Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes  john w replied under copyright     JN 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. So where are these immortals?  Or are there none?  Hence no one has died believing in the Son? — Shawn Everyone who has believed on Christ before their death is now "an immortal" living in Heaven.

I’ve never understood these idiots, and I doubt I ever will. It shouldn’t take a rocket scientist to underrstand that no matter how seriously he takes it, his involuntary audience doesn’t. What  is it about christianity that turns people into in-your-face minddless morons? John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that He gave His Only Son, so that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish, but shall have eternal life." More silly words…from a silly book. Want to join us?

What a remarkably stupid question. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -No.

Response:

says… snip I know enough scientists who are creationist Christians to know that you don’t know what you are talking about.

What a load of absolute bullshit! Robyn Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster #1557

Response:

says…snip Your reply is beneath reply.  

Apparently not as it appears you replied. What an idiot. Robyn Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster #1557

Response:

(snip) Can we still be friends?

Sure.  Why not.       pan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -:-) jw

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes john w replied under copyright And any educated, intelligent person knows that your nick, "pan" is ancient Greek for Satan.  You fool no one. jw I’m not sure if you’re speaking in terms of language or symbolically, but here’s only a touch of the Pan myth. Pan was an ancient Arcadian pastoral god who protected herds, flocks, and beehives. He also guided hunters to their quarry. Pan "stands for the ‘devil’ or ‘upright man’ of the Arcadian fertility cult, which closely resembled the witch-cult of North-western Europe. "Upright" meaning "with erect penis".  This man, dressed in a goat-skin, was the chosen lover of the Maenads during their drunken orgies on the high mountains, and sooner or later paid for his privilege with death." (The Greek Myths, vol.1) Satanists claim that Pan is the Greek god of lust, later downgraded to a devil. (The Satanic Bible) Because the European Devil was modeled after Pan, and because the Greek god was associated with primal terror and unbridled lechery, he qualifies as a demon in the eyes of the Christian Church. I can see where you’d equate Pan with Satan, but there’s much more to this myth than that.  In addition, Satanists and the Christian Church see Pan as a mere devil/demon and not Satan. Since last time I heard anything, there were over 35,000 denominations or "sects" in America today, the information you get on what Christians think/thought on any given subject will change with the century and the sect. Since any intelligent Christian would easily/readily admit that our faith–Christianity–is European, even Eastern (for the few who are aware of that). As for saying "Satanists claim that Pan is the Greek god of lust," that would not be at all off Christianity’s view. Christianity would call Satan the god of lust, of debauchery, of molestations and pedophilia, of murder and incest.

Those sound like horrible *human* traits. The "Greek god who was associated with primal terror and unbridled lechery…" would be a good description of Satan and demons.

Early Christians didn’t think much of *any*  the Greco-Roman gods . Generally they viewed all of these gods as evil.   Christians even took the Greek word for deity (diamon) and used it to mean ‘evil spirit’ (in English: ‘demon’.)    pan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -And I didn’t say that there was "more" or "less" to Satan or Pan. I do not debate whether Satan is one of many of Pan’s nicknames, or whether Pan is one of Satan’s many nicknames. At the point where they cross paths, I put up my WARNING sign. jw

Response:

poured fuel on the fire with the following: [ snip weatherly's babble ] Science deals in observation. Logical argumentation and refutation is the domain of philosophy. The philosophical argument I directed you to shows that the Christian creation myth is a fallacy. If you or your creationist scientists want to have a go at philosophy and logical argumentation then post a sound refutation of my argument. Failing that, then be silent.   Regards,    Josef All Christian religion seems to have a kind of alliance with folly and in no respect to have any accord with wisdom.         — Erasmus

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes  john w replied under copyright poured fuel on the fire with the following:  john w replied In a message sent ’round the world, IKnowHimDoYou poured fuel on the fire with the following: … Before it is to late, cast your sin ON Him now…don’t try to work it off by yourself through a religion.  That would be foolishness of the highest order. Actually, creationist arguments hold that distinction. Actually, those who make such statements are the foolish. The Christian creation myth is a fallacy. LOL!! I know enough scientists who are creationist Christians to know that you don’t know what you are talking about.

So you say. What about these scientists, Liar John?: http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/3697_the_list_2_16_2003.asp The creation myth is just that, a myth. Scientists don’t prove it right or wrong, the evidence does and your side has no scientific evidence. Say John, one of your scientist friends wouldn’t happen to be the guy who was building an a-bomb in his garage, would it?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes  john w replied under copyright     JN 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. So where are these immortals?  Or are there none?  Hence no one has died believing in the Son? — Shawn Everyone who has believed on Christ before their death is now "an immortal" living in Heaven. John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that He gave His Only Son, so that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish, but shall have eternal life."

More silly words…from a silly book. Want to join us?

No. — Jez "The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious, of being out of one’s mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years." R.D. Laing

Response:

screamed this to the uncaring Gods. Nonsense.  We find  MAJOR teachings of Christ in the gospels, and they are all-inclusive.  What do you call the 10 Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount if not Jesus’ teachings on ethics?

Partner, I suggest you go pick up the bible.  Jesus had nothing to do with the 10 Commandments.  That story is in Exodus. Moron. However, since you are too feeble to figure these things out for yourself, I shall give you a few hints.  Christ taught:

That he came to destroy families.  Matthew 10:34-37. That you should mutilate yourself.  Matthew 18:8-9 That disobedient children should be killed.  Mark 7:9-10 That you should never get married.  Luke 20:35 That birth defects and injuries were a curse from god.  John 5:5-14 Only liars and demons would attack God in flesh. His behavior and motives are beyond reproach as He is God, and He is therefore Sovereign and ABOVE man’s understanding or judgements.

That’s what cult members said about Charles Manson, Jim Jones, David Koresh, et al… Ready for the Kool Aid? You are recycling old high school/college atheist/existentialist philosophy, and your teacher was Satan.

Actually, in my case, I was taught by Jesuits. — Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5 Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"

Response:

Believing On The Lord Jesus Christ

<sigh We really don’t care what you believe. If it makes you feel good to believe a dead carpenter is your personal savior, more power to you. But please, get it through that pointy little head of yours that not everyone believes it, and nothing you can say will change that.

Response:

his prior claims, & failed. Follow up set to trolls home group, ARCB. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: news.f.de.plusline.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell .syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!no t-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.talk.creationism,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian. roman-catholic,alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,alt.atheism X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 50 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.5.187.228 Xref: news.f.de.plusline.net alt.talk.creationism:148673 alt.religion.christian.baptist:365194 alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:577483 alt.religion.christian.biblestudy:180889 alt.atheism:1583737 x-no-archive: yes  john w replied under copyright jw And perhaps the most important ethical "pronouncements" attributed to Jesus were not new. According to Karen Armstrong (‘A History of God’), many of the ethical teachings attributed to Jesus fit quite well into the Jewish Pharisaic philosophy during that period.    i.e.  Emphasizing charity and loving-kindness towards one’s neighbors,  And the ‘Golden Rule’.  Armstrong states that the NT’s negative depiction of the Pharisees was "due to the distortions of first-century polemic". Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz And any educated, intelligent person knows that your nick, "pan" is ancient Greek for Satan.  You fool no one. jw You apparently aren’t educated. Maybe not even intelligent. The ancient Greeks didn’t have any such concept as Satan. The closest fit in their pantheon would probably have been their god of death. Hint: he wasn’t called Pan, and he had no hooves. Your reply is beneath reply.  You completely misconstrued what I said.

No they did not, you were called on it, & are trying to wiggle out of your public display of ignorance about your mythology, as well as the theology of others. You are replying to what you believe I meant, but you are wrong.

They are not, your claim was Pan equated to Satan, & until xians ramrodded their myth down everyone’s throat, that was & is a lie. But then, those are your trademarks according to your posting history. Talking abut leaping before looking. You should perhaps ask a qualifying question or two before you jump into the deep end of an empty pool head first.

Would that you would, our claim was that ancient [pre writing pre history] Greece held Pan to be evil & Satan. Satan had yet to make its debut, & Pan was a patron of shepherds among other things. Boy howdy among other things. IOW you shoot your big mouth off & got caught out in your ignorance again. jw

walksalone who is not surprised that jw knows nothing to speak of about other myths, after all, he has demonstrated no knowledge about his own. — "When the seventh day arrived, I sent forth and set free a dove. The dove went forth, but came back; There was no resting-place for it and she turned round. Then I sent forth and set free a swallow. The swallow went forth, but came back, There was no resting-place for it and she turned round. Then I sent forth and set free a raven. The raven went forth and, seeing that the waters had diminished, He eats, circles, caws, and turns not round." –Translation by E. A. Speiser, in Ancient Near Eastern Texts from Epic of Gilgamesh

Response:

And since there is more science in the Bible, (meteorology and astronomy for two)  I’ll go with the Bible’s version. jw

Mate there isn’t enough science in the Bible to fix a puncture Get real and try not to be stupid ALL your life!!!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes john w replied (snip) 2. Is there an ethical system? "Great ethical teachers" commonly develop full and coherent ethical systems which provide a comprehensive basis for teaching proper behavior and attitudes. Unfortunately, no such system is to be found. Instead we find a patchwork homilies and pronouncements, some of which are unclear and others of which are contradictory. And perhaps the most important ethical "pronouncements" attributed to Jesus were not new. According to Karen Armstrong (‘A History of God’), many of the ethical teachings attributed to Jesus fit quite well into the Jewish Pharisaic philosophy during that period.    i.e.  Emphasizing charity and loving-kindness towards one’s neighbors,  And the ‘Golden Rule’.   Armstrong states that the NT’s negative depiction of the Pharisees was "due to the distortions of first-century polemic". Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz And any educated, intelligent person knows that your nick, "pan" is ancient Greek for Satan.  You fool no one.

<Satan voice   YOU CAUGHT ME THIS TIME ‘JW’,  BUT NEXT TIME YOU WILL NOT BE SO LUCKY!  HA HA HA…  ;-D </end Satan voice Actually my *initials* are P.A.N.    You silly person.  ;-)    pan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -jw   pan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Believing On The Lord Jesus Christ Many people do not understand why the Bible talks about believing(trusting) ON the Lord Jesus Christ. Years ago, I did that . . . one day, though, he hollered at me, "Jesus Christ, goet off my friggin’ back, will ya?" So I did, and that’s that . . . got me a unicycle instead. -Tock So now you ride around in little circles like a clown?

Why do you ask, are you looking for company?

Response:

In a message sent ’round the world, IKnowHimDoYou poured fuel on the fire with the following: Believing On The Lord Jesus Christ Many people do not understand why the Bible talks about believing(trusting) ON the Lord Jesus Christ.

Amongst other things.  There are several reason for the use of the preposition ON:

[ snip some word games ] Before it is to late, cast your sin ON Him now…don’t try to work it off by yourself through a religion.  That would be foolishness of the highest order.

Actually, creationist arguments hold that distinction.   Regards,    Josef I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.         — Mahatma Gandhi

Response:

    JN 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So where are these immortals?  Or are there none?  Hence no one has died believing in the Son? — Shawn

Response:

poured fuel on the fire with the following:  john w replied In a message sent ’round the world, IKnowHimDoYou poured fuel on the fire with the following:

… Before it is to late, cast your sin ON Him now…don’t try to work it off by yourself through a religion.  That would be foolishness of the highest order. Actually, creationist arguments hold that distinction. Actually, those who make such statements are the foolish.

The Christian creation myth is a fallacy. http://tinyurl.com/qg1e  Who are you to question God?

You cannot demonstrate that this deity exists. If you don’t believe in creation, that only means that your mind is too small to believe in the God who is capable of creating all that is in 6 literal days.

If you believe this creation myth then your mind is too small for logical argumentation. And since there is more science in the Bible, (meteorology and astronomy for two)  I’ll go with the Bible’s version.

Your mind is also too small for understanding proper sentence structure.   Regards,    Josef For as it is the chief concern of wise men to retrench the evils of life by the reasonings of philosophy, it is the employment of fools to multiply them by the sentiments of superstition.         — Joseph Addison

Response:

Believing On The Lord Jesus Christ Many people do not understand why the Bible talks about believing(trusting) ON the Lord Jesus Christ.

Years ago, I did that . . . one day, though, he hollered at me, "Jesus Christ, goet off my friggin’ back, will ya?" So I did, and that’s that . . . got me a unicycle instead. -Tock

Response:

Believing On The Lord Jesus Christ Many people do not understand why the Bible talks about believing(trusting) ON the Lord Jesus Christ. Years ago, I did that . . . one day, though, he hollered at me, "Jesus Christ, goet off my friggin’ back, will ya?" So I did, and that’s that . . . got me a unicycle instead. -Tock

So now you ride around in little circles like a clown?

Response:

jw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -And perhaps the most important ethical "pronouncements" attributed to Jesus were not new. According to Karen Armstrong (‘A History of God’), many of the ethical teachings attributed to Jesus fit quite well into the Jewish Pharisaic philosophy during that period.    i.e.  Emphasizing charity and loving-kindness towards one’s neighbors,  And the ‘Golden Rule’.  Armstrong states that the NT’s negative depiction of the Pharisees was "due to the distortions of first-century polemic". Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz And any educated, intelligent person knows that your nick, "pan" is ancient Greek for Satan.  You fool no one. jw

You apparently aren’t educated. Maybe not even intelligent. The ancient Greeks didn’t have any such concept as Satan. The closest fit in their pantheon would probably have been their god of death. Hint: he wasn’t called Pan, and he had no hooves. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

jw 2. Is there an ethical system? "Great ethical teachers" commonly develop full and coherent ethical systems which provide a comprehensive basis for teaching proper behavior and attitudes. Unfortunately, no such system is to be found. Instead we find a patchwork homilies and pronouncements, some of which are unclear and others of which are contradictory. Nonsense.  We find  MAJOR teachings of Christ in the gospels, and they are all-inclusive.  What do you call the 10 Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount if not Jesus’ teachings on ethics?

Well, one point, here. The 10 commandments were laid down by Moses, supposedly on God’s instructions. That’s the OT. I’m not a Christian, I haven’t looked at a bible in years, and even I don’t make that mistake. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -However, since you are too feeble to figure these things out for yourself, I shall give you a few hints.  Christ taught: #1 turn the cheek #2 go the extra mile #3    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. DT 6:4-5   God is pre-eminent, and must be loved and HONORED above ALL else. #4 Do unto others as you would that they do unto you. (what many today call "The Golden Rule." #5 Jesus said, "I give you a NEW commandment. Love one another as I have loved you." He concluded #5 with, "if you keep these ( #3 and #5) you have fulfilled the law. 3. If he didn’t have a system, what about his main principle? He had a system, and His main principle was two-fold: #3    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. DT 6:4-5 #5 Jesus said, "I give you a NEW commandment. Love one another as I have loved you." 4. Shouldn’t we have faith in Jesus? 5. Wasn’t Jesus’ behavior exemplary? Unfortunately, no. His actual behavior does not live up to the idealized image often imagined of him. For example,……(visit the link) Only liars and demons would attack God in flesh. His behavior and motives are beyond reproach as He is God, and He is therefore Sovereign and ABOVE man’s understanding or judgements.

Ah, the usual fundy rubbish. Open skull, pull out brain, insert bible. Well, you’ve just quite effectively rendered those who might disagree with you as vile subhumans, and thus fair game for whatever you’d like to do to them. You’ve fallen a bit short of Christ’s supposed teachings here, methinks. 6. Aren’t Jesus’ teachings what we need to help us cope with problems today? In short: no. Liar.  Who has kept His teachings perfectly?  Until you can say you have kept His teachings PERFECTLY, you cannot complain.

Well, if the teachings of Jesus are the answer to all our problems, but only if they are kept perfectly, but no one can keep them perfectly, then… Do you see where this is going? Be gone!   This carp is not new. You are recycling old high school/college atheist/existentialist philosophy, and your teacher was Satan. jw

Ah demonize the opponent again, with calumnies of the sort that might have fallen from the lips of medieval Inquisitors. This is wonderful. It just says so much about you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Believing On The Lord Jesus Christ Many people do not understand why the Bible talks about believing(trusting) ON the Lord Jesus Christ.  There are several reason for the use of the preposition ON: 1. When Jesus was crucified he had two men on either side of Him.  Isaiah 53:6 says: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid ON Him the iniquity of us all." So where is that iniquity now? It is ON Him for the penitent. The man on the left of Jesus was the impentitent thief:  His sin was IN him and ON him. The man or the right of Jesus was the penitent thief: his sin was IN him but not ON him because his ON sin was placed ON the Lord. Luke 23:39-43 The Lord, in the middle had no sin IN Him or ON Him but all our sin was laid ON Him. So where do we place our trust(belief)?  We place it ON Him. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24 If you do not know the Lord Jesus Christ through faith(trust) you have not placed your sin ON Him and it is still IN you and ON you.  Before it is to late, cast your sin ON Him now…don’t try to work it off by yourself through a religion.  That would be foolishness of the highest order. On a related note: this is from an article found at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/2850/ChristEthics.html The matter of "Christian Ethics" is very important in the debate about the truth or validity of Christianity. Christians will often refer to the "high ethical standards" of Jesus in an effort to buttress their contention that they have the True Religion. Even nominal Christians and many non-Christians have considered Jesus to be one of history’s great "moral teachers." But are such claims true, and do they stand up under scrutiny? I intend to explore that issue and hope to shed some light on a matter not often discussed. 1. What did Jesus Teach? That isn’t such an easy question to actually answer, believe it or not. It isn’t entirely certain what exactly he taught. The earliest Christian writers, Paul included, have little or nothing to say about his ethical teachings, even when it would be to their obvious advantage to do so. Such seeming ignorance on the part of the early writers raises the legitimate question of whether or not Jesus really did teach what the later writers say. An obvious explanation of this discrepancy would be that the alleged teachings are later additions, but since Christians either ignore this problem or do not accept this solution and follow what is laid down in the Gospels, that is what further critiques will have to deal with. 2. Is there an ethical system? "Great ethical teachers" commonly develop full and coherent ethical systems which provide a comprehensive basis for teaching proper behavior and attitudes. Unfortunately, no such system is to be found. Instead we find a patchwork homilies and pronouncements, some of which are unclear and others of which are contradictory.

And perhaps the most important ethical "pronouncements" attributed to Jesus were not new. According to Karen Armstrong (‘A History of God’), many of the ethical teachings attributed to Jesus fit quite well into the Jewish Pharisaic philosophy during that period.    i.e.  Emphasizing charity and loving-kindness towards one’s neighbors,  And the ‘Golden Rule’.    Armstrong states that the NT’s negative depiction of the Pharisees was "due to the distortions of first-century polemic".    pan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -3. If he didn’t have a system, what about his main principle? 4. Shouldn’t we have faith in Jesus? 5. Wasn’t Jesus’ behavior exemplary? Unfortunately, no. His actual behavior does not live up to the idealized image often imagined of him. For example,……(visit the link) 6. Aren’t Jesus’ teachings what we need to help us cope with problems today? In short: no. To see why, visit the link for the complete article The complete article found here: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/2850/ChristEthics.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Believing On The Lord Jesus Christ Many people do not understand why the Bible talks about believing(trusting) ON the Lord Jesus Christ.  There are several reason for the use of the preposition ON: 1. When Jesus was crucified he had two men on either side of Him.  Isaiah 53:6 says: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid ON Him the iniquity of us all." So where is that iniquity now? It is ON Him for the penitent. The man on the left of Jesus was the impentitent thief:  His sin was IN him and ON him. The man or the right of Jesus was the penitent thief: his sin was IN him but not ON him because his ON sin was placed ON the Lord. Luke 23:39-43 The Lord, in the middle had no sin IN Him or ON Him but all our sin was laid ON Him. So where do we place our trust(belief)?  We place it ON Him. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24 If you do not know the Lord Jesus Christ through faith(trust) you have not placed your sin ON Him and it is still IN you and ON you.  Before it is to late, cast your sin ON Him now…don’t try to work it off by yourself through a religion.  That would be foolishness of the highest order.

Bullshit!!

Response:

Believing On The Lord Jesus Christ Many people do not understand why the Bible talks about believing(trusting) ON the Lord Jesus Christ.  There are several reason for the use of the preposition ON: 1. When Jesus was crucified he had two men on either side of Him.  Isaiah 53:6 says: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid ON Him the iniquity of us all." So where is that iniquity now? It is ON Him for the penitent. The man on the left of Jesus was the impentitent thief:  His sin was IN him and ON him. The man or the right of Jesus was the penitent thief: his sin was IN him but not ON him because his ON sin was placed ON the Lord. Luke 23:39-43 The Lord, in the middle had no sin IN Him or ON Him but all our sin was laid ON Him. So where do we place our trust(belief)?  We place it ON Him. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24 If you do not know the Lord Jesus Christ through faith(trust) you have not placed your sin ON Him and it is still IN you and ON you.  Before it is to late, cast your sin ON Him now…don’t try to work it off by yourself through a religion.  That would be foolishness of the highest order.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Believing On The Lord Jesus Christ Many people do not understand why the Bible talks about believing(trusting) ON the Lord Jesus Christ.  There are several reason for the use of the preposition ON: 1. When Jesus was crucified he had two men on either side of Him.  Isaiah 53:6 says: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid ON Him the iniquity of us all." So where is that iniquity now? It is ON Him for the penitent. The man on the left of Jesus was the impentitent thief:  His sin was IN him and ON him. The man or the right of Jesus was the penitent thief: his sin was IN him but not ON him because his ON sin was placed ON the Lord. Luke 23:39-43 The Lord, in the middle had no sin IN Him or ON Him but all our sin was laid ON Him. So where do we place our trust(belief)?  We place it ON Him. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24 If you do not know the Lord Jesus Christ through faith(trust) you have not placed your sin ON Him and it is still IN you and ON you.  Before it is to late, cast your sin ON Him now…don’t try to work it off by yourself through a religion.  That would be foolishness of the highest order.

On a related note: this is from an article found at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/2850/ChristEthics.html The matter of "Christian Ethics" is very important in the debate about the truth or validity of Christianity. Christians will often refer to the "high ethical standards" of Jesus in an effort to buttress their contention that they have the True Religion. Even nominal Christians and many non-Christians have considered Jesus to be one of history’s great "moral teachers." But are such claims true, and do they stand up under scrutiny? I intend to explore that issue and hope to shed some light on a matter not often discussed. 1. What did Jesus Teach? That isn’t such an easy question to actually answer, believe it or not. It isn’t entirely certain what exactly he taught. The earliest Christian writers, Paul included, have little or nothing to say about his ethical teachings, even when it would be to their obvious advantage to do so. Such seeming ignorance on the part of the early writers raises the legitimate question of whether or not Jesus really did teach what the later writers say. An obvious explanation of this discrepancy would be that the alleged teachings are later additions, but since Christians either ignore this problem or do not accept this solution and follow what is laid down in the Gospels, that is what further critiques will have to deal with. 2. Is there an ethical system? "Great ethical teachers" commonly develop full and coherent ethical systems which provide a comprehensive basis for teaching proper behavior and attitudes. Unfortunately, no such system is to be found. Instead we find a patchwork homilies and pronouncements, some of which are unclear and others of which are contradictory. 3. If he didn’t have a system, what about his main principle? 4. Shouldn’t we have faith in Jesus? 5. Wasn’t Jesus’ behavior exemplary? Unfortunately, no. His actual behavior does not live up to the idealized image often imagined of him. For example,……(visit the link) 6. Aren’t Jesus’ teachings what we need to help us cope with problems today? In short: no. To see why, visit the link for the complete article The complete article found here: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/2850/ChristEthics.html

Response:

Believing On The Lord Jesus Christ Many people do not understand why the Bible talks about believing(trusting) ON the Lord Jesus Christ.  There are several reason for the use of the preposition ON:

Really? Where in the original writing of the bible is the word "on"? Elmer Bataitis        "Hot dog! Smooch city here I come!" Planetech Services                              -Hobbes 585-442-2884   "Proudly wearing and displaying, as a badge of honor,         the straight jacket of conventional thought." – C. Cagle                      

Response:

Believing On The Lord Jesus Christ Many people do not understand why the Bible talks about believing(trusting) ON the Lord Jesus Christ.  There are several reason for the use of the preposition ON: Really? Where in the original writing of the bible is the word "on"?

Must be some KJV thing.  Damn, those fundie prots use verbs weirdly. I usually believe someone, or believe in something.  Never "on".

Response:

Funnily enough there is a decipherable message in the fact that two "thieves" were executed with Jesus who was himself executed as "King of The Jews" and therefore as – in Herod and Pilates eyes a pretender to the throne of Judea This lies in the fact that Crucifixion was NOT used for anything other than the crime of sedition aginst Rome The two "thieves" must in fact have been themselves executed for sedition and were therefore likely to have been zealots and not thieves.  Jesus with his banner is portrayed as the leader The two "zealots" executed with Jesus  gain credibility when it is realised that when Christianity aspired under Paul to become a religion approved by Rome it was necessary to expurgate embarrassing features, such as the condemning of Jesus by Pilate (modified into a hand washing ceremony) and his execution for sedition against Rome, a crime of which he was patently guilty. The Romans would have found an executed traitor against Rome, executed with two followers – as Jesus would have been seen – unacceptable as the Founder of a New Religion. Clearly the rememberance of two other persons executed with Jesus had already passed into oral tradition and they could not be easily removed from the story. So the two unknown zealots became "thieves" and the Jews became the "instigators" of Jesuses execution (quite impossible) When one looks for the incidents that riled the Roman Garrison into prosecuting Jesus, one comes of with two obvious ones – the Palm Sunday entry into Jerusalem (seen as a political demonstration of an intention to rally the people) and the attack on the Temple Mount – later turned into a minor incident in which a few tables belonging to the money lenders were overturned. .

Response:

Question:

I have witnessed to the fact that Christ can possess anyone against their will, make them do whatever he wants, say whatever he wants, but that’s not what he wants.  He wants them to want him to, that’s all the difference.  It’s the difference between having intercourse with someone who wants you to and someone who doesn’t.

Who told you such things? "Christ can possess anyone against their will…" It’s not in scripture. It’s merely your extrapolation, i.e. imagination. You seem to be blind to the obvious (though fret not, you’re not the only one). Free will is a human concept fabricated to justify the human condition. It has no basis in fact. A casual observation betrays the folly of the err. Every act committed or ommitted by every human being on earth is consequential to a prior act, be it a thought, an emotion or a physical expression. Thus the word "free" is at best a misguided distortion and at worst an outright lie, in regard to the labeling of that act. Freedom implies the absence of restraints. Conditioning is a restraint. All are conditioned. None are free. A devout Muslim is no more "free" to "want" Christ than you are "free" to "want" Mohammed. Do you want Mohammed? (in the place of Christ)? No. You do not. You have been conditioned to cling to one and discard the other. Western scripture taken literally is naught but a fairy tale. A myth. The meaning of which is hidden behind a veil (to this day). Being esoteric. The extent of actual freedom in regard to the human condition is so minimal as to be impreceptable. You are not even free to discontinue your "witnessing" to others. You must do it. If, salvation itself (via the acceptance of Christ), according to your interpretation of the gospel, is an act of free will, why does St. Paul suggest it is an act of grace (that no man should boast)? And if, it is an act of grace, than how can you account yourself as having been "free" to choose? With all due respect I say, you do err. And you do so greatly. For you imagine yourself to be in possession of a truth that you possess not. Free will is a human concept fabricated to justify the human condition. It has no basis in fact. A casual observation betrays the folly of the err. Herc

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes  john_w replied under copyright Path: news.netfront.net!skynet.be!ngpeer.news.aol.com!feed1.newsreader.com!newsr eader.com!zeus.visi.com!priapus.visi.com!orange.octanews.net!news-out.visi. com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.PO STED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.christnet.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.bapti st,alt.religion.christian.catholic,alt.religion.christian.presbyterian,alt. religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.religion.scientology,alt.religion.wat chtower.judicial Reply-To: God in Heaven X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.646 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 83 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.5.187.153 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1083504315 67.5.187.153 (Sun, 02 May 2004 08:25:15 CDT) Xref: news.netfront.net alt.christnet.religion:4215 alt.religion.christian:529435 alt.religion.christian.baptist:316695 alt.religion.christian.catholic:2416 alt.religion.christian.presbyterian:44953 alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:460171 alt.religion.scientology:305410 alt.religion.watchtower.judicial:77 x-no-archive: yes  john_w replied Humans are all composed of a physical substance. Atoms, and molecules, nothing more. Our brain is composed of molecules interacting chemically every second of every day. These interactions, and reactions are unavoidably consistant, PREDICATABLE and PREDETERMINED. Bunk. I ran into this atheist pre determinism during college.  Nothing could be further from the truth. Every time you decide between McDonald’s and Burger King, you exercise free will. Not according to your mythology, after all, your gods now everything that will happen before it happens. Supposedly. Now, if that is true, free will can not exist. As a non-Christian, you are HARDLY qualified to discuss theology/doctrine.  And at any rate, you mis-interpret.  God doesn’t rule every tiny aspect of our lives; nor does He choose to. He DOES rule our lives morally, but He does NOT get into the intricacies of which toothbrush we buy. Too many un-educated or ill-educated like to think the very worst of we Christian morons.  Fact is, we’ve built more hospitals than non-Christians, more universities, more secondary schools.  We have missionaries all over the world, including a whole mission full who died in the first bombing of Baghdad. Exactly what have YOU contributed?

Unable to build, pagans take over the hospitals to murder children by abortion, take over universities to spread the gospel of situational ethics, relative morality, incite class warfare, and hatred of God, andn lead countries that victemize its people like Saddam. Bad logic, even the Oracle in Matrix knew what Neo would choose, because he had already made the choice.  The purpose of the experience was to understand the choice already freely made. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz You have not yet proven that there is no free will.

Stand at the edge of a cliff, and make a decision, jump or not.  You decide. < snipped more atheist gibberish ! )

– May God Bless You Michael "Those that give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." Benjamin Franklin

Response:

Western scripture taken literally is naught but a fairy tale. A myth.

Exactly what is "Western Scripture"?

Response:

x-no-archive: yes  john_w replied under copyright – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: news.netfront.net!skynet.be!ngpeer.news.aol.com!feed1.newsreader.com!newsr eader.com!zeus.visi.com!priapus.visi.com!orange.octanews.net!news-out.visi. com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.PO STED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.christnet.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.bapti st,alt.religion.christian.catholic,alt.religion.christian.presbyterian,alt. religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.religion.scientology,alt.religion.wat chtower.judicial Reply-To: God in Heaven X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.646 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 83 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.5.187.153 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1083504315 67.5.187.153 (Sun, 02 May 2004 08:25:15 CDT) Xref: news.netfront.net alt.christnet.religion:4215 alt.religion.christian:529435 alt.religion.christian.baptist:316695 alt.religion.christian.catholic:2416 alt.religion.christian.presbyterian:44953 alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:460171 alt.religion.scientology:305410 alt.religion.watchtower.judicial:77 x-no-archive: yes  john_w replied Humans are all composed of a physical substance. Atoms, and molecules, nothing more. Our brain is composed of molecules interacting chemically every second of every day. These interactions, and reactions are unavoidably consistant, PREDICATABLE and PREDETERMINED. Bunk. I ran into this atheist pre determinism during college.  Nothing could be further from the truth. Every time you decide between McDonald’s and Burger King, you exercise free will. Not according to your mythology, after all, your gods now everything that will happen before it happens. Supposedly. Now, if that is true, free will can not exist.

As a non-Christian, you are HARDLY qualified to discuss theology/doctrine.  And at any rate, you mis-interpret.  God doesn’t rule every tiny aspect of our lives; nor does He choose to. He DOES rule our lives morally, but He does NOT get into the intricacies of which toothbrush we buy. Too many un-educated or ill-educated like to think the very worst of we Christian morons.  Fact is, we’ve built more hospitals than non-Christians, more universities, more secondary schools.  We have missionaries all over the world, including a whole mission full who died in the first bombing of Baghdad. Exactly what have YOU contributed? Bad logic, even the Oracle in Matrix knew what Neo would choose, because he had already made the choice.  The purpose of the experience was to understand the choice already freely made.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz You have not yet proven that there is no free will. < snipped more atheist gibberish ! )

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Every time you decide between McDonald’s and Burger King, you exercise free will. It seems that you have a peculiar definition of  "free" as in "free will". It would be more accurate to say that you simply have a choice.  In fact, the way that you abuse the qualifier in "free" is to remove any and all meaning of the word. "Free" when modifying "will" implies that the will has absolutely no influence placed on it.  If that were the case, then the will would always be undeterministic and every choice would appear random and without cause. You have billions of dollars out proving you wrong every day.  If the will was truly free, then McDonalds and BK would be wasting all of their marketing dollars since a free will would be impervious to manipulation. If the will was free, it may never choose McDonalds or BK or it would choose one or the other when you aren’t even hungry since even the motivation to make a choice would not effect the will. But there are ads, the location matters, the reputation matters, the quality (using the word loosely here) and taste have an influence.  The screaming children that demand going to McPlayLand influence you.  The coupon in your pocket, the 99 cent ad painted on the window, even your own cravings influence what you do.  Maybe that heart-attack last month turns you away from choosing either.  Force of habit, the bad service, the hoodlums loitering in the dark parking lot, your stock portfolio that favors one over the other, the agreement made with your softtball team to meet there after the game, all influence which choice you make.  Where is the freedom when so many influences are pulling their own direction? When you go to the grocery store and pick up the AIM toothpaste instead of the Crest, you exercise free will. No, you are exercising a free market choice.  Anything else and you are then claiming that those under oppresive Communist regimes either have the State’s brand of toothpaste or nothing at all have no "free will" because the will has no means of expression.  What about people hundreds of years before mass produced toothpaste?  Did they not have "free will" until the plethora of toothpaste brands were marketed?   They had no knowledge of the toothpaste varieties and such were unable to make a choice because they didn’t know that one even existed.  The same argument can be made for those who have not heard the gospel message.  If "free will" only exists in a venue where a clear choice can be made, and the ability to choose is not even known, does that mean they either have no "free will", or does that grant them an automatic choice made for them that always gives them the favored result? Those within the American Religion abuse the word "free" every time they open the doors to their seeker-sensitive halls of pagantry.  If the will was free, why waste any time at all attempting to persuade?  Why cater to the lowest denominator of ambivalent sinner by bringing strange fire to every so-called worship service if everything that you do has absolutely no effect on the lost?  Why witness if the will is free, since even the limited knowledge , the emotional experience the ever shifting mood of the stage lighting, banging tamborines and the occasional belly-dancer shakin’ it for the LORD would have no effect on the truly free will. Furthermore, if the will was truly free, then nothing would have any effect on the will and when the sinner stands before a Holy God he can use as his defence "LORD, you gave me this will.  It is totally free and no one or nothing can control it.  Even You LORD, are completely incapable of influencing this will even though you created it.  You LORD, the Creator of everything, and nothing exists without your permission stand powerless before this will you have created.  If the Alpha and Omega, the One who does all that He pleases cannot direct this will, how can you possibly expect a humble and simple man/woman like me to manipulate it into choosing You? This will acts randomly, one moment it chooses You, and the next moment it curses You, and between those times it doesn’t even recognize You.  How can you possibly hold me accountable for the actions made by this will?" This concept of Free Will needs to be restored to its location within Pandora’s Box.

That was an interesting read….and appreciated. Joe

Response:

I have witnessed to the fact that Christ can possess anyone against their will, make them do whatever he wants, say whatever he wants, but that’s not what he wants.  He wants them to want him to, that’s all the difference.  It’s the difference between having intercourse with someone who wants you to and someone who doesn’t.

Response:

I have witnessed to the fact that Christ can possess anyone against their will, make them do whatever he wants, say whatever he wants, but that’s not what he wants.  He wants them to want him to, that’s all the difference.  It’s the difference between having intercourse with someone who wants you to and someone who doesn’t.

Great analogy Joe

Response:

I have witnessed to the fact that Christ can possess anyone against their will, make them do whatever he wants, say whatever he wants, but that’s not what he wants.  He wants them to want him to, that’s all the difference.  It’s the difference between having intercourse with someone who wants you to and someone who doesn’t.

Don’t know about the analogy; however, Saul’s course was certainly changed by direct intervention. — May God Bless You Michael "Those that give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." Benjamin Franklin

Response:

Every time you decide between McDonald’s and Burger King, you exercise free will.

It seems that you have a peculiar definition of  "free" as in "free will". It would be more accurate to say that you simply have a choice.  In fact, the way that you abuse the qualifier in "free" is to remove any and all meaning of the word. "Free" when modifying "will" implies that the will has absolutely no influence placed on it.  If that were the case, then the will would always be undeterministic and every choice would appear random and without cause. You have billions of dollars out proving you wrong every day.  If the will was truly free, then McDonalds and BK would be wasting all of their marketing dollars since a free will would be impervious to manipulation.  If the will was free, it may never choose McDonalds or BK or it would choose one or the other when you aren’t even hungry since even the motivation to make a choice would not effect the will. But there are ads, the location matters, the reputation matters, the quality (using the word loosely here) and taste have an influence.  The screaming children that demand going to McPlayLand influence you.  The coupon in your pocket, the 99 cent ad painted on the window, even your own cravings influence what you do.  Maybe that heart-attack last month turns you away from choosing either.  Force of habit, the bad service, the hoodlums loitering in the dark parking lot, your stock portfolio that favors one over the other, the agreement made with your softtball team to meet there after the game, all influence which choice you make.  Where is the freedom when so many influences are pulling their own direction? When you go to the grocery store and pick up the AIM toothpaste instead of the Crest, you exercise free will.

No, you are exercising a free market choice.  Anything else and you are then claiming that those under oppresive Communist regimes either have the State’s brand of toothpaste or nothing at all have no "free will" because the will has no means of expression.  What about people hundreds of years before mass produced toothpaste?  Did they not have "free will" until the plethora of toothpaste brands were marketed?   They had no knowledge of the toothpaste varieties and such were unable to make a choice because they didn’t know that one even existed.  The same argument can be made for those who have not heard the gospel message.  If "free will" only exists in a venue where a clear choice can be made, and the ability to choose is not even known, does that mean they either have no "free will", or does that grant them an automatic choice made for them that always gives them the favored result? Those within the American Religion abuse the word "free" every time they open the doors to their seeker-sensitive halls of pagantry.  If the will was free, why waste any time at all attempting to persuade?  Why cater to the lowest denominator of ambivalent sinner by bringing strange fire to every so-called worship service if everything that you do has absolutely no effect on the lost?  Why witness if the will is free, since even the limited knowledge , the emotional experience the ever shifting mood of the stage lighting, banging tamborines and the occasional belly-dancer shakin’ it for the LORD would have no effect on the truly free will. Furthermore, if the will was truly free, then nothing would have any effect on the will and when the sinner stands before a Holy God he can use as his defence "LORD, you gave me this will.  It is totally free and no one or nothing can control it.  Even You LORD, are completely incapable of influencing this will even though you created it.  You LORD, the Creator of everything, and nothing exists without your permission stand powerless before this will you have created.  If the Alpha and Omega, the One who does all that He pleases cannot direct this will, how can you possibly expect a humble and simple man/woman like me to manipulate it into choosing You? This will acts randomly, one moment it chooses You, and the next moment it curses You, and between those times it doesn’t even recognize You.  How can you possibly hold me accountable for the actions made by this will?" This concept of Free Will needs to be restored to its location within Pandora’s Box.

Response:

Path:

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alt.christnet.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptis t,alt.religion.christian.catholic,alt.religion.christian.presbyterian,alt.r eligion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.religion.scientology,alt.religion.watc htower.judicial Reply-To: God in Heaven X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.646 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 83 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.5.187.153 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1083504315 67.5.187.153 (Sun, 02 May 2004 08:25:15 CDT) Xref: news.netfront.net alt.christnet.religion:4215

alt.religion.christian:529435 alt.religion.christian.baptist:316695 alt.religion.christian.catholic:2416 alt.religion.christian.presbyterian:44953 alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:460171 alt.religion.scientology:305410 alt.religion.watchtower.judicial:77 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes  john_w replied Humans are all composed of a physical substance. Atoms, and molecules, nothing more. Our brain is composed of molecules interacting chemically every second of every day. These interactions, and reactions are unavoidably consistant, PREDICATABLE and PREDETERMINED. Bunk. I ran into this atheist pre determinism during college.  Nothing could be further from the truth. Every time you decide between McDonald’s and Burger King, you exercise free will. Not according to your mythology, after all, your gods now everything that will happen before it happens. Supposedly. Now, if that is true, free will can not exist.

Bad logic, even the Oracle in Matrix knew what Neo would choose, because he had already made the choice.  The purpose of the experience was to understand the choice already freely made. If it is not true, limited free will can exist. Care to flap your lips & hover across Puget Sound. No, why not, don’t you have faith in your gods, or did they ordain that such a thing you would not be able to do. You certainly flap them enough for a ground cushion effect.

Tee hee hee, sounds like satan’s temptation to the Lord at the temple. When you go to the grocery store and you pick up the AIM toothpaste, instead of the Crest, you exercise free will. Not if your gods exist. They knew you would pick that toothpaste before either you or that toothpaste came into existence. So I take it then that you are finally admitting your gods do not exist.

Not really proof of that, one can choose Crest but it is stocked out. When you are trying to decide whether to cook the steak or the Salmon What’s to decide, your god already knows, of course, you are to ignorant to follow your claims out to their logical conclusion, but that is not  the readers fault. Simply another one of your short comings.

Sounds like you have more than a few shortcomnings of your own. filet for dinner, and you decide on the Porterhouse, you are exercising free will. When it comes time to buy that new car, and you’re deciding between an SUV and a mini-van, and you decide on the SUV, you are exercising free will. See above, you are not worth the energy required for this message anyway, but your audience is.

Tee hee hee, ditto. The choice of the mini-van or the SUV could not have been "programmed In" since MANY of us pre-existed both. Unless your gods are not as claimed, those choices were programmed right in to start with.

Says who? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  jw  We as humans, as all other life forms, really have no free will. Free will is an illusion. You are an illusion, and listening to those silly voices in your head is part of your mistake. Well, you certainly act the chimera.  All our actions, and emotions, and thoughts are predtermined. We as humans are a prisoner, so to speak, of our physical being. There is no escape, to try to escape is an illusion, for it is also predicaable and predetermined. Ridiculous.  Don’t believe everything your high-school atheist philosophy teacher told you. I got into this with my college philosophy prof ( a required class or I would not have been there to begin  with), and when I made him look like the idiot you are looking like right now, he tried to flunk me. You did what? Care to provide a name? & if he tried to flunk you, you would have been flunked for gross stupidity. Another one of your insinuations, that you were in collage, that you took philosophy which is not normally a required course [depends on your major & minors] & had the ability to pass it without outside interference. & you wonder why you are held in contempt by so many.

the contempt appears to be quite limited.        You can dismiss this argument,which by the way is not complete, and is not original, but that will not make it any less important. Think about it, before dismissing. I’ve been thinking about it for 40 years. My opinion hasn’t changed. It can’t, you have to have the ability to think in order to change an opinion.

Tee hee hee, sounds like a Christophobic ad hominem. I first ran into this bunk in 9th grade. & you have been running around it ever since.

Sounds more like he is correctly running from it. That seem to be where you got hung up; in the emotional/spiritual immaturity of 9th grade philosophy class. So, you made it as far as the 9thngrade then? Amazing, who would have thought that after watching you & reading your posts.

There are bets that you didn’t make it that far. Even when I know I need to go to bed at 9 PM for work the next day, but I stay up til 11:30 to watch the late new ANYWAY, I am exercising free will. You are but acting out the part your gods decreed for you from the beginning of time. Besides, according to you, at last claimed public whine, you can’t get work.

Where? Even when I decide to only date blondes who wear horn rimmed glasses, I am exercising free will. No, you are letting the most intelligent part of you follow the script that was laid out by your gods. It sucks to be a slave like you.

Tee hee hee, beats being a pagan slave of the antiChrist. — May God Bless You Michael "Those that give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." Benjamin Franklin

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When it comes time to buy that new car, and you’re deciding between an SUV and a mini-van, and you decide on the SUV, you are exercising free will. The choice of the mini-van or the SUV could not have been "programmed In" since MANY of us pre-existed both. But if you suppose an Omniscient Being that knows infallibly the "choice" you will make, and there is zero chance that you could make any other choice (since the Omniscient Being exists outside of our time and sees every "choice" humans will make), then do you really choose to do that particular action, or is it woven into the fabric of the universe by the Will and Design of the Omniscient Being? You seem to "choose" between the mini-van or the SUV in this space/time continuum, but from the point of view of the Omniscient Being, you already made the "choice" and drove around in it for a set number of years before you "chose" to get a new car. God saw every act I have done and will do before the foundation of the universe.  As the universe unfolds according to the will and plan of God, the very act of my sitting here typing in this post was already placed into the fabric of space/time.  While from my persepctive I can say I "chose" to sit here and type this, and I "chose" to turn my computer on rather than watch TV this morning, from God’s perspective this was all that not only would happen, but could happen.  I couldn’t have "surprised" God by watching TV rather than reading USENET.  Ergo, what looks like a totally free choice to me was in fact a pre-determined act that God saw in His knowledge before this universe was created. There is an interesting new theory that the actual underlying reality of the universe is not matter or energy, but information, and the 3D universe we see is a sort of "rendering" of this plane of information.  Could this information-plane be God’s knowledge, and we are simply a sort of "hologram" of God’s knowledge playing out in what we call space/time? Interesting….

Please Daniel, do we really need this? Behold my hands and feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Jesus-Luke 24:39 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption, etc. I Cor. 15:49-50 You know that there are many bible verses that refer to flesh, blood, bones.  Then too, maybe you are just trying to give John W. a hard time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dan — Daniel S. Vieira raamthodol **at** earthlink **dot** net "We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force."                                                – Ayn Rand "Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he then be trusted with the government of others?" — Thomas Jefferson Nothing demanded at the point of a gun is voluntary, even      if that gun is cleverly concealed within the law.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes  john_w replied Humans are all composed of a physical substance. Atoms, and molecules, nothing more. Our brain is composed of molecules interacting chemically every second of every day. These interactions, and reactions are unavoidably consistant, PREDICATABLE and PREDETERMINED. Bunk. I ran into this atheist pre determinism during college.  Nothing could be further from the truth. Every time you decide between McDonald’s and Burger King, you exercise free will.

Not true. free will is a nother phrase for motivation. Nobody or no living thing can act on a lesser motive. We don’t choose our motives. When you go to the grocery store and you pick up the AIM toothpaste, instead of the Crest, you exercise free will.

No you don’t you act on your most prevailing motive, it is the end result of knowledge, influence, conditioning and every other factor that is affecting you at the time including whether you saw the commercial or not.  The will is not free from influence. When you are trying to decide whether to cook the steak or the Salmon filet for dinner, and you decide on the Porterhouse, you are exercising free will.

Wrong, you are motivated by desire for Porterhouse. Its a motivation. When it comes time to buy that new car, and you’re deciding between an SUV and a mini-van, and you decide on the SUV, you are exercising free will.

Here’s a fundamental question, if the will is *free* why would anyone knowingly choose the wrong action? The choice of the mini-van or the SUV could not have been "programmed In" since MANY of us pre-existed both.

The influences leading to your decision are in fact programmed in quite fundamentally and completely. This is why there is confession, because you are not free to make the correct decisions every time.  All our actions, and emotions, and thoughts are predtermined. We as humans are a prisoner, so to speak, of our physical being. There is no escape, to try to escape is an illusion, for it is also predicaable and predetermined. Ridiculous.  Don’t believe everything your high-school atheist philosophy teacher told you. I got into this with my college philosophy prof ( a required class or I would not have been there to

Too bad you had to take critical thinking skills in school, too bad you flunked. Joe

Response:

When it comes time to buy that new car, and you’re deciding between an SUV and a mini-van, and you decide on the SUV, you are exercising free will. The choice of the mini-van or the SUV could not have been "programmed In" since MANY of us pre-existed both. But if you suppose an Omniscient Being that knows infallibly the "choice" you will make, and there is zero chance that you could make any other choice (since the Omniscient Being exists outside of our time and sees every "choice" humans will make),

God seeing the choice does not eliminate that there is a free choice.  In Matrix. the ‘Oracle" knew what choice "Neo’ would make because he already made the choice, the purpose of the experience was for him to discover why he made the choice.  There is both free will and predestination. The common example is a ship headed for New York, people on the ship by free will can marry, eat, drink, and raise children, but they can not change the predestined  docking of the ship in New York. then do you really choose to do that – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – particular action, or is it woven into the fabric of the universe by the Will and Design of the Omniscient Being? You seem to "choose" between the mini-van or the SUV in this space/time continuum, but from the point of view of the Omniscient Being, you already made the "choice" and drove around in it for a set number of years before you "chose" to get a new car. God saw every act I have done and will do before the foundation of the universe.  As the universe unfolds according to the will and plan of God, the very act of my sitting here typing in this post was already placed into the fabric of space/time.  While from my persepctive I can say I "chose" to sit here and type this, and I "chose" to turn my computer on rather than watch TV this morning, from God’s perspective this was all that not only would happen, but could happen.  I couldn’t have "surprised" God by watching TV rather than reading USENET.  Ergo, what looks like a totally free choice to me was in fact a pre-determined act that God saw in His knowledge before this universe was created. There is an interesting new theory that the actual underlying reality of the universe is not matter or energy, but information, and the 3D universe we see is a sort of "rendering" of this plane of information.  Could this information-plane be God’s knowledge, and we are simply a sort of "hologram" of God’s knowledge playing out in what we call space/time? Interesting….

Not my favorite of theories, but not able to say that it is wrong, and it certainly is an interesting one, for there is only One living. — May God Bless You Michael "Those that give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." Benjamin Franklin

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… Humans are all composed of a physical substance. Atoms, and molecules, nothing more. Are you sure? Our brain is composed of molecules interacting chemically every second of every day. These interactions, and reactions are unavoidably consistant, PREDICATABLE and PREDETERMINED. We as humans, as all other life forms, You mean that there is no reason to get out of bed? really have no free will. Free will is an illusion. Perhaps it is an illusion that it is an illusion? All our actions, and emotions, and thoughts are predtermined. We as humans are a prisoner, so to speak, of our physical being. Of course, but that can be overcome. There is no escape, to try to escape is an illusion, for it is also predicaable and predetermined. Hmmmm, Jesus seemed to accomplish the feat, quite nicely.        You can dismiss this argument,which by the way is not complete, and is not original, but that will not make it any less important. Think about it, before dismissing.        -Dennis What was the argument? — May God Bless You Michael "Those that give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." Benjamin Franklin "Know the truth, and the truth will set you free" The truth is not found in religion, by the way.

I would agree, but it can be found in Christianity. — May God Bless You Michael "Those that give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." Benjamin Franklin

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is an interesting new theory that the actual underlying reality of the universe is not matter or energy, but information, and the 3D universe we see is a sort of "rendering" of this plane of information.  Could this information-plane be God’s knowledge, and we are simply a sort of "hologram" of God’s knowledge playing out in what we call space/time? Interesting…. Please Daniel, do we really need this? Behold my hands and feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Jesus-Luke 24:39 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption, etc. I Cor. 15:49-50 You know that there are many bible verses that refer to flesh, blood, bones.  Then too, maybe you are just trying to give John W. a hard time. I don’t get your point at all.

Chances are, I misunderstood yours. I’m apt to be suspicious of extra-biblical new theories about God, and I went over the top about flesh and blood vs "holograms."  How does this new theory help our understanding of our relationship to God, man and the universe?  We have so many philosophies, theories, beliefs, world views, pov, etc. thrown our way as it is. Do we need another unprovable theory with which to grapple? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dan — Daniel S. Vieira raamthodol **at** earthlink **dot** net "We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force."                                                – Ayn Rand "Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he then be trusted with the government of others?" — Thomas Jefferson Nothing demanded at the point of a gun is voluntary, even      if that gun is cleverly concealed within the law.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: news.netfront.net!skynet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news2.euro.net!border1.nntp .ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.o ctanews.net!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.christnet.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptis t,alt.religion.christian.catholic,alt.religion.christian.presbyterian,alt.r eligion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.religion.scientology,alt.religion.watc htower.judicial Reply-To: God in Heaven X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.646 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 92 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.5.187.153 Xref: news.netfront.net alt.christnet.religion:4217 alt.religion.christian:529440 alt.religion.christian.baptist:316701 alt.religion.christian.catholic:2419 alt.religion.christian.presbyterian:44955 alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:460176 alt.religion.scientology:305416 alt.religion.watchtower.judicial:79 x-no-archive: yes  john_w replied says… Humans are all composed of a physical substance. Atoms, and molecules, nothing more. Are you sure? Our brain is composed of molecules interacting chemically every second of every day. These interactions, and reactions are unavoidably consistant, PREDICATABLE and PREDETERMINED. We as humans, as all other life forms, You mean that there is no reason to get out of bed? really have no free will. Free will is an illusion. Perhaps it is an illusion that it is an illusion? All our actions, and emotions, and thoughts are predtermined. We as humans are a prisoner, so to speak, of our physical being. Of course, but that can be overcome. There is no escape, to try to escape is an illusion, for it is also predicaable and predetermined. Hmmmm, Jesus seemed to accomplish the feat, quite nicely.        You can dismiss this argument,which by the way is not complete, and is not original, but that will not make it any less important. Think about it, before dismissing.        -Dennis What was the argument? — May God Bless You Michael "Those that give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." Benjamin Franklin "Know the truth, and the truth will set you free" The truth is not found in religion, by the way. Nonsense!  There is MUCH truth in scripture. Christianity DOES work for all who try it and take it seriously. And the ONLY way you can say there’s no truth in the Bible is to have not read  it.

The truth that is there is not the kind to make one proud of being a member of the myths involved if they have a strong sense of ethics or empathy, There is science in the Bible, it’s right on about human nature

Not really, but there is no need of science in the bible. Now, if you want to learn how to control others, it is a good read if you can find people that ignorant. & thy do exist, Jonestown, Waco, Heavensgate are some rather obvious examples. (psalms/proverbs), and there’s accurate history in the Bible. In fact, MUCH of the Bible is fulfilled prophesy (history).

None of it is, & if you were the seminary trained person you claim to be, you would know that no prophesy came to pass after the prophesy. But that would require a trait you appear to lack, honesty. The prophesies about Christ alone are simply amazing.

Indeed, none there, many claimed, want a list? You’d come off MUCH smarter if you’d THINK for yourself, rather than quoting the illiterate, unread, un smart.

You might try following your own advice, for you do not think for yourself in all things. Your posting history shows that. If you can’t quote it, you can’t explain it. Bit like that messiah concept you can’t discuss accurately. MANY Christians I know are WELL-educated (myself), professionals (judges, doctors, lawyers, translators).

Here goes the appeals to authority. What is this we child, is your name on the corner stone? What does it mater anyway, can’t xians do something decent without waiting around for the photographers, the real ones, not those like you. As to your education, it fails to show up for any period of time. You may have been to collage, but the education did not take. We’ve built hospitals all over the world

Again, what is this we child. St Jude’s (free children’s hospital), Methodist hospitals, Baptist Hospitals, Presbyterian hospitals, Lutheran hospitals.

So, you were on the construction crew then? as well as institutions of higher learning (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford).

All before your time, not the first one that does not need income from outside sources to keep it going. Even the Shriner’s are feeling the budget bite & closing kids hospitals. Now that is a shame. So get off the we kick boy, you were not there, you are not part of the organization, & they have nothing to do with the average xian, or like you the sub-xian. jw

the dimwit that thinks mentioning the works of others justify’s his stupidity? Peers so. Dennis

walksalone who doubts anything original will come from jw, nothing there to generate it according to his posts.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is an interesting new theory that the actual underlying reality of the universe is not matter or energy, but information, and the 3D universe we see is a sort of "rendering" of this plane of information.  Could this information-plane be God’s knowledge, and we are simply a sort of "hologram" of God’s knowledge playing out in what we call space/time? Interesting…. Please Daniel, do we really need this? Behold my hands and feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Jesus-Luke 24:39 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption, etc. I Cor. 15:49-50 You know that there are many bible verses that refer to flesh, blood, bones.  Then too, maybe you are just trying to give John W. a hard time.

I don’t get your point at all. Dan — Daniel S. Vieira raamthodol **at** earthlink **dot** net "We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force."                                                – Ayn Rand "Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he then be trusted with the government of others?" — Thomas Jefferson Nothing demanded at the point of a gun is voluntary, even      if that gun is cleverly concealed within the law.

Response:

When it comes time to buy that new car, and you’re deciding between an SUV and a mini-van, and you decide on the SUV, you are exercising free will. The choice of the mini-van or the SUV could not have been "programmed In" since MANY of us pre-existed both.

But if you suppose an Omniscient Being that knows infallibly the "choice" you will make, and there is zero chance that you could make any other choice (since the Omniscient Being exists outside of our time and sees every "choice" humans will make), then do you really choose to do that particular action, or is it woven into the fabric of the universe by the Will and Design of the Omniscient Being? You seem to "choose" between the mini-van or the SUV in this space/time continuum, but from the point of view of the Omniscient Being, you already made the "choice" and drove around in it for a set number of years before you "chose" to get a new car. God saw every act I have done and will do before the foundation of the universe.  As the universe unfolds according to the will and plan of God, the very act of my sitting here typing in this post was already placed into the fabric of space/time.  While from my persepctive I can say I "chose" to sit here and type this, and I "chose" to turn my computer on rather than watch TV this morning, from God’s perspective this was all that not only would happen, but could happen.  I couldn’t have "surprised" God by watching TV rather than reading USENET.  Ergo, what looks like a totally free choice to me was in fact a pre-determined act that God saw in His knowledge before this universe was created. There is an interesting new theory that the actual underlying reality of the universe is not matter or energy, but information, and the 3D universe we see is a sort of "rendering" of this plane of information.  Could this information-plane be God’s knowledge, and we are simply a sort of "hologram" of God’s knowledge playing out in what we call space/time? Interesting…. Dan — Daniel S. Vieira raamthodol **at** earthlink **dot** net "We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force."                                                – Ayn Rand "Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he then be trusted with the government of others?" — Thomas Jefferson Nothing demanded at the point of a gun is voluntary, even      if that gun is cleverly concealed within the law.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: news.netfront.net!skynet.be!ngpeer.news.aol.com!feed1.newsreader.com!newsre ader.com!zeus.visi.com!priapus.visi.com!orange.octanews.net!news-out.visi.c om!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POS TED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.christnet.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptis t,alt.religion.christian.catholic,alt.religion.christian.presbyterian,alt.r eligion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.religion.scientology,alt.religion.watc htower.judicial Reply-To: God in Heaven X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.646 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 83 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.5.187.153 Xref: news.netfront.net alt.christnet.religion:4215 alt.religion.christian:529435 alt.religion.christian.baptist:316695 alt.religion.christian.catholic:2416 alt.religion.christian.presbyterian:44953 alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:460171 alt.religion.scientology:305410 alt.religion.watchtower.judicial:77 x-no-archive: yes  john_w replied Humans are all composed of a physical substance. Atoms, and molecules, nothing more. Our brain is composed of molecules interacting chemically every second of every day. These interactions, and reactions are unavoidably consistant, PREDICATABLE and PREDETERMINED. Bunk. I ran into this atheist pre determinism during college.  Nothing could be further from the truth. Every time you decide between McDonald’s and Burger King, you exercise free will.

Not according to your mythology, after all, your gods now everything that will happen before it happens. Supposedly. Now, if that is true, free will can not exist. If it is not true, limited free will can exist. Care to flap your lips & hover across Puget Sound. No, why not, don’t you have faith in your gods, or did they ordain that such a thing you would not be able to do. You certainly flap them enough for a ground cushion effect. When you go to the grocery store and you pick up the AIM toothpaste, instead of the Crest, you exercise free will.

Not if your gods exist. They knew you would pick that toothpaste before either you or that toothpaste came into existence. So I take it then that you are finally admitting your gods do not exist. When you are trying to decide whether to cook the steak or the Salmon

What’s to decide, your god already knows, of course, you are to ignorant to follow your claims out to their logical conclusion, but that is not  the readers fault. Simply another one of your short comings. filet for dinner, and you decide on the Porterhouse, you are exercising free will. When it comes time to buy that new car, and you’re deciding between an SUV and a mini-van, and you decide on the SUV, you are exercising free will.

See above, you are not worth the energy required for this message anyway, but your audience is. The choice of the mini-van or the SUV could not have been "programmed In" since MANY of us pre-existed both.

Unless your gods are not as claimed, those choices were programmed right in to start with.  jw  We as humans, as all other life forms, really have no free will. Free will is an illusion. You are an illusion, and listening to those silly voices in your head is part of your mistake.

Well, you certainly act the chimera.  All our actions, and emotions, and thoughts are predtermined. We as humans are a prisoner, so to speak, of our physical being. There is no escape, to try to escape is an illusion, for it is also predicaable and predetermined. Ridiculous.  Don’t believe everything your high-school atheist philosophy teacher told you. I got into this with my college philosophy prof ( a required class or I would not have been there to begin  with), and when I made him look like the idiot you are looking like right now, he tried to flunk me.

You did what? Care to provide a name? & if he tried to flunk you, you would have been flunked for gross stupidity. Another one of your insinuations, that you were in collage, that you took philosophy which is not normally a required course [depends on your major & minors] & had the ability to pass it without outside interference. & you wonder why you are held in contempt by so many.        You can dismiss this argument,which by the way is not complete, and is not original, but that will not make it any less important. Think about it, before dismissing. I’ve been thinking about it for 40 years. My opinion hasn’t changed.

It can’t, you have to have the ability to think in order to change an opinion. I first ran into this bunk in 9th grade.

& you have been running around it ever since. That seem to be where you got hung up; in the emotional/spiritual immaturity of 9th grade philosophy class.

So, you made it as far as the 9thngrade then? Amazing, who would have thought that after watching you & reading your posts. Even when I know I need to go to bed at 9 PM for work the next day, but I stay up til 11:30 to watch the late new ANYWAY, I am exercising free will.

You are but acting out the part your gods decreed for you from the beginning of time. Besides, according to you, at last claimed public whine, you can’t get work. Even when I decide to only date blondes who wear horn rimmed glasses, I am exercising free will.

No, you are letting the most intelligent part of you follow the script that was laid out by your gods. It sucks to be a slave like you. Your big issue is that you have yet to learn to think critically.  Try THAT before you dismiss it.

Why, you never have. & you scorn those that you catch doing that.        -Dennis

Back to you Dennis, if you want it that is. walksalone who is never dismayed at the depths of jws ignorance, nor his willingness to display it.

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Humans are all composed of a physical substance. Atoms, and molecules, nothing more. Are you sure? Our brain is composed of molecules interacting chemically every second of every day. These interactions, and reactions are unavoidably consistant, PREDICATABLE and PREDETERMINED. We as humans, as all other life forms, You mean that there is no reason to get out of bed? really have no free will. Free will is an illusion. Perhaps it is an illusion that it is an illusion? All our actions, and emotions, and thoughts are predtermined. We as humans are a prisoner, so to speak, of our physical being. Of course, but that can be overcome. There is no escape, to try to escape is an illusion, for it is also predicaable and predetermined. Hmmmm, Jesus seemed to accomplish the feat, quite nicely.        You can dismiss this argument,which by the way is not complete, and is not original, but that will not make it any less important. Think about it, before dismissing.        -Dennis What was the argument? — May God Bless You Michael "Those that give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." Benjamin Franklin

"Know the truth, and the truth will set you free" The truth is not found in religion, by the way. Dennis

Response:

x-no-archive: yes

 john_w replied Humans are all composed of a physical substance. Atoms, and molecules, nothing more. Our brain is composed of molecules interacting chemically every second of every day. These interactions, and reactions are unavoidably consistant, PREDICATABLE and PREDETERMINED.

Bunk. I ran into this atheist pre determinism during college.  Nothing could be further from the truth. Every time you decide between McDonald’s and Burger King, you exercise free will. When you go to the grocery store and you pick up the AIM toothpaste, instead of the Crest, you exercise free will. When you are trying to decide whether to cook the steak or the Salmon filet for dinner, and you decide on the Porterhouse, you are exercising free will. When it comes time to buy that new car, and you’re deciding between an SUV and a mini-van, and you decide on the SUV, you are exercising free will. The choice of the mini-van or the SUV could not have been "programmed In" since MANY of us pre-existed both. jw  We as humans, as all other life forms, really have no free will. Free will is an illusion.

You are an illusion, and listening to those silly voices in your head is part of your mistake.  All our actions, and emotions, and thoughts are predtermined. We as humans are a prisoner, so to speak, of our physical being. There is no escape, to try to escape is an illusion, for it is also predicaable and predetermined.

Ridiculous.  Don’t believe everything your high-school atheist philosophy teacher told you. I got into this with my college philosophy prof ( a required class or I would not have been there to begin  with), and when I made him look like the idiot you are looking like right now, he tried to flunk me.        You can dismiss this argument,which by the way is not complete, and is not original, but that will not make it any less important. Think about it, before dismissing.

I’ve been thinking about it for 40 years. My opinion hasn’t changed. I first ran into this bunk in 9th grade. That seem to be where you got hung up; in the emotional/spiritual immaturity of 9th grade philosophy class. Even when I know I need to go to bed at 9 PM for work the next day, but I stay up til 11:30 to watch the late new ANYWAY, I am exercising free will. Even when I decide to only date blondes who wear horn rimmed glasses, I am exercising free will. Your big issue is that you have yet to learn to think critically.  Try THAT before you dismiss it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –        -Dennis

Response:

x-no-archive: yes  john_w replied – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Humans are all composed of a physical substance. Atoms, and molecules, nothing more. Are you sure? Our brain is composed of molecules interacting chemically every second of every day. These interactions, and reactions are unavoidably consistant, PREDICATABLE and PREDETERMINED. We as humans, as all other life forms, You mean that there is no reason to get out of bed? really have no free will. Free will is an illusion. Perhaps it is an illusion that it is an illusion?

LOL!!   Good one!   I heard the tail end of that in college, and didn’t get it. Now that I see the whole question in context, your question is HILARIOUS!! All our actions, and emotions, and thoughts are predtermined. We as humans are a prisoner, so to speak, of our physical being. Of course, but that can be overcome. There is no escape, to try to escape is an illusion, for it is also predicaable and predetermined. Hmmmm, Jesus seemed to accomplish the feat, quite nicely.

Um hmmm..  Good point. I wish I’d said that. jw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –        You can dismiss this argument,which by the way is not complete, and is not original, but that will not make it any less important. Think about it, before dismissing.        -Dennis What was the argument?

Response:

x-no-archive: yes

 john_w replied – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… Humans are all composed of a physical substance. Atoms, and molecules, nothing more. Are you sure? Our brain is composed of molecules interacting chemically every second of every day. These interactions, and reactions are unavoidably consistant, PREDICATABLE and PREDETERMINED. We as humans, as all other life forms, You mean that there is no reason to get out of bed? really have no free will. Free will is an illusion. Perhaps it is an illusion that it is an illusion? All our actions, and emotions, and thoughts are predtermined. We as humans are a prisoner, so to speak, of our physical being. Of course, but that can be overcome. There is no escape, to try to escape is an illusion, for it is also predicaable and predetermined. Hmmmm, Jesus seemed to accomplish the feat, quite nicely.        You can dismiss this argument,which by the way is not complete, and is not original, but that will not make it any less important. Think about it, before dismissing.        -Dennis What was the argument? — May God Bless You Michael "Those that give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." Benjamin Franklin "Know the truth, and the truth will set you free" The truth is not found in religion, by the way.

Nonsense!  There is MUCH truth in scripture. Christianity DOES work for all who try it and take it seriously. And the ONLY way you can say there’s no truth in the Bible is to have not read  it. There is science in the Bible, it’s right on about human nature (psalms/proverbs), and there’s accurate history in the Bible. In fact, MUCH of the Bible is fulfilled prophesy (history). The prophesies about Christ alone are simply amazing. You’d come off MUCH smarter if you’d THINK for yourself, rather than quoting the illiterate, unread, un smart. MANY Christians I know are WELL-educated (myself), professionals (judges, doctors, lawyers, translators). We’ve built hospitals all over the world St Jude’s (free children’s hospital), Methodist hospitals, Baptist Hospitals, Presbyterian hospitals, Lutheran hospitals. as well as institutions of higher learning (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford). jw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dennis

Response:

Humans are all composed of a physical substance. Atoms, and molecules, nothing more.

Are you sure? Our brain is composed of molecules interacting chemically every second of every day. These interactions, and reactions are unavoidably consistant, PREDICATABLE and PREDETERMINED. We as humans, as all other life forms,

You mean that there is no reason to get out of bed? really have no free will. Free will is an illusion.

Perhaps it is an illusion that it is an illusion? All our actions, and emotions, and thoughts are predtermined. We as humans are a prisoner, so to speak, of our physical being.

Of course, but that can be overcome. There is no escape, to try to escape is an illusion, for it is also predicaable and predetermined.

Hmmmm, Jesus seemed to accomplish the feat, quite nicely.        You can dismiss this argument,which by the way is not complete, and is not original, but that will not make it any less important. Think about it, before dismissing.        -Dennis

What was the argument? — May God Bless You Michael "Those that give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." Benjamin Franklin

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Humans are all composed of a physical substance. Atoms, and molecules, nothing more. Our brain is composed of molecules interacting chemically every second of every day. These interactions, and reactions are unavoidably consistant, PREDICATABLE and PREDETERMINED. We as humans, as all other life forms, really have no free will. Free will is an illusion. All our actions, and emotions, and thoughts are predtermined. We as humans are a prisoner, so to speak, of our physical being. There is no escape, to try to escape is an illusion, for it is also predicaable and predetermined.        You can dismiss this argument,which by the way is not complete, and is not original, but that will not make it any less important. Think about it, before dismissing.        -Dennis

Response:

Question:

x-no-archive: yes john w replied I don’t think Jesus was omnipresent while he was on earth as a man. There is more to being a man than just having arms an legs. Man is not omnipresent. Man is forced to take one day at a time. An omnipresent being is not a man, wheter or not he has the arms and legs of a man. That is PRECISELY why, when He left us, He sent us the Holy Spirit, the Indweller, the Enabler.  In human form, Christ was limited to space and time. As the Holy Spirit, He can go when/where He chooses, and can be in 100 gazillion places at once.

Meaningless bullshit.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes john w replied I don’t think Jesus was omnipresent while he was on earth as a man. There is more to being a man than just having arms an legs. Man is not omnipresent. Man is forced to take one day at a time. An omnipresent being is not a man, wheter or not he has the arms and legs of a man. That is PRECISELY why, when He left us, He sent us the Holy Spirit, the Indweller, the Enabler.  In human form, Christ was limited to space and time. As the Holy Spirit, He can go when/where He chooses, and can be in 100 gazillion places at once. Meaningless bullshit.

So is your opinion. RAS

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes john w replied I don’t think Jesus was omnipresent while he was on earth as a man. There is more to being a man than just having arms an legs. Man is not omnipresent. Man is forced to take one day at a time. An omnipresent being is not a man, wheter or not he has the arms and legs of a man. That is PRECISELY why, when He left us, He sent us the Holy Spirit, the Indweller, the Enabler.  In human form, Christ was limited to space and time. As the Holy Spirit, He can go when/where He chooses, and can be in 100 gazillion places at once. Meaningless bullshit. So is your opinion.

No, moron, it is meaningless bullshit OUTSIDE YOUR RELIGION. Your religion and its myths are as meaningless outside Christianity as eg Islam, Hinduism etc are to Christians. Get a brain and start using it instead of rudely preaching your doctrines AT people outside your delusion, who couldn’t care what you believe AS LONG AS YOU HAVE THE COURTESY TO KEEP IT WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF YOUR RELIGION. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -RAS

Response:

alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, Truth Hunter alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic I don’t think Jesus was omnipresent while he was on earth as a man. There is more to being a man than just having arms an legs. Man is not omnipresent. Man is forced to take one day at a time. An omnipresent being is not a man, wheter or not he has the arms and legs of a man.

Interesting point. It’s not so much that there’s "more to being a man than just having arms an legs," but rather what it means to be fully human: perhaps some would agree that in some sense being "fully human" entails limitation. — "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You." – Attrib: Pauline Reage. Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion? See: <http://www.Video2CD.com. 35.00 gets your video on DVD. all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read. ** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.

Response:

One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach jw <john_weatherly47: x-no-archive: yes john w replied I don’t think Jesus was omnipresent while he was on earth as a man. There is more to being a man than just having arms an legs. Man is not omnipresent. Man is forced to take one day at a time. An omnipresent being is not a man, wheter or not he has the arms and legs of a man. That is PRECISELY why, when He left us, He sent us the Holy Spirit, the Indweller, the Enabler.  In human form, Christ was limited to space and time. As the Holy Spirit, He can go when/where He chooses, and can be in 100 gazillion places at once.

So where was ghosty in the old testament, before Jesus/Immanuel? — Vic Sagerquist aa#2011 Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department. Give a man a fish, and you’ll feed him for a day. Give him a religion, and he’ll starve to death while praying for a fish.         –Timothy Jones

Response:

One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach jw <john_weatherly47: x-no-archive: yes Your religion and its myths are as meaningless outside Christianity as eg Islam, Hinduism etc are to Christians. Not at all. In fact, an educated person who knows the Bible can see the future unfolding.

What you call educated, we call brainwashed.  An actual educated person knows the bible is bullshit. We experience miracles (something ELSE you know nothing about).

What you call miracles we call random events.  We just don’t attribute them to gods in the sky.  The rain storm that put out the fire that would have engulfed the little house on the prairie may have drowned a few nuns in the next county over.  It’s all a matter of perspective. Get a brain So…. you think that any intelligent person does not believe in God? LOL!!  In 50 years of being a Christian, I have not had one pastor yet who didn’t have MULTIPLE doctorates.

Intelligent people are also human.  We all have fears.  And different ways of dealing with them. — Vic Sagerquist aa#2011 Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department. Give a man a fish, and you’ll feed him for a day. Give him a religion, and he’ll starve to death while praying for a fish.         –Timothy Jones

Response:

One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach jw <john_weatherly47: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -x-no-archive: yes john w replied x-no-archive: yes john w replied I don’t think Jesus was omnipresent while he was on earth as a man. There is more to being a man than just having arms an legs. Man is not omnipresent. Man is forced to take one day at a time. An omnipresent being is not a man, wheter or not he has the arms and legs of a man. That is PRECISELY why, when He left us, He sent us the Holy Spirit, the Indweller, the Enabler.  In human form, Christ was limited to space and time. As the Holy Spirit, He can go when/where He chooses, and can be in 100 gazillion places at once. Meaningless bullshit. So is your opinion. LOL!! Wish I’d thought to say that.  I continue to wonder what perverse pleasure it gives these emotional 3-year olds to come into a Christian group where they don’t belong to begin with, and then take pot-shots with a shotgun. That’s adult!   NOT!!

It doesn’t take much of a brain to backtrack to the beginning of the thread and see that it was….  why Johnny Boy, it was YOU…. that responded first to a cross-posted Truth Hunter troll.  That makes you fair game, twit. — Vic Sagerquist aa#2011 Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department. Give a man a fish, and you’ll feed him for a day. Give him a religion, and he’ll starve to death while praying for a fish.         –Timothy Jones

Response:

alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.islam,al t.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.atheism: No, moron, it is meaningless bullshit OUTSIDE YOUR RELIGION. You DO have the ability to not bother with posts that are outside YOUR religion (that of self-worship).

Nonsense. Any indication that the poster worships himself? Your religion and its myths are as meaningless outside Christianity as eg Islam, Hinduism etc are to Christians. Not at all. In fact, an educated person who knows the Bible can see the future unfolding. We experience miracles (something ELSE you know nothing about).

That is the assertion. Proof? Get a brain So…. you think that any intelligent person does not believe in God?

Yes. LOL!!  In 50 years of being a Christian, I have not had one pastor yet who didn’t have MULTIPLE doctorates.

So? Theology is the ’science’ of nothing. These men were ALL Bible translators (fluent in the ancient Hebrew and Greek)  NOT stupid men, but EDUCATED, thoughtful men. Men who understood that they were sinners in need of salvation.

No, that is what they prefer to BELIEVE. Had they been born in Thailand, they would be monk, hold a doctorate in Buddhist theology and wrote about the Buddha. and start using it instead of rudely preaching your doctrines AT people outside your delusion, You DO have the option of not reading such posts.  I suggest you exercise that option, rather than sitting in a puddle of your own pee (because your diaper is soaked) SHRIEKING!

Either you are mentally 5 years old, or an early case of Alzheimer.

Response:

alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.islam,al t.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.atheism: Wish I’d thought to say that.  I continue to wonder what perverse pleasure it gives these emotional 3-year olds to come into a Christian group where they don’t belong to begin with, and then take pot-shots with a shotgun.

The only thing you have to do is delete the offending group. Agent warns about cross posting, but you prefer to do it anyway. That’s adult!   NOT!!

Wrote any good porn stories, recently?

Response:

Meaningless bullshit. Only to those who are perishing for unbelief.

That is the assertion. Proof? To HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of born-again Christians who experience God’s presence in our lives DAILY (as in miracles), the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is real.

There aren’t 100s of millions born again xtians.

Response:

alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.islam,al t.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.atheism: Meaningless bullshit. BTW, why are you cross-posting this carp?

Why "indeed". "Consider" yourself to hold the monopoly on that? If you aren’t a Baptist, or a born-again Christian, your comments are unwelcome, out-of-place, and quite childish.

I find bap-pissers very childish. Better stick to writing incest stories. Maybe you could do a nice religious one? The details of Lot and his cheery daughters?

Response:

snip How embarrassing, multiple,posts from one response, my apologies to one & all.

Response:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org

Our "Truth Hunter" suddenly changes his byline to "Jews For Judaism." Why the sudden change? Interesting that this group, Jews for Judaism, has criticised Messianic Jews for their "deception" of "stealth evangalism" – but it seems old Hunter is as stealthy as anyone else!

Response:

@cox.net sez in this lil’ ole news’froup…! Congradulations,

Another one who cannot spell CONGRATulations……. no ‘D’ as in ‘dummy’…… It has a "T", just FYI.

Response:

I don’t think Jesus was omnipresent while he was on earth as a man. There is more to being a man than just having arms an legs. Man is not omnipresent. Man is forced to take one day at a time. An omnipresent being is not a man, wheter or not he has the arms and legs of a man.

Congradulations, the, you just finally figured out that Jesus was fully man. And fully divine.

Response:

alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.islam,al t.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.atheism: x-no-archive: yes john w replied I don’t think Jesus was omnipresent while he was on earth as a man. There is more to being a man than just having arms an legs. Man is not omnipresent. Man is forced to take one day at a time. An omnipresent being is not a man, wheter or not he has the arms and legs of a man. That is PRECISELY why, when He left us, He sent us the Holy Spirit, the Indweller, the Enabler.

That is the assertion. Proof? In human form, Christ was limited to space and time.

That is the assertion. Proof? As the Holy Spirit, He can go when/where He chooses, and can be in 100 gazillion places at once.

That is the assertion. Proof?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes john w replied I don’t think Jesus was omnipresent while he was on earth as a man. There is more to being a man than just having arms an legs. Man is not omnipresent. Man is forced to take one day at a time. An omnipresent being is not a man, wheter or not he has the arms and legs of a man. That is PRECISELY why, when He left us, He sent us the Holy Spirit, the Indweller, the Enabler.  In human form, Christ was limited to space and time. As the Holy Spirit, He can go when/where He chooses, and can be in 100 gazillion places at once. Meaningless bullshit. So is your opinion.

As long as John Cross Poster Weatherly cannot back his ASSERTIONS up with some evidence, it remains bull shit.

Response:

newsgroup’s in a stellar display of ignorance & boasting. Follow ups set, there may be small animals, vermin even, that could accidentally be exposed to a jw post. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: news.netfront.net!skynet.be!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!newsfeed.esat.net!priapus. visi.com!orange.octanews.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews .net!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.islam,al t.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.atheism X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 76 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.5.187.56 Xref: news.netfront.net alt.religion.christian:528005 alt.religion.christian.baptist:314775 alt.religion.islam:524248 alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:458313 alt.atheism:1250255 x-no-archive: yes  john w replied under copyright x-no-archive: yes john w replied I don’t think Jesus was omnipresent while he was on earth as a man. There is more to being a man than just having arms an legs. Man is not omnipresent. Man is forced to take one day at a time. An omnipresent being is not a man, wheter or not he has the arms and legs of a man. That is PRECISELY why, when He left us, He sent us the Holy Spirit, the Indweller, the Enabler.  In human form, Christ was limited to space and time. As the Holy Spirit, He can go when/where He chooses, and can be in 100 gazillion places at once. Meaningless bullshit. So is your opinion. No, moron, it is meaningless bullshit OUTSIDE YOUR RELIGION. You DO have the ability to not bother with posts that are outside YOUR religion (that of self-worship).

That would be yours,. & you are a perfect example of the self made m]man, AKA shoddy workmanship. Your religion and its myths are as meaningless outside Christianity as eg Islam, Hinduism etc are to Christians. Not at all. In fact, an educated person who knows the Bible can see

That left you out. Your posting history indicates you are neither educated as the word is normally used, or know the xian grimorie. the future unfolding. We experience miracles (something ELSE you know nothing about).

Everyone else calls your miracle blind luck or a wino’s delusion. jw

the famous jw., the porn writer/buyer? Get a brain So…. you think that any intelligent person does not believe in God? LOL!!  In 50 years of being a Christian, I have not had one pastor yet

In how many years, are you over 100 yet? & true, you have not had a pastor that admits it. I can see why. who didn’t have MULTIPLE doctorates.

A doctorate in theology is a doctorate in the study of nothing. Not exactly bragging rights for most people. Dr. Carpenter, Dr. Pegg, Dr. Culbreth, Dr. Fickett, Dr. Stringfellow…

One thing can be said for you, you drop names faster than a diarrhetic goose drops shit. These men were ALL Bible translators (fluent in the ancient Hebrew and Greek)  NOT stupid men, but EDUCATED, thoughtful men. Men who understood that they were sinners in need of salvation.

Not necessarily, did they preach for free? What did they retire with? I doubt you know them, that well. If at all. and start using it instead of rudely preaching your doctrines AT people outside your delusion, You DO have the option of not reading such posts.  I suggest you

As you have the options of learning what you are talking about & quitting your crossposting. Not that anyone would expect either option to be exercised by you. Ignorance is bliss & you are living proof of that claim. exercise that option, rather than sitting in a puddle of your own pee (because your diaper is soaked) SHRIEKING!

No one would act like you do, so you are projecting your faults on others again. When it comes to making a mess & sitting in it, you are the queen of ARCB. Now, if you would just learn to stay in your crib & away from a computer. jw

The whining one that try’s to denigrate those that it knows are better than it, that one? Better educated & better people. < snip RAS

walksalone who notes, jw is still unable to dazzle anyone with its brilliance, & unable to baffle them with its bull shit. Might be because his posting history says he is not brilliant & full of shit?

Response:

an effort to prove he is as ignorant as it seems. He really is, just read its posts if you can find them. Follow up set to trolls home group. ARCB if anyone is interested or wants to go troll hunting. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.islam,al t.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.atheism X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.5.187.56 Path: news.netfront.net!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!newsvr.starhub.net.sg!in.100proofnew s.com!in.100proofnews.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.ne t!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: news.netfront.net alt.religion.christian:528009 alt.religion.christian.baptist:314779 alt.religion.islam:524262 alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:458321 alt.atheism:1250263 x-no-archive: yes  john w replied x-no-archive: yes john w replied I don’t think Jesus was omnipresent while he was on earth as a man. There is more to being a man than just having arms an legs. Man is not omnipresent. Man is forced to take one day at a time. An omnipresent being is not a man, wheter or not he has the arms and legs of a man. That is PRECISELY why, when He left us, He sent us the Holy Spirit, the Indweller, the Enabler.  In human form, Christ was limited to space and time. As the Holy Spirit, He can go when/where He chooses, and can be in 100 gazillion places at once. Meaningless bullshit. BTW, why are you cross-posting this carp?  If you aren’t a Baptist, or

He is not, you are crossposting this crap. Now everyone knows you think you are special & therefore not responsible for your actions, but in spite of that., you are. In spite of your assumptions, you are accountable for your actions. a born-again Christian, your comments are unwelcome, out-of-place, and quite childish.

So, then why are you trolling other newsgroup’s, & your claims about being Baptist [you aren't according to your claims & the relief of Baptists everywhere] & born again, which is possible, you appear to have suffered severe brain damage, or else you still haven’t got it right. why are you in a xian group? Grow up!

Would that you would, but miracles have been absent for over 2000 years. jw

the loser/poser then, right you are. walksalone who used to think jw might be acting, & now doubts that very much.

Response:

assumptions the following. Follow ups set out of mercy for the audience that can’t escape the troll, jw. SBT ARCB. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: news.netfront.net!HSNX.atgi.net!newsfeed.frii.net!newsfeed.frii.net!140.99. 99.194.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!feed.news.qwes t.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.islam,al t.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.atheism X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.5.184.17 Xref: news.netfront.net alt.religion.christian:527765 alt.religion.christian.baptist:314506 alt.religion.islam:523846 alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:458077 alt.atheism:1249630 x-no-archive: yes  john w replied I don’t think Jesus was omnipresent while he was on earth as a man. There is more to being a man than just having arms an legs. Man is not omnipresent. Man is forced to take one day at a time. An omnipresent being is not a man, wheter or not he has the arms and legs of a man. That is PRECISELY why, when He left us, He sent us the Holy Spirit,

But, according to your mythology spooky was around before the kid that history, in spite of some big efforts made, can not find. Granted, the kid would not even been Yahweh’s first born, but still, you could try to keep your mythology straight. the Indweller, the Enabler.  In human form, Christ was limited to

Then he was not a god, in spite of your assumptions. space and time. As the Holy Spirit, He can go when/where He chooses, and can be in 100 gazillion places at once.

That would be Yahweh from the Jewish mythos. Or Ahone, or Tate, or Bumba, or Leza. It is a rather large selection & I only posted a few. jw

the one that assumptions people will assume a known liar is capable of telling the truth, that one? walksalone who suspects that jw was at a seminary, clearing clogged commodes with hot air power.

Response:

Congradulations, the, you just finally figured out that Jesus was fully man.

Jesus was not fully human unless he got married and had children. And fully divine.

Anyone can be divine. The Sage My Home Page :                http://members.cox.net/the.sage "My friend plans to make a fortune with his invention. It’s a big metal box with a slot on one side and a sign that says ‘How gullible are you? To find out, insert $50.’" — COMEDY COMES CLEAN, by Bill Jones

Response:

says…snip You DO have the ability to not bother with posts that are outside YOUR religion (that of self-worship).

Self-worship?  I thought self-abuse (i.e., masturbation) was more your style. Do you do it while you’re composing your incest pornography novels? Robyn Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster #1557

Response:

says…snip BTW, why are you cross-posting this carp?  If you aren’t a Baptist, or a born-again Christian, your comments are unwelcome, out-of-place, and quite childish.

Tell me – Do they have much incest porno in your Baptist group?  Do your fellow Baptists know that not only do you write incest pornography, but you advertised for it on the Internet?  Is this part of being "born again". Grow up!

Tell me, John.  Is the reason you don’t allow your posts to be archived because of the one you made looking for incest pornography which is going to haunt you to the end of your days? Robyn Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster #1557

Response:

That is PRECISELY why, when He left us, He sent us the Holy Spirit, the Indweller, the Enabler.  In human form, Christ was limited to space and time. As the Holy Spirit, He can go when/where He chooses, and can be in 100 gazillion places at once.

So if I have diarrhea in the toilet, Jesus is present in my diarrhea? The Sage My Home Page :                http://members.cox.net/the.sage "My friend plans to make a fortune with his invention. It’s a big metal box with a slot on one side and a sign that says ‘How gullible are you? To find out, insert $50.’" — COMEDY COMES CLEAN, by Bill Jones

Response:

I don’t think Jesus was omnipresent while he was on earth as a man. There is more to being a man than just having arms an legs. Man is not omnipresent. Man is forced to take one day at a time. An omnipresent being is not a man, wheter or not he has the arms and legs of a man. http://www.jewsforjudaism.org

Response:

Question:

Strange how your inspired scripture is so full of holes You’re saying Scriptures is wrong because it didn’t include the history of Edison labs or the 100 years war?

            Does that mean true Catholics can’t use light bulbs, because they aren’t mentioned in the Bible? Paul

Response:

you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic : Does anyone here refer to the Bible as a History?  Just curious. Lot of people.  Look at the ones that take Genesis as a literal history of how the world was literally created and get their knickers in a twist when you present them with the two geneologies for Jesus found in the Gospels.

I believe Genesis is a literal account, but I don’t know ANY Christian who "gets their knickers in a twist" about the two geneologies found in the Gospels for Jesus. One is the geneology of Mary. The other is of Joseph, while not the physical father of Jesus, the legal one in human terms. Christian

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic : Does anyone here refer to the Bible as a History?  Just curious. Lot of people.  Look at the ones that take Genesis as a literal history of how the world was literally created and get their knickers in a twist when you present them with the two geneologies for Jesus found in the Gospels. I believe Genesis is a literal account, but I don’t know ANY Christian who "gets their knickers in a twist" about the two geneologies found in the Gospels for Jesus. One is the geneology of Mary. The other is of Joseph, while not the physical father of Jesus, the legal one in human terms.

Two questions for you, then. (1) Which is the geneology of Mary?  Both Matthew and Luke discuss the geneology as it pertains to Joseph and *his* lineage, not Mary’s. (2) Why would any geneology of Mary be given? Alberich

Response:

Why?  What’s the point?  Are you somehow implying that the Bible has no self-contradicitons? I knew it! Okay, Al. Walk me through it, here. Al’s Patented ‘Bible-contradiction’. Time to walk the walk.

Oh look, another protestant fundamentalist who thinks there are no errors in scripture. — Alan "Ferrit" Ferris  ()’.’.’()  ( (T) )  ( ) . ( )  (")_(")

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s face it. This is powerful, supernatural stuff if you believe it to be historical. And I certainly do. But I don’t see a problem, therefore, with someone questioning what appear to be inconsistencies in the story. A story like this had better be right, or . . forget about it – right? So if this just doesn’t answer it for you, let me know. Just shows how stories change in their telling. Stories, maybe. Not inspired Scripture. This is just how it happened. But not every story repeats exactly the same aspect. And that doesn’t make it a contradiction.

Strange how your inspired scripture is so full of holes and contradicts both history and geography. But hey RC, taking scripture as SOLA is so passe. — Alan "Ferrit" Ferris  ()’.’.’()  ( (T) )  ( ) . ( )  (")_(")

Response:

Oh look, another protestant fundamentalist who thinks there are no errors in scripture.

This was supposed to be Al’s ‘Bible contradiction’ thread. But you got one of your own? Peace.

Response:

Strange how your inspired scripture is so full of holes

You’re saying Scriptures is wrong because it didn’t include the history of Edison labs or the 100 years war? Peace.

Response:

Why?  What’s the point?  Are you somehow implying that the Bible has no self-contradicitons? I knew it! Okay, Al. Walk me through it, here. Al’s Patented ‘Bible-contradiction’. What is WRONG with you???  First, you avoid actual discussion on evolution for as long as you can.

Not me, Al. I asked so many question of you, I lost track. You didn’t want to think it through. I thought maybe you’d given up on the notion. Shown some sense. another topic that you *know* you can’t win?

Go ahead. I dare’s ya. Really, Al. Walk me through it, here. Al’s Patented ‘Bible-contradiction’. Tell me all about it. Peace. . . . "art" inspired by nothing fades to nothingness soon enough. [Michelle Malkin, 24 NOV 2000 (discussing Marilyn Manson)]

Response:

Why?  What’s the point?  Are you somehow implying that the Bible has no self-contradicitons? I knew it! Okay, Al. Walk me through it, here. Al’s Patented ‘Bible-contradiction’. Time to walk the walk.

What is WRONG with you???  First, you avoid actual discussion on evolution for as long as you can.  Now you want to pick a fight on another topic that you *know* you can’t win?  Are you drinking idiot-juice lately??? Alberich

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there no contradiction there?  I only point out that it might be wise to keep in mind some of the literal contradictions contained within the Bible when attempting to use it as a historical record. Okay. I’m fine with that. Maybe I jumped the gun, there. I was just sure I had an Al ‘Bible-contradiction’. And I was ready. Here’s a contradiction: After the crucifiction, who went to the tomb and what did they see? Construct a tale that is consistent with all the accounts. Easy. Simple. Straightforward. And you knew that, too. The Gospel of Luke: 23:55 And the women that were come with him from Galilee . . 24:1 . . . very early came to the monument, carrying the spices which they had prepared. 24:2 And they found the stone rolled back from the monument. 24:3 And going in they found not the body of our Lord, JESUS. 24:4 And it came to pass: as they were astonished in their mind at this, behold two men stood beside them in glittering apparel. All these women related the story, particularly Magdalene, who apparently just headed right back and didn’t go inside. The Apostles didn’t believe them, but they did make haste, as it were. The were able to do so because the guards obviously had collected themselves and fled to tell the Pharisees – oops, our bad (which is not a good thing in a military dictatorship where people get executed for the smallest offenses). He returns to find physical evidence. But Our Lord’s Resurrected Body was able to pass through solid objects. The stone didn’t have to be rolled away – as in Mel’s movie. It was rolled away as a sign, as confirmation that Our Lord has Risen. Okay: The Gospel of Matthew: 28:1 And in the evening of the Sabbath which dawns on the first of the Sabbath, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 28:2 And behold there was a great earthquake. For an angle of our Lord descended from Heaven: and coming, rolled back the stone, and sat upon it: 28:3 and his countenance was as lightning: and his garment as snow. 28:4 And for fear of him, the watchmen were frightened, and became as dead. Already if you quarrel with the time, Matthew is referring to the early morning, when it is still dark, up to sunrise. Luke refers to many women, including Mary Magdalene, sister of Lazarus, who apparently didn’t go in, but just hurried back with the news that Our Lord’s body was missing, and Mary, mother of James the Less (also Joanna, wife of Herod’s steward, Chuza). But Matthew just mentions the latter. John only Magdalene, to perhaps suggest the great love she had for Jesus. That doesn’t mean others weren’t present. Luke refers to two angels. Matthew only one. Mark as well. The one angel would seem to be visible to the guards, who froze stiff with fear at seeing an actual angel – understandable. He was at the entrance, or just inside an antechamber, and was the herald, as it were. The other two were standing inside, right where Jesus’ Body had been laid. And they said something else, an encouragement. Let’s face it. This is powerful, supernatural stuff if you believe it to be historical. And I certainly do. But I don’t see a problem, therefore, with someone questioning what appear to be inconsistencies in the story. A story like this had better be right, or . . forget about it – right? So if this just doesn’t answer it for you, let me know. Peace.

        I am STILL waiting for Him to supernaturally fatten my bank account….. Paul

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there no contradiction there?  I only point out that it might be wise to keep in mind some of the literal contradictions contained within the Bible when attempting to use it as a historical record. Okay. I’m fine with that. Maybe I jumped the gun, there. I was just sure I had an Al ‘Bible-contradiction’. And I was ready.

Perhaps you should read what’s written as written, rather than looking for something that isn’t there. Alberich

Response:

Okay. I’m fine with that. Maybe I jumped the gun, there. I was just sure I had an Al ‘Bible-contradiction’. And I was ready. Perhaps you should read what’s written as written, rather than looking for something that isn’t there.

I expect you’ll have a ‘Bible-contradiction’, yet. And I’ll be ready for ya. Peace. to the only God our Saviour by JESUS Christ our Lord, be glory and magnificence, empire and power before all worlds, and now and for all worlds evermore. Amen.

Response:

Okay. I’m fine with that. Maybe I jumped the gun, there. I was just sure I had an Al ‘Bible-contradiction’. And I was ready. Perhaps you should read what’s written as written, rather than looking for something that isn’t there. I expect you’ll have a ‘Bible-contradiction’, yet. And I’ll be ready for ya.

And I expect that someday you’ll experience a truly moving thought. And then you can wipe, and remember to flush. Alberich

Response:

And I’ll be ready for ya. And I expect that someday you’ll experience a truly moving thought.

Don’t be like that, Al. Sure you don’t have a ‘Bible-contradiction’ tucked away in there, somewhere? Why don’t you pause and take a second look. I’ll wait. Peace. . . . "art" inspired by nothing fades to nothingness soon enough. [Michelle Malkin, 24 NOV 2000 (discussing Marilyn Manson)]

Response:

And I’ll be ready for ya. And I expect that someday you’ll experience a truly moving thought. Don’t be like that, Al. Sure you don’t have a ‘Bible-contradiction’ tucked away in there, somewhere? Why don’t you pause and take a second look. I’ll wait.

Why?  What’s the point?  Are you somehow implying that the Bible has no self-contradicitons?  That anyone that believes that it does is damned?  Enough of your word games, spit it out!  Be proud of what you have to say and quit snivelling in the corner. Alberich

Response:

Does anyone here refer to the Bible as a History?  Just curious. Yes.

What do you know about the Bible, Danny? You just read pamphlets. BAM

Response:

Why?  What’s the point?  Are you somehow implying that the Bible has no self-contradicitons?

I knew it! Okay, Al. Walk me through it, here. Al’s Patented ‘Bible-contradiction’. Time to walk the walk. Peace. . . . "art" inspired by nothing fades to nothingness soon enough. [Michelle Malkin, 24 NOV 2000 (discussing Marilyn Manson)]

Response:

Let’s face it. This is powerful, supernatural stuff if you believe it to be historical. And I certainly do. But I don’t see a problem, therefore, with someone questioning what appear to be inconsistencies in the story. A story like this had better be right, or . . forget about it – right? So if this just doesn’t answer it for you, let me know.

Just shows how stories change in their telling. — Alan "Ferrit" Ferris  ()’.’.’()  ( (T) )  ( ) . ( )  (")_(")

Response:

Let’s face it. This is powerful, supernatural stuff if you believe it to be historical. And I certainly do. But I don’t see a problem, therefore, with someone questioning what appear to be inconsistencies in the story. A story like this had better be right, or . . forget about it – right? So if this just doesn’t answer it for you, let me know. Just shows how stories change in their telling.

Stories, maybe. Not inspired Scripture. This is just how it happened. But not every story repeats exactly the same aspect. And that doesn’t make it a contradiction. Peace. "[There] are countless people who pretend not  to hate Christ, but subtly demote him to the  rank of a ‘great moral teacher,’ or say they  have nothing against Christianity as long as  the ’separation of church and state’ is observed,  or, under the guise of scholarship, affect to  winnow out his ‘authentic’ utterances from those  falsely ascribed to him as if the Apostles would  have dared to put words in his mouth!" [Joe Sobran, The Words and Deeds of Christ, NOV 2000, http://www.sobran.com/wordschrist.shtml ]

Response:

Is there no contradiction there?  I only point out that it might be wise to keep in mind some of the literal contradictions contained within the Bible when attempting to use it as a historical record.

Okay. I’m fine with that. Maybe I jumped the gun, there. I was just sure I had an Al ‘Bible-contradiction’. And I was ready. Here’s a contradiction: After the crucifiction, who went to the tomb and what did they see? Construct a tale that is consistent with all the accounts.

Easy. Simple. Straightforward. And you knew that, too. The Gospel of Luke: 23:55 And the women that were come with him from Galilee . . 24:1 . . . very early came to the monument, carrying the spices which they had prepared. 24:2 And they found the stone rolled back from the monument. 24:3 And going in they found not the body of our Lord, JESUS. 24:4 And it came to pass: as they were astonished in their mind at this, behold two men stood beside them in glittering apparel. All these women related the story, particularly Magdalene, who apparently just headed right back and didn’t go inside. The Apostles didn’t believe them, but they did make haste, as it were. The were able to do so because the guards obviously had collected themselves and fled to tell the Pharisees – oops, our bad (which is not a good thing in a military dictatorship where people get executed for the smallest offenses). He returns to find physical evidence. But Our Lord’s Resurrected Body was able to pass through solid objects. The stone didn’t have to be rolled away – as in Mel’s movie. It was rolled away as a sign, as confirmation that Our Lord has Risen. Okay: The Gospel of Matthew: 28:1 And in the evening of the Sabbath which dawns on the first of the Sabbath, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 28:2 And behold there was a great earthquake. For an angle of our Lord descended from Heaven: and coming, rolled back the stone, and sat upon it: 28:3 and his countenance was as lightning: and his garment as snow. 28:4 And for fear of him, the watchmen were frightened, and became as dead. Already if you quarrel with the time, Matthew is referring to the early morning, when it is still dark, up to sunrise. Luke refers to many women, including Mary Magdalene, sister of Lazarus, who apparently didn’t go in, but just hurried back with the news that Our Lord’s body was missing, and Mary, mother of James the Less (also Joanna, wife of Herod’s steward, Chuza). But Matthew just mentions the latter. John only Magdalene, to perhaps suggest the great love she had for Jesus. That doesn’t mean others weren’t present. Luke refers to two angels. Matthew only one. Mark as well. The one angel would seem to be visible to the guards, who froze stiff with fear at seeing an actual angel – understandable. He was at the entrance, or just inside an antechamber, and was the herald, as it were. The other two were standing inside, right where Jesus’ Body had been laid. And they said something else, an encouragement. Let’s face it. This is powerful, supernatural stuff if you believe it to be historical. And I certainly do. But I don’t see a problem, therefore, with someone questioning what appear to be inconsistencies in the story. A story like this had better be right, or . . forget about it – right? So if this just doesn’t answer it for you, let me know. Peace. to the only God our Saviour by JESUS Christ our Lord, be glory and magnificence, empire and power before all worlds, and now and for all worlds evermore. Amen.

Response:

Does anyone here refer to the Bible as a History?  Just curious.

Lot of people.  Look at the ones that take Genesis as a literal history of how the world was literally created and get their knickers in a twist when you present them with the two geneologies for Jesus found in the Gospels.

Response:

Does anyone here refer to the Bible as a History?  Just curious. Lot of people.  Look at the ones that take Genesis as a literal history of how the world was literally created and get their knickers in a twist when you present them with the two geneologies for Jesus found in the Gospels.

It was inevitable. Al – the evolutionist – with his own Bible-contradictions. Go ahead. The floor’s all yours. Spin the yarn. Tell the tale. What it’s all about – Al – this Bible-contradiction you’ve found? Peace. . . . "art" inspired by nothing fades to nothingness soon enough. [Michelle Malkin, 24 NOV 2000 (discussing Marilyn Manson)]

Response:

Does anyone here refer to the Bible as a History?  Just curious.

Salvation History. Is that close enough? — Every truth, no matter who says it, comes from the Holy Spirit.                                                             Pope Damasus

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone here refer to the Bible as a History?  Just curious. Lot of people.  Look at the ones that take Genesis as a literal history of how the world was literally created and get their knickers in a twist when you present them with the two geneologies for Jesus found in the Gospels. It was inevitable. Al – the evolutionist – with his own Bible-contradictions. Go ahead. The floor’s all yours. Spin the yarn. Tell the tale. What it’s all about – Al – this Bible-contradiction you’ve found?

Is there no contradiction there?  I only point out that it might be wise to keep in mind some of the literal contradictions contained within the Bible when attempting to use it as a historical record. Care to point out the flaw in that? Alberich

Response:

Does anyone here refer to the Bible as a History?  Just curious.

Response:

Question:

Ya gotta read if ya want to play along.  Apparently you’re too ignorant to be a troll.

Fucking moron, you know nothing about trolling.  The troll’s primary purpose is to get responses, and you’ve cooperated quite nicely.  Please be a good sucker and respond in turn to this one, and make my day an even nicer one!  

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First things first, where’s blanche? He’s still peeing in the pool and trolling the newsgroup in his usual way. He had his lame arse severely kicked in alt.language latin for being off-topic and a miserable sod. He has killfiled me for the third time and claims that Jesus taught those ‘experts’ {sic} in the Temple and has failed to present Scriptural evidence for that. The Mass as we knew it is still dead, and _he_ still didn’t say that, one of my ‘reformist’ buddies did. And he’s still promoting that flowery joke of his. Nothing has changed, but you were sadly missed! <big manly hug Peace] Well-summarized, Daniel.

Thanks, Robert A. Cheesecake? DH — "Don’t project. Remember, _I’m_ the Reformed Catholic, here." St. Mark Johnson on arcr-c, 15 May 2003

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First things first, where’s blanche? He’s still peeing in the pool and trolling the newsgroup in his usual way. He had his lame arse severely kicked in alt.language latin for being off-topic and a miserable sod. He has killfiled me for the third time and claims that Jesus taught those ‘experts’ {sic} in the Temple and has failed to present Scriptural evidence for that. The Mass as we knew it is still dead, and _he_ still didn’t say that, one of my ‘reformist’ buddies did. And he’s still promoting that flowery joke of his. Nothing has changed, but you were sadly missed! <big manly hug Peace] Well-summarized, Daniel. Thanks, Robert A. Cheesecake? DH

Yes, please.  And a cup of coffee.

Response:

If you don’t know who blanche is then this newsgroup has all but collapsed. Something is seriously wrong, an accounting must be made. A while back I suggested that all the trolls in here be counted and ranked. Nobody seemed interested, so I doubt if any accounting will be made as to the whereabouts of the Blanche writer either.

Blanche is all over this newsgroup… he styles himself "mark johnson", but he’ll always be blanche to me. Steve

Response:

Sheesh, is this thing on? Testing, 1, 2, 3. Oh Honey!!!! I’m home!

Oh my God!!!! Steve — First things first, where’s blanche?

He’s still peeing in the pool and trolling the newsgroup in his usual way. He had his lame arse severely kicked in alt.language latin for being off-topic and a miserable sod. He has killfiled me for the third time and claims that Jesus taught those ‘experts’ {sic} in the Temple and has failed to present Scriptural evidence for that. The Mass as we knew it is still dead, and _he_ still didn’t say that, one of my ‘reformist’ buddies did. And he’s still promoting that flowery joke of his. Nothing has changed, but you were sadly missed! <big manly hug Peace

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First things first, where’s blanche? He’s still peeing in the pool and trolling the newsgroup in his usual way. He had his lame arse severely kicked in alt.language latin for being off-topic and a miserable sod. He has killfiled me for the third time and claims that Jesus taught those ‘experts’ {sic} in the Temple and has failed to present Scriptural evidence for that. The Mass as we knew it is still dead, and _he_ still didn’t say that, one of my ‘reformist’ buddies did. And he’s still promoting that flowery joke of his. Nothing has changed, but you were sadly missed! <big manly hug Peace]

Well-summarized, Daniel.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sheesh, is this thing on? Yeah.  The Roman Catholic Religion is a pile of ancient cult rubbish, one of the oldest and longest running scams in human history. Testing, 1, 2, 3. Everybody around here is testy. Oh Honey!!!! I’m home! Good.  Go get the garbage and take it out to the curb. First things first, where’s blanche? Who is Blanche?

Ya gotta read if ya want to play along.  Apparently you’re too ignorant to be a troll.

Response:

Sheesh, is this thing on? Testing, 1, 2, 3. Oh Honey!!!! I’m home! Steve —   First things first, where’s blanche?

Response:

Sheesh, is this thing on?

Yeah.  The Roman Catholic Religion is a pile of ancient cult rubbish, one of the oldest and longest running scams in human history. Testing, 1, 2, 3.

Everybody around here is testy. Oh Honey!!!! I’m home!

Good.  Go get the garbage and take it out to the curb. First things first, where’s blanche?

Who is Blanche?

Response:

Sheesh, is this thing on? Yeah.  The Roman Catholic Religion is a pile of ancient cult rubbish, one of the oldest and longest running scams in human history.

Go pound sand. Testing, 1, 2, 3. Everybody around here is testy.

Well it’s good to know that some things never change. Oh Honey!!!! I’m home! Good.  Go get the garbage and take it out to the curb. First things first, where’s blanche? Who is Blanche?

Apparently I got back just in time. Steve —   Ted delenda est

Response:

Sheesh, is this thing on? Yeah.  The Roman Catholic Religion is a pile of ancient cult rubbish, one of the oldest and longest running scams in human history. Go pound sand.

I only pound sand when I’m compacting the base for a sidewalk, I charge around $25.00 an hour to do it.  It’s a boring process, even though I have a machine that does it. Testing, 1, 2, 3. Everybody around here is testy. Well it’s good to know that some things never change.

unlike your God? Apparently I got back just in time.

for what?

Response:

Go pound sand. I only pound sand when I’m compacting the base for a sidewalk, I charge around $25.00 an hour to do it.  It’s a boring process, even though I have a machine that does it.

My point exactly… so go pound some. Well it’s good to know that some things never change. unlike your God?

Apparently I got back just in time. for what?

If you don’t know who blanche is then this newsgroup has all but collapsed. Something is seriously wrong, an accounting must be made. Steve —   No seriously, where’s the freaking tagline doohickey on this thing?

Response:

Sheesh, is this thing on? Testing, 1, 2, 3. Oh Honey!!!! I’m home! Steve —   First things first, where’s blanche?

<big unmanly hug <sniff sniff I’ve missed  you so much. How’s the wife and kids? You’ll find Blanche at the kommode, flushing his Latin grammar book. Alberich nailed him on evolution, and MJ just plain refuses to read the post. It’s a hoot. MJ got his skanky ass kicked until Hell won’t have it (again). Are you sitting down??? You need to sit for this one: MJ decided to trot his little self over to alt.language.latin. It was a PG-13 slaughter scene, I tell you. Not only did he make a bigger ass of himself, but the regulars on that group decided to post back at him in Latin. MJ’s flailing alone was worth the price of admission.     So, now, our resident latin ’super-expert’… here, has announced to the world (we alerted the media, BTW), that he has commenced with Latin studies, after he admitted he doesn’t know shit about Latin. MJ also killfiled DH for the 23rd time, after DH responded to the usual MJ screed… in Latin. (That’s our boy!!!) His latest bent is that Jesus must have been stupid because his step-father was a carpenter. sumBuny is having a blast baiting him and then booting his already bruised ego (Oops, I misspelled "ass." Mea culpa.) You’ll His Royal Blanchiness on the threads: "Which Religions Should Be Banned" and MLK Day and "Mass Changed Back?" Dude, I missed you!!!!!!! <another big unmanly hug Cheers, and pass the cheesecake! maf and dog, aa #1954

Response:

Sheesh, is this thing on? Yeah.  The Roman Catholic Religion is a pile of ancient cult rubbish, one of the oldest and longest running scams in human history. Go pound sand.

Chuckles is our latest troll-wannabe du jour. He’s still in training, but he has some potential (as a chew toy for my dog) Testing, 1, 2, 3. Everybody around here is testy. Well it’s good to know that some things never change.

I’m not testy, bitch. You’re just cranky. Oh Honey!!!! I’m home! Good.  Go get the garbage and take it out to the curb. First things first, where’s blanche? Who is Blanche? Apparently I got back just in time.

Amen and Hallelujah!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Steve —   Ted delenda est

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Go pound sand. I only pound sand when I’m compacting the base for a sidewalk, I charge around $25.00 an hour to do it.  It’s a boring process, even though I have a machine that does it. My point exactly… so go pound some. Well it’s good to know that some things never change. unlike your God?

You rang? Hey, this ain’t me. I write better, I make a point, and, get real, would I use a sock named Chuckles? Sheesh. Apparently I got back just in time. for what? If you don’t know who blanche is then this newsgroup has all but collapsed. Something is seriously wrong, an accounting must be made.

Fine. It’s your fault for abandoning us, at a most crucial and critical time. You have no one to blame but yourself for leaving us humble rank amateurs in charge. But we love you anyway <kiss noise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Steve —   No seriously, where’s the freaking tagline doohickey on this thing?

Response:

If you don’t know who blanche is then this newsgroup has all but collapsed. Something is seriously wrong, an accounting must be made.

A while back I suggested that all the trolls in here be counted and ranked. Nobody seemed interested, so I doubt if any accounting will be made as to the whereabouts of the Blanche writer either.

Response:

You rang? Hey, this ain’t me. I write better, I make a point, and, get real, would I use a sock named Chuckles? Sheesh.

Sorry I was just calling you in for support, good grief I didn’t think he was YOU. What a horrible insult and I apologize for even giving the appearance of suggesting it. If you don’t know who blanche is then this newsgroup has all but collapsed. Something is seriously wrong, an accounting must be made. Fine. It’s your fault for abandoning us, at a most crucial and critical time. You have no one to blame but yourself for leaving us humble rank amateurs in charge. But we love you anyway <kiss noise

Give me some time to reaclimate myself to unmoderated madness. I’ve had to bite my tongue so many times in the past couple of years that I hardly know how to write shit (oh hey! it’s starting to come back already). Steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sheesh, is this thing on? Yeah.  The Roman Catholic Religion is a pile of ancient cult rubbish, one of the oldest and longest running scams in human history. Go pound sand. Chuckles is our latest troll-wannabe du jour. He’s still in training, but he has some potential (as a chew toy for my dog)

Well it takes practice, but how does he not know blanche? This is an obscenity! Testing, 1, 2, 3. Everybody around here is testy. Well it’s good to know that some things never change. I’m not testy, bitch. You’re just cranky.

You can’t imagine how cranky I am. I see the newsgroup is pretty much down to blanche and a few crossposters, sheesh. Steve

Response:

Question:

Islam in Albania Islam in the World (4) Albania: Freedom Unconsidered

Here’s the real Albania: Albanian Muslims and the Skenderberg SS Division 1)  In Hitler’s plan to "dismember" Yugoslavia, thousands of Muslims, of the Bektashi and Sunni sects, willingly served the Nazi cause.  The Nazis occupied Yugoslavia twice, both in 1941 and then again in 1944 after the downfall of Italy.   <http://www.rastko.org.yu/kosovo/istorija/savic_skenderbeyss1.html 2)  During the first occupation in 1941, planned by the Gestapo and the Albanian (muslim) Committee, Jewish property was seized and their businesses closed.  They were made to wear yellow armbands identifying them as Jews and were conscripted for forced labor.   <http://www.rastko.org.yu/kosovo/istorija/savic_skenderbeyss1.html 3)  Albanian muslims who led the 1941 outrage against the Jews included Mamut Perijuc, Ramiz Mulic, and Osman Ibrahimovic who all worked with the German Gestapo.  Ibrahimovic personally ordered the destruction of the Jewish synagogue in Kosovska Mitrovica including the destruction of all their papers, documents and archives.   <http://www.rastko.org.yu/kosovo/istorija/savic_skenderbeyss1.html 4)  In Pristina, during the first occupation, the theft of Jewish property and other anti-Jewish measures was carried out by members of the Kosovar Albanian team including "Maljus Kosova, president of the Committee, Dzemal beg Ismail Kanli, head of the police, Rasid Memedali, and Rifat Sukri Ramadan."   <http://www.rastko.org.yu/kosovo/istorija/savic_skenderbeyss1.html 5)  During the second occupation, somewhere around 2000 Albanian Kosovars served in both police and paramilitary (Vulnetara) forces formed by the Germans to oversee at least part of the region.  Kosovars are Muslims of the Kosovo region, having settled there during the Turkish occupation which commenced in the 14th IIRC.   <http://www.rastko.org.yu/kosovo/istorija/savic_skenderbeyss1.html 6)  In 1944, after having determined that they were racially "pure" Aryans (the master race) Himmler ordered the formation of an Albanian SS division called the "Skenderberg" whose purpose it was to occupy and "ethnically cleanse" the  Kosovo-Metohija of Jews, Gypsies, Orthodox Serbs and other non-Albanians.  Roughly two thirds or 4,300 of these were "Kosovars" or Albanian Muslims.  They comprised, as best as I an tell, roughly one half of the entire Skenderberg Division.  It is thought that Himmler also tried to or did form a second Albanian division.   <http://www.rastko.org.yu/kosovo/istorija/savic_skenderbeyss1.html 7)  The Skenderberg carried out a plan of systematic genocide against Jews and Orthodox Serbian Christians & massacred unarmed Serbian civilians— all of whom they considered "untermenschen" (subhumans)— with a goal to create an "ethnically pure" Kosovo.  They also deported Jews and others to concentration camps run by the Third Reich.   <http://www.rastko.org.yu/kosovo/istorija/savic_skenderbeyss1.html  In May 1944, the Skenderberg commenced a raid on Pristina, looting and raiding the homes of Kosovo Jews, rounding them up and placing them in makeshift facilities for later transportation to the death camps.   In May and June of 1944, they rounded up over 500 Jews and Serbs.   <http://www.rastko.org.yu/kosovo/istorija/savic_skenderbeyss1.html .

Response:

Islam in Albania To read full article go to http://members.tripod.com/worldupdates/islamintheworld/id22.htm

This article says nothing about the neighboring province of Kosovo, nor does it acknowledge the role of the western nations in protecting the Albanian population. In fact, the west is mentioned only to suggest that it exhibits "contempt and disregard" for Albania, and to berate it for not giving it any money.

Response:

Islam in Albania

http://www.inatoday.com/new%20terror%20state%20111003.htm Birth of New Terror State? November 11, 2003 By Toby Westerman Copyright 2003 International News Analysis Today www.inatoday.com NATO and the European Union may be responsible for the birth of a nation devoted to the active destruction of the West – including the United States — and would be situated only a few hundred miles from the heart of Europe. The new nation would be called Kosova, derived from its present legal name Kosovo. Kosovo is technically a province of the Balkan state of Serbia, but has been under NATO/UN control since the end of the NATO air war against Serbia in 1999. Kosovo’s majority population is ethnic Albanian, with a dwindling Serb minority. Most Albanian politicians want union with Albania and other Albanian areas in the region. Terror experts believe that Albania is again being used for transit and terrorist training for operatives traveling from the Near East into Europe. Reports have come to light that Osama bin Laden’s terror network trained members of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) in 1999, just prior to NATO’s conquest of the Serb province. The administration of President Bill Clinton actively sought independence for Kosovo/Kosova, along with the UN and a number of non-governmental organizations, according to Dr. Thomas Fleming, a leading authority on the Balkans and President of the Rockford Institute, a conservative think tank. In view of continuing terrorist activities since September 11, the support for an independent Kosovo/Kosova has declined. "France and Germany are terrified of the progress of Islam in Europe," stated Fleming. Gunrunning, drug trafficking, and the sale of women are all hallmarks of life in NATO/UN-controlled Kosovo. Most of the Serb population living in Kosovo before NATO/UN rule has been driven out. Serbs remaining in Kosovo are the targets of assaults, Serb property has been confiscated, and many Serb churches – some hundreds of years old – have been burned to the ground. On November 5, 2003 the Serbian government issued a "White Book" detailing the involvement of leading Kosovo politicians and activists in the trafficking of drugs and humans. The Serbs, however, still are the "bad guys in the black hats" in Balkan affairs, with international sympathy going to the ethnic Albanians, especially in the United States. "They have no natural constituency in the United States," said Fleming. Fleming also stated that U.S. and European foreign policy traditionally opposed a dominant power arising in the Balkans, and that Western powers distrusted Serb intentions in the Balkans. The Serbs also recall a religiously oriented Europe, Fleming stated. "The Serbs remind Europe of what Europe of what it used to be – the Song of Roland, [the victory of Christian Europe at] Lepanto, the Christian warrior. The Serbs have their problems but they believe in something. They [the international community] want to replicate Santa Barbara, California over the entire planet," declared Fleming. NATO attacked Serbia to defend the ethnic Albanians living in Kosovo, following a series of high-profile media reports depicting Serb-perpetrated massacres against the Albanian majority living in Kosovo. At the time, Serbia was the major partner in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, now reorganized as the Republic of Serbia – Montenegro. After NATO’s occupation of Kosovo, however, no evidence of mass killings of Albanians was found. The "international community" has given technical reassurance through UN Resolution 1244 that Kosovo will remain part of Serbia, but NATO and UN administrators have provided Kosovo with all the necessary tools to achieve independence. RELATED ARTICLES: In Their Image and Likeness: Part II Building the Islamic "Green Belt" In Their Image and Likeness: Part I Militant Islamic "Green Belt" Threatens West Copyright 2003 International News Analysis Today 2364 Jackson St. #301 Stoughton, WI 53589 U.S.A. Visit the INA Today Bookshelf ! Return to INA TODAY.com homepage  "Ah yes, we must mollify angry fanatics who seek our destruction because otherwise .. they might get mad and seek our destruction." – Ann Coulter 9/26/2002

Response:

Islam in Albania Islam in the World (4) Albania: Freedom Unconsidered H. Abiva [The Albanians embraced Islam nearly as a whole, which is remarkable when seen in the light of Albanian history. Their ancient origin was from the Illyrian people who inhabited the Adriatic littoral of the Balkan peninsula. The rugged terrain of this region served as a natural barrier against outside invaders and greatly slowed the spread of foreign ideas, such as Christianity and linguistic borrowing. Before the outlawing of religion in 1967, Albania’s population was 75% Muslim, 15% Orthodox Christian and 10% Roman Catholic. Eighty-five percent of Albanian Muslims followed Hanafi school of thought. The majority of urban dwellers were Muslim and most of central and northeast Albania was populated by Muslims. As the Eastern Roman Empire began to crumble away in the Balkans, Albania was invaded by the expanding Serbian State and by the Kingdom of Naples. The Serbs managed to gain minor footholds throughout the country while Naples was able to capture and control all of the coastal towns. After the death of the Serbian king Dushan in the mid 14th century, the Albanian chief Gjergj Balsha managed to set up an independent principality centered around the northern city of Shkoder. In 1385, Ghergj Balsha perished in a battle with the Ottomans. Following their victory over a combined force of Hungarians, Serbs, Bosnians and Wallachians on the banks of the Maritza River, Ottoman troops expanded their hold over large portions of the south-central Balkans. To read full article go to http://members.tripod.com/worldupdates/islamintheworld/id22.htm

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Question:

God , who was powerful enough to create the universe out of the nothingness of space by the Big Bang event many billions of years ago , is also powerful enough to suspend the laws of physics , which He created , or at least allowed to evolve within certain set rules , by means of miracles . God is indeed the eternal , with no beginning and no end , timeless , omnipotent , omniscient , perfect being who is the uncaused first cause of Aristotle [ see the Acts of the Apostles , chapter 17 : 16 - 34 ] . St. Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 3 : 2 that his brethren should pray for Christian evangelists to be saved from "unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith." So reason and faith do go together. One day the seas might be turned into large lakes . Some of the verses of Ezekiel , chapter 47 , say that the Dead Sea , an extremely salty lake , will one day be turned into a fresh water lake, with as many kinds of fish living in its waters as there are in the Mediterranean Sea. Jesus Christ , who was God Himself in the body of a man when He was on earth [ the Gospel of St. John 1 : 1 - 5 ] , once miraculously fed 5000 adult males , besides the women and children , on the shores of the large fresh water lake called the Sea of Galilee , also known as Lake Gennesaret or Lake Tiberias , and He also walked on the surface of Lake Galilee by means of a miracle [ Matthew 14 : 13 - 36 ] . If God wanted to , He could make whales live in large fresh water lakes with a never ending supply of food , because nothing is impossible with God [ see Mark 10 : 27 ] . Somewhere in the verses of Isaiah , chapter 11 , it is said that one day the lion will be turned into a harmless herbivore , and that children will play with poisonous snakes , and not be hurt by them . The Caspian Sea , a large salt lake that is about nine tenths the size of the state of California in area , has seals , porpoises , tortoises , and alligators living in its waters , although over the last few centuries they have nearly been hunted to extinction . The Caspian Sea was once connected to the Seven Seas in prehistoric times , although continental drift eventually enclosed the prehistoric Tethys Sea . Lake Baikal or Baykal , a large fresh water lake that is little bit more than three quarters the size of Switzerland in area , also has seals living in its waters . Lake Baikal is located far inland in Russian Siberia , and is connected to the distant Arctic Ocean by the Angara River , which was much wider in prehistoric times before continental plate movement or tectonics narrowed the river . Albrecht Ploum in his book called " Natural Mirrors of the Universe " [ Spiegelbilder des Universums ] , likened the shape of the human embryo to Pangaea , the prehistoric world super continent that existed 200 million years ago , before the individual continents split apart . Pangaea was surrounded by a world ocean called Panthalassa , much as the human embryo is surrounded in the watery womb , supplied with food , water , and oxygen by the umbilical cord . Although Adam was made in the image of God , so was Eve , although indirectly , since God made Eve out of one of the ribs of Adam . I personally believe in the Creation story of the Old Testament book of Genesis as a parable , not as literal facts of history [ see Matthew 13 : 10 - 17 , for an explanation by Jesus Christ for the purpose of parables ] . A literal interpretation of the Bible can sometimes lead to sin . For example , according to a literal interpretation of the Bible , the children of Adam and Eve in order to produce offspring would have been guilty of the sin of incest , as would the grandchildren of Noah . God warned Adam , and Adam presumably warned Eve , not to eat the fruit of forbidden knowledge , that is , the knowledge of what the difference between right and wrong is , and the knowledge of what true death is , i.e. , eternal damnation of the soul and body . The rest of the living things were all made good by God , and the animals did not lose their innocence by eating the fruit of forbidden knowledge [ see Genesis chapters 1 - 3 ] . The talking and cunning snake in the Garden of Eden was Satan , the fallen angel , in disguise [ see Revelation 12 : 7 - 9 ] . When animals do something violent , they do it in ignorance of the knowledge of what the difference between right and wrong is , and therefore in innocence , whereas when humans do something violent , they do it in knowledge , and therefore with a guilty conscience . Although eating both animals and plants is morally acceptable for humans , eating only plants is even better . In the Roman Catholic denomination of Christianity , the patron saint of nature and all living things is St. Francis of Assisi . Proverbs 12 : 10 says that " A righteous man regards the life of his animal , but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel ." Animals are neither to be tortured nor neglected , and they are to be killed as quickly and as painlessly as possible only for the sake of food and commercial items . Animals are not to be hunted to extinction . Revelation 11 : 18 says that God will destroy those who destroy the earth . Psalm 104 and Psalm 148 in the Old Testament have many uplifting verses praising the beauty of God’s creation , which , according to Genesis chapters 1 – 2 , God made all of it to be good .

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I personally believe in the Creation story of the Old Testament book of Genesis as a parable , not as literal facts of history [ see Matthew 13 : 10 - 17 , for an explanation by Jesus Christ for the purpose of parables ] . A literal interpretation of the Bible can sometimes lead to sin . For example , according to a literal interpretation of the Bible , the children of Adam and Eve in order to produce offspring would have been guilty of the sin of incest , as would the grandchildren of Noah .

"No matter how you slice it–atheistic evolution, theistic evolution, or special creation–humans come from a common ancestor and a small, closely related gene pool that diversified with time."{1} What alternative would you suggest? {1} http://css.catholicexchange.com/truthtract.asp?qid=522

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Question:

Mr.McMillan, if you would come to the Savior, He would deliver you

from this obsession. Is Andrews "obsession" with Mr McMillan, an example of this deliverance?

Response:

Mr.McMillan, if you would come to the Savior, He would deliver you from this obsession. Is Andrews "obsession" with Mr McMillan, an example of this deliverance?

The Savior is the only One who can effectively help Mr.McMillan. We do not show kindness to him by encouraging him on in his unholy obsession.

Response:

Mr.McMillan, if you would come to the Savior, He would deliver you from this obsession.

Mr. Vatican antichrist member of Opus Dei pretending to be Adventist: It is not normal nor Christian behavior for you to hate and attack us for exposing someone who condemned all non-Catholics to persecution and death.  You claim to be Adventist.  We don’t care what your lying damned lips say.  YOU ARE CATHOLIC!! Now listen to this unscrupulous Jesuit when he attacked Brother Ted for exposing those who condemned all non-Catholics: Dear Ted, It is most obvious from your frequent postings that you are a very troubled and unhappy person. I know that it is easy and natural for others to judge you not knowing the severe childhood trauma you may have experienced coupled with a dysfunctional home from your early days until now. You must have experienced great pain. My comment: Friends, you need to know what is an insult and you need to know hatred at a glance!  Let this Jesuit priestcraft written by Andrew be reworded to President Bush and his frequent comments and attempts against Osama Bin Laden. To Jesuit Andrew: From here you were saying that anyone who posts frequently needs Christ, has severe childhood trauma and a dysfunctional home. You have been asked how you can explain this.  You have also been asked this: HOW DID YOU CONFIRM OR PROVE THAT BROTHER TED HAD SEVERE CHILDHOOD TRAUMA AND A DYSFUNCTIONAL HOME JUST BECAUSE SOME SUPER-DAMNED PERSON WHO KEEPS THE JESUIT OATH HATES HIM? We then see that your demon souls is too tortured to answer, so you keep posting your accusations, insults and slanders according to the Jesuit Oath. Nw it is time for Andrew to blaspheme the name of the Lord by condemning things he freely does using the scriptures.  Look above and see the judgments this unscrupulous Jesuit has laid out upon me.  Now look at the quotes he is COMPLETELY immuned to:    "For the Father judgeth no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son"                                                        John 5:22 "since the Father "hath committed all judgment unto the Son," whoever presumes to judge the motives of others is again usurping the prerogative of the Son of God.

Dear stupid psychiatric patient of Joseph Meehan: LOOK AT HOW YOU HAVE JUDGED JUST ABOVE AND IN ALL YOUR POSTS BECAUSE SUPER-TERRORISTS AND UNSCRUPULOUS KILLERS WERE EXPOSED! These would-be judges and critics are placing themselves on the side of ANTICHRIST, "who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."                                                  2 Thessalonians 2:4.

Jesuits have no problem describing themselves when they are on the attack for God’s people! The most immense issues where Seeber was condening all liberty and the Constitution never bothers these like monsters.  Now Andrew comes back again to the irresistible job of protecting super-terrorists and the super-terrorist factory of the ages! Mount of Blessing  p.125 E.G.White Revelation 18 is a message for God’s people to come out of Babylon. But none will come out of anywhere as the result of condemnation and personal attack.

Read Andrew’s personal attacks and go through the messages he has FREQUENTLY posted around his dysfunctional home! Each word and each more teaching brings more time in the fire.  Christ told us Matt. 12:37  For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Now look at the words of the Jesuit: Those not using    -Christ’s methods-   are controlled by the dark power of the antichrist. Andrew

In His Grace, Susan Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com – Accounts Starting At $6.95 – http://www.uncensored-news.com                <<<<<<<   The Worlds Uncensored News Source   <<<<<<<<

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This is the tenth reason why Shan must flame you. Shan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr.McMillan, if you would come to the Savior, He would deliver you from this obsession. Mr. Vatican antichrist member of Opus Dei pretending to be Adventist: It is not normal nor Christian behavior for you to hate and attack us for exposing someone who condemned all non-Catholics to persecution and death.  You claim to be Adventist.  We don’t care what your lying damned lips say.  YOU ARE CATHOLIC!! Now listen to this unscrupulous Jesuit when he attacked Brother Ted for exposing those who condemned all non-Catholics: Dear Ted, It is most obvious from your frequent postings that you are a very troubled and unhappy person. I know that it is easy and natural for others to judge you not knowing the severe childhood trauma you may have experienced coupled with a dysfunctional home from your early days until now. You must have experienced great pain. My comment: Friends, you need to know what is an insult and you need to know hatred at a glance!  Let this Jesuit priestcraft written by Andrew be reworded to President Bush and his frequent comments and attempts against Osama Bin Laden. To Jesuit Andrew: From here you were saying that anyone who posts frequently needs Christ, has severe childhood trauma and a dysfunctional home. You have been asked how you can explain this.  You have also been asked this: HOW DID YOU CONFIRM OR PROVE THAT BROTHER TED HAD SEVERE CHILDHOOD TRAUMA AND A DYSFUNCTIONAL HOME JUST BECAUSE SOME SUPER-DAMNED PERSON WHO KEEPS THE JESUIT OATH HATES HIM? We then see that your demon souls is too tortured to answer, so you keep posting your accusations, insults and slanders according to the Jesuit Oath. Nw it is time for Andrew to blaspheme the name of the Lord by condemning things he freely does using the scriptures.  Look above and see the judgments this unscrupulous Jesuit has laid out upon me.  Now look at the quotes he is COMPLETELY immuned to:    "For the Father judgeth no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son"                                                        John 5:22 "since the Father "hath committed all judgment unto the Son," whoever presumes to judge the motives of others is again usurping the prerogative of the Son of God. Dear stupid psychiatric patient of Joseph Meehan: LOOK AT HOW YOU HAVE JUDGED JUST ABOVE AND IN ALL YOUR POSTS BECAUSE SUPER-TERRORISTS AND UNSCRUPULOUS KILLERS WERE EXPOSED! These would-be judges and critics are placing themselves on the side of ANTICHRIST, "who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."                                                  2 Thessalonians 2:4. Jesuits have no problem describing themselves when they are on the attack for God’s people! The most immense issues where Seeber was condening all liberty and the Constitution never bothers these like monsters.  Now Andrew comes back again to the irresistible job of protecting super-terrorists and the super-terrorist factory of the ages! Mount of Blessing  p.125 E.G.White Revelation 18 is a message for God’s people to come out of Babylon. But none will come out of anywhere as the result of condemnation and personal attack. Read Andrew’s personal attacks and go through the messages he has FREQUENTLY posted around his dysfunctional home! Each word and each more teaching brings more time in the fire.  Christ told us Matt. 12:37  For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Now look at the words of the Jesuit: Those not using    -Christ’s methods-   are controlled by the dark power of the antichrist. Andrew In His Grace, Susan Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com – Accounts Starting At $6.95 – http://www.uncensored-news.com                <<<<<<<   The Worlds Uncensored News Source   <<<<<<<<

Response:

Mr.McMillan, if you would come to the Savior, He would deliver you from this obsession.

Response:

36.  Lamarr Edwards tries to show me is obsessed with Ted Seeber despite the fact that other super-terrorists move heaven and earth to defend the man.  I compare his accusation of me to President Bush’s obsession with Osama Bin Laden over an incident that happened before Seeber condemned all non-Catholics to extermination: http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&start=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UT… This is the only article in this thread View: Original Format Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.adventist, alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, tnn.religion.catholic The following shows Lamarr Edwards in his constant talent of condemning himself.  He claims that I have a terrible obsession with exposing Ted Seeber. If you would remember, this was the same point of attack Nicholas II waged against Brother Ted and myself.  Nicholas II first started claiming that Brother Ted hated Cindy.  But then he showed his true colors when he showed he was irritated that Brother Ted exposed Ted Seeber.  Now, since Cindy has apologize to brother Ted and admitted that she was blind, Nicholas II is nowhere to be found.  But his first premise was what he claimed was Brother Ted’s malice against Cindy, to be proven his terrible obsession to also protect Ted Seeber. Here now is Lamarr Edwards doing what he knows best: KEEPING THE JESUIT OATH!! Doug –  It has made many roundabout admissions of posession. Do demons sleep and marry?

Do Protestants defend super-killers who condemn all non-Catholics to death?  Do Christians preach against personal attacks and accusing and then go right into doing it like Lamarr Edwards? If so, it is pitifully onvious that this ones is married to Ted Seeber, and cannot sleep because of him.

GOOD because I don’t mind!  I haven’t said that the man is mentally ill, nor that he needed to be in the killfile ignored list.  I’m like President George Bush, over an infinitely worst killer! It is driven, compelled, consumed, and obsessed with Seeber,

The name-caller here is driven, compelled, consumed and obsessed with myself and Brother Ted McMillan.  I have offered to compare the crimes that make us each obsessed.  This demon keeper of the Jesuit Oath refuses to! He told us Ted Seeber is just a guy and just said mere words when he condemned all non-Catholics to persecution and death.  HE HAS YET TO ANSWER WHY THE WORDS OF THIS GIRL CAUSES HIM TO KEEP THE JESUIT OATH AND DISOBEY EVERY PRINCIPLE OF CONDUCT HE CLAIMS WE HAVE TO ACCEPT!! for over a year it has been unable to post anything without Seebers name in it.

The super-killer is well defended.  Osama Bin Laden is not in civilized societies.  What is President Bush’s problem again???  What is yours why you have skill in evading and diverting from questions? It’s in the Jesuit Oath, right? Seeber controls its thoughts deeds and words, it cannot think of anything but Seeber.

WHAT A THING TO SAY ABOUT PRESIDENT BUSH BASED UPON THE LIES OF A SUPER-DAMNED DESPOT KEEPER OF THE JESUIT OATH!! AND WHAT KEEPS YOU INFATUATED WITH ME??  How many posts do you write about anything else? SORRY DEMON!!  SUPER-TERRORIST KILLERS ARE GOING TO BE EXPOSED!! ULTIMATELY, EVEN YOU WILL BE FOUND OUT EVEN IF IT IS BY THE HANDS OF GOD ALONE!! It loves/ hates Seeber to the point that Ted Seeber is all it thinks about.

So, don’t tell me:  PRESIDENT BUSH NEEDS A PSYCHIATRIST!! BUT YOU PROTECT TED SEEBER!!  THE MAN CONDEMNED ALL NON-CATHOLICS TO PERSECUTION AND DEATH, THEN SINCE THE MAN IS EXPOSED AND SELF-CONDEMNED ALL YOU THINK ABOUT IS TED MCMILLAN AND ME!!  WHAT ELSE DO YOU POST ABOUT THAT HAS PRECEDENCE OVER THE PEOPLE YOU CONDEMN FOR THE SAME REASON IN YOUR CONSTANT REVERENCE FOR THE JESUIT OATH?? DAMNED LAMARR… DO YOU POST ABOUT CHRIST MORE THAN YOU POST AGAINST US?? It has become a cyber stalker, with poor Ted Seeber as the object of its passion.

Unlike all the non-Catholics he has condemned and the history of what happened to non-Catholics BY PEOPLE WHO ALWAYS HAD TED SEEBER’S VIEWS!! Whew!  What a devilish little devil sue/ted/trevor/wormwood is ! LE

THIS FIXATION ON ME AND BROTHER TED ENABLES THIS FOLLOWER OF THE JESUIT OATH TO NAME-CALL, ACCUSE, CONDEMN AND THEN PREACH AGAINST ALL THESE THINGS. AN OBSESSION THAT CAUSES A MAN TO EVACUATE ALL HIS PRINCIPLES IS AN OBSESSION INDEED!!! In His Grace, Lamarr excuses the words of Ted Seeber, telling us it doesn’t matter what people say: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Seeber+kill+group:alt.religion.chri… View: Complete Thread (82 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.adventist Susie –  How is "brother Ted" ?  Is he with you as you use your keyboard, or do you metaphysically banish him while you are in charge of his body ? Where do you go, when he comes back? WHO CARES what Seeber said ? He is not an official spokesman, nor definer of doctrine for Catholicism. Protestants have said things like, "the only good indian, is a dead indian", "kill’em all and let God sort’em out" and other choice nuggets along the same lines. These folks did not represent Protestantism either. Are you so abjectly stupid that you can’t figure out that anyone can say anything they want, and what they say is between they and God ? If sodam insane plays golf, does that mean that all of us who play golf are butchers and killers? Did your parents sue the doctor that dropped you on your head when you were born ?  Was he a Catholic BTW? LE He tries to show that Ted Seeber’s words of genocide are just words and that Seeber has the right to say them under the Constitution, but claims that I am a demon for my words and that even courts would see it that way: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22guarantees+that+right%22+group:… View: Complete Thread (9 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.adventist Cindy –  Seeber apparently said things that I disagree with. Thousands do, every day. Free speech, as granted by the first amendment to the constitution guarantees that right to everyone, including seeber and wormwood. Our system of government is criticized daily, in a plethora of ways. Christianity is attacked and ridiculed every day.  ( since you have been bird dogging my posts in other groups, you have seen how I have defended Christianity in running discussions with many people at one time, in sometimes brutal exchanges) These people have a RIGHT to their opinions. Wormwoods pathological and constant harping about seeber is his right, but to what purpose ? I object strongly to his, and your efforts to attack Catholicism, and by your methods, offend Catholics,and make them less likely to hear any other views of what they believe. Do you have the legal right to do so, you bet. Do I have the legal right to say it is inane and conterproductive and harmful to the Adventist and Protestant messages ?  Yes. Slander and libel in the legal sense must be untrue, and the entry into litigation must be driven by a complantant. Is Seeber a terrorist ?  Has he used violence to further a political or religious viewpoint ? I don’t think so.  So why call him one ? Many, Many say worse things on TV than he has, but their WORDS are protected by the constitution. Is teddy mac a demon ? I say yes.  Does he want to litigate the matter ?, lets go to court. I am confident that once I get him on the witness stand, no jury would condemn me for using the term. Everyone can say what they choose, when it comes to accusing someone of specific acts or untrue words, the courts are the official arbiters. You and wormwood can call amyone, anything you want. The persons who are the receiptiens of your venom can, as they choose, respond. I have the right to an opinion of what you say, and I will never hesitate to express it. LE I asked whether or not he and his Vatican brothers and sisters went nuts claiming that we don’t allow others to disagree with us.  After that, I asked how much right does Seeber give to non-Catholics since he condemned them to death just for not being Catholic.  He naturally refused to answer: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22Anti-Protestant+behavior%22+gro… View: Complete Thread (6 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.adventist, alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, tnn.religion.catholic Sue 2 –  The branch davidians were not Seventh Day Adventists, and neither is ted/susan/trevor/wormwood, keep that clearly in mind. None of them were or are Seventh Day Adventists. LE

What proof have you of these charges? Is Paul Tooley, the man who defended Ted Seeber who attacked liberty, the American Constitution and then condemned all … read more »

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Question:

Top Post: That is soo Cool Julia and Thanks for sharing your childrens thoughts. They are truly very special humans. Windforest

Briony’s back! I hope she had a great time in Japan. Rupa Julia answered: She had a brilliant time. She is now determined to get a career that allows her to live and work over there. It has been a sensitive point with some Asian adoptees that the term "banana" has sometimes been used by other Asians to describe them (yellow on the outside but white on the inside). My blonde, blue-eyed daughter is quite proud that in Japan she was called an "egg" by several people – white on the outside but yellow on the inside! Julia  

Response:

Top Post: That is soo Cool Julia and Thanks for sharing your childrens thoughts. They are truly very special humans. Windforest

Thanks  I struck gold with each one of them.  Though I acknowledge I’m biased, they sure are a nice bunch of kids.   Julia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Briony’s back! I hope she had a great time in Japan. Rupa Julia answered: She had a brilliant time. She is now determined to get a career that allows her to live and work over there. It has been a sensitive point with some Asian adoptees that the term "banana" has sometimes been used by other Asians to describe them (yellow on the outside but white on the inside). My blonde, blue-eyed daughter is quite proud that in Japan she was called an "egg" by several people – white on the outside but yellow on the inside! Julia  

Response:

Interesting comments from Briony (17 yr old bio daughter)…

Briony’s back! I hope she had a great time in Japan. Rupa

Response:

Interesting comments from Briony (17 yr old bio daughter)… Briony’s back! I hope she had a great time in Japan. Rupa

She had a brilliant time.  She is now determined to get a career that allows her to live and work over there. It has been a sensitive point with some Asian adoptees that the term "banana" has sometimes been used by other Asians to describe them (yellow on the outside but white on the inside).  My blonde, blue-eyed daughter is quite proud that in Japan she was called an "egg" by several people – white on the outside but yellow on the inside! Julia

Response:

Top: Lovely post, Julia. Helen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find myself comparing her circumstances to those of my teens and what I perceive my son’s to be today.  I was one of those whites in a largely Roman Catholic community with one or two black families and a small handful Korean adoptees.  It gives me some emotional perspective on what I know had to have been a hard situation.   My son has the advantage of living in a much more diverse community, but I know that he is beginning to struggle with the reality of race.  I’m interested in seeing where Sarah went and where my son goes with that.  That’s always been a daunting issue for me.  Sarah’s story may give me some emotional perspective on that as well. She quoted the writer Anatole Broyard in regards to her own adoption experience.  "Anyone who saw me with my parents already knew too much about me".  It really made me sit and think. That line hit me hard, too, for a couple of reasons. You know, I’m not sure if we’ve ever had any transracial adoptees discuss this here.  I mean how they felt about it.  All the adoptees connected through the NG by their parents (Linda, Duckster, Roby, etc) are small.  Maybe Julia can talk to her kids and share. I’m a little ashamed to say that this is a facet of adoption I never really gave much thought to. It can be a really big thing for transracial adoptees, and particularly in our family as race makes adoption obvious not only between parents and kids but also between my kids as they are white, Indian, Chinese and Korean.  It irritates my daughter that people assume her brother is her boyfriend, as they are good mates who spend a fair bit of time together and they’re both 17. We had a book published a couple of years ago which told the stories of the first generation of intercountry adoptees in Oz (our intercountry adoptions really started with the Vietnam war, and Korean adoptions didn’t get going here until the 1980s) and those who struggled most with their sense of identity and self-esteem seemed to be the adoptees raised in rural all-white areas, without contact with people from their birth cultures or with other adoptees.  It was a strong theme that came out of their combined experiences and bore out what I’d already believed. I’ll ask my sons for their input when they wake up (Sat morning here, which means I’m unlikely to see my sons before lunchtime but I’ve copied below some of my thoughts taken from one of the presentations I give every six months to PAPs attending our compulsory adoption seminar prior to their adoption applications being accepted.  I co-present the seminars alongside our govt adoption unit staff…  It doesn’t really get into the kids feelings on racial difference but rather trying to get PAPs to think outside their own racial comfort zone. "…I believe that when we choose to build our families through intercountry adoption we become duty-bound to make that experience as positive as possible for our children. Feeling good about themselves, and comfortable in their identity, doesn’t happen by accident… So what makes the difference?  How do you raise a child who looks nothing like you?  A child who everyone knows is not yours by birth? A child who, unlike members of other minority groups, is confronted by difference every evening when the family sits down to share dinner?  I made a decision on how I intended to do it many years ago and my feelings were best summed up in the words of Barbara Randolph, an American mother of Korean-born children.  She said "My children wear Korea in their faces every day of their lives, and I think they should wear it in the hearts." I wanted my children to wear their birth countries in their hearts also, so we made some conscious decisions as parents. We sought out and made friends in their ethnic communities in Australia and overseas.  We joined cultural societies that reflected our children’s heritage. We sought out language classes and even our family diet changed. We also decided we’d bring our children back to visit their birth countries as they were growing up. My 14 year old son has had two trips back to Korea and my oldest son and I spent a month touring India. I believe the only way to help children feel comfortable with difference is to deal with it openly, and being willing to sometimes put myself in awkward or uncomfortable situations.  It does feel odd to be the only white person in a Hindu temple and being under intense scrutiny, but there are many situations daily in which my children are the only non-white people.  My youngest daughter was 5 years old when she said to me "At preschool I am the only brown person, but at the temple you’re the only white person."  I am very pleased that her experiences are not just "I am the only brown person".  She knows there are some places where her difference is obvious, but there are also places we go where it is my difference that stands out, while she blends in with ease. Open acknowledgment and acceptance of difference means we talk comfortably with our children about adoption, about the challenges they face and their feelings towards their birth families.  Sometimes these conversations are difficult but if my children didn’t feel that adoption was an open topic, they would still experience the same feelings and have the same questions.  The only difference would be that the children would keep their feelings and questions secret…" Julia

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find myself comparing her circumstances to those of my teens and what I perceive my son’s to be today.  I was one of those whites in a largely Roman Catholic community with one or two black families and a small handful Korean adoptees.  It gives me some emotional perspective on what I know had to have been a hard situation.   My son has the advantage of living in a much more diverse community, but I know that he is beginning to struggle with the reality of race.  I’m interested in seeing where Sarah went and where my son goes with that.  That’s always been a daunting issue for me.  Sarah’s story may give me some emotional perspective on that as well. She quoted the writer Anatole Broyard in regards to her own adoption experience.  "Anyone who saw me with my parents already knew too much about me".  It really made me sit and think. That line hit me hard, too, for a couple of reasons. You know, I’m not sure if we’ve ever had any transracial adoptees discuss this here.  I mean how they felt about it.  All the adoptees connected through the NG by their parents (Linda, Duckster, Roby, etc) are small.  Maybe Julia can talk to her kids and share. I’m a little ashamed to say that this is a facet of adoption I never really gave much thought to.

We lived in a very rural area, childless, then suddenly appearing with an eight and a half month old *lump* of a brown-haired baby boy, then an 11.5 month white-haired boy, then a two-year old red-headed girl and a 2.5 year old brunette, you can just imagine that *everyone "already knew too much about" them! They were all Irish and *white*, but each one is VERY different from each other and from us. Helen

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find myself comparing her circumstances to those of my teens and what I perceive my son’s to be today.  I was one of those whites in a largely Roman Catholic community with one or two black families and a small handful Korean adoptees.  It gives me some emotional perspective on what I know had to have been a hard situation.   My son has the advantage of living in a much more diverse community, but I know that he is beginning to struggle with the reality of race.  I’m interested in seeing where Sarah went and where my son goes with that.  That’s always been a daunting issue for me.  Sarah’s story may give me some emotional perspective on that as well. She quoted the writer Anatole Broyard in regards to her own adoption experience.  "Anyone who saw me with my parents already knew too much about me".  It really made me sit and think. That line hit me hard, too, for a couple of reasons. I shared it on an AOL board, where they weren’t busy reading the book, and got quite a few responses about the writer quoted…about how he wasn’t adopted…but a lot "lighter" than his parents.  The only person who actually mulled on the statement as an adoptee, as I did, was Kim, and I appreciate it. I’ll look forward to it.  Jane, on the other hand, won’t appreciate the bedside lamp on all night. J. hmph.  typical man Well, yeah.  She prefers to have me reading in bed rather than elsewhere in the house.  Go figure.

LOL! Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – J. Reply to jmhjmdATaolDOTcom

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(Julia) writes: I find myself comparing her circumstances to those of my teens and what I perceive my son’s to be today.  I was one of those whites in a largely Roman Catholic community with one or two black families and a small handful Korean adoptees.  It gives me some emotional perspective on what I know had to have been a hard situation.   My son has the advantage of living in a much more diverse community, but I know that he is beginning to struggle with the reality of race.  I’m interested in seeing where Sarah went and where my son goes with that.  That’s always been a daunting issue for me.  Sarah’s story may give me some emotional perspective on that as well. She quoted the writer Anatole Broyard in regards to her own adoption experience.  "Anyone who saw me with my parents already knew too much about me".  It really made me sit and think. That line hit me hard, too, for a couple of reasons. You know, I’m not sure if we’ve ever had any transracial adoptees discuss this here.  I mean how they felt about it.  All the adoptees connected through the NG by their parents (Linda, Duckster, Roby, etc) are small.  Maybe Julia can talk to her kids and share. I’m a little ashamed to say that this is a facet of adoption I never really gave much thought to. It can be a really big thing for transracial adoptees, and particularly in our family as race makes adoption obvious not only between parents and kids but also between my kids as they are white, Indian, Chinese and Korean.  It irritates my daughter that people assume her brother is her boyfriend, as they are good mates who spend a fair bit of time together and they’re both 17.   We had a book published a couple of years ago which told the stories of the first generation of intercountry adoptees in Oz (our intercountry adoptions really started with the Vietnam war, and Korean adoptions didn’t get going here until the 1980s) and those who struggled most with their sense of identity and self-esteem seemed to be the adoptees raised in rural all-white areas, without contact with people from their birth cultures or with other adoptees.  It was a strong theme that came out of their combined experiences and bore out what I’d already believed. I’ll ask my sons for their input when they wake up (Sat morning here, which means I’m unlikely to see my sons before lunchtime but I’ve copied below some of my thoughts taken from one of the presentations I give every six months to PAPs attending our compulsory adoption seminar prior to their adoption applications being accepted.  I co-present the seminars alongside our govt adoption unit staff…  It doesn’t really get into the kids feelings on racial difference but rather trying to get PAPs to think outside their own racial comfort zone. "…I believe that when we choose to build our families through intercountry adoption we become duty-bound to make that experience as positive as possible for our children. Feeling good about themselves, and comfortable in their identity, doesn’t happen by accident… So what makes the difference?  How do you raise a child who looks nothing like you?  A child who everyone knows is not yours by birth? A child who, unlike members of other minority groups, is confronted by difference every evening when the family sits down to share dinner?  I made a decision on how I intended to do it many years ago and my feelings were best summed up in the words of Barbara Randolph, an American mother of Korean-born children.  She said "My children wear Korea in their faces every day of their lives, and I think they should wear it in the hearts." I wanted my children to wear their birth countries in their hearts also, so we made some conscious decisions as parents. We sought out and made friends in their ethnic communities in Australia and overseas.  We joined cultural societies that reflected our children’s heritage. We sought out language classes and even our family diet changed. We also decided we’d bring our children back to visit their birth countries as they were growing up. My 14 year old son has had two trips back to Korea and my oldest son and I spent a month touring India. I believe the only way to help children feel comfortable with difference is to deal with it openly, and being willing to sometimes put myself in awkward or uncomfortable situations.  It does feel odd to be the only white person in a Hindu temple and being under intense scrutiny, but there are many situations daily in which my children are the only non-white people.  My youngest daughter was 5 years old when she said to me "At preschool I am the only brown person, but at the temple you’re the only white person."  I am very pleased that her experiences are not just "I am the only brown person".  She knows there are some places where her difference is obvious, but there are also places we go where it is my difference that stands out, while she blends in with ease. Open acknowledgment and acceptance of difference means we talk comfortably with our children about adoption, about the challenges they face and their feelings towards their birth families.  Sometimes these conversations are difficult but if my children didn’t feel that adoption was an open topic, they would still experience the same feelings and have the same questions.  The only difference would be that the children would keep their feelings and questions secret…" Julia

Beautifully said, Julia.   J. Reply to jmhjmdATaolDOTcom

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find myself comparing her circumstances to those of my teens and what I perceive my son’s to be today.  I was one of those whites in a largely Roman Catholic community with one or two black families and a small handful Korean adoptees.  It gives me some emotional perspective on what I know had to have been a hard situation.   My son has the advantage of living in a much more diverse community, but I know that he is beginning to struggle with the reality of race.  I’m interested in seeing where Sarah went and where my son goes with that.  That’s always been a daunting issue for me.  Sarah’s story may give me some emotional perspective on that as well. She quoted the writer Anatole Broyard in regards to her own adoption experience.  "Anyone who saw me with my parents already knew too much about me".  It really made me sit and think. That line hit me hard, too, for a couple of reasons. You know, I’m not sure if we’ve ever had any transracial adoptees discuss this here.  I mean how they felt about it.  All the adoptees connected through the NG by their parents (Linda, Duckster, Roby, etc) are small.  Maybe Julia can talk to her kids and share. I’m a little ashamed to say that this is a facet of adoption I never really gave much thought to.

Okay, kids are semi-conscious now so I can pass on their comments after I read them the above post and they munch through breakfast. Madhu says "It’s no big deal.  I don’t have a problem with it.  I like seeing people’s reactions when they figure out our family relationships as it can be funny, and I don’t really notice that people stare at us.  I have to keep telling the same story over and over though and that gets annoying." Interesting comments from Briony (17 yr old bio daughter)…  "People often ask me the questions.  Maybe they think it is too personal to ask Madhu.  It’s annoying sometimes because I don’t want to be rude but I don’t want his life to be on public display either.  One teacher in high school made me explain to the whole class about me and Madhu – it didn’t bother me at the time but now it irritates me to think about her asking me to do that." Haden (14 yr old Korean son) "I don’t know … it just doesn’t bother me.  I don’t really notice when people stare and I don’t care about answering their questions but when I have to explain things to like 200 people again and again I get tired of it.  There are other Asian people in my school so it’s not like I’m the only one.  I think it makes a difference where you grow up too.  If we lived in (nearby rural towns) it would be really different to how it is here." Julia

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find myself comparing her circumstances to those of my teens and what I perceive my son’s to be today.  I was one of those whites in a largely Roman Catholic community with one or two black families and a small handful Korean adoptees.  It gives me some emotional perspective on what I know had to have been a hard situation.   My son has the advantage of living in a much more diverse community, but I know that he is beginning to struggle with the reality of race.  I’m interested in seeing where Sarah went and where my son goes with that.  That’s always been a daunting issue for me.  Sarah’s story may give me some emotional perspective on that as well. She quoted the writer Anatole Broyard in regards to her own adoption experience.  "Anyone who saw me with my parents already knew too much about me".  It really made me sit and think. That line hit me hard, too, for a couple of reasons. You know, I’m not sure if we’ve ever had any transracial adoptees discuss this here.  I mean how they felt about it.  All the adoptees connected through the NG by their parents (Linda, Duckster, Roby, etc) are small.  Maybe Julia can talk to her kids and share. I’m a little ashamed to say that this is a facet of adoption I never really gave much thought to.

It can be a really big thing for transracial adoptees, and particularly in our family as race makes adoption obvious not only between parents and kids but also between my kids as they are white, Indian, Chinese and Korean.  It irritates my daughter that people assume her brother is her boyfriend, as they are good mates who spend a fair bit of time together and they’re both 17.   We had a book published a couple of years ago which told the stories of the first generation of intercountry adoptees in Oz (our intercountry adoptions really started with the Vietnam war, and Korean adoptions didn’t get going here until the 1980s) and those who struggled most with their sense of identity and self-esteem seemed to be the adoptees raised in rural all-white areas, without contact with people from their birth cultures or with other adoptees.  It was a strong theme that came out of their combined experiences and bore out what I’d already believed. I’ll ask my sons for their input when they wake up (Sat morning here, which means I’m unlikely to see my sons before lunchtime but I’ve copied below some of my thoughts taken from one of the presentations I give every six months to PAPs attending our compulsory adoption seminar prior to their adoption applications being accepted.  I co-present the seminars alongside our govt adoption unit staff…  It doesn’t really get into the kids feelings on racial difference but rather trying to get PAPs to think outside their own racial comfort zone. "…I believe that when we choose to build our families through intercountry adoption we become duty-bound to make that experience as positive as possible for our children. Feeling good about themselves, and comfortable in their identity, doesn’t happen by accident… So what makes the difference?  How do you raise a child who looks nothing like you?  A child who everyone knows is not yours by birth? A child who, unlike members of other minority groups, is confronted by difference every evening when the family sits down to share dinner?  I made a decision on how I intended to do it many years ago and my feelings were best summed up in the words of Barbara Randolph, an American mother of Korean-born children.  She said "My children wear Korea in their faces every day of their lives, and I think they should wear it in the hearts." I wanted my children to wear their birth countries in their hearts also, so we made some conscious decisions as parents. We sought out and made friends in their ethnic communities in Australia and overseas.  We joined cultural societies that reflected our children’s heritage. We sought out language classes and even our family diet changed. We also decided we’d bring our children back to visit their birth countries as they were growing up. My 14 year old son has had two trips back to Korea and my oldest son and I spent a month touring India. I believe the only way to help children feel comfortable with difference is to deal with it openly, and being willing to sometimes put myself in awkward or uncomfortable situations.  It does feel odd to be the only white person in a Hindu temple and being under intense scrutiny, but there are many situations daily in which my children are the only non-white people.  My youngest daughter was 5 years old when she said to me "At preschool I am the only brown person, but at the temple you’re the only white person."  I am very pleased that her experiences are not just "I am the only brown person".  She knows there are some places where her difference is obvious, but there are also places we go where it is my difference that stands out, while she blends in with ease. Open acknowledgment and acceptance of difference means we talk comfortably with our children about adoption, about the challenges they face and their feelings towards their birth families.  Sometimes these conversations are difficult but if my children didn’t feel that adoption was an open topic, they would still experience the same feelings and have the same questions.  The only difference would be that the children would keep their feelings and questions secret…" Julia

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find myself comparing her circumstances to those of my teens and what I perceive my son’s to be today.  I was one of those whites in a largely Roman Catholic community with one or two black families and a small handful Korean adoptees.  It gives me some emotional perspective on what I know had to have been a hard situation.   My son has the advantage of living in a much more diverse community, but I know that he is beginning to struggle with the reality of race.  I’m interested in seeing where Sarah went and where my son goes with that.  That’s always been a daunting issue for me.  Sarah’s story may give me some emotional perspective on that as well. She quoted the writer Anatole Broyard in regards to her own adoption experience.  "Anyone who saw me with my parents already knew too much about me".  It really made me sit and think.

That line hit me hard, too, for a couple of reasons. I shared it on an AOL board, where they weren’t busy reading the book, and got quite a few responses about the writer quoted…about how he wasn’t adopted…but a lot "lighter" than his parents.  The only person who actually mulled on the statement as an adoptee, as I did, was Kim, and I appreciate it. I’ll look forward to it.  Jane, on the other hand, won’t appreciate the bedside lamp on all night. J. hmph.  typical man

Well, yeah.  She prefers to have me reading in bed rather than elsewhere in the house.  Go figure. J. Reply to jmhjmdATaolDOTcom

Response:

She prefers to have me reading in bed rather than elsewhere in the house.  Go figure.

At least she knows where you are nights  :-) steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find myself comparing her circumstances to those of my teens and what I perceive my son’s to be today.  I was one of those whites in a largely Roman Catholic community with one or two black families and a small handful Korean adoptees.  It gives me some emotional perspective on what I know had to have been a hard situation.   My son has the advantage of living in a much more diverse community, but I know that he is beginning to struggle with the reality of race.  I’m interested in seeing where Sarah went and where my son goes with that.  That’s always been a daunting issue for me.  Sarah’s story may give me some emotional perspective on that as well. She quoted the writer Anatole Broyard in regards to her own adoption experience.  "Anyone who saw me with my parents already knew too much about me".  It really made me sit and think. That line hit me hard, too, for a couple of reasons.

You know, I’m not sure if we’ve ever had any transracial adoptees discuss this here.  I mean how they felt about it.  All the adoptees connected through the NG by their parents (Linda, Duckster, Roby, etc) are small.  Maybe Julia can talk to her kids and share. I’m a little ashamed to say that this is a facet of adoption I never really gave much thought to.

Response:

I find myself comparing her circumstances to those of my teens and what I perceive my son’s to be today.  I was one of those whites in a largely Roman Catholic community with one or two black families and a small handful Korean adoptees.  It gives me some emotional perspective on what I know had to have been a hard situation.   My son has the advantage of living in a much more diverse community, but I know that he is beginning to struggle with the reality of race.  I’m interested in seeing where Sarah went and where my son goes with that.  That’s always been a daunting issue for me.  Sarah’s story may give me some emotional perspective on that as well.

She quoted the writer Anatole Broyard in regards to her own adoption experience.  "Anyone who saw me with my parents already knew too much about me".  It really made me sit and think. I shared it on an AOL board, where they weren’t busy reading the book, and got quite a few responses about the writer quoted…about how he wasn’t adopted…but a lot "lighter" than his parents.  The only person who actually mulled on the statement as an adoptee, as I did, was Kim, and I appreciate it. I’ll look forward to it.  Jane, on the other hand, won’t appreciate the bedside lamp on all night. J.

hmph.  typical man – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Reply to jmhjmdATaolDOTcom

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Started reading it last night, after finishing John Sandford’s latest Prey novel and found it slow going. ( I should know better than to eat dessert first.) Brilliant way to open, though.  The image of a kilt-wearing African-American girl looking for the family tartan in a shop in Scotland and her reaction to the Nigerian group give you a good perspective on both where she’s coming from and where she’s going. J. I don’t want to get too specific (don’t know where you’re at in the book, or who else is reading it). I guess it’s the way the author writes, which I really enjoyed (I also enjoy John Sandford, BTW, and read his latest Prey book last week!  LOL).  To me, she’s not the type of writer where you can race through page by page.  I found myself having to put the book down every chapter or few pages, just to savor it (cry a couple of times), and think about it.  Could be because we were born and adopted in the same year. As a caucasion adoptee, I had trouble identifying with her issues about race, but in some ways, to me, she skillfully integrated them with her issues as an adoptee, so I was equally affected emotionally.  I’m not sure how you, as a dad, will see it.  Interested to hear your views. I don’t think I’ll give much of the story away to say that there was something that I’ve never heard of before, and wondered if any one else had? When she was adopted (in 1967), the agency told her parents that transracial adoption was illegal in some states, especially the southern ones.  They advised her parents not to relocate there. The author says that some of these laws were in effect until 1970.  gak Let me just say, J, that the beginning might be awfully introspective, but it really heats up past the middle.  You couldn’t find this in fiction. After that, I couldn’t sit and savor the pages, I had to race through to find out what was happening.  Hubby laughs and said to say that every 10 minutes, I was saying, "No WAY!!"  "OMG!!"  ;-) You are simply ***wonderful*** and I can’t WAIT to read the book! Helen

Well hurry up, dammit!  I’m dying to talk about it, but I don’t want to ruin it for everybody else!!  LOL

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Started reading it last night, after finishing John Sandford’s latest Prey novel and found it slow going. ( I should know better than to eat dessert first.) Brilliant way to open, though.  The image of a kilt-wearing African-American girl looking for the family tartan in a shop in Scotland and her reaction to the Nigerian group give you a good perspective on both where she’s coming from and where she’s going. J. I don’t want to get too specific (don’t know where you’re at in the book, or who else is reading it). I guess it’s the way the author writes, which I really enjoyed (I also enjoy John Sandford, BTW, and read his latest Prey book last week!  LOL).  To me, she’s not the type of writer where you can race through page by page.  I found myself having to put the book down every chapter or few pages, just to savor it (cry a couple of times), and think about it.  Could be because we were born and adopted in the same year. As a caucasion adoptee, I had trouble identifying with her issues about race, but in some ways, to me, she skillfully integrated them with her issues as an adoptee, so I was equally affected emotionally.  I’m not sure how you, as a dad, will see it.  Interested to hear your views.

I find myself comparing her circumstances to those of my teens and what I perceive my son’s to be today.  I was one of those whites in a largely Roman Catholic community with one or two black families and a small handful Korean adoptees.  It gives me some emotional perspective on what I know had to have been a hard situation.   My son has the advantage of living in a much more diverse community, but I know that he is beginning to struggle with the reality of race.  I’m interested in seeing where Sarah went and where my son goes with that.  That’s always been a daunting issue for me.  Sarah’s story may give me some emotional perspective on that as well. I don’t think I’ll give much of the story away to say that there was something that I’ve never heard of before, and wondered if any one else had? When she was adopted (in 1967), the agency told her parents that transracial adoption was illegal in some states, especially the southern ones.  They advised her parents not to relocate there. The author says that some of these laws were in effect until 1970.  gak

It would fit with the anti-miscegenation laws that were in effect in some states.  The U.S. Supreme court didn’t knock those laws down until 1967.  I found a brief history of such laws in the U.S. here: http://www.kqed.org/w/baywindow/othercolors/changingtimes/ Let me just say, J, that the beginning might be awfully introspective, but it really heats up past the middle.  You couldn’t find this in fiction.  After that, I couldn’t sit and savor the pages, I had to race through to find out what was happening.  Hubby laughs and said to say that every 10 minutes, I was saying, "No WAY!!"  "OMG!!"  ;-)

I’ll look forward to it.  Jane, on the other hand, won’t appreciate the bedside lamp on all night. J. Reply to jmhjmdATaolDOTcom

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Started reading it last night, after finishing John Sandford’s latest Prey novel and found it slow going. ( I should know better than to eat dessert first.) Brilliant way to open, though.  The image of a kilt-wearing African-American girl looking for the family tartan in a shop in Scotland and her reaction to the Nigerian group give you a good perspective on both where she’s coming from and where she’s going. J. I don’t want to get too specific (don’t know where you’re at in the book, or who else is reading it). I guess it’s the way the author writes, which I really enjoyed (I also enjoy John Sandford, BTW, and read his latest Prey book last week!  LOL).  To me, she’s not the type of writer where you can race through page by page.  I found myself having to put the book down every chapter or few pages, just to savor it (cry a couple of times), and think about it.  Could be because we were born and adopted in the same year. As a caucasion adoptee, I had trouble identifying with her issues about race, but in some ways, to me, she skillfully integrated them with her issues as an adoptee, so I was equally affected emotionally.  I’m not sure how you, as a dad, will see it.  Interested to hear your views. I don’t think I’ll give much of the story away to say that there was something that I’ve never heard of before, and wondered if any one else had? When she was adopted (in 1967), the agency told her parents that transracial adoption was illegal in some states, especially the southern ones.  They advised her parents not to relocate there. The author says that some of these laws were in effect until 1970.  gak Let me just say, J, that the beginning might be awfully introspective, but it really heats up past the middle.  You couldn’t find this in fiction. After that, I couldn’t sit and savor the pages, I had to race through to find out what was happening.  Hubby laughs and said to say that every 10 minutes, I was saying, "No WAY!!"  "OMG!!"  ;-)

You are simply ***wonderful*** and I can’t WAIT to read the book! Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I came across this listing at a book club site and thought about ordering it. Has anyone here read it?   J. Just wanted to say that I got the book today.  Read the first chapter and a half and had to put it down for a few (got to the part about the transracial German women and their reunions).   Very beautifully written.  

Started reading it last night, after finishing John Sandford’s latest Prey novel and found it slow going. ( I should know better than to eat dessert first.) Brilliant way to open, though.  The image of a kilt-wearing African-American girl looking for the family tartan in a shop in Scotland and her reaction to the Nigerian group give you a good perspective on both where she’s coming from and where she’s going. J. Reply to jmhjmdATaolDOTcom

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Started reading it last night, after finishing John Sandford’s latest Prey novel and found it slow going. ( I should know better than to eat dessert first.) Brilliant way to open, though.  The image of a kilt-wearing African-American girl looking for the family tartan in a shop in Scotland and her reaction to the Nigerian group give you a good perspective on both where she’s coming from and where she’s going. J.

I don’t want to get too specific (don’t know where you’re at in the book, or who else is reading it). I guess it’s the way the author writes, which I really enjoyed (I also enjoy John Sandford, BTW, and read his latest Prey book last week!  LOL).  To me, she’s not the type of writer where you can race through page by page.  I found myself having to put the book down every chapter or few pages, just to savor it (cry a couple of times), and think about it.  Could be because we were born and adopted in the same year. As a caucasion adoptee, I had trouble identifying with her issues about race, but in some ways, to me, she skillfully integrated them with her issues as an adoptee, so I was equally affected emotionally.  I’m not sure how you, as a dad, will see it.  Interested to hear your views. I don’t think I’ll give much of the story away to say that there was something that I’ve never heard of before, and wondered if any one else had? When she was adopted (in 1967), the agency told her parents that transracial adoption was illegal in some states, especially the southern ones.  They advised her parents not to relocate there. The author says that some of these laws were in effect until 1970.  gak Let me just say, J, that the beginning might be awfully introspective, but it really heats up past the middle.  You couldn’t find this in fiction.  After that, I couldn’t sit and savor the pages, I had to race through to find out what was happening.  Hubby laughs and said to say that every 10 minutes, I was saying, "No WAY!!"  "OMG!!"  ;-)

Response:

I came across this listing at a book club site and thought about ordering it. Has anyone here read it?   J.

Just wanted to say that I got the book today.  Read the first chapter and a half and had to put it down for a few (got to the part about the transracial German women and their reunions).   Very beautifully written.  Thanks so much for mentioning it, J.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I came across this listing at a book club site and thought about ordering it. Has anyone here read it?   J. Just wanted to say that I got the book today.  Read the first chapter and a half and had to put it down for a few (got to the part about the transracial German women and their reunions).   Very beautifully written.  Thanks so much for mentioning it, J.

You’re welcome.  I’m still waiting for my copy. J. Reply to jmhjmdATaolDOTcom

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I came across this listing at a book club site and thought about ordering it. Has anyone here read it?   J. I haven’t, but I’m putting it on my summer reading list.  Thanks J! I ordered it.  Maybe we can start a circulating library of sorts, along the lines of  Bookcrossing.com.  I like the idea of "performing random acts of literacy." http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/entertainment/books/5970740.htm J.

Sounds great!  The strange thing, is that she wrote 2 "Book Of Sarah’s".  I don’t know if there is an original with an addendum or what. Anyway, anybody interested, I picked mine up at half.com for a couple of bucks.

Response:

I came across this listing at a book club site and thought about ordering it. Has anyone here read it?   J.

I haven’t, but I’m putting it on my summer reading list.  Thanks J!

Response:

I came across this listing at a book club site and thought about ordering it. Has anyone here read it?   J. I haven’t, but I’m putting it on my summer reading list.  Thanks J!

I ordered it.  Maybe we can start a circulating library of sorts, along the lines of  Bookcrossing.com.  I like the idea of "performing random acts of literacy." http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/entertainment/books/5970740.htm J. Reply to jmhjmdATaolDOTcom

Response:

I came across this listing at a book club site and thought about ordering it. Has anyone here read it?   J. The Book of Sarahs Catherine E. McKinley Suffused with longing, this rueful, passionate memoir follows an adopted woman

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path:    sn-us!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!c03.atl99!news    .webusenet.com!pc01.webusenet.com!fe01.atl2.webusenet.com.POSTED!not-for-ma    il Newsgroups:    alt.politics.greens,alt.society.liberalism,alt.religion.christian.roman-cat    holic,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.christnet,sci.environment,alt.politics.libe    ralism Lines: 64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint    properly. Xref: sn-us alt.politics.greens:232901 alt.society.liberalism:1157489    alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:855358 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:2279111    alt.christnet:752776 sci.environment:392804 alt.politics.liberalism:478929 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Path: sn-us!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residenti al.shaw.ca!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pc01.webusenet.com!fe01.a tl2.webusenet.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens,alt.society.liberalism,alt.religion.christian.roman-cat holic,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.christnet,sci.environment,alt.politics.libe ralism Lines: 7 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. Xref: sn-us alt.politics.greens:232758 alt.society.liberalism:1157225 alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:855214 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:2278673 alt.christnet:752709 sci.environment:392730 alt.politics.liberalism:478745 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain So when will the brutal murderous American dictator be cleaned out? When are you leaving the country? when are you Nazi? go to Israel, they like Nazis. Or Saudi Arabia. same thing really. Is that the best you can do?  I thought liberals were supposed to be smart… well, at least you guys think you are.  Gimme something better than that!

I’m not a "liberal". They hate our Constitution. As does the Reichpublicans. I’m a libertarian…as in liberty. That includeds individual rights and mythical terrorists. liberty over "safety" every time Bubba!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: sn-us!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups:        alt.politics.greens,alt.society.liberalism,alt.religion.christian.roman-cat        holic,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.christnet,sci.environment,alt.politics.libe        ralism Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Lines: 43 Xref: sn-us alt.politics.greens:232861 alt.society.liberalism:1157421        alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:855312 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:2278990        alt.christnet:752748 sci.environment:392771 alt.politics.liberalism:478875 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yea because we’ve all seen how the Iraq war has destabilized the region… <rolls eyes I know you have a very short attention span, but lets see how things are 3 years down the road, shall we? <smiles at the simple minded dittohead Yea I’m sure you’ll be right here 3 years from now to comment on it <rolls eyes AGAIN.  Just like defeating Hitler destabilized the region, right? Just like nuking Japan destabilized the region, right?  Just like the Gulf war destabilized the region, right?   The Gulf War DID destabilize the region, chuckles.  And led to the terrorist attacks, including 9/11. The only thing destabilizing any region are the brutal murderous dictators, and when we clean them out, the region will be stable. Like Afghanistan? "By my estimation, since the war started, the 24-hour cable news networks, in conjuction with their military analysts, have dropped more than 30 megatons of precision- guided manure on the American people."               — Aaron McGruder, "The Boondocks" Not dead, in jail, or a slave?  Thank a liberal. Pay your taxes so the rich don’t have to. http://www.zeppscommentaries.com He’s an idiot. No regard for ethic context in his arguments. Japan and germany did not have the Islamic vs. Israel/US tension behind them. He is a dittohead dolt. not worth a response.

It’s fun to make them flail around. I pointed out earlier today that while German and Japan were indisputably sucess stories, we were stuck in Japan for seven years after the war ended, and Germany nearly 50.  And those were GOOD post-war occupations.   I wonder what French and British historians make of our efforts to reform Iraqi society? "By my estimation, since the war started, the 24-hour cable news networks, in conjuction with their military analysts, have dropped more than 30 megatons of precision- guided manure on the American people."               — Aaron McGruder, "The Boondocks" Not dead, in jail, or a slave?  Thank a liberal. Pay your taxes so the rich don’t have to. http://www.zeppscommentaries.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yea because we’ve all seen how the Iraq war has destabilized the  region… <rolls eyes I know you have a very short attention span, but lets see how things are 3 years down the road, shall we? <smiles at the simple minded dittohead Yea I’m sure you’ll be right here 3 years from now to comment on it <rolls eyes AGAIN.  Just like defeating Hitler destabilized the region, right? Just like nuking Japan destabilized the region, right?  Just like the Gulf war destabilized the region, right?  The only thing destabilizing any region are the brutal murderous dictators, and when we clean them out, the region will be stable. So, what are we waiting for: REGIME CHANGE IN WASHINGTON DC! Let’s get rid of the brutal murderous dictators.

<yawn  Say something new.

Response:

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alt.politics.greens,alt.society.liberalism,alt.religion.christian.roman-cat holic,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.christnet,sci.environment,alt.politics.libe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ralism Lines: 7 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. Xref: sn-us alt.politics.greens:232758 alt.society.liberalism:1157225 alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:855214

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alt.politics.liberalism:478745 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain So when will the brutal murderous American dictator be cleaned out? When are you leaving the country? when are you Nazi? go to Israel, they like Nazis. Or Saudi Arabia. same thing really.

Is that the best you can do?  I thought liberals were supposed to be smart… well, at least you guys think you are.  Gimme something better than that!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path:    sn-us!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residenti    al.shaw.ca!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pc01.webusenet.com!fe01.a    tl2.webusenet.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Newsgroups:    alt.politics.greens,alt.society.liberalism,alt.religion.christian.roman-cat    holic,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.christnet,sci.environment,alt.politics.libe    ralism Lines: 7 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint    properly. Xref: sn-us alt.politics.greens:232758 alt.society.liberalism:1157225    alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:855214 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:2278673    alt.christnet:752709 sci.environment:392730 alt.politics.liberalism:478745 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain So when will the brutal murderous American dictator be cleaned out? When are you leaving the country?

when are you Nazi? go to Israel, they like Nazis. Or Saudi Arabia. same thing really.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: sn-us!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups:    alt.politics.greens,alt.society.liberalism,alt.religion.christian.roman-cat    holic,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.christnet,sci.environment,alt.politics.libe    ralism Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Lines: 103 Xref: sn-us alt.politics.greens:232812 alt.society.liberalism:1157329    alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:855258 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:2278800    alt.christnet:752734 sci.environment:392749 alt.politics.liberalism:478787 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Yea because we’ve all seen how the Iraq war has destabilized the region… <rolls eyes I know you have a very short attention span, but lets see how things are 3 years down the road, shall we? <smiles at the simple minded dittohead Yea I’m sure you’ll be right here 3 years from now to comment on it <rolls eyes AGAIN.  Just like defeating Hitler destabilized the region, right? Just like nuking Japan destabilized the region, right?  Just like the Gulf war destabilized the region, right?  The only thing destabilizing any region are the brutal murderous dictators, and when we clean them out, the region will be stable. Hmm.  What follows is a post I made in alt.politics.bush, but it is also appropos to your post quoted above: ===begin copied post=== Well, let’s look back in history just a bit, shall we?         "[...] Our armies do not come into your cities         and lands as conquerors or enemies, but as         liberators. [...] People of Baghdad, remember         for 26 generations you have suffered under strange         tyrants who have ever endeavoured to set one Arab         house against another in order that they might         profit by your dissensions. [...] This policy is         abhorrent [...] for there can be neither peace nor         prosperity where there is enmity or misgovernment."                 Lt. Gen. Stanley Maude                 Baghdad, March 8, 1917 Thus began Britain’s last attempt to "take care of business over there" in Iraq in 1917.  They were sucessful with their military invasion and kicking out the then "tyrant."  The problems came when they tried to win the peace.  About a similar attempt in another Middle East country, Churcill was to say:         "At first, the steps were wide and shallow,         covered with a carpet, but in the end the         very stones crumbled under their feet." The country?  Palestine. Want more information? http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=3224&sectionID=22 That’s one of the first results from a Google search on "liberate Iraq 1917" — I’m sure there are other sites. Prediction, not mine but from the author of the above referenced site, Robert Fisk:         "Here I will make a guess: In the months and years         that follow the invasion of Iraq, the US, in its         arrogant assumption that it can create "democracy"         in the ashes of a Middle East dictatorship as well         as take its oil, will suffer the same as the British         in Palestine. This is not a simple matter of winning a war.  It’s far more complex.  And most of all, if the US is serious about establishing democracies in the Middle East, then it will face the irony of democracies in countries where the vast majority of the populations are *against* the US.  Their repressive governments are allies, but we will lose them if democracy takes over the Middle East. Do you think the Bush Administration is ready for that? And if not, if they respond by silencing anti-Americanism under calls of Iraq’s security, or Saddam plants or any other such defense, who in the Middle East will believe anything the Administration says in the future? What this President has never understood, and which Tom Daschle so exquisitely pointed out once the Iraq war started, is that kicking ass only goes so far, and then you are faced with good old fashioned, hard-work diplomacy.  And this President can’t speak diplomacy. ===end copied post "Stability" is not a word that has ever applied to the Middle East in it’s entire history — and I don’t just mean modern history, either. For the US to assume it can do what no-one else has managed to do, by fair means or foul, simply because it can kick butt bigger than anyone else is not only sheer hubris, but dangerous.  For the US most of all. Carol Flynt

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: sn-us!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups:    alt.politics.greens,alt.society.liberalism,alt.religion.christian.roman-cat    holic,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.christnet,sci.environment,alt.politics.libe    ralism Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Lines: 43 Xref: sn-us alt.politics.greens:232861 alt.society.liberalism:1157421    alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:855312 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:2278990    alt.christnet:752748 sci.environment:392771 alt.politics.liberalism:478875 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yea because we’ve all seen how the Iraq war has destabilized the region… <rolls eyes I know you have a very short attention span, but lets see how things are 3 years down the road, shall we? <smiles at the simple minded dittohead Yea I’m sure you’ll be right here 3 years from now to comment on it <rolls eyes AGAIN.  Just like defeating Hitler destabilized the region, right? Just like nuking Japan destabilized the region, right?  Just like the Gulf war destabilized the region, right?   The Gulf War DID destabilize the region, chuckles.  And led to the terrorist attacks, including 9/11. The only thing destabilizing any region are the brutal murderous dictators, and when we clean them out, the region will be stable. Like Afghanistan? "By my estimation, since the war started, the 24-hour cable news networks, in conjuction with their military analysts, have dropped more than 30 megatons of precision- guided manure on the American people."               — Aaron McGruder, "The Boondocks" Not dead, in jail, or a slave?  Thank a liberal. Pay your taxes so the rich don’t have to. http://www.zeppscommentaries.com

He’s an idiot. No regard for ethic context in his arguments. Japan and germany did not have the Islamic vs. Israel/US tension behind them. He is a dittohead dolt. not worth a response.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yea because we’ve all seen how the Iraq war has destabilized the region… <rolls eyes I know you have a very short attention span, but lets see how things are 3 years down the road, shall we? <smiles at the simple minded dittohead Yea I’m sure you’ll be right here 3 years from now to comment on it <rolls eyes AGAIN.  Just like defeating Hitler destabilized the region, right? Just like nuking Japan destabilized the region, right?  Just like the Gulf war destabilized the region, right? The Gulf War DID destabilize the region, chuckles. How so, Tubby? What instability did you detect in the region after the first Gulf War? Prior to the Gulf War Iraq and Iran were at war for 8 years (‘80-’88), Lebanon was in a constant state of civil war, Kuwait was invaded and annexed by Iraq. What sort of instability occurred after the war? Looked at the mideast at any point over the past 12 years?

Yes, I have, Tubby. What instability are you referring to? Any wars? Coup d’etats? Civil wars? The Gulf War, Tubbaloosa, actually improved the stability of the region compared to what came before it. And led to the terrorist attacks, including 9/11. Tubbster, Islamist fanaticism led to 9/11. The Gulf War led to restoring the sovereignty of Kuwait and the interim containment of Iraq. No doubt, but what made the fanatics target US?

What makes you target the U.S., Tubbster?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yea because we’ve all seen how the Iraq war has destabilized the region… <rolls eyes I know you have a very short attention span, but lets see how things are 3 years down the road, shall we? <smiles at the simple minded dittohead Yea I’m sure you’ll be right here 3 years from now to comment on it <rolls eyes AGAIN.  Just like defeating Hitler destabilized the region, right? Just like nuking Japan destabilized the region, right?  Just like the Gulf war destabilized the region, right? The Gulf War DID destabilize the region, chuckles. How so, Tubby? What instability did you detect in the region after the first Gulf War? Prior to the Gulf War Iraq and Iran were at war for 8 years (‘80-’88), Lebanon was in a constant state of civil war, Kuwait was invaded and annexed by Iraq. What sort of instability occurred after the war? Looked at the mideast at any point over the past 12 years? Yes, I have, Tubby. What instability are you referring to? Any wars? Coup d’etats? Civil wars? The Gulf War, Tubbaloosa, actually improved the stability of the region compared to what came before it.

Poor Marty.  You really can’t think for yourself at all, can you? Let’s see:  there is the slight matter of Palestine and the settlements.  You may have heard about that.   It stirred up a fellow named Osama bin Ladin and thousands of others like him.  You may have noticed that all the attacks on American targets occured AFTER the Gulf War.   And led to the terrorist attacks, including 9/11. Tubbster, Islamist fanaticism led to 9/11. The Gulf War led to restoring the sovereignty of Kuwait and the interim containment of Iraq. No doubt, but what made the fanatics target US? What makes you target the U.S., Tubbster?

Answer the question, if you can. "By my estimation, since the war started, the 24-hour cable news networks, in conjuction with their military analysts, have dropped more than 30 megatons of precision- guided manure on the American people."               — Aaron McGruder, "The Boondocks" Not dead, in jail, or a slave?  Thank a liberal. Pay your taxes so the rich don’t have to. http://www.zeppscommentaries.com

Response:

<rolls eyes

Did you watch too much of the OJ trial? I guess it worked for him, huh? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    A New Kind of Nuke Weapon   In August, the Pentagon will hold discussions on a new  generation of tactical nuclear weapons, whose development  would threaten global non-proliferation.   The consequences  of such weapons could well be more destabilizing than  any military invasion.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yea because we’ve all seen how the Iraq war has destabilized the region… <rolls eyes I know you have a very short attention span, but lets see how things are 3 years down the road, shall we? <smiles at the simple minded dittohead Yea I’m sure you’ll be right here 3 years from now to comment on it <rolls eyes AGAIN.  Just like defeating Hitler destabilized the region, right? Just like nuking Japan destabilized the region, right?  Just like the Gulf war destabilized the region, right? The Gulf War DID destabilize the region, chuckles.

How so, Tubby? What instability did you detect in the region after the first Gulf War? Prior to the Gulf War Iraq and Iran were at war for 8 years (‘80-’88), Lebanon was in a constant state of civil war, Kuwait was invaded and annexed by Iraq. What sort of instability occurred after the war? And led to the terrorist attacks, including 9/11.

Tubbster, Islamist fanaticism led to 9/11. The Gulf War led to restoring the sovereignty of Kuwait and the interim containment of Iraq.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yea because we’ve all seen how the Iraq war has destabilized the  region… <rolls eyes I know you have a very short attention span, but lets see how things are 3 years down the road, shall we? <smiles at the simple minded dittohead Yea I’m sure you’ll be right here 3 years from now to comment on it <rolls eyes AGAIN.  Just like defeating Hitler destabilized the region, right? Just like nuking Japan destabilized the region, right?  Just like the Gulf war destabilized the region, right?  The only thing destabilizing any region are the brutal murderous dictators, and when we clean them out, the region will be stable.

So, what are we waiting for: REGIME CHANGE IN WASHINGTON DC! Let’s get rid of the brutal murderous dictators.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yea because we’ve all seen how the Iraq war has destabilized the region… <rolls eyes I know you have a very short attention span, but lets see how things are 3 years down the road, shall we? <smiles at the simple minded dittohead Yea I’m sure you’ll be right here 3 years from now to comment on it <rolls eyes AGAIN.  Just like defeating Hitler destabilized the region, right? Just like nuking Japan destabilized the region, right?  Just like the Gulf war destabilized the region, right? The Gulf War DID destabilize the region, chuckles. How so, Tubby? What instability did you detect in the region after the first Gulf War? Prior to the Gulf War Iraq and Iran were at war for 8 years (‘80-’88), Lebanon was in a constant state of civil war, Kuwait was invaded and annexed by Iraq. What sort of instability occurred after the war?

Looked at the mideast at any point over the past 12 years? And led to the terrorist attacks, including 9/11. Tubbster, Islamist fanaticism led to 9/11. The Gulf War led to restoring the sovereignty of Kuwait and the interim containment of Iraq.

No doubt, but what made the fanatics target US? "By my estimation, since the war started, the 24-hour cable news networks, in conjuction with their military analysts, have dropped more than 30 megatons of precision- guided manure on the American people."               — Aaron McGruder, "The Boondocks" Not dead, in jail, or a slave?  Thank a liberal. Pay your taxes so the rich don’t have to. http://www.zeppscommentaries.com

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So when will the brutal murderous American dictator be cleaned out?

When are you leaving the country?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Yea because we’ve all seen how the Iraq war has destabilized the region… <rolls eyes I know you have a very short attention span, but lets see how things are 3 years down the road, shall we? <smiles at the simple minded dittohead Yea I’m sure you’ll be right here 3 years from now to comment on it <rolls eyes AGAIN.  Just like defeating Hitler destabilized the region, right? Just like nuking Japan destabilized the region, right?  Just like the Gulf war destabilized the region, right?  The only thing destabilizing any region are the brutal murderous dictators, and when we clean them out, the region will be stable.

Hmm.  What follows is a post I made in alt.politics.bush, but it is also appropos to your post quoted above: ===begin copied post=== Well, let’s look back in history just a bit, shall we?         "[...] Our armies do not come into your cities         and lands as conquerors or enemies, but as         liberators. [...] People of Baghdad, remember         for 26 generations you have suffered under strange         tyrants who have ever endeavoured to set one Arab         house against another in order that they might         profit by your dissensions. [...] This policy is         abhorrent [...] for there can be neither peace nor         prosperity where there is enmity or misgovernment."                 Lt. Gen. Stanley Maude                 Baghdad, March 8, 1917 Thus began Britain’s last attempt to "take care of business over there" in Iraq in 1917.  They were sucessful with their military invasion and kicking out the then "tyrant."  The problems came when they tried to win the peace.  About a similar attempt in another Middle East country, Churcill was to say:         "At first, the steps were wide and shallow,         covered with a carpet, but in the end the         very stones crumbled under their feet." The country?  Palestine. Want more information? http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=3224&sectionID=22 That’s one of the first results from a Google search on "liberate Iraq 1917" — I’m sure there are other sites. Prediction, not mine but from the author of the above referenced site, Robert Fisk:         "Here I will make a guess: In the months and years         that follow the invasion of Iraq, the US, in its         arrogant assumption that it can create "democracy"         in the ashes of a Middle East dictatorship as well         as take its oil, will suffer the same as the British         in Palestine. This is not a simple matter of winning a war.  It’s far more complex.  And most of all, if the US is serious about establishing democracies in the Middle East, then it will face the irony of democracies in countries where the vast majority of the populations are *against* the US.  Their repressive governments are allies, but we will lose them if democracy takes over the Middle East. Do you think the Bush Administration is ready for that? And if not, if they respond by silencing anti-Americanism under calls of Iraq’s security, or Saddam plants or any other such defense, who in the Middle East will believe anything the Administration says in the future? What this President has never understood, and which Tom Daschle so exquisitely pointed out once the Iraq war started, is that kicking ass only goes so far, and then you are faced with good old fashioned, hard-work diplomacy.  And this President can’t speak diplomacy. ===end copied post "Stability" is not a word that has ever applied to the Middle East in it’s entire history — and I don’t just mean modern history, either. For the US to assume it can do what no-one else has managed to do, by fair means or foul, simply because it can kick butt bigger than anyone else is not only sheer hubris, but dangerous.  For the US most of all. Carol Flynt

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Yea because we’ve all seen how the Iraq war has destabilized the region… <rolls eyes I know you have a very short attention span, but lets see how things are 3 years down the road, shall we? <smiles at the simple minded dittohead Yea I’m sure you’ll be right here 3 years from now to comment on it <rolls eyes AGAIN.  Just like defeating Hitler destabilized the region, right? Just like nuking Japan destabilized the region, right?  Just like the Gulf war destabilized the region, right?  

The Gulf War DID destabilize the region, chuckles.  And led to the terrorist attacks, including 9/11. The only thing destabilizing any region are the brutal murderous dictators, and when we clean them out, the region will be stable.

Like Afghanistan? "By my estimation, since the war started, the 24-hour cable news networks, in conjuction with their military analysts, have dropped more than 30 megatons of precision- guided manure on the American people."               — Aaron McGruder, "The Boondocks" Not dead, in jail, or a slave?  Thank a liberal. Pay your taxes so the rich don’t have to. http://www.zeppscommentaries.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Yea because we’ve all seen how the Iraq war has destabilized the region… <rolls eyes I know you have a very short attention span, but lets see how things are 3 years down the road, shall we? <smiles at the simple minded dittohead Yea I’m sure you’ll be right here 3 years from now to comment on it <rolls eyes AGAIN.  Just like defeating Hitler destabilized the region, right? Just like nuking Japan destabilized the region, right?  Just like the Gulf war destabilized the region, right?  The only thing destabilizing any region are the brutal murderous dictators, and when we clean them out, the region will be stable.

"They make a desert, and call it Peace." – Tacitus, circa 50 AD So when will the brutal murderous American dictator be cleaned out?

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  Yea because we’ve all seen how the Iraq war has destabilized the region… <rolls eyes I know you have a very short attention span, but lets see how things are 3 years down the road, shall we? <smiles at the simple minded dittohead

Yea I’m sure you’ll be right here 3 years from now to comment on it <rolls eyes AGAIN.  Just like defeating Hitler destabilized the region, right? Just like nuking Japan destabilized the region, right?  Just like the Gulf war destabilized the region, right?  The only thing destabilizing any region are the brutal murderous dictators, and when we clean them out, the region will be stable.

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Yea because we’ve all seen how the Iraq war has destabilized the region… <rolls eyes

I know you have a very short attention span, but lets see how things are 3 years down the road, shall we? <smiles at the simple minded dittohead – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    A New Kind of Nuke Weapon   In August, the Pentagon will hold discussions on a new  generation of tactical nuclear weapons, whose development  would threaten global non-proliferation.   The consequences  of such weapons could well be more destabilizing than  any military invasion.

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Yea because we’ve all seen how the Iraq war has destabilized the region… <rolls eyes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    A New Kind of Nuke Weapon   In August, the Pentagon will hold discussions on a new  generation of tactical nuclear weapons, whose development  would threaten global non-proliferation.   The consequences  of such weapons could well be more destabilizing than  any military invasion.

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**   Hawks have the upper hand but next few weeks **   will decide direction of Bush foreign policy – and **   with it the fate of many nations ** Julian Borger in Washington ** Thursday April 17, 2003 ** The Guardian ** The Blair government believes that in the next few weeks it will ** be clear how the Bush administration has been influenced by its ** military victory in Iraq, and what kind of superpower it wants the ** United States to be in the post-war world. ** The administration went into Iraq at war with itself over its role ** in the world, and there are abundant signs that conflict has not ** been settled with the fall of Saddam Hussein. Inter-agency ** squabbles have broken out, for example, over the shape of the ** Interim Iraqi Authority and the Pentagon’s role in promoting its ** own favourite, Ahmed Chalabi. ** British officials are watching vigilantly from the wings. Tony ** Blair hopes that Washington will emerge from the war, and the ** diplomatic mess that preceded it, readier to listen to its allies and ** the rest of the world and readier to consider multilateral solutions ** to global problems. ** But London acknowledges that it is far from clear Washington ** intends to be a kinder or softer superpower. In the short term, ** the speed of the victory and the relatively small US combat ** casualty figures have strengthened the hand of the ideological ** hawks, who see Iraq as only the first step in a rolling programme ** of regime change. ** Meanwhile, the UN debacle beforehand weakened Colin Powell, ** the secretary of state, who along with Mr Blair persuaded ** President Bush to travel the UN route.       …….snip http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,938344,00.html ** ** **   Multilateralism versus unilateralism ** In the wake of the collapse of UN security council talks on Iraq, ** there have been calls from neo-conservative circles for the UN ** and Nato to be jettisoned altogether as a vestige of the cold war. ** Instead the world’s sole superpower would find allies and ** "coalitions of the willing" when and where it needed them. ** Such radical solutions remain unlikely even at this moment of ** triumphalism. The White House is aware that the UN seal of ** authority remains vital when it comes to finding allies, as it did in    A New Kind of Nuke Weapon   In August, the Pentagon will hold discussions on a new  generation of tactical nuclear weapons, whose development  would threaten global non-proliferation.   The consequences  of such weapons could well be more destabilizing than  any military invasion.

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