Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

I know far more about the immediate and personal cost of war than you will ever know. If true you would not naive enough to beleive Iraq had anyhting to do with terrorism.

John Kerry thought so! When people see themselves as the "elect", they can easily conclude that others are sinners.  It is out of this sense of self righteousness that true believers may feel chosen to do God’s work.  That’s when their will becomes God’s will, their desires become God’s desires, their wars become God’s wars.

Response:

KISS IT! PLONK!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree!   they can start at your house. Good plan. Yeah! Right! We’ve got to shift the battlefield back to here! FUCK OFF! PLONK!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump.  He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen.  He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there.  This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

I agree!   they can start at your house. Good plan. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Yeah! Right! We’ve got to shift the battlefield back to here! FUCK OFF! PLONK!! I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump.  He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen.  He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there.  This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

You can’t even understand a plain sentence, YOU FUCKING MORON!! PLONK!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know far more about the immediate and personal cost of war than you will ever know. If true you would not naive enough to beleive Iraq had anyhting to do with terrorism. — http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air — however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75) "It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law may say," Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch – commenting upon Defense Department Lawyer Will Dunham’s 56-page legalization of torture memo. If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or vote for the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the Republican Party. Ralph Nader – June 2004 – The American Conservative Magazine "But I believe in torture and I will torture you." -An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with an Iraqi prisoner. "My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed, our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the freedom of our country. -Iraqi Mahdi fighter "We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came. One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead so he wouldn’t kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried, the soldier said: "’No, stop," -Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding. "the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian Zionists and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy." -Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister "Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton’s administration for the Kosovo military action.’Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,’ Bush said." Houston Chronicle 4/9/99 "Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to destabilize their country." Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004 "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there’s a major incident and then suddenly say, ‘Oh my God, shouldn’t we be organized to deal with this?’" – Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001. "On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein’s regime the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because "diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor." Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey Bergner, Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman, William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had Baghdad on their minds." -philip (usenet) "I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam," -Richard Cheney, Kerry critic. "I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up and running   – to be effective – some of its sovereignty will have to be given back, if I can put it that way, or limited by them, It’s sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they are going to allow us to exercise on their behalf and with their permission." – Powell 4/27/04 "We’re trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things obviously are not going well. You’re going to have good days and bad days." On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good moments." – Rumsfeld 4/6/04 "I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this country’s gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty’s gift to every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread of freedom." ~ Bush the Crusader RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose? BUSH: No, I’m not going to lose. RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do? BUSH: Well, I don’t plan on losing. I’ve got a vision for what I want to do for the country. changing times here in America, too., 2/8/04 "And that’s very important for, I think, the people to understand where I’m coming from, to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn’t. I’m a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with war on my mind. – pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04 "Let’s talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding these kinds of efforts. He’s had years to get good at it and we know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons. And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." – Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03 "I don’t know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the Iraqis had nuclear weapons." – Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03 "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)." – Richard Perle "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours." – Colin Powell February 24 2001 "We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful." "He threatens not the United States." "But I also thought that we had pretty much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have." ‘But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying "look what I got." He hasn’t been able to do that.’   – Colin Powell February 26 2001

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah! Right! We’ve got to shift the battlefield back to here! You clueless moron. The battlefield was never here. Bush started a new holy war in Iraq instead of finishing the job of going after the Saudi terrorists. Damn, you are dumb as a freaken brick.

precisely – more like him and we can kiss Liberty goodbye. — http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air — however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75) "It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law may say," Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch – commenting upon Defense Department Lawyer Will Dunham’s 56-page legalization of torture memo. If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or vote for the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the Republican Party. Ralph Nader – June 2004 – The American Conservative Magazine "But I believe in torture and I will torture you." -An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with an Iraqi prisoner. "My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed, our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the freedom of our country. -Iraqi Mahdi fighter "We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came. One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead so he wouldn’t kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried, the soldier said: "’No, stop," -Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding. "the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian Zionists and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy." -Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister "Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton’s administration for the Kosovo military action.’Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,’ Bush said." Houston Chronicle 4/9/99 "Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to destabilize their country." Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004 "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there’s a major incident and then suddenly say, ‘Oh my God, shouldn’t we be organized to deal with this?’" – Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001. "On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein’s regime the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because "diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor." Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey Bergner, Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman, William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had Baghdad on their minds." -philip (usenet) "I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam," -Richard Cheney, Kerry critic. "I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up and running   – to be effective – some of its sovereignty will have to be given back, if I can put it that way, or limited by them, It’s sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they are going to allow us to exercise on their behalf and with their permission." – Powell 4/27/04 "We’re trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things obviously are not going well. You’re going to have good days and bad days." On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good moments." – Rumsfeld 4/6/04 "I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this country’s gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty’s gift to every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread of freedom." ~ Bush the Crusader RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose? BUSH: No, I’m not going to lose. RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do? BUSH: Well, I don’t plan on losing. I’ve got a vision for what I want to do for the country. changing times here in America, too., 2/8/04 "And that’s very important for, I think, the people to understand where I’m coming from, to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn’t. I’m a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with war on my mind. – pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04 "Let’s talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding these kinds of efforts. He’s had years to get good at it and we know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons. And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." – Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03 "I don’t know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the Iraqis had nuclear weapons." – Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03 "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)." – Richard Perle "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours." – Colin Powell February 24 2001 "We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful." "He threatens not the United States." "But I also thought that we had pretty much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have." ‘But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying "look what I got." He hasn’t been able to do that.’   – Colin Powell February 26 2001

Response:

I know far more about the immediate and personal cost of war than you will ever know.

If true you would not naive enough to beleive Iraq had anyhting to do with terrorism. — http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air — however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75) "It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law may say," Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch – commenting upon Defense Department Lawyer Will Dunham’s 56-page legalization of torture memo. If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or vote for the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the Republican Party. Ralph Nader – June 2004 – The American Conservative Magazine "But I believe in torture and I will torture you." -An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with an Iraqi prisoner. "My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed, our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the freedom of our country. -Iraqi Mahdi fighter "We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came. One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead so he wouldn’t kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried, the soldier said: "’No, stop," -Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding. "the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian Zionists and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy." -Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister "Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton’s administration for the Kosovo military action.’Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,’ Bush said." Houston Chronicle 4/9/99 "Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to destabilize their country." Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004 "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there’s a major incident and then suddenly say, ‘Oh my God, shouldn’t we be organized to deal with this?’" – Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001. "On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein’s regime the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because "diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor." Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey Bergner, Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman, William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had Baghdad on their minds." -philip (usenet) "I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam," -Richard Cheney, Kerry critic. "I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up and running   – to be effective – some of its sovereignty will have to be given back, if I can put it that way, or limited by them, It’s sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they are going to allow us to exercise on their behalf and with their permission." – Powell 4/27/04 "We’re trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things obviously are not going well. You’re going to have good days and bad days." On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good moments." – Rumsfeld 4/6/04 "I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this country’s gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty’s gift to every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread of freedom." ~ Bush the Crusader RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose? BUSH: No, I’m not going to lose. RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do? BUSH: Well, I don’t plan on losing. I’ve got a vision for what I want to do for the country. changing times here in America, too., 2/8/04 "And that’s very important for, I think, the people to understand where I’m coming from, to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn’t. I’m a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with war on my mind. – pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04 "Let’s talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding these kinds of efforts. He’s had years to get good at it and we know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons. And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." – Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03 "I don’t know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the Iraqis had nuclear weapons." – Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03 "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)." – Richard Perle "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours." – Colin Powell February 24 2001 "We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful." "He threatens not the United States." "But I also thought that we had pretty much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have." ‘But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying "look what I got." He hasn’t been able to do that.’   – Colin Powell February 26 2001

Response:

Yeah! Right! We’ve got to shift the battlefield back to here!

You clueless moron. The battlefield was never here. Bush started a new holy war in Iraq instead of finishing the job of going after the Saudi terrorists. Damn, you are dumb as a freaken brick.

Response:

Naqtions expend blood and treasure in war. We are fortunate that our society has a wealth creation ethic, so we can make the choice of expending treasure first. I know far more about the immediate and personal cost of war than you will ever know. I also have a very low threshold of tolerance for fools. PLONK!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah! Right! We’ve got to shift the battlefield back to here! FUCK OFF! PLONK!! Now that’s some fear.  Let our good men and more innocent civilians in the Middle East die or come home maimed so you don’t have to wait in long lines at the airport.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump.  He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen.  He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there.  This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

OH! DEAR! WEEP, MOAN, AND GNASH YOUR TEETH! WE ARE SO EVIL. I imagine you are being held prisoner in this most immoral of countries. Well, I’m going to end one little part of your misery. PLONK!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – said, directing the reply to   alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US] When? Where? How? Sure you don’t mean Iran, for the moment at least, and then perhaps Syria… Shame about North Korea and Zimbabwe though… I think God for the brave men and women over the centuries that have gone into hell and back home.  If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution. Groups of people have wanted the US land for many many years. Yes. Presumably Native Americans, for the most part. But are you seriously saying that Saddam was planning to *invade* the USA? They have hated us and have tried to change us into their citizens instead of having freedom. Nice rhetoric. Two points occur: First, the USA has a rather longer history of creating "friendly dictatorships" in other countries than it does of introducing democratic governments. The problem is that "friendly" means friendly to the US and not to the people of the country in question. Take a brief look at the history of South and Central America, for example. The "Del Monte" coup in Guatemala is quite instructive in this respect. Then there’s Chilie, Rios Montt, and so on and so forth…. Of course one might argue that at the cold-war time, these things were necessary to preserve US security – but are you really surprised that the – for example – the thousands of, erm, extra-judicial executions, and torture by dictatorships supported by the US in say Iran, Chilie, Guatemala and so on hasn’t left a very deep, pervasive and long-term anti-US sentiment in many parts of the world? Secondly, given the Patriot Act, Americans now have less freedom that has previously been the case. You might want to google "Night and Fog" as regards what can be done in the name of National Security, not only to non citizens, but to citizens – while it seems problematic in an ethical sense to accord citizens and non citizens different rights. But this is, of course, one of the traditional methods of terrorism. Bin Laden and fellow travelers, even if they managed a 9/11 ever month or two could never overthrow the US. But what they might do is cause the US to enact laws and practices so restrictive that the guy in the street gets so pissed off that he elects a government that is prepared to deal. I want them home too.  I want AlQuieda to leave us alone. Then you’re going to, sooner or later, have to deal. Or else implement a world-wide police state that of its nature defeats the principles you’re allegedly fighting for. But of course Bin Laden had long gone beyond dealing, no longer being the analogous to say, the IRA, but rather, these days, Baader-Meinhof. Tricky, eh? But not, I think, insoluble. I want Bin Laden to get a life other than killing Americans in the name of his god.  I want Saddam Hussein to go to hell to be with Hilter and the other anti American soldier killers that have tried to kill us throughout history. Well, leaving aside the Christian premise that no one, save God, has the right to judge another deserving of Hell it seems to me that unless you acknowledge the, ah, problems other people have with the US concept of freedom as applied to non-Americans within living memory, this kind of thing is never going to stop. Bin Laden could not have remained at large for so long or been able to do so much *unless* there was considerable tacit and material support for him, his group, and so on: you might then ask yourself why he enjoys such considerable support while considering that cutting off such support is not so much a police or military matter as a political, and social one. For example, do you think Iran dislikes the USA because they "hate freedom", or a lot of people have relatives that suffered, were tortured, and or executed under the Shah who was supported by the USA? But lady, it ain’t gonna stop with this war or the next. It will only stop when we are tired of fighting to stay free of them. Ah. The "Forever War". http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380708213 But you won’t understand the ref…. God bless that young man in your town.  And thank God he is home now. Quite so. But equally what a pity he was told to go on what increasingly looks like a false basis.  And given the recent cuts in military benefits, one wonders what his country will do for him seeing as what he has given for his country. — "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You." – Attrib: Pauline Reage. Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion? See: <http://www.Video2CD.com. 35.00 gets your video on DVD. all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read. ** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.

Response:

Roger that! Buck

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US] I think God for the brave men and women over the centuries that have gone into hell and back home.  If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution.  Groups of people have wanted the US land for many many years.  They have hated us and have tried to change us into their citizens instead of having freedom. I want them home too.  I want AlQuieda to leave us alone.  I want Bin Laden to get a life other than killing Americans in the name of his god.  I want Saddam Hussein to go to hell to be with Hilter and the other anti American soldier killers that have tried to kill us throughout history.  But lady, it ain’t gonna stop with this war or the next. It will only stop when we are tired of fighting to stay free of them. God bless that young man in your town.  And thank God he is home now. — Wil I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump.  He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen.  He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there.  This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US] When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first

So you admit that the attack and invasion was illegal. Good. That’s a start.  If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution. How? —– –Scott in Florida

– "You don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

Response:

How long did you server in my military ~z~ ? What branch and mos also?

We gotta get them out of there.  This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US] When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US

Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first  If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution. How?

—– –Scott in Florida

Response:

Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US]  I

Another victim of brainwashing by the rightwing media.  How sad.     –bks

Response:

Troll.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US] I think God for the brave men and women over the centuries that have gone into hell and back home.  If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution.  Groups of people have wanted the US land for many many years.  They have hated us and have tried to change us into their citizens instead of having freedom. I want them home too.  I want AlQuieda to leave us alone.  I want Bin Laden to get a life other than killing Americans in the name of his god.  I want Saddam Hussein to go to hell to be with Hilter and the other anti American soldier killers that have tried to kill us throughout history.  But lady, it ain’t gonna stop with this war or the next. It will only stop when we are tired of fighting to stay free of them. God bless that young man in your town.  And thank God he is home now. — Wil I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump.  He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen.  He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there.  This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

said, directing the reply to   alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US]  

When? Where? How? Sure you don’t mean Iran, for the moment at least, and then perhaps Syria… Shame about North Korea and Zimbabwe though… I think God for the brave men and women over the centuries that have gone into hell and back home.  If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution.   Groups of people have wanted the US land for many many years.

Yes. Presumably Native Americans, for the most part. But are you seriously saying that Saddam was planning to *invade* the USA? They have hated us and have tried to change us into their citizens instead of having freedom.

Nice rhetoric. Two points occur: First, the USA has a rather longer history of creating "friendly dictatorships" in other countries than it does of introducing democratic governments. The problem is that "friendly" means friendly to the US and not to the people of the country in question. Take a brief look at the history of South and Central America, for example. The "Del Monte" coup in Guatemala is quite instructive in this respect. Then there’s Chilie, Rios Montt, and so on and so forth…. Of course one might argue that at the cold-war time, these things were necessary to preserve US security – but are you really surprised that the – for example – the thousands of, erm, extra-judicial executions, and torture by dictatorships supported by the US in say Iran, Chilie, Guatemala and so on hasn’t left a very deep, pervasive and long-term anti-US sentiment in many parts of the world? Secondly, given the Patriot Act, Americans now have less freedom that has previously been the case. You might want to google "Night and Fog" as regards what can be done in the name of National Security, not only to non citizens, but to citizens – while it seems problematic in an ethical sense to accord citizens and non citizens different rights. But this is, of course, one of the traditional methods of terrorism. Bin Laden and fellow travelers, even if they managed a 9/11 ever month or two could never overthrow the US. But what they might do is cause the US to enact laws and practices so restrictive that the guy in the street gets so pissed off that he elects a government that is prepared to deal. I want them home too.  I want AlQuieda to leave us alone.  

Then you’re going to, sooner or later, have to deal. Or else implement a world-wide police state that of its nature defeats the principles you’re allegedly fighting for. But of course Bin Laden had long gone beyond dealing, no longer being the analogous to say, the IRA, but rather, these days, Baader-Meinhof. Tricky, eh? But not, I think, insoluble. I want Bin Laden to get a life other than killing Americans in the name of his god.  I want Saddam Hussein to go to hell to be with Hilter and the other anti American soldier killers that have tried to kill us throughout history.  

Well, leaving aside the Christian premise that no one, save God, has the right to judge another deserving of Hell it seems to me that unless you acknowledge the, ah, problems other people have with the US concept of freedom as applied to non-Americans within living memory, this kind of thing is never going to stop. Bin Laden could not have remained at large for so long or been able to do so much *unless* there was considerable tacit and material support for him, his group, and so on: you might then ask yourself why he enjoys such considerable support while considering that cutting off such support is not so much a police or military matter as a political, and social one. For example, do you think Iran dislikes the USA because they "hate freedom", or a lot of people have relatives that suffered, were tortured, and or executed under the Shah who was supported by the USA? But lady, it ain’t gonna stop with this war or the next. It will only stop when we are tired of fighting to stay free of them.

Ah. The "Forever War". http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380708213 But you won’t understand the ref…. God bless that young man in your town.  And thank God he is home now.

Quite so. But equally what a pity he was told to go on what increasingly looks like a false basis.  And given the recent cuts in military benefits, one wonders what his country will do for him seeing as what he has given for his country. — "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You." – Attrib: Pauline Reage. Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion? See: <http://www.Video2CD.com. 35.00 gets your video on DVD. all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read. ** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.

Response:

Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US]

Really? Saddam attacked the USA funny how everyone but you missed that.  The president missed it. The news organizations missed it. The US military missed it. Exactly when and where did this attack take place? I think God for the brave men and women over the centuries that have gone into hell and back home.  If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution.  

apparently you’re familiar with the relentless attacks on our Constitution by the current administration? Educate yourself. Groups of people have wanted the US land for many many years.  

nonsense. They have hated us and have tried to change us into their citizens instead of having freedom.

please provide examples. Keep in mind that there has not been a military attack on the US since World War II. I want them home too.  I want AlQuieda to leave us alone.

Then don’t support bush. He has done more to strengthen Al Qaeda then Bin Laden has done. Bush is the perfect recruitment tool for Bin Laden.  I want Bin Laden to get a life other than killing Americans in the name of his god.  I want Saddam Hussein to go to hell to be with Hilter and the other anti American soldier killers that have tried to kill us throughout history.

bush has murdered nearly 12,000 innocent people for nothing. You’re ok with that , right? You ar4e anti-American scum. You are a freedom hating , constitution bashing traitor. But lady, it ain’t gonna stop with this war or the next. It will only stop when we are tired of fighting to stay free of them. God bless that young man in your town.  And thank God he is home now.

The war was both unnecessary and illegal. Bush has murdered 1000 American military personnel and tens of thousands of innocent civilians. God has nothing to do with this. When bush finally meets his judgment he better take lots of sun screen with him because where he’s going it’s going to be very very hot. — "You don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

Response:

Yeah! Right! We’ve got to shift the battlefield back to here! FUCK OFF! PLONK!!

Now that’s some fear.  Let our good men and more innocent civilians in the Middle East die or come home maimed so you don’t have to wait in long lines at the airport. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump.  He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen.  He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there.  This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US]  I think God for the brave men and women over the centuries that have gone into hell and back home.  If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution.  Groups of people have wanted the US land for many many years.  They have hated us and have tried to change us into their citizens instead of having freedom. I want them home too.  I want AlQuieda to leave us alone.  I want Bin Laden to get a life other than killing Americans in the name of his god.  I want Saddam Hussein to go to hell to be with Hilter and the other anti American soldier killers that have tried to kill us throughout history.  But lady, it ain’t gonna stop with this war or the next. It will only stop when we are tired of fighting to stay free of them. God bless that young man in your town.  And thank God he is home now. — Wil – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump.  He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen.  He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there.  This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US]

Lying dolt  I think God for the brave men and women over the centuries that have gone into hell and back home.

You may think god, but you surely don’t know it, if there is one. If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution.  Groups of people have wanted the US land for many many years.  They have hated us and have tried to change us into their citizens instead of having freedom.

Now your president takes your freedom.  We used to have presidents who encouraged bravery and resillieance, this one recommends duct tape and stiking your head in the sand.  What a coward! I want them home too.  I want AlQuieda to leave us alone,

Are you talking about Al Qaida or his brother, John Qaida? I want Saddam Hussein to go to hell to be with Hilter and the other anti American soldier killers that have tried to kill us throughout history.

So we can rape little boys in honor of the stature of liberty?  But lady, it ain’t gonna stop with this war or the next. It will only stop when we are tired of fighting to stay free of them.

They are fighting to stay free of you and your idiocy.  You weren’t invited or required, you just invaded and are stealing iraq blind. God bless that young man in your town.  And thank God he is home now. — Wil

Maybe you should fill in the gap, chickenhawk!

Response:

Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US]

When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US  If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution.

How?

Response:

I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump.  He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen.  He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there.  This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

Yeah! Right! We’ve got to shift the battlefield back to here! FUCK OFF! PLONK!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump.  He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen.  He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there.  This is so unfair and so needless.

Response: