marks the crucifixion of Jesus. One neighbor set up a life-sized statue of St. Lazarus, one of Cuba’s most revered religious symbols. The statue, draped in a purple cape and propped up by crutches, had a photo of Elian at its feet, next to a printout saying "God can make the impossible possible." At the home of Elian’s great-uncle, Lazaro Gonzalez, a painting of a Cuban saint, the Virgin of Charity of Cobre, hung on the front door. Cubans say she appears to refugees fleeing on rafts to the United States. A mural near the house depicts Elian inside an inner tube in rough seas, protected by dolphins, long a Christian symbol of love and tenderness and the desire to know Jesus. A woman resembling the Virgin Mary stands over him, and a pair of giant outstretched hands reach down from the sky. One of the two fishermen who rescued Elian on Thanksgiving, Donato Dalrymple, saw mahi mahi – not porpoises – near the boy. Still, he believes the dolphin story. "I would like to believe that God used the dolphins as an instrument to keep him safe in that water," Dalrymple said.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Minority groups don’t run my country. I guess it is apparent that Castro is running mine. No. I guess you have some spanish affiliation and it afflicts you that the US law should be applied against your spanish heritage. "Raul" is a nick, "Raul" has not a bit of any spanish heritage. However, all freedom loving anti-communist americans are proud to stand with freedom loving cuban americans today! As a U.S. Army decorated war veteran I am completely ashamed of my country today. This is Ruby Ridge, and Waco all over again. Rather than learning from mistakes they keep getting bolder and bolder. RG

Why don’t you settle your problems with Cuba and then you would not have to deal with kidnapping Cuban children. Or is it that you have lost the meaning of what kidnapping is. How would you like a foreign country to hold your own kid as hostage. A few of my friends were in the Marines and they were decorated as well. So, you can keep your decorations but don’t try to impress me with decorations. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do we all have short memories or do you remember Clinton’s carefulness to not give offense to other I guess Christianity is not as important to Clinton as Islam. Christianity will become real important when Jesus tells Clinton and Janet Nero to "Go To Hell". I just wish it would be "sooner rather than later". And they can take their gun-toting, America hating, family destroying, Castro fellating, terrorist goon squad with them. I guess shooting unarmed mothers in the head their children in the back, and burning men women and children in their home – after gassing them and driving over them with tanks are just happy reflections of days gone by. BTW – Where is the Coward in Chief ? Hiding behind the skirt of some woman again ? Of course, most ‘Americans’ (mostly products of Govn’mnt schools) will just smile and wave to the passengers in the box cars…. "Hey honey… what’s on TV tonight?" AWG <0<

America, Big Brother, can you not admit that you had kidnapped a child that wasn’t yours?

Response:

Comparing Elian to Christ… What will those Americans do next. Change the statue of Liberty to that of Mary of the Cuban angel? No, I was thinking of a ten story statue of Janet Nero made of pig-iron. We would call it the Statue of Tyranny. We could sink it in Love Canal or some other Superfund site, or in the ashes of the Davidians Waco home. AWG <0<

Look, you don’t have to go Waco because a Court order was applied. You are never in agreement with the choice of your District Attorneys, so what’s new.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – America, you wish to teach the world. Tell me one thing. What is the oath of office of your President? Is it not to defend the interests of the United States? Then tell me, what is the interest of the United States in the Elian affair? Who cares about your individual sentiments? You are not running a back street affair here, you are running a country. Politics is politics, not a freecell game. The Marxist in Chief is not yet (though he wants to be) a dictator. There is the Cuban Adjustment Act that clearly states that ~any~ Cuban who washes up on the US shores is automatically given special status in applying citizenship. That is the law. Juan Gonzalez has ~no~ legal standing. He lost his legal right to custody four years ago. That is the law. Fidel Castro has already told us that Elian will be placed in a reeducation camp – not his "father’s" hovel. So it is not even a Father and Son custody case – it is more of a expidition treaty – which we have none with Cuba. In matters of child custody disputes it is ~not~ within the jurisidiction of the Federal Government – so says the nineth and tenth amendments to the US Constitution. That is the Law. In matters of Immigration, The USC requires that a standardized system of Immigration is maintained. Clearly, the FedGov is violating both the principle and spirit of this law. Ignorance and contempt for the law is one of the reasons that all Turd World countries are in such a deplorable state. A good example of this can be found in Zimbabwe where the rule of law has been abandoned and the blacks are now killing whites for the land. This is OK because emotions and sentiments are more important than The Law. Ignorance and contempt for God’s Law is the reason man shall build his own hell before he winds up in God’s. On a Protestant slant, one of the reasons I detest the PoMos is that they are generally lawless, emotionally driven, selfish and ignorant deadbeats who will accept anything that is properly packaged. The Gov’mnts case has been wonderfully packaged by the mainstream Media (who love marxism and tyranny) in the guise of a Hallmark Moment – Father and his Son.

If you have such an Adjustment Act that permits you to treat children as would be a lost article or a lost animal, don’t you think that law should be changed? This has nothing to do with communism or religion, this was a typical abuse of power by a minority group. Talk to me about Rhodesia-Zimbabwe. That’s where the British found an ancient civilization they claimed was that of a Jewish tribe. Well, i will say that if the British came up to that conclusion, Americans can do better. Those who killed should have foreseen that others could also kill. Religious discrimination, racial discrimination, political disputes are killers. Protestants not exempted. If America was to give to third countries, America would become a third country. And you are going to tell me that a Cuban child refugee is more important than American children as a whole.

Response:

And you are going to tell me that a Cuban child refugee is more important than American children as a whole. I am here to say freedoms are more important. I have no emotional attachment to Elian or to the Cubans. I am very interested in why 34,000 illegal immigrants who have committed felonies are released back into the US society rather than be deported. Where is the rule of law here ? Fiddle says "Salt!" and Clinton says "how high". AWG <0<

There is a solution. Help the third country and their problems will be yours. Cuba, to your standards is a third country isn’t it? Like a Mexican president once said. We need not invade the US, the US will be Mexican in a few hundred years or so. . Not the exact words but it means what he said. Freedom is a big word. Your freedom or that of others.

Response:

Why don’t you settle your problems with Cuba As soon as Cuba returns the billions of dollars in property it stole when Castro took power there will be something to talk about. Untill then he is just a common thief.

I know about the property but did America pay off the British for stealing their property? Which mafiosi owned those properties? Is America that short of money? Who are the claimants? The dead or the living? Corporations i suppose. and then you would not have to deal with kidnapping Cuban children. You must not know much about the story. The father hardly knew the child and knew he was going to america with his mother. The father was fine till Castro stepped in. All Reno had to do was wait for the court ruling or successful mediation which is what the judges ruling 3 days ago told her to do.

You are going to tell me that the Feds just rammed in there without proper Court mandate? I may not know all the story but i’m not that stupid. Orders were given to the Feds for otherwise they wouldn’t have been there. Those orders did not originate from the parish church. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -RG

Response:

"Should the Bible be X-Rated?"

admin — Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

That shows how educated you are [not]. The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew. You are saying that the name of God changes and since He is called God, Lord God, or Jehovah, that they are different gods. That is incorrect. The different renderings of the name are from translators using different language, like my biological FATHER is my Dad, Daddy, Pop, Old Man, etc but they are all the same person. In Hebrew, the names you say are different, are ALL either the Hewbrew Tetragrammaton YHWH (the personal name of God as dictated to Moses), Adonai, and Elohim. Adonai and Elohim are more repectful forms of the name of God because the Hebrews thought saying His full name was disrespectful, like you’d call your science teacher Mr. Nye instead of Bill. And the form Jehovah comes from the practice of whenever the Tetragrammaton was written, it was filled in with the vowels from Adonai, making it YaHoWaH, which, when Latinized, forms Jehovah. But they are all the same God. Period. Just like you call someone you know a "friend," by their name, say, "Edward", or by a nickname, like "Ed." You really ought to know what you are talking about next time you decide to make an erroneous statement, okay? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Considering that the Bible is riddled with underlying subliminal messages that spread evil and violence, and are posed as being dictated by God (erroneously), then it should be re-written to show it in a plain light so that people can really decide what’s what. People just skip over "god’s" name all the time and think that it is the same entity being referenced each time. Even the Genesis shows 3 different entities: God, the Lord God, and the Lord. Every time Moses claims that he gets evil instruction, he attributes it to "Jehovah". Even Moses priests who follow after him commune with "Jehovah". Yet, the House of Isreal communes with the One [true] God. Definitely two different entities. So, I think that firstly, people have to learn to read the bible with awareness. Then, they can pick easily through the 3 messages that the bible contains on the surface: an evil message, a positive message, and the truth of it all. And, then of course, outside of all this, we have GOD. Hav’ah Should the Bible be X-Rated? Kept out of reach of children? Not only does it seem objectionable on sexual grounds but also on violence grounds. Just like TV today! How about Moses having all the captured soldiers and older women of the enemy murdered, and arranging for the mass rape of 32,000 captured virgins? For the younger women and children, Moses exhorted his soldiers to: "kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the [32,000] young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. …" Numbers 31:25-35. student

Response:

Yes, I am aware than Elohim is plural, hence bnai Elohim, Sons of God. I am also aware that Hebrew does have multiple meanings and word plays. At most, you have had 100 years to study it (assuming you’re that old and started at a very young age) whereas Rabbis have had thousands of years to study, interpret, and clarify it. Have you read the Talmud? That may clear many things up. The MEANING behind it is ONE GOD. It would have been God’s will to have it written the way it was, but if there are different "Gods" then why, repeatedly throughout the Torah AND the New Testament is it said "I am the Lord your God" "There is but One God" etc? "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one LORD." Deuteronomy 6:4 "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?…" Malachi 2:10 "And Jesus said unto them, ‘Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God." Mark 10:18 "Is He the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes,of the Gentiles also." Romans 3:29 If you’re into perverting the OT & NT then why not address the apocypha or psuedepigrapha and how they emphasize ONE GOD, a God of love? Or maybe the Bible Code in the Tanakh? Why not attack that and use it to disprove its message of a benevolent God? Because if you did, your logic would fail. Ever thought that the plural being used refers to God and His Son (who was in a divine existence before man was made and before he was born to Mary)? You are also ignoring the fact that REAL PEOPLE feel things that you must not. Does God speak to you and tell you the Bible is erroneous? You seem so bent on making it look like something Evil maybe you yourself are Evil. I don’t mean to make fun of you or anything, but your views are extremist and I have yet to see any proof. The Bible is the most scientifically accurate of all scripture as well (I won’t get into that now), and spreads, in its truest form, love. Of coure, if someone is a fanatic it backfires, just like Muslims saying the Koran/Quran commands them to kill Americans, the white devils, the infidels. Muhammed tolerated Jews, Christians, and others alike, and the Quran does not say to kill them. It acknowleges the Holy Bible as scripture. Why not attack the Koran and the Satanic Verses that have been so conveniently censored? I feel God everywhere and I know His meaning, I know what He wrote or had written, and nothing you or anyone else could do or say would convince me otherwise. That’s why I am dropping this and if you want to attack me some more, fine, I know what I am writing is true and any spin you may put on it is fabricated by you to suit your own agenda. But if you want to keep this civil then I’m all for that too. Ian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Firstly, I have a Torah, Hebrew of course. And secondly, you completely fail to mention that ELOHIM is plural, plural masculine in a feminine context. So, it’s actually triple. AND, you also fail to mention that Hebrew was a language od double, quadruple meanings, puns and reversals. Do you even know Hebrew? Hav’ah "This is the dawning of the Seventh Day, the day God rests . . . and we awaken . . . " http://www.sstsystems.net/~havah/contents.html —–Original Message—– Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic That shows how educated you are [not]. The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew. You are saying that the name of God changes and since He is called God, Lord God, or Jehovah, that they are different gods. That is incorrect. The different renderings of the name are from translators using different language, like my biological FATHER is my Dad, Daddy, Pop, Old Man, etc but they are all the same person. In Hebrew, the names you say are different, are ALL either the Hewbrew Tetragrammaton YHWH (the personal name of God as dictated to Moses), Adonai, and Elohim. Adonai and Elohim are more repectful forms of the name of God because the Hebrews thought saying His full name was disrespectful, like you’d call your science teacher Mr. Nye instead of Bill. And the form Jehovah comes from the practice of whenever the Tetragrammaton was written, it was filled in with the vowels from Adonai, making it YaHoWaH, which, when Latinized, forms Jehovah. But they are all the same God. Period. Just like you call someone you know a "friend," by their name, say, "Edward", or by a nickname, like "Ed." You really ought to know what you are talking about next time you decide to make an erroneous statement, okay? Considering that the Bible is riddled with underlying subliminal messages that spread evil and violence, and are posed as being dictated by God (erroneously), then it should be re-written to show it in a plain light so that people can really decide what’s what. People just skip over "god’s" name all the time and think that it is the same entity being referenced each time. Even the Genesis shows 3 different entities: God, the Lord God, and the Lord. Every time Moses claims that he gets evil instruction, he attributes it to "Jehovah". Even Moses priests who follow after him commune with "Jehovah". Yet, the House of Isreal communes with the One [true] God. Definitely two different entities. So, I think that firstly, people have to learn to read the bible with awareness. Then, they can pick easily through the 3 messages that the bible contains on the surface: an evil message, a positive message, and the truth of it all. And, then of course, outside of all this, we have GOD. Hav’ah Should the Bible be X-Rated? Kept out of reach of children? Not only does it seem objectionable on sexual grounds but also on violence grounds. Just like TV today! How about Moses having all the captured soldiers and older women of the enemy murdered, and arranging for the mass rape of 32,000 captured virgins? For the younger women and children, Moses exhorted his soldiers to: "kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the [32,000] young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. …" Numbers 31:25-35. student

Response:

can I skip Sunday mass?

admin — Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

What is the churches position on trading Sunday mass for Saturday mass? Is it for a convenience for those who can’t make it on Sunday or can you do it if you just feel like sleeping in on Sunday?

Response:

[This followup was posted to alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic and a copy was sent to the cited author.] alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, let’s see if they are worth reading…. What is the churches position on trading Sunday mass for Saturday mass? Is it for a convenience for those who can’t make it on Sunday or can you do it if you just feel like sleeping in on Sunday?

Attending the vigil Mass on Saturday, or any Mass on Sunday, fulfills your obligation. I personally think it is preferable to go on Sunday, or at least after sundown on Saturday. (Saturday vigil masses often are held before sundown, especially during the warmer months) mr. zoom — ===zoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom Visit the Handicapped Encounter Christ webpage http://welcome.to/encounter-christ

Response:

Saturday vigil Mass is the same as Sunday Mass. The reason for this is ligurgically (based on Jewish time-keeping), the next day began around 6 pm, instead of midnight. So, yes, Saturday Mass (around 5:30 pm) does satisfy your Sunday obligation. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the churches position on trading Sunday mass for Saturday mass? Is it for a convenience for those who can’t make it on Sunday or can you do it if you just feel like sleeping in on Sunday?

Response:

The intent for the Saturday Vigil was for those who could not go to Sunday Mass. Unfortunately, it has become a habit or regular Mass for many.

Response:

Joe, Just ignore CB.

God doesn’t ignore me since I speak the Truth.Question: Do you try to justify all the murders your church has committed? Do you try to justify your church that has been found liable in the molestations of many young children? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He’s trolling again. According to the Church the Saturday ‘vigil’ Mass (the one in the evening) is the same as a Sunday Mass. This is because of the idea (from our Jewish heritage) that Sunday begins at sundown on ‘Saturday’. Thus the Saturday vigil Mass satisfies your Sunday obligation to attend Mass. You should make sure you attend either this Mass or one of the ones on Sunday. (i have a friend who works 3rd shift Saturday night who always goes to the Saturday vigil Mass…) Hope this helps, Rebecca