Catholics & Catholicism » Roman Catholic History

Animals & People

admin — Sun, 28 Nov 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Evolutionists continue to spout the same nonsense without any proof

Wuaharrharrharr! Meep meep — Regards Thore "Tocis" Schmechtig

Response:

Gdo declares that…

…I-know-SHIT is too dumb to spell a three-letter-word right, not even if it’s the name of his idol. — Regards Thore "Tocis" Schmechtig

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Animals & People "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." I Cor 15:39 Gdo declares that flesh(Greek-sarx) is different. Along with the term flesh goes DNA. As DNA is examinined and analyzed(and this is far from complete today) we do find a substantial difference between man, beasts, fish and birds. Now DNA is the code of life but is not life itself. As an example when a living thing dies all the chemicals for life are still present yet there is no animation or life present. This quality called life is missing an nothing can bring it back. However, when a creature is conceived this attribute is present and growth occurs proceeding from that life. In the past medical people have tried to introduce animal organs and blood into humans with only failure(eg. baboon hearts, pig heart valves, sheep blood, etc). All they needed to do was to read what God has declared in I Cor 15:39 above. But such is the lack of wisdom today as well as the source of all wisdom. When in doubt read the manual!

Evolutionists continue to spout the same nonsense without any proof that we share the same ‘ancestor’ as the ape and monkey. Yet the scientists who study transplants are working with Pigs and Swine organs and not monkeys or apes. Why? Because monkey and ape organs are incompatible with human DNA and would be rejected outright even with drugs used to ‘fool’ the immune system.

Response:

Animals & People "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." I Cor 15:39 Gdo declares [,,,]

Who or what is ‘Gdo’? Sounds Italian. — Tom McDonald

Response:

– .

Animals & People "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." I Cor 15:39 Gdo declares that flesh(Greek-sarx) is different.

Who cares what you fairy tale god bellows! It is religion (fantasy and invented fairy tales) … not fact!!!!

Response:

Animals & People "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." I Cor 15:39

Ec 3:19. Gdo declares that flesh(Greek-sarx) is different. Along with the term flesh goes DNA. As DNA is examinined and analyzed(and this is far from complete today) we do find a substantial difference between man, beasts, fish and birds. Now DNA is the code of life but is not life

We also find that pongids and humans have a LOT of identical scars of genetic accidents. How is that not evidence for common descent? itself. As an example when a living thing dies all the chemicals for life are still present yet there is no animation or life present. This quality called life is missing an nothing can bring it back. However, when a creature is conceived this attribute is present and growth occurs proceeding from that life. In the past medical people have tried to introduce animal organs and blood into humans with only failure(eg. baboon hearts, pig heart valves, sheep blood, etc). All they needed to do was to read what God has declared in I Cor 15:39 above. But such is the lack of wisdom today as well as the source of all wisdom.

Simply not true. When in doubt read the manual!

You need to read the following parts of it: Ex 20:16 De 5:20 Pr 12:17 14:5 19:5,9 21:28 25:18 Mt 15:19 19:18 Mr 10:19 Lu 18:20 Ro 13:9 Not only do you need to read them, you need to start making some small attempt to DO them. — Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667 A false witness is worse than no witness at all.

Response:

So for you life is chemicals reacting? I think you need to add a couple of features. A nice scientific definition of life is: 1. Self sustaining 2. Self replicating 3. Subject to Darwinian evolution. In the past medical people have tried to introduce animal organs and blood into humans with only failure(eg. baboon hearts, pig heart valves, sheep blood, etc). All they needed to do was to read what God has declared in I Cor 15:39 above. But such is the lack of wisdom today as well as the source of all wisdom.

How very odd. When you need a valve replacement there are essentially three treatments, structural adjustments to improve valve efficiency (kind of like a valve job), a mechanical valve, and a pig valve. The usefulness of the pig valve replacement is more than 10 years. Hardly a failure. When in doubt read the manual!

Scientists are busily writing the manual; until published, please read the various manuscripts found in the scientific journals. Joe

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – pontificated: Animals & People "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." I Cor 15:39 Gdo declares that flesh(Greek-sarx) is different. Along with the term flesh goes DNA. As DNA is examinined and analyzed(and this is far from complete today) we do find a substantial difference between man, beasts, fish and birds. Hmmm. The genetic similarity between man and chimpanzees is what? 96 – 97%? The similarities are often more striking than the differences. And yet, that 5% makes for thousands and thousands of differences while strongly supporting evolution theory. — Pastor Dave Raymond "I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation." – Psalm 119:99 / o{}xxxxx[]:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" – Ephesians 6:17

In the Roman Catholic denomination of Christianity , the patron saint of nature and all living things is St. Francis of Assisi . Proverbs 12 : 10 says that " A righteous man regards the life of his animal , but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel ." Animals are neither to be tortured nor neglected , and they are to be killed as quickly and as painlessly as possible only for the sake of food and commercial items . Animals are not to be hunted to extinction . Revelation 11 : 18 says that God will destroy those who destroy the earth . Psalm 104 and Psalm 148 in the Old Testament have many uplifting verses praising the beauty of God’s creation , which , according to Genesis chapters 1 – 2 , God made all of it to be good . One day the seas might be turned into large lakes . Some of the verses of Ezekiel , chapter 47 , say that the Dead Sea , an extremely salty lake , will one day be turned into a fresh water lake, with as many kinds of fish living in its waters as there are in the Mediterranean Sea. Jesus Christ , who was God Himself in the body of a man when He was on earth [ the Gospel of St. John 1 : 1 - 5 ] , once miraculously fed 5000 adult males , besides the women and children , on the shores of the large fresh water lake called the Sea of Galilee , also known as Lake Gennesaret or Lake Tiberias , and He also walked on the surface of Lake Galilee by means of a miracle [ Matthew 14 : 13 - 36 ] . If God wanted to , He could make whales live in large fresh water lakes with a never ending supply of food , because nothing is impossible with God [ see Mark 10 : 27 ] . Somewhere in the verses of Isaiah , chapter 11 , it is said that one day the lion will be turned into a harmless herbivore , and that children will play with poisonous snakes , and not be hurt by them . The Caspian Sea , a large salt lake that is about nine tenths the size of the state of California in area , has seals , porpoises , tortoises , and alligators living in its waters , although over the last few centuries they have nearly been hunted to extinction . The Caspian Sea was once connected to the Seven Seas in prehistoric times , although continental drift eventually enclosed the prehistoric Tethys Sea . Lake Baikal or Baykal , a large fresh water lake that is little bit more than three quarters the size of Switzerland in area , also has seals living in its waters . Lake Baikal is located far inland in Russian Siberia , and is connected to the distant Arctic Ocean by the Angara River , which was much wider in prehistoric times before continental plate movement or tectonics narrowed the river . Albrecht Ploum in his book called " Natural Mirrors of the Universe " [ Spiegelbilder des Universums ] , likened the shape of the human embryo to Pangaea , the prehistoric world super continent that existed 200 million years ago , before the individual continents split apart . Pangaea was surrounded by a world ocean called Panthalassa , much as the human embryo is surrounded in the watery womb , supplied with food , water , and oxygen by the umbilical cord . Although Adam was made in the image of God , so was Eve , although indirectly , since God made Eve out of one of the ribs of Adam . I personally believe in the Creation story of the Old Testament book of Genesis as a parable , not as literal facts of history [ see Matthew 13 : 10 - 17 , for an explanation by Jesus Christ for the purpose of parables ] . A literal interpretation of the Bible can sometimes lead to sin . For example , according to a literal interpretation of the Bible , the children of Adam and Eve in order to produce offspring would have been guilty of the sin of incest , as would the grandchildren of Noah . God warned Adam , and Adam presumably warned Eve , not to eat the fruit of forbidden knowledge , that is , the knowledge of what the difference between right and wrong is , and the knowledge of what true death is , i.e. , eternal damnation of the soul and body . The rest of the living things were all made good by God , and the animals did not lose their innocence by eating the fruit of forbidden knowledge [ see Genesis chapters 1 - 3 ] . The talking and cunning snake in the Garden of Eden was Satan , the fallen angel , in disguise [ see Revelation 12 : 7 - 9 ] . When animals do something violent , they do it in ignorance of the knowledge of what the difference between right and wrong is , and therefore in innocence , whereas when humans do something violent , they do it in knowledge , and therefore with a guilty conscience . Although eating both animals and plants is morally acceptable for humans , eating only plants is even better [ see Genesis 1 : 29 - 30 ]. God , who was powerful enough to create the universe out of the nothingness of space by the Big Bang event many billions of years ago , is also powerful enough to suspend the laws of physics , which He created , or at least allowed to evolve within certain set rules , by means of miracles . God is indeed the eternal , with no beginning and no end , timeless , omnipotent , omniscient , perfect being who is the uncaused first cause of Aristotle [ see the Acts of the Apostles , chapter 17 : 16 - 34 ] . St. Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 3 : 2 that his brethren should pray for Christian evangelists to be saved from "unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith." So reason and faith do go together. God is good and perfect because He is the supreme being. The goodness of God is reflected in Sigmund Freud’s concept of the superego [ the conscience ], when compared with the ego [ the rational intellect ] and the id [ the instinct ].

Response:

pontificated: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Animals & People "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." I Cor 15:39 Gdo declares that flesh(Greek-sarx) is different. Along with the term flesh goes DNA. As DNA is examinined and analyzed(and this is far from complete today) we do find a substantial difference between man, beasts, fish and birds. Hmmm. The genetic similarity between man and chimpanzees is what? 96 – 97%? The similarities are often more striking than the differences.

And yet, that 5% makes for thousands and thousands of differences while strongly supporting evolution theory. — Pastor Dave Raymond "I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation." – Psalm 119:99 / o{}xxxxx[]:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" – Ephesians 6:17

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – pontificated: pontificated: Animals & People "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." I Cor 15:39 Gdo declares that flesh(Greek-sarx) is different. Along with the term flesh goes DNA. As DNA is examinined and analyzed(and this is far from complete today) we do find a substantial difference between man, beasts, fish and birds. Hmmm. The genetic similarity between man and chimpanzees is what? 96 – 97%? The similarities are often more striking than the differences. And yet, that 5% makes for thousands and thousands of differences. For example suppose we make two computer programs. Each has 100 lines of instruction. On one we make the last line: "Reward the operator" On the other we make the last line: "Kill the operator" Well, they are 99% the same however the outcomes are 100% different. True indeed.

Point of your brain dead analogy being? I can write two programs which share no common lines of code, but the outcome is 100% identical. Seppo P.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And yet, that 5% makes for thousands and thousands of differences. No one saying that we are not different, or not more advanced. Yes… that 3-4% different is HUGE… after all, it takes one single mutation in one single chromosome to mutate an organism. But the fact that we share more that 95% of the SAME DNA with the great apes HAS to account for something! Yes. A common designer. When you look at two types of automobile, did the designer use some thing other than a wheel? Did he use putty instead of metal? Did he use a chipmunk in a wheel, instead of an engine? Aren’t all these things based on the same materials and principles? Yet one can tow 5 tons and the other is luxurious. The designer started with the same basic materials and designed two different vehicles, that share a lot in common. But they are not the same. Of course it could have been the same committee of designers working from an agreed upon template. Or some of the design work could have been franchised just like the Japanese and Russion knock-offs of other designs.

Or, a single piece of steel could have evolved into a truck.

Response:

pontificated: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – pontificated: Animals & People "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." I Cor 15:39 Gdo declares that flesh(Greek-sarx) is different. Along with the term flesh goes DNA. As DNA is examinined and analyzed(and this is far from complete today) we do find a substantial difference between man, beasts, fish and birds. Hmmm. The genetic similarity between man and chimpanzees is what? 96 – 97%? The similarities are often more striking than the differences. And yet, that 5% makes for thousands and thousands of differences. For example suppose we make two computer programs. Each has 100 lines of instruction. On one we make the last line: "Reward the operator" On the other we make the last line: "Kill the operator" Well, they are 99% the same however the outcomes are 100% different.

True indeed.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Animals & People "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." I Cor 15:39 Gdo declares that flesh(Greek-sarx) is different. Along with the term flesh goes DNA. As DNA is examinined and analyzed(and this is far from complete today) we do find a substantial difference between man, beasts, fish and birds. Now DNA is the code of life but is not life itself. As an example when a living thing dies all the chemicals for life are still present yet there is no animation or life present. This quality called life is missing an nothing can bring it back. However, when a creature is conceived this attribute is present and growth occurs proceeding from that life. In the past medical people have tried to introduce animal organs and blood into humans with only failure(eg. baboon hearts, pig heart valves, sheep blood, etc). All they needed to do was to read what God has declared in I Cor 15:39 above. But such is the lack of wisdom today as well as the source of all wisdom. When in doubt read the manual!

Oh for God’s sake, read something on the subject before you post! E.g., horse insulin, just for starters.

Response:

For example suppose we make two computer programs. Each has 100 lines of instruction. On one we make the last line: "Reward the operator" On the other we make the last line: "Kill the operator" Well, they are 99% the same however the outcomes are 100% different.

Response:

pontificated: Hmmm. The genetic similarity between man and chimpanzees is what? 96 – 97%? The similarities are often more striking than the differences. And yet, that 5% makes for thousands and thousands of differences. Heck, 3% was the difference between winning the War on Terror and running away with our tail between our legs.

Assuming that is correct, that is a good point.

Response:

Hmmm. The genetic similarity between man and chimpanzees is what? 96 – 97%? The similarities are often more striking than the differences. And yet, that 5% makes for thousands and thousands of differences. Heck, 3% was the difference between winning the War on Terror and running away with our tail between our legs.

Winning the war on terror? It isn’t won, and likely won’t be won, at least not in our lifetimes.

Response:

pontificated: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – pontificated: Animals & People "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." I Cor 15:39 Gdo declares that flesh(Greek-sarx) is different. Along with the term flesh goes DNA. As DNA is examinined and analyzed(and this is far from complete today) we do find a substantial difference between man, beasts, fish and birds. Hmmm. The genetic similarity between man and chimpanzees is what? 96 – 97%? The similarities are often more striking than the differences. And yet, that 5% makes for thousands and thousands of differences. No one saying that we are not different, or not more advanced. Yes… that 3-4% different is HUGE… after all, it takes one single mutation in one single chromosome to mutate an organism. But the fact that we share more that 95% of the SAME DNA with the great apes HAS to account for something!

Yes. A common designer. When you look at two types of automobile, did the designer use some thing other than a wheel? Did he use putty instead of metal? Did he use a chipmunk in a wheel, instead of an engine? Aren’t all these things based on the same materials and principles? Yet one can tow 5 tons and the other is luxurious. The designer started with the same basic materials and designed two different vehicles, that share a lot in common. But they are not the same.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – pontificated: pontificated: Animals & People "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." I Cor 15:39 Gdo declares that flesh(Greek-sarx) is different. Along with the term flesh goes DNA. As DNA is examinined and analyzed(and this is far from complete today) we do find a substantial difference between man, beasts, fish and birds. Hmmm. The genetic similarity between man and chimpanzees is what? 96 – 97%? The similarities are often more striking than the differences. And yet, that 5% makes for thousands and thousands of differences. No one saying that we are not different, or not more advanced. Yes… that 3-4% different is HUGE… after all, it takes one single mutation in one single chromosome to mutate an organism. But the fact that we share more that 95% of the SAME DNA with the great apes HAS to account for something! Yes. A common designer. When you look at two types of automobile, did the designer use some thing other than a wheel? Did he use putty instead of metal? Did he use a chipmunk in a wheel, instead of an engine? Aren’t all these things based on the same materials and principles? Yet one can tow 5 tons and the other is luxurious. The designer started with the same basic materials and designed two different vehicles, that share a lot in common. But they are not the same.

Of course it could have been the same committee of designers working from an agreed upon template. Or some of the design work could have been franchised just like the Japanese and Russion knock-offs of other designs.

Response:

As a fundamentalist, he really doesn’t expect you to take him seriously. And as a matter of fact, he may not want you to. You see, in his world view, you are "perishing" and he is "saved". He is "serving God" by putting forward calls for you to be saved and thinks he is spreading abroad God’s message. But he is ignorant enough that he cannot possibly engage you directly. He puts forward his nonsense — often largely copied from other sources. So he ignores your comments. They are beneath him. After all, he is "saved" and you aren’t, so whatever you say is of the devil and unimportant. And since he will not engage you one on one, he finds it useful to have a shotgun approach. He fills his "gospel gun" with spiritual buckshot and blasts away, hoping that he will hit a target and someone will believe and be saved. It really doesn’t matter to him that he is lying about evolution and about others. He is saved, so he is "of the truth", and you aren’t, so you are of "that wicked one, the father of lies". He believes that whatever pops out of his mouth *must* be true, and anything you say must be a lie or a deception. And he is desperately afraid of his enemy, the devil, so he will likely not even read your responses! That he might be wrong in anything does not even cross his mind. And if by chance it does, it doesn’t matter. He has the "true" perspective of anything he sees and you don’t. Fundamentalism is at its heart a frightened response to a changing world. People do not know how to handle change, and so they close their minds and hearts, preferring to choose what they understand as "truth" — whether it is actually true or not. They may become militant and try to force others to accept their own version of "truth" and demonize everyone else who disagrees with them. Many people say that they "believe what the Bible says", but very many people disagree on what it says! Needless to say, every person does what is right in his own eyes — but with an internal conviction that he or she is right even if all the rest of the world disagrees. Fundamentalism is also apocalyptic in nature. They tend to rejoice over the hope of the return of the Lord — not so much because the Lord has returned and they shall be with Him, but rather because they will get to see judgment on their enemies, those who disagreed with and mocked them or scoffed them or otherwise "persecuted" them for "Jesus’ sake". I am a former fundamentalist. I am a Christian, and that will never change. But I see the attitudes and actions of these frightened people as antithetical to what Christianity really is and ought to be. They have perverted faith to temporal certainty, and perverted justice to judgment on their enemies. And they no longer learn. There are some fundamentalists who do not fit this mold, but they are less fundamentalist than they think! Regards, Raymond E. Griffith

Response:

winning the War on Terror

Yeah, honey, we’re losing that one. 100,000 innocent people dead, and no sign of Osama. Try to keep up, if you’re not too busy training the deaf to tune pianos.

Response:

Except you lost as you have made terrorism greater than it was. — Alan "Ferrit" Ferris ()’.’.’() ( (T) ) ( ) . ( ) (")_(")

Response:

No one saying that we are not different, or not more advanced. Yes… that 3-4% different is HUGE… after all, it takes one single mutation in one single chromosome to mutate an organism. But the fact that we share more that 95% of the SAME DNA with the great apes HAS to account for something!

Response:

Heck, 3% was the difference between winning the War on Terror and running away with our tail between our legs. — Teresita aka Ruby Redinger http://web.newsguy.com/rubyred

Response:

And yet, that 5% makes for thousands and thousands of differences.

Response:

You stupid shit, pig valves have been a great success. As to sheep blood and baboon hearts, you’ll have to give a source for that and as everyone here knows, you aren’t too swift at giving sources, now are you IDon’tKnowShit?

Response:

Animals & People "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." I Cor 15:39

Ec 3: 18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. {that God

First American Thanksgiving in Florida?

admin — Fri, 26 Nov 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Suspect if you really examine there were a number of times meals were shared. Some good tourist history in your post. Try a google search. Not Spanish St Augustine but most likely French Jacksonville/St Augustine area. http://www.nps.gov/timu/education_guide/clash_cultures/cc_background_… "In 1562, Jean Ribault was sent by France to explore the New World, and on May 1 his ships entered the River of May, now known as the St. Johns River. His men erected a column near the river’s mouth claiming Florida for France. In 1564, when the French civil war subsided, three vessels left France under the leadership of Rene de Laudonniere to settle in northeast Florida. The ships arrived at the River of May in June, where they were welcomed by the native population, the Timucuans. A triangular fort was constructed near the river shore and small thatch buildings were constructed to house the settlers. The area was named "la Caroline" in honor of France’s 14 year-old king, Charles IX." http://www.floridahistory.org/floridians/french.htm http://www.jacksonvillestory.com/Fort%20Caroline%20and%20the%20French… http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/DAILYF/2001/09/daily-09-20-2001.shtml Relations were good between the French Protestants and Timucua. Prior to the butchery of the "hertic" Protestants by the Roman Catholic Spanish (pre 1565) the French had alliances with the various Native American groups. The few French that survived the slaughter by the Spanish were those who claimed catholicism, a few artisans, young boys, and musicians. A few others were sold as slaves in Havana. Later a few returned to seek vengeance joining with local Native Americans and were somewhat sucessful. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ‘Grinch’ gives Florida credit for first Thanksgiving By Natalie Troyer THE WASHINGTON TIMES For years, Virginians have protested history books’ teaching the Old Dominion’s children that America’s first Thanksgiving was celebrated in Massachusetts in 1621.

Adam & Eve. Were they human pre Fall?

admin — Mon, 18 Oct 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here in alt.atheism (aa) one of those perennials has emerged again: Adam & Eve: were they guilty? Ok, why post this to alt.atheism where this question is completely hypthetical since they don’t believe Adam and Eve to be anything but Myth? And why of all the Christian groups to the Roman Catholic Group which is among the least likely to interpret the story of Adam and Eve literally? That question revolves around the issue of whether without a "knowledge of good and evil" A & E could be legitimately held culpable for the apple business. Its a bit of a red herring; if you take the story on its terms of course they can be held culpable, God gets to set the standards. If you take the story on your own terms then there is no clear answer to the question. That raises a wider issue, and the one I’d like to explore here … if anyone is interested. I have a feeling that "without a knowledge of good and evil" means, amongst other things, no moral sense, which in turn means no capacity for empathy (yes, a bit of a leap, but that’s what we’re here for?!). It means no moral sense in the sense that they were not endowed with an intrinsic understanding of what was right and what was wrong; however it was not really needed since they had but one command from God. They would have lacked empathy as we know it by simple virtue that had Adam and Eve been real, they would not have experienced any of the things that brings empathy too us; you can’t understand the pain of the other unless you can experience pain yourself. If that’s the case, then I think it’s not going too far to regard A & E as what were once called psychopaths though these days "Antisocial personality disorder" (APD) seems to be the term. No Society to be anti-social against. Think a better way to view them would be small children. What are the characteristics of someone who exhibits APD? "Essentially, they violate social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret in order to take what they want and do as they please." What social norms? There were only 2 of them in the story. They were allowed to do as they please except eat fruit from that one tree. http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/article.php?artID=292 So the question: if A & E had no moral sense, from a Christian perspective I wonder if they could be considered human. Only if you don’t consider small children human either. — Bill If the knowledge of good and evil was imparted by an act of magic, isn’t it legitimate to assume that A & E were incapable of it until the magic act? Without it, would experience have imparted the ability to empathize? Without it, why would obedience be of importance?

Were they incapable of reasoning out what was good or evil on their own prior to the event? Sure that is a reasonable position to take. Prior to eating of the Tree Adam and Eve could not reason out the morality of an individual event on their own, but the story clearly shows that they knew that there were negative consequences to disobeying a specific command. Essentially Adam and Eve could be treated as a 3 year old. A 3 year old does not know why something is good or bad and may not be able to predict what their parents would consider good or bad, but on certain issues that their parents have instructed them on, they have no doubt that an action is good or bad. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To illustrate, we once had an Australian shepherd that was normally quite obedient, but I found that when she got far enough away, she would look back when I called a command, and if I stood completely still, she would often ignore the command. If I moved when she looked back, she would obey. I think her eyesight was such that she was unable to see me at a distance unless I moved, and her reasoning, if such it can be called, was that if she couldn’t see me, I couldn’t see her. It wasn’t a question of right or wrong for her, just one of satisfying the current impulse. I didn’t create her, but I recognized it would be futile to punish her for something that was a part of her nature. It would be far worse to train her to behave in a particular way, then punish her for doing so. Wouldn’t it be doubly ridiculous for her to be punished for behavior she had been created to display by the very being who had created her?

Ah but the point here is that your dog might have been confused by the fact it ocould not see you; it might have not been sure you issued the command or whatever. However if your Dog saw you and received a command it would obey, not because it understood the command but because you gave it. That was sort of what Adam and Eve were like; they could obey or disobey commands and they knew they should obey, they just didn’t fully understand why. — Bill

Response:

on 18 Oct 2004 in alt.atheism, Therion Ware dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted: Here in alt.atheism (aa) one of those perennials has emerged again: Adam & Eve: were they guilty? I’m quite convinced they never existed, which means the basis for most western religion is a metaphor.

"Adam" means "a human being" (Gen. 2.5) or mankind collectively (Gen. 1.26). Only for the purposes of myth does it become a proper name. In order words, Adam is Everyman. A & E are in themselves representative figures of the whole human race. The mythic Adam and Eve serve as mirrors in which we may see our own reflection, what we are like and what we have become. If you have any imagination at all, it’s not difficult to identify with the leading man or lady in the story. Methodios (Denny) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Vic Sagerquist aa#2011 Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department The whole foundation of Christianity is based on the idea that intellectualism is the work of the Devil. Remember the apple on the tree? Okay, it was the Tree of Knowledge. "You eat this apple, you’re going to be as smart as God. We can’t have that." [Frank Zappa]

Response:

alt.atheism on 18 Oct 2004 in alt.atheism, Therion Ware dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted: Here in alt.atheism (aa) one of those perennials has emerged again: Adam & Eve: were they guilty? I’m quite convinced they never existed, which means the basis for most western religion is a metaphor.

Sure. Of course they didn’t exist. But I’ve never let something like that stand between me and an argument, ah, free and frank exchange of views…. — "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You." – Attrib: Pauline Reage. Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion? See:

Response:

alt.atheism Here in alt.atheism (aa) one of those perennials has emerged again: Adam & Eve: were they guilty? Ok, why post this to alt.atheism where this question is completely hypthetical since they don’t believe Adam and Eve to be anything but Myth?

There’s something wrong with hypothetical questions? Not having a life, I thought it was quite interesting… And why of all the Christian groups to the Roman Catholic Group which is among the least likely to interpret the story of Adam and Eve literally?

Precisely. More likely to get an intelligent answer from a Christian perspective which one could compare and contrast with any answer from alt.bible. That question revolves around the issue of whether without a "knowledge of good and evil" A & E could be legitimately held culpable for the apple business. Its a bit of a red herring; if you take the story on its terms of course they can be held culpable, God gets to set the standards.

Well, it’s a frequently stated position, but one I can’t recall seeing a half-way decent justification for in as much as while God may set the standards culpability does in many instances depend upon not only knowing, but understanding, the law. In some circumstances, for instance, under UK law one cannot be found guilty if one does not know the difference between right and wrong. I suppose one might argue the prohibition against eating of the fruit of the tree was what many systems of law call a "strict liability offence" – but even if one does, it still seems If you take the story on your own terms then there is no clear answer to the question.

Which is, as you might imagine, the way I like it! That raises a wider issue, and the one I’d like to explore here … if anyone is interested. I have a feeling that "without a knowledge of good and evil" means, amongst other things, no moral sense, which in turn means no capacity for empathy (yes, a bit of a leap, but that’s what we’re here for?!). It means no moral sense in the sense that they were not endowed with an intrinsic understanding of what was right and what was wrong; however it was not really needed since they had but one command from God.

The point is frequently made, and well taken. However, it seems to me that without a sense of right and wrong God giving a command to A & E is not too different from me giving my cats a command not to touch the chicken on the table. This is to say that without a sense of right and wrong and all that implies A & E had no way of evaluating that command and in fact any prohibition would be meaningless to them. They would have lacked empathy as we know it by simple virtue that had Adam and Eve been real, they would not have experienced any of the things that brings empathy too us; you can’t understand the pain of the other unless you can experience pain yourself.

I’d tend to agree, but for different reasons. If that’s the case, then I think it’s not going too far to regard A & E as what were once called psychopaths though these days "Antisocial personality disorder" (APD) seems to be the term. No Society to be anti-social against.

Which is why I’d prefer the term psychopath in this instance. Think a better way to view them would be small children.

Which raises another issue! What an adult is, and their capacities are determined by their genetics, upbringing and environment. If, for example, you don’t teach a child any form of language by a certain age, they will never master language (see instances of "wolf children" for instance). If you blindfold a child from birth to age 7, and then un blindfold them, they will never make sense of what they see[1]. Now, A & E were created adults. They had no cultural background in the sense we understand it, and they had no upbringing in the normally understood sense of the term. Yet the Genesis account depicts them as, apart from the good and evil capacity, as more or less fully functional human beings. QED a cultural background and "environmental history" (if only in the sense of the sum of what they were) were implanted into them at the moment of their creation and this was a false, if necessary, history. I think that, and the lack of a knowledge of good and evil makes a convincing case that they could not in any rational sense be held culpable for the apple problem. What are the characteristics of someone who exhibits APD? "Essentially, they violate social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret in order to take what they want and do as they please." What social norms? There were only 2 of them in the story. They were allowed to do as they please except eat fruit from that one tree.

But again, how were they supposed to evaluate this prohibition given that they saw no difference between right and wrong, and that any cultural/environmental/genetic sum – that which made them what they were – upon which they might base that decision was created along with them? http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/article.php?artID=292 So the question: if A & E had no moral sense, from a Christian perspective I wonder if they could be considered human. Only if you don’t consider small children human either.

Opinions differ, particularly amongst parents around bedtime, I understand. More seriously, this raises the question: "what is a human?". It’s a very tricky issue. I’d be willing to bet I could find a hole that you wouldn’t be happy with, in any definition you’d could come up with. Which I suppose brings us to abortion and euthanasia. **** [1]. There’s quite a famous case on this. A woman had been blind since just after birth. In the 80s they came up with a surgical cure, and, lo, her sight was restored. *But* it turned out she couldn’t recognise many things *unless* she touched them. I think the main example was a teapot. She could look at one but not identify it unless she could feel it. — "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You." – Attrib: Pauline Reage. Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion? See:

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s not my religion, so I don’t have to rationalise it based on the presumption that it’s the truth and then throw a hissy fit at those who don’t. I don’t see why the religious can’t see it as just a story without it challenging their faith. I’m pretty sure that even 3,000 years ago they saw it as just a story. All cultures had creation myths: I doubt the ancient Greeks _really_ believed the Earth emerged from the sea on the back of a giant turtle. Most probably didn’t give it a thought, and that was a just-so story they told the kids. ===Most Jews I am aware of do not believe the story, but the Pauline salvationist mystery cult was tied to it as if it were a historical event. — L. Only the fundamentalists. Normal Christians treat it as a just-so story. Like "Why the Leopard got his Spots". The first time I met anybody who took it seriously, I thought they were joking (two colleagues I had lunch with maybe 10 years ago). Theyw ere mortally offended.

===I said the Pauline salvationist mystery cult. Not all Christians take it seriously, but it is founded on a literal belief in the sin and fall of "Adam & Eve". — L.

Response:

===Before any intelligent discussion is possible, it should be settled whether this Is just a critique of a story, of its Christian interpretation, or is it stipulated that the story is the account of the real life of a real couple produced by a real supernatural being? I’m puzzled by your assertion. You seem to be saying a matter can be discussed intelligently only among individuals who have a similar viewpoint. I’m obviously mistaken, as that would be nonsense, so I’ll ask for a clarification.

===Not at all. The viewpoints may differ. Put the subject of discussion ought to be the same, understood by each. – L.

Response:

alt.atheism Here in alt.atheism (aa) one of those perennials has emerged again: Adam & Eve: were they guilty? That question revolves around the issue of whether without a "knowledge of good and evil" A & E could be legitimately held culpable for the apple business. Apples were not known in the Middle East.

An inaccuracy in the Bible?! For shame!!! Given the standard iconography of the religion of El and Yah (pagan deities long before the Israelites merged them in to a single god), the fruit was most likely a pomegranite, which was the symbol for sex, fertility and wisdom. In European symbolism, the apple has the association of birth, death and wisdom, which is probably how the apple can be associated with Eden.

Yes. The Persephone and Hades myth, and the pomegranate seeds, for instance. That raises a wider issue, and the one I’d like to explore here … if anyone is interested. I have a feeling that "without a knowledge of good and evil" means, amongst other things, no moral sense, which in turn means no capacity for empathy (yes, a bit of a leap, but that’s what we’re here for?!). I’ve seen this discussed academically. The real iconography of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil has nothing to do with moral principle; it has to do with sex. You will notice that the first mention of sexuality occurs *after* the Fall, and the "sin" of the Fall is propigated by virtue of sexual reproduction.

That’s true. But then again, moral principle and sex have always been combined in Christian thinking. Augustine’s "Inter faeces et urinam nascimur ridemus" for instance. In the worldview that gave rise to the Genesis story, sex and divine wisdom were closely related; the pleasure of the sex act and the bliss of orgasm were tools given by the gods for gaining knowledge from the gods. That is why sex was such an important part of the early Middle Eastern religions, from the hierogamos of king and goddess to the temple prostitutes. The ultimate symbol of this divine intercourse — specifically, the intercourse of mortal male and divine female — was the ripe pomegranite.

I’m becoming rather sympathetic to "that old time religion"…. Only after they ceased being virgins did Adam and Eve realize that they were naked. Interesting that they would have chosen fig leaves to hid behind; most species of figs have leaves covered in sharp, very fine hairs that tend to embed in the skin and break off, giving rise to a very itchy rash (think stinging nettle here.) Penance for violating the "no fucking allowed" rule? God only knows.

And He rarely splits on a mate! — "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You." – Attrib: Pauline Reage. Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion? See:

Response:

===Before any intelligent discussion is possible, it should be settled whether this Is just a critique of a story, of its Christian

interpretation, or is it stipulated that the story is the account of the real life of a real couple produced by a real supernatural being?

I’m puzzled by your assertion. You seem to be saying a matter can be discussed intelligently only among individuals who have a similar viewpoint. I’m obviously mistaken, as that would be nonsense, so I’ll ask for a clarification. — Marvin To reply, burn off fog.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here in alt.atheism (aa) one of those perennials has emerged again: Adam & Eve: were they guilty? That question revolves around the issue of whether without a "knowledge of good and evil" A & E could be legitimately held culpable for the apple business. That raises a wider issue, and the one I’d like to explore here … if anyone is interested. I have a feeling that "without a knowledge of good and evil" means, amongst other things, no moral sense, which in turn means no capacity for empathy (yes, a bit of a leap, but that’s what we’re here for?!). If that’s the case, then I think it’s not going too far to regard A & E as what were once called psychopaths though these days "Antisocial personality disorder" (APD) seems to be the term.

Can one be antisocial if there is no society? What are the characteristics of someone who exhibits APD? "Essentially, they violate social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret in order to take what they want and do as they please."

Since A & E were supposedly the only two humans in existence, I am hard pressed to imagine how they *could violate social norms. Everything they did was the norm. Who were they taking what from? http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/article.php?artID=292 So the question: if A & E had no moral sense, from a Christian perspective I wonder if they could be considered human.

Even if you grant that A & E had a mental disorder, which I don’t think has been proven given the above definition and lack of society, I don’t consider people with mental disorders non-human. Weird, maybe, but human nonetheless.

The Nature of Innocence

admin — Thu, 14 Oct 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Please quit playing stupid. The demon in Genesis is referred to as God or the Lord. That is the character. Or are you just stupid? — Bush Lied. Anybody But Bush. Regime change begins at home.

Response:

That isn’t obvious at all. I doubt they knew what "die" meant either. It had nothing to do with the understanding of right and wrong. For instance (all analyses are odious, says the sage) if you were in the military and assigned work to subordinates as a disciplinary measure, there is a good chance you would not know that is against the Uniform Code of Military Justice (right and wrong).

Nonsense. You would know right and wrong exist. You would not chop off someone’s hand or shoot someone as a disciplinary measure. They were children, and treated atrociously by god in the story. JP Who, or what, is "god?"

The demon in the book of genesis. — Bush Lied. Anybody But Bush. Regime change begins at home.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tell me about this demon. This should be very interesting. It is referred to alternatively as "god" or "the lord". JP That tells me nothing. Who is god or lord? The demon in the book of genesis. JP Please force yourself to be direct. What demon and what is the citation? Please quit playing stupid. The demon in Genesis is referred to as God or the Lord. That is the character. Or are you just stupid? JP Your language brightly displays your internal anger. It has disengaged your intellect. I will no longer dialogue with you on this thread because you seem to be drenched with conflicts.

Run away, twit, run away. — Bush Lied. Anybody But Bush. Regime change begins at home.

Response:

JP Your language brightly displays your internal anger. It has disengaged your intellect. I will no longer dialogue with you on this thread because you seem to be drenched with conflicts. . . . Be in peace. Jerry

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – God warned Adam , and Adam presumably warned Eve , not to eat the fruit of forbidden knowledge , that is , the knowledge of what the difference between right and wrong is , and the knowledge of what true death is , i.e. , eternal damnation of the soul and body . In my mind what is funny about this story is that Adam and Eve couldn’t have had any notion that they were doing something wrong before they ate from the tree that gave then the notion of right and wrong. JP You missed the point. The point is the failure to obey. It was not until they failed to obey that they learned the difference between right and wrong. Why should they have known that the failure to obey was wrong? JP The meaning of obedience was obviously understood by the man and the woman! That isn’t obvious at all. I doubt they knew what "die" meant either. JP Had God not told them? It had nothing to do with the understanding of right and wrong. For instance (all analyses are odious, says the sage) if you were in the military and assigned work to subordinates as a disciplinary measure, there is a good chance you would not know that is against the Uniform Code of Military Justice (right and wrong). Nonsense. You would know right and wrong exist. You would not chop off someone’s hand or shoot someone as a disciplinary measure. JP Was my example too difficult? If you were told it was against the UCMJ, then you would know. God told the man and the woman what not to do.

I guess god was surprised when they used their free will that God insisted they have. hahah They were children, and treated atrociously by god in the story. JP Who, or what, is "god?" The demon in the book of genesis. JP Tell me about this demon. This should be very interesting.

no such thing as demons. otherwise there may be several gods. Honkey Bill

Response:

JP Please force yourself to be direct. What demon and what is the citation?

Response:

Tell me about this demon. This should be very interesting. It is referred to alternatively as "god" or "the lord". JP That tells me nothing. Who is god or lord?

The demon in the book of genesis. — Bush Lied. Anybody But Bush. Regime change begins at home.

Response:

Tell me about this demon. This should be very interesting. It is referred to alternatively as "god" or "the lord".

JP That tells me nothing. Who is god or lord?

Response:

Tell me about this demon. This should be very interesting.

It is referred to alternatively as "god" or "the lord". — Bush Lied. Anybody But Bush. Regime change begins at home.

Response:

JP Had God not told them? It had nothing to do with the understanding of right and wrong. For instance (all analyses are odious, says the sage) if you were in the military and assigned work to subordinates as a disciplinary measure, there is a good chance you would not know that is against the Uniform Code of Military Justice (right and wrong). Nonsense. You would know right and wrong exist. You would not chop off someone’s hand or shoot someone as a disciplinary measure.

JP Was my example too difficult? If you were told it was against the UCMJ, then you would know. God told the man and the woman what not to do. They were children, and treated atrociously by god in the story. JP Who, or what, is "god?" The demon in the book of genesis.

JP Tell me about this demon. This should be very interesting.

Response:

JP The meaning of obedience was obviously understood by the man and the woman! It had nothing to do with the understanding of right and wrong. For instance (all analyses are odious, says the sage) if you were in the military and assigned work to subordinates as a disciplinary measure, there is a good chance you would not know that is against the Uniform Code of Military Justice (right and wrong). They were children, and treated atrociously by god in the story.

JP Who, or what, is "god?" . . . Blessings, Jerry http://www.dslextreme.com/users/jerry53/

Response:

In my mind what is funny about this story is that Adam and Eve couldn’t have had any notion that they were doing something wrong before they ate from the tree that gave then the notion of right and wrong. — Bush Lied. Anybody But Bush. Regime change begins at home.

Response:

God warned Adam , and Adam presumably warned Eve , not to eat the fruit of forbidden knowledge , that is , the knowledge of what the difference between right and wrong is , and the knowledge of what true death is , i.e. , eternal damnation of the soul and body . In my mind what is funny about this story is that Adam and Eve couldn’t have had any notion that they were doing something wrong before they ate from the tree that gave then the notion of right and wrong.

JP You missed the point. The point is the failure to obey. It was not until they failed to obey that they learned the difference between right and wrong. . . . Blessings, Jerry http://www.dslextreme.com/users/jerry53/

Response:

Why should they have known that the failure to obey was wrong? They were children, and treated atrociously by god in the story. — Bush Lied. Anybody But Bush. Regime change begins at home.

Response:

Although Adam was made in the image of God , so was Eve , although indirectly , since God made Eve out of one of the ribs of Adam . I personally believe in the Creation story of the Old Testament book of Genesis as a parable , not as literal facts of history [ see Matthew 13 : 10 - 17 , for an explanation by Jesus Christ for the purpose of parables ] . A literal interpretation of the Bible can sometimes lead to sin . For example , according to a literal interpretation of the Bible , the children of Adam and Eve in order to produce offspring would have been guilty of the sin of incest , as would the grandchildren of Noah . God warned Adam , and Adam presumably warned Eve , not to eat the fruit of forbidden knowledge , that is , the knowledge of what the difference between right and wrong is , and the knowledge of what true death is , i.e. , eternal damnation of the soul and body . The rest of the living things were all made good by God , and the animals did not lose their innocence by eating the fruit of forbidden knowledge [ see Genesis chapters 1 - 3 ] . The talking and cunning snake in the Garden of Eden was Satan , the fallen angel , in disguise [ see Revelation 12 : 7 - 9 ] . When animals do something violent , they do it in ignorance of the knowledge of what the difference between right and wrong is , and therefore in innocence , whereas when humans do something violent , they do it in knowledge , and therefore with a guilty conscience . Although eating both animals and plants is morally acceptable for humans , eating only plants is even better [ see Genesis 1 : 29 - 30 ]. In the Roman Catholic denomination of Christianity , the patron saint of nature and all living things is St. Francis of Assisi . Proverbs 12 : 10 says that " A righteous man regards the life of his animal , but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel ." Animals are neither to be tortured nor neglected , and they are to be killed as quickly and as painlessly as possible only for the sake of food and commercial items . Animals are not to be hunted to extinction . Revelation 11 : 18 says that God will destroy those who destroy the earth . Psalm 104 and Psalm 148 in the Old Testament have many uplifting verses praising the beauty of God’s creation , which , according to Genesis chapters 1 – 2 , God made all of it to be good . One day the seas might be turned into large lakes . Some of the verses of Ezekiel , chapter 47 , say that the Dead Sea , an extremely salty lake , will one day be turned into a fresh water lake, with as many kinds of fish living in its waters as there are in the Mediterranean Sea. Jesus Christ , who was God Himself in the body of a man when He was on earth [ the Gospel of St. John 1 : 1 - 5 ] , once miraculously fed 5000 adult males , besides the women and children , on the shores of the large fresh water lake called the Sea of Galilee , also known as Lake Gennesaret or Lake Tiberias , and He also walked on the surface of Lake Galilee by means of a miracle [ Matthew 14 : 13 - 36 ] . If God wanted to , He could make whales live in large fresh water lakes with a never ending supply of food , because nothing is impossible with God [ see Mark 10 : 27 ] . Somewhere in the verses of Isaiah , chapter 11 , it is said that one day the lion will be turned into a harmless herbivore , and that children will play with poisonous snakes , and not be hurt by them . The Caspian Sea , a large salt lake that is about nine tenths the size of the state of California in area , has seals , porpoises , tortoises , and alligators living in its waters , although over the last few centuries they have nearly been hunted to extinction . The Caspian Sea was once connected to the Seven Seas in prehistoric times , although continental drift eventually enclosed the prehistoric Tethys Sea . Lake Baikal or Baykal , a large fresh water lake that is little bit more than three quarters the size of Switzerland in area , also has seals living in its waters . Lake Baikal is located far inland in Russian Siberia , and is connected to the distant Arctic Ocean by the Angara River , which was much wider in prehistoric times before continental plate movement or tectonics narrowed the river . Albrecht Ploum in his book called " Natural Mirrors of the Universe " [ Spiegelbilder des Universums ] , likened the shape of the human embryo to Pangaea , the prehistoric world super continent that existed 200 million years ago , before the individual continents split apart . Pangaea was surrounded by a world ocean called Panthalassa , much as the human embryo is surrounded in the watery womb , supplied with food , water , and oxygen by the umbilical cord . God , who was powerful enough to create the universe out of the nothingness of space by the Big Bang event many billions of years ago , is also powerful enough to suspend the laws of physics , which He created , or at least allowed to evolve within certain set rules , by means of miracles . God is indeed the eternal , with no beginning and no end , timeless , omnipotent , omniscient , perfect being who is the uncaused first cause of Aristotle [ see the Acts of the Apostles , chapter 17 : 16 - 34 ] . St. Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 3 : 2 that his brethren should pray for Christian evangelists to be saved from "unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith." So reason and faith do go together. God is good and perfect because He is the supreme being. The goodness of God is reflected in Sigmund Freud’s concept of the superego [ the conscience ], when compared with the ego [ the rational intellect ] and the id [ the instinct ].

Response:

Sowing & Reaping

admin — Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes Where do you get off poking fun at a stroke victim? Remember, you’re on usenet. Don’t be so sensitive. Remember, we’re on usenet, where you get to be you and I get to be me. Of course you have the right to be however you like… We’re all sensitive in our own way, I suppose.. I’m just making the point that if you get your feelings hurt easily by random people on usenet, you might be in the wrong place. Thanks for the advice. But I have been in here for about 3 years now, and I have seen that there are decent folks, and there are folks who prowl looking for those whom they perceive as "weak" to pounce on and "play with." I choose to be in here so that I can preach the gospel as I understand it. And I will also defend myself from those jerks who see me as a piece of tasty meat. jw You are completly safe, John. These poor lost souls have no teeth.

And you two have no brain.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sowing & Reaping Here is a priciple(somethng that applies to everyone, everywhere and at all times) that is a sure as the sunrise. Every farmer counts on this priciple to give him crops. He also knows that whatever seed he sows will be the crop he will harvest(wheat, rye, oats). He knows that what he sows will give him more than he sows, after he sows. This priciple also applies to those who sow lies, discord, hatred, halftruths, etc. Later on they will reap more of what they have sown of the same seed(type). This can also be true of he who sows kindness, helpfulness, truth and compassion. One cannot change this priciple no matter how much they scream, become angry, try and blame others or whatever they attempt. It always comes back on us and just like the bills they must be paid in full. What you sow is what you will also reap(Gal 6:7). What seed are you sowing today? An excellent article with many grains of truth. Love, sensible2me Thank you. Sorry about the mis-typing: "principle"

That’s okay I saw it for what it was intended to be.

Response:

You are completly safe, John. These poor lost souls have no teeth.

Neither do you. You are unable to cause harm to anyone showing your lies to be the false witness they actually are. But God, whose name you use in support of your own vanity, does have the ability to punish evil. What you should be flat on your faith thanking Him for is His mercy in not punishing you immediately. — Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667 A false witness is worse than no witness at all.

Response:

You are completly safe, John. These poor lost souls have no teeth.

Response:

Thank you. Sorry about the mis-typing: "principle"

Response:

Inappropriate knowledge shows culpability. Understanding the inner workings of certain crimes may demonstrate a person’s deep curiousity of crime itself, or it may show that person’s personal knowledge — a knowledge gained from experience. At any rate, it’s interesting to see all the federal heat on internet crimes recently. For example this week’s news is buzzing with more crackdowns on various kinds of thieving (see ABC news files: http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040825_1481.html) But I found the following most interesting of all: Geeky Legal Beagles Nail Spammers A battalion of lawyer geeks is taking on spam, spyware, security screw-ups, incomprehensible software licenses, useless privacy policies and many other ills plaguing computer users. The charge is being led by New York state’s Attorney General Eliot Spitzer. Spitzer and the lawyers that staff the attorney general’s Internet bureau think crime isn’t any less prosecutable just because it happens online. They’re fighting spammers by charging them with fraud and slapping down companies that don’t live up to their privacy policies. They’re also contesting the validity of the lengthy, legalese-packed software licenses that users have to click OK and agree to before applications will install. Spitzer and crew even think that bad website security is a crime punishable by law. —for the full story, visit http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,58939,00.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes x-no-archive: yes Weatherly x-no-archive: yes Sowing & Reaping Here is a priciple(somethng that applies to everyone, everywhere and at all times) that is a sure as the sunrise. Every farmer counts on this priciple to give him crops. He also knows that whatever seed he sows will be the crop he will harvest(wheat, rye, oats). He knows that what he sows will give him more than he sows, after he sows. This priciple also applies to those who sow lies, discord, hatred, halftruths, etc. Later on they will reap more of what they have sown of the same seed(type). This can also be true of he who sows kindness, helpfulness, truth and compassion. One cannot change this priciple no matter how much they scream, become angry, try and blame others or whatever they attempt. It always comes back on us and just like the bills they must be paid in full. What you sow is what you will also reap(Gal 6:7). What seed are you sowing today? I don’t know what seed I’m sowing but since you used the word ‘priciple’ three times I must ask you just what is a ‘priciple’ )))? Since I didn’t see this original post, thanks, IKH. And might I suggest that you switch over to Agent if you aren’t using it, and that you turn on the spell checker? Regards! And God bless! jw I checked on your suggesion "Agent" the first time you made it and I found it was only for Windows. I use Macs. My old fingers don’t always hit the right keys anymore(lay it to a small stroke a few years back I suppose). I have found that I am consistent in my typing errors however and that gives me a little comfort… Sheesh, what a pack of liars. You are consistent in your ignorance. Are you attempting to tell me that ‘priciple’ is a typing error? BS! It doesn’t come close to any typing method I’ve ever known. The fact is, IDon’tKnowShit, that you are just dumb! Where do you get off poking fun at a stroke victim? You jerk! Perhaps you’ll have more consideration when YOU have had several strokes. My buddy in my building has a withered left hand from a stoke, and he can hardly use his left hand at all. When I asked him if he could type on a computer, he said, "I can’t type. The fingers don’t work that well." My dad had 3 strokes, and his whole left side, from the eyebrow to the toes was frozen. If I have several strokes perhaps I will. I think , however, from the posts that IDKS makes, that his problem is spelling and not typing. I know that yours is lying but I have never paid much attention to your typing as I am always amazed by your lies. I am not a liar, and that makes you one.

LOL! You might be the biggest liar of them all. Say, is your buddy still working on that a-bomb in his garage?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: news.netfront.net!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.g iganews.com!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!ply1.onvoy!onvoy.com!feed.news.qwest.net! news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,alt.religi on.christianity,alt.religion,christian.roman-catholic X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.5.186.200 Xref: news.netfront.net alt.religion.christian.baptist:365077 alt.religion.christian.biblestudy:167101 alt.religion.christianity:91287 alt.religion:54474 x-no-archive: yes Where do you get off poking fun at a stroke victim? Remember, you’re on usenet. Don’t be so sensitive. Remember, we’re on usenet, where you get to be you and I get to be me. Of course you have the right to be however you like… We’re all sensitive in our own way, I suppose.. I’m just making the point that if you get your feelings hurt easily by random people on usenet, you might be in the wrong place. Thanks for the advice. But I have been in here for about 3 years now,

Before you started deleting tour posts from google, as jw you were noted to have your first post in Aug, 2002. Hardly 3 years. Been here since 95 myself, so what. and I have seen that there are decent folks, and there are folks who prowl looking for those whom they perceive as "weak" to pounce on and "play with."

People like you are always looking for someone to dominate in any manner they can. Your problem here is that most have seen your basic type before, so you dominate no one. I choose to be in here so that I can preach the gospel as I understand

Pity is, you don’t understand it so make up your fluff version, or even worse, resort to your Cliff Notes for talking about it. Hell, you can not even discuss the core concepts of the myth, like the messiah ion the first century, or today come to that. it. And I will also defend myself from those jerks who see me as a piece of tasty meat.

Roadkill maybe, there is nothing tasty about you & you resemble more of an amoeba that anything that would have a backbone according to your posting history. Just another accident by a small animal on a white carpet, that is the jw most of us know. jw

walksalone who suspects a DC comic book has more truth & decency in it than an average jw post. — The Hadith Qudsi 6 The first of people against whom judgment will be pronounced on the Day of Resurrection will be a man who died a martyr. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. The Almighty will say: And what did you do about them? He will say: I fought for you until I died a martyr. He will say: You have lied – you did but fight that it might be said [of you]: He is courageous. And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire.

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"J W – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes x-no-archive: yes x-no-archive: yes Sowing & Reaping Here is a priciple(somethng that applies to everyone, everywhere and at all times) that is a sure as the sunrise. Every farmer counts on this priciple to give him crops. He also knows that whatever seed he sows will be the crop he will harvest(wheat, rye, oats). He knows that what he sows will give him more than he sows, after he sows. This priciple also applies to those who sow lies, discord, hatred, halftruths, etc. Later on they will reap more of what they have sown of the same seed(type). This can also be true of he who sows kindness, helpfulness, truth and compassion. One cannot change this priciple no matter how much they scream, become angry, try and blame others or whatever they attempt. It always comes back on us and just like the bills they must be paid in full. What you sow is what you will also reap(Gal 6:7). What seed are you sowing today? I don’t know what seed I’m sowing but since you used the word ‘priciple’ three times I must ask you just what is a ‘priciple’ )))? Since I didn’t see this original post, thanks, IKH. And might I suggest that you switch over to Agent if you aren’t using it, and that you turn on the spell checker? Regards! And God bless! jw I checked on your suggesion "Agent" the first time you made it and I found it was only for Windows. I use Macs. My old fingers don’t always hit the right keys anymore(lay it to a small stroke a few years back I suppose). I have found that I am consistent in my typing errors however and that gives me a little comfort… Ah, hah! I suggest you write to ForteInc and ask if they’ll ever have a Mac version. It’s supposed to be the best program of its type out there. In the meantime, if I offended you in any way, forgive me, please. I know about bad typing. If you looked up "the world’s worst typist" in the encyclopedia, it’s a picture of me. Seriously, I have "medication palsy". In my youth, in my healthier days, I used to volunteer to do things for folks with shaky hands. I now have to find someone with steady hands to help ME. On bad days, I can hardly feed myself. The folks in here have commented more than once on the "writer who doesn’t even bother with the spell checker". Well, I crash a LOT. And half the time, when I reinstall, I forget to turn on the spell checker. And sometimes, when I have a dozen windows open, I hit something wrong and I send without even getting to spell check. "Do the best you can, and shoot the screamers…" ;-) God bless, jw No, you cannot offend a dead man you know… Yes, old age is not for sissies as my 93 old mother used to say. Thanks for the reminder. You have reminded me of two sayings from my youth. My sister came up with one, my mother the other. "Real life ain’t for sissies." came from my sister, when my mom was belly aching about something. My mom then made the comment, "Don’t knock old age; we don’t all get there!" The importand aspect of these NGs is to tell the truth of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, and you may have noticed that in spite of the ongoing attacks on virtually every conceivable topic, I continue to shake it off (sometimes after a few choice words), and I come back with the gospel. Many of these poor lost souls may never hear it except here so even with typing and grammer errors it is getting out. Yes. Paul said that he would present his feeble message (it wasn’t feeble), he would be a Jew to the Jews, a Roman to the Romans, a Greek to the Greeks. So that, by ANY means possible, he might bring SOME into the kingdom! And he DID THAT! Keep plugging away. God has a new, perfect body on order for us. Won’t that be grand? Yep! I will no longer be sickly (have been my entire life; at least now I know what it’s called). I will have a perfect body, and a healthy, disease-free mind.

And a tiny, non-functioning wee-wee…. Paul

Response:

Hey, you guys didn’t give YOURSELVES your strokes….GOD planned on having them happen to you before time began. I’ve had my lows. I’ve also had my highs, I’ve had my miracles, and I’ve had some real joys, which I wouldn’t trade for all the money in the world. You are free to be you, and I’ll remain me, born again, and going to heaven, where I am sure YOU would be miserable.

Perhaps if God blesses ME with a massive stroke, I’ll be as happy as you are… Paul

Response:

An excellent article with many grains of truth. Love, sensible2me

Response:

Where do you get off poking fun at a stroke victim? Remember, you’re on usenet. Don’t be so sensitive. Remember, we’re on usenet, where you get to be you and I get to be me.

Of course you have the right to be however you like… We’re all sensitive in our own way, I suppose.. I’m just making the point that if you get your feelings hurt easily by random people on usenet, you might be in the wrong place.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes x-no-archive: yes Sowing & Reaping Here is a priciple(somethng that applies to everyone, everywhere and at all times) that is a sure as the sunrise. Every farmer counts on this priciple to give him crops. He also knows that whatever seed he sows will be the crop he will harvest(wheat, rye, oats). He knows that what he sows will give him more than he sows, after he sows. This priciple also applies to those who sow lies, discord, hatred, halftruths, etc. Later on they will reap more of what they have sown of the same seed(type). This can also be true of he who sows kindness, helpfulness, truth and compassion. One cannot change this priciple no matter how much they scream, become angry, try and blame others or whatever they attempt. It always comes back on us and just like the bills they must be paid in full. What you sow is what you will also reap(Gal 6:7). What seed are you sowing today? I don’t know what seed I’m sowing but since you used the word ‘priciple’ three times I must ask you just what is a ‘priciple’ )))? Since I didn’t see this original post, thanks, IKH. And might I suggest that you switch over to Agent if you aren’t using it, and that you turn on the spell checker? Regards! And God bless! jw I checked on your suggesion "Agent" the first time you made it and I found it was only for Windows. I use Macs. My old fingers don’t always hit the right keys anymore(lay it to a small stroke a few years back I suppose). I have found that I am consistent in my typing errors however and that gives me a little comfort… Ah, hah! I suggest you write to ForteInc and ask if they’ll ever have a Mac version. It’s supposed to be the best program of its type out there. In the meantime, if I offended you in any way, forgive me, please. I know about bad typing. If you looked up "the world’s worst typist" in the encyclopedia, it’s a picture of me. Seriously, I have "medication palsy". In my youth, in my healthier days, I used to volunteer to do things for folks with shaky hands. I now have to find someone with steady hands to help ME. On bad days, I can hardly feed myself. The folks in here have commented more than once on the "writer who doesn’t even bother with the spell checker". Well, I crash a LOT. And half the time, when I reinstall, I forget to turn on the spell checker. And sometimes, when I have a dozen windows open, I hit something wrong and I send without even getting to spell check. "Do the best you can, and shoot the screamers…" ;-) God bless, jw

No, you cannot offend a dead man you know… Yes, old age is not for sissies as my 93 old mother used to say. The importand aspect of these NGs is to tell the truth of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Many of these poor lost souls may never hear it except here so even with typing and grammer errors it is getting out. Keep plugging away. God has a new, perfect body on order for us. Won’t that be grand?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes x-no-archive: yes Sowing & Reaping Here is a priciple(somethng that applies to everyone, everywhere and at all times) that is a sure as the sunrise. Every farmer counts on this priciple to give him crops. He also knows that whatever seed he sows will be the crop he will harvest(wheat, rye, oats). He knows that what he sows will give him more than he sows, after he sows. This priciple also applies to those who sow lies, discord, hatred, halftruths, etc. Later on they will reap more of what they have sown of the same seed(type). This can also be true of he who sows kindness, helpfulness, truth and compassion. One cannot change this priciple no matter how much they scream, become angry, try and blame others or whatever they attempt. It always comes back on us and just like the bills they must be paid in full. What you sow is what you will also reap(Gal 6:7). What seed are you sowing today? I don’t know what seed I’m sowing but since you used the word ‘priciple’ three times I must ask you just what is a ‘priciple’ )))? Since I didn’t see this original post, thanks, IKH. And might I suggest that you switch over to Agent if you aren’t using it, and that you turn on the spell checker? Regards! And God bless! jw I checked on your suggesion "Agent" the first time you made it and I found it was only for Windows. I use Macs. My old fingers don’t always hit the right keys anymore(lay it to a small stroke a few years back I suppose). I have found that I am consistent in my typing errors however and that gives me a little comfort… Sheesh, what a pack of liars. You are consistent in your ignorance. Are you attempting to tell me that ‘priciple’ is a typing error? BS! It doesn’t come close to any typing method I’ve ever known. The fact is, IDon’tKnowShit, that you are just dumb! Where do you get off poking fun at a stroke victim? You jerk! Perhaps you’ll have more consideration when YOU have had several strokes. My buddy in my building has a withered left hand from a stoke, and he can hardly use his left hand at all. When I asked him if he could type on a computer, he said, "I can’t type. The fingers don’t work that well." My dad had 3 strokes, and his whole left side, from the eyebrow to the toes was frozen.

If I have several strokes perhaps I will. I think , however, from the posts that IDKS makes, that his problem is spelling and not typing. I know that yours is lying but I have never paid much attention to your typing as I am always amazed by your lies.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes x-no-archive: yes Sowing & Reaping Here is a priciple(somethng that applies to everyone, everywhere and at all times) that is a sure as the sunrise. Every farmer counts on this priciple to give him crops. He also knows that whatever seed he sows will be the crop he will harvest(wheat, rye, oats). He knows that what he sows will give him more than he sows, after he sows. This priciple also applies to those who sow lies, discord, hatred, halftruths, etc. Later on they will reap more of what they have sown of the same seed(type). This can also be true of he who sows kindness, helpfulness, truth and compassion. One cannot change this priciple no matter how much they scream, become angry, try and blame others or whatever they attempt. It always comes back on us and just like the bills they must be paid in full. What you sow is what you will also reap(Gal 6:7). What seed are you sowing today? I don’t know what seed I’m sowing but since you used the word ‘priciple’ three times I must ask you just what is a ‘priciple’ )))? Since I didn’t see this original post, thanks, IKH. And might I suggest that you switch over to Agent if you aren’t using it, and that you turn on the spell checker? Regards! And God bless! jw I checked on your suggesion "Agent" the first time you made it and I found it was only for Windows. I use Macs. My old fingers don’t always hit the right keys anymore(lay it to a small stroke a few years back I suppose). I have found that I am consistent in my typing errors however and that gives me a little comfort… Sheesh, what a pack of liars. You are consistent in your ignorance. Are you attempting to tell me that ‘priciple’ is a typing error? BS! It doesn’t come close to any typing method I’ve ever known. The fact is, IDon’tKnowShit, that you are just dumb! Where do you get off poking fun at a stroke victim? Remember, you’re on usenet. Don’t be so sensitive.

It’s what John does, instead of questioning why God was so shitty to him and his dad and his friend….or is a stroke some kind of special GIFT from Him? Paul

Response:

Remember, you’re on usenet. Don’t be so sensitive.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes Sowing & Reaping Here is a priciple(somethng that applies to everyone, everywhere and at all times) that is a sure as the sunrise. Every farmer counts on this priciple to give him crops. He also knows that whatever seed he sows will be the crop he will harvest(wheat, rye, oats). He knows that what he sows will give him more than he sows, after he sows. This priciple also applies to those who sow lies, discord, hatred, halftruths, etc. Later on they will reap more of what they have sown of the same seed(type). This can also be true of he who sows kindness, helpfulness, truth and compassion. One cannot change this priciple no matter how much they scream, become angry, try and blame others or whatever they attempt. It always comes back on us and just like the bills they must be paid in full. What you sow is what you will also reap(Gal 6:7). What seed are you sowing today? I don’t know what seed I’m sowing but since you used the word ‘priciple’ three times I must ask you just what is a ‘priciple’ )))? Since I didn’t see this original post, thanks, IKH. And might I suggest that you switch over to Agent if you aren’t using it, and that you turn on the spell checker? Regards! And God bless! jw I checked on your suggesion "Agent" the first time you made it and I found it was only for Windows. I use Macs. My old fingers don’t always hit the right keys anymore(lay it to a small stroke a few years back I suppose). I have found that I am consistent in my typing errors however and that gives me a little comfort…

Sheesh, what a pack of liars. You are consistent in your ignorance. Are you attempting to tell me that ‘priciple’ is a typing error? BS! It doesn’t come close to any typing method I’ve ever known. The fact is, IDon’tKnowShit, that you are just dumb!

Response:

I checked on your suggesion "Agent" the first time you made it and I found it was only for Windows. I use Macs. My old fingers don’t always hit the right keys anymore(lay it to a small stroke a few years back I suppose). I have found that I am consistent in my typing errors however and that gives me a little comfort…

Response:

…quite right, it goes back tens of thousands of years to early man and it was the ‘evil spirits’ that spoiled his crops so he dreamed up ‘gods’ to counter the evil spirits. From these simple beginnings sprang the largest commercial swindle ever in man’s existence This priciple also applies to those who sow lies, discord, hatred, halftruths, etc. Later on they will reap more of what they have sown of the same seed(type). This can also be true of he who sows kindness, helpfulness, truth and compassion.

True and religion is in no way necessary to achieve these noble characteristics One cannot change this priciple no matter how much they scream, become angry, try and blame others or whatever they attempt. It always comes back on us and just like the bills they must be paid in full. What you sow is what you will also reap(Gal 6:7). What seed are you sowing today?

the seeds of truth

Response:

He knows that what he sows will give him more than he sows, after he sows. …quite right, it goes back tens of thousands of years to early man and it was the ‘evil spirits’ that spoiled his crops so he dreamed up ‘gods’ to counter the evil spirits. From these simple beginnings sprang the largest commercial swindle ever in man’s existence

No, it’s non-spiritual in concept, at least its origin. It’s a farmer’s saying: you harvest what you plant (and cultivate, i.e. maintain). I.e. you don’t harvest figs if you planted grapes. This priciple also applies to those who sow lies, discord, hatred, halftruths, etc. Later on they will reap more of what they have sown of the same seed(type). This can also be true of he who sows kindness, helpfulness, truth and compassion. True and religion is in no way necessary to achieve these noble characteristics

Which is why those who are not religious ask if you are religious if you live a noble life? One cannot change this priciple no matter how much they scream, become angry, try and blame others or whatever they attempt. It always comes back on us and just like the bills they must be paid in full. What you sow is what you will also reap(Gal 6:7). What seed are you sowing today? the seeds of truth

Not necessarily: more like a discussion that might eventually lead to the truth. — Horngren’s Observation: Among economists, the real world is often a special case.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sowing & Reaping Here is a priciple(somethng that applies to everyone, everywhere and at all times) that is a sure as the sunrise. Every farmer counts on this priciple to give him crops. He also knows that whatever seed he sows will be the crop he will harvest(wheat, rye, oats). He knows that what he sows will give him more than he sows, after he sows. This priciple also applies to those who sow lies, discord, hatred, halftruths, etc. Later on they will reap more of what they have sown of the same seed(type). This can also be true of he who sows kindness, helpfulness, truth and compassion. One cannot change this priciple no matter how much they scream, become angry, try and blame others or whatever they attempt. It always comes back on us and just like the bills they must be paid in full. What you sow is what you will also reap(Gal 6:7). What seed are you sowing today?

Whatever it is, as I am doing both the sowing and reaping, God has no claim whatsover on the crop (refer to the parable of the Little Red Hen). Paul

Response:

I don’t know what seed I’m sowing but since you used the word ‘priciple’ three times I must ask you just what is a ‘priciple’ )))?

Response:

Sowing & Reaping Here is a priciple(somethng that applies to everyone, everywhere and at all times) that is a sure as the sunrise. Every farmer counts on this priciple to give him crops. He also knows that whatever seed he sows will be the crop he will harvest(wheat, rye, oats). He knows that what he sows will give him more than he sows, after he sows. This priciple also applies to those who sow lies, discord, hatred, halftruths, etc. Later on they will reap more of what they have sown of the same seed(type). This can also be true of he who sows kindness, helpfulness, truth and compassion. One cannot change this priciple no matter how much they scream, become angry, try and blame others or whatever they attempt. It always comes back on us and just like the bills they must be paid in full. What you sow is what you will also reap(Gal 6:7). What seed are you sowing today?

Response:

Christianity is paganism

admin — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Joseph Wheless points out these similarities between Mithraism (origins perhaps 2000 years before Jesus) and Christianity and Judaism. The Catholic Encyclopedia apparently unabashedly backs him up. No wonder the pagans smiled. No wonder they had to burn. http://www.thenazareneway.com/Forgery%20in%20Christianity/forgery_in_… Mithraism: -Jesuit priest said "The highest religious result to which human reason unaided by Revelation can attain"! (Catholic Encyclopedia ii, 154-156, passim.) -divinely revealed Monotheism, or worship of a One God, -Having a divinely revealed Moral Code comparable to the Christian -a physical and moral dualism -human free will -virtues of truth and open-handed generosity -good-fellowship and brotherliness. -The army of darkness attacks and deposes Oromasdes (Ahura Mazda) They were however thrown back into hell, whence they escape, wander over the face of the earth and afflict man. … As evil spirits ever lie in wait for hapless man, he needs a friend and savior, who is Mithra. -Mithra is the Mediator between God and Man. -Against all impurity,against all evil within and without. -They believed in the immortality of the soul -sinners after death were dragged down to hell -the just passed through the seven spheres of the planets, leaving at each planet a part of their lower humanity until, as pure spirits, they stood before God. -At the end of the world Mithra will descend to earth -and will make all drink the beverage of immortality. -The fathers conducted the worship. -The chief of the fathers, a sort of pope,who always lived at Rome, was called ‘Pater Patratus’ -The members below the grade of pater called one another ‘brother’ -social distinctions were forgotten in Mithraic unity -A sacred meal was celebrated of bread and haoma juice for which in the West wine was substituted. -Three times a day prayer was offered the sun towards east, south, or west according to the hour. -Sunday was kept holy in honor of Mithra -The 25 December was observed as his birthday -had an elevating and invigorating effect on its followers. -these essential identities are found in the Vedas and Avesta, of maybe two thousand years before Christianity -Zoroaster, who, gave final form to the creed, lived some 600 years before the Christ -Mithra saved the world by sacrificing a bull-[just as the Jews saved themselves] Christ by sacrificing himself. -connection between the angels of the Bible, and the great ‘archangels’ or ‘Amesha-Spentas’ of the Zend-Avesta -The belief in guardian angels ("cherubim")-Ahura Mazda is a pure Spirit; his chief attributes are eternity, wisdom, truth, goodness, majesty, power. -He is the creator of all good creatures-not, however, of Evil (better idea) -Ahura Mazda dwells in Eternal Light -Ahura Mazda qualities of omniscience, all-sovereignty, all goodness -Evil Spirit destined to destruction at the end of time. -Spento Mainyus, THE HOLY SPIRIT, and Ahura Mazda are synonymous throughout the Avesta. -Vohu Manah, a spirit, is conceived as the ‘SON OF THE CREATOR and identified with the Alexandrian LOGOS [of John i, 1]. -associated in a trio [TRINITY] Rashnu (Right, Justice), and MITHRA -through His Prophet Zarathushtra (Zoroaster) gave man His Divine Revelation and law. -Evil spirit tempted Zoroaster himself,promising him as a reward the sovereignty of the whole world -necessity of goodness in thought, word, and deed -virtues of religion, truthfulness, purity, and generosity to the poor -At the end of time, will come Saoshyant (SAVIOR) under whom will occur the Resurrection of the dead, the General Judgment,the renewal of the whole world -a mighty combat takes place between Soashyant [the "Savior"] and his followers and the demon hosts of the Evil Spirit, who are utterly routed and destroyed forever. A similarity between Mithra and Christ struck even early observers, such as Justin, Tertullian, and other Fathers, and in recent times has been urged to prove that Christianity is but an adaptation of Mithraism, or at least the outcome of the same religious ideas and aspirations. –Catholic Encyclopedia So, perhaps Christianity has so many contradictions because they had to make up a slightly different story but didn’t have 2000 years to get the bugs out like Mithraism did. Christianity made a mistake combining 4 different gospels in one book. Jeff (99% atheist, but thinking of becoming a follower of Mithraism

Response:

Joseph Wheless points out these similarities between Mithraism (origins perhaps 2000 years before Jesus) and Christianity and Judaism. …

The Seven Vials

admin — Sat, 07 Aug 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Just who are these "commentators"? I know of no reputable teacher of eschatology who gives any such interpretation. But then you know it all, don’t you Mike! After all, you are (I mean was a ) catholic

And this has exactly *what* to do with answering the question? Rather I *was* a Roman Catholic (by birth) or a raging alcoholic (which I wasn’t)before coming to salvation by the grace of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ makes very little difference. God’s Word says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor. 5:17) Do I "know it *all*"?? Hardly… but I know cultic propaganda when I see it. So, too, do the readers now! The fact is that Frank can’t name these supposed "commentators" who form the majority of teachers on eschatology (in order to qualify as "most"). He has been caught red handed in a lie. His and Yours, Mike Bugal Heartland Christian Ministries http://www.hcm2.org

Response:

And this has exactly *what* to do with answering the question? Rather I

*was* a Everything – can a leopard change its spots? Roman Catholic (by birth) or a raging alcoholic (which I wasn’t)before coming to salvation by the grace of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ makes very little difference. God’s Word says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor. 5:17)

Well it is about time you did that – and obey God while you’re at it. Do I "know it *all*"?? Hardly… but I know cultic propaganda when I see it. So, too, do the readers now! The fact is that Frank can’t name these supposed "commentators" who form the majority of teachers on eschatology (in order to qualify as "most"). He has been caught red handed in a lie.

One thing I do know, is that you did NOT read the message I posted fully, you missed this at the end of what I posted:- "We are greatly indebted to the 19th century historian Dr. J. A. Wylie, LL.D., for the information on history and fulfilled prophecy. Dr. Wylie’s book on the 7 vials was entitled: The Seventh Vial and was published in the year 1840." Now, seeing as I am NOT the author, I do NOT have to answer your stupid questions – If you really want the answer to your question contact Dr. J. A. Wylie, LL.D Another thing that is typical of your ilk, if you can’t discredit the message, discredit the messenger, that is all that the daughters of the whore of babylon are capable of. Now Mike Bugal take your so-called Christian ministries and do satan’s dirty work elsewhere you plonker, as you will not desecrate my screen directly again. Heartland Christian Ministries http://www.hcm2.org

This is the gospel according to Mike Bugal << PLONK <

Response:

Now, seeing as I am NOT the author, I do NOT have to answer your stupid questions – If you really want the answer to your question contact Dr. J. A. Wylie, LL.D

Why then post something that you yourself don’t have the answers for? When posting on Biblical principles, we’re expected to backup what we say with scripture. When asked questions, to know the answers. Therefore why post this long message if you yourself don’t have answers? NiTeHaWK

Response:

Sex who? You? Not b*****y likely sonnyboy NiTeHaWK

I think you misspelled your name S H I T E H A W K << PLONK <

Response:

Now, seeing as I am NOT the author, I do NOT have to answer your stupid questions – If you really want the answer to your question contact Dr. J. A. Wylie, LL.D Now Mike Bugal take your so-called Christian ministries and do satan’s dirty work elsewhere you plonker, as you will not desecrate my screen directly again.

Biblical Christians can only *hope* to be kill-filed by cultists such as Frank. That way they are free to show the cultic nature of their teachings without being reviled. However, it’s very rare that such things actually happen. Usually the cultist will say that they are doing it but eventually can’t fight the unholy spirit that motivates them and make a direct response that shows them to be liars yet again. We’ll see how Frank does, although given that his teachings are so far out and so *obviously* hogwash I’m not sure just how much time I’ll take refuting it. By the way, his response above demonstrates two more Propaganda Techniques. Anyone recognize them? His and Yours, Mike Bugal Heartland Christian Ministries http://www.hcm2.org

Response:

Just who are these "commentators"? I know of no reputable teacher of eschatology who gives any such interpretation.

But then you know it all, don’t you Mike! After all, you are (I mean was a ) catholic

Response:

"And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image" Almost all commentators agree that this is a description of the French Revolution.

He must have seen this on the back of a box of Crackerjack……. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just who are these "commentators"? I know of no reputable teacher of eschatology who gives any such interpretation. This is a very common propaganda techniques called "vagueness" and "bandwagon" in which a proponent of a certain position seeks to show their belief to be the right one by majority rule… while never naming names so that the biases of the so-called "commentators" may be taken into consideration. Usually when pressed for names and specifics none are forthcoming. What is actually meant is: "The limited range of authors that I read who already agree with my position on other matters do so here as well!" These techniques, while commonly used in secular advertising, are mainly used within the religious world by those groups that most Christians would label "cults". I am reminded of an aside comment once made by Charles Haddon Spurgeon, "The Bible tends to throw much light on the commentaries."… in this case the "commentators". His and Yours, Mike Bugal Heartland Christian Ministries http://www.hcm2.org

Response:

Just who are these "commentators"? I know of no reputable teacher of eschatology who gives any such interpretation. This is a very common propaganda techniques called "vagueness" and "bandwagon" in which a proponent of a certain position seeks to show their belief to be the right one by majority rule… while never naming names so that the biases of the so-called "commentators" may be taken into consideration. Usually when pressed for names and specifics none are forthcoming. What is actually meant is: "The limited range of authors that I read who already agree with my position on other matters do so here as well!" These techniques, while commonly used in secular advertising, are mainly used within the religious world by those groups that most Christians would label "cults". I am reminded of an aside comment once made by Charles Haddon Spurgeon, "The Bible tends to throw much light on the commentaries."… in this case the "commentators". His and Yours, Mike Bugal Heartland Christian Ministries http://www.hcm2.org

Response:

Having escaped, in tact, from the Democratic Convention, "Mike Bugal"

Trust me… had I been at the Democratic Convention I would not have "escaped intact". His and Yours, Mike Bugal Heartland Christian Ministries http://www.hcm2.org – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just who are these "commentators"? I know of no reputable teacher of eschatology who gives any such interpretation. Of COURSE not, it’s all about Frank. — The truth is out there, but it’s not interesting enough for most people.

Response:

Once again a prophesy interpreted after the fact; forced to fit the events (that really don’t seem to have much to do with it.) The followers of Nostradomus do that all the time. Yours is just one other attempt to read into Revelation; no better (and actually, probably worse) than Lindsey. All those who thought the Soviet Union was Gog (or Maggog?) have had to re-arrange their interpretations. All those who thought Y2K would be the end have scampered. Those who claimed the Common Market with it’s 10 countries are the beast with 10 horns have been overcome by history refusing to cooperate with their interpretation. And you too will be swept away, and only remembered by people like me who get amused by men trying to force their biases into the Scriptural prophesies, looking to find the time "that no man, nay not even the Son, but only the Father" knows. Because "God does not delay as we perceive it", but grants this time for His reasons. Hoping for their shortening is going against the will of God. And personally, when I examined my conscience as to why I wanted the end to come, I found nothing but selfishness, pride, animosity, and other sins. When God granted me that insight into myself, I dropped my desire for the End. It may be a good idea for you to examine your consciense, too. Tom A. "All this will come about, in God’s good time." – Capt. Nemo "End of world, end of life – is there a difference?" – me Newsgroups reduced.

Response:

"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth" (Revelation chapters 15&16). The Book of Revelation is a book of symbols. It is about the Rise, Reign, Decline and Fall of the Man of Sin or the Papal System, called in Revelation Mystery Babylon, the mother of harlots and abomination of the earth. Most of the symbols are taken from the Old Testament, and clearly explained there, or in the book itself. Babylon’s decline and fall began with the 7 vials and closely parallel the 10 plaques on Egypt that finally persuaded Pharaoh to let the people go to the promised land. A vial is a cup and everywhere in Scripture it is used to represent judgment or vengeance: Symbol = Meaning The Earth = Society in a settled or tranquil state Society The Sea = in a state of chaos or convulsion "But the wicked are like the troubled sea" (Isaiah 57:20). Rivers and = Nation and kingdoms"The waters . . . are peoples, fountains and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" (Rev. 17:15). The sun = Kings, rulers, governmental powers. Darkening of the sun = Fall of kings, rulers etc. A horn = A kingdom or nation A seat = A throne The beast = The Roman Empire revived under the Papacy "The beast that was, and is not, and yet is" (Rev. 17:8). Mark of the beast = A follower of the Pope. Mystery Babylon, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the earth = The Roman "church" First Vial "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image" Almost all commentators agree that this is a description of the French Revolution. The year was 1789, and France was in a terrible predicament. After the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre, and the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes, most of the best and brightest people were killed or driven into exile. The salt of the earth was gone . . . corruption was the inevitable result. . . . The government was bankrupt, taxation was exorbitant and the common people were starving. Instead of the true Gospel, a tirade of infidelity and atheistic propaganda came from the pens of men like Montesquieu, Voltaire and Rousseau: "From the sole of t he foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrefying sores" (Isaiah 1:6). Second Vial "And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea" France now became a sea. . . a sea of blood! The Guillotine was set up, and the Reign of Terror commenced. The Guillotine was kept busy day and night in all parts of France. Churches were destroyed, atheism was proclaimed the State religion. 24.000 priests were murdered. It was the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre in reverse. The persecutors were now the persecuted. . . . In Paris, the Guillotine was set up on the exact spot where Huguenots were once burned alive for the amusement of the king! The King and his Austrian wife Queen Marie Antoinette ended their lives on the Guillotine. Third Vial "And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of water: and they became blood" The Rise of Napoleon. The newly proclaimed French Republic was threatened on all sides by enemies. Napoleon proclaimed himself Emperor and went on a career of conquest the like of which the world had never seen. All the countries of Europe were a ffected by the Napoleonic wars. On the invasion of Italy by the French Revolutionists, the government of the Pope was overthrown. General Berthier marched on Rome, set up a Roman Republic, and laid hands on the Pope. The Sovereign Pontiff was borne away to the camp of the infidels . . . from prison to prison, and finally carried captive into France. In 1809, Napoleon declared the Pope’s temporal dominions at an end. The Papal States were annexed to the French Empire. Napoleon’s career of conquest was finally ended at Waterloo. 2 million people perished during this Revolution stage. The literal sea did become blood at this time with several great naval battles: The Nile in 1798, Copenhagen in 1801, and Trafalgar in 1805! The Fourth Vial "And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire" The next great cataclysm was the Revolution of 1848. After the defeat of Napoleon, reaction set in. The deposed kings returned to their thrones and the Pope returned to Rome. Austrian Prince Metternich was the most reactionary leader at this time – he ruled Europe with an iron fist. He set up the Council of Vienna, which restored the Papal States to the Pope, and made plans for the partition of the United States. . . . Suddenly – and without warning – Revolution broke out throughout most of the countries of Europe. It began in Paris on Feb. 23, and soon calls for Constitutional Government were heard everywhere. This request for basic human rights was violently suppressed however, and a host of the Liberals had to flee to safety in America! The Fifth Vial "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain" Fall of the Papal States. The year was 1870 . . . a milestone in world history. The Pope had just declared himself infallible when war broke out between France and Prussia. With the rapid Prussian victories, the French bayonets protecting the Pope’s temporal dominions were withdrawn, and Italy was finally united and free. This ushered in the prophetic 120 year period. With the Papacy preoccupied with recovering the lost States, and fighting Communism, the world began an unprecedented era of liberty. Sixth Vial "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the waters thereof were dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared" We believe that this Vial begins with the fall of Communism. The River Euphrates was always the traditional barrier between East and West. For the past 50 years the slogan was: The East is Red – few expected any changes in their lifetime. The collapse came as suddenly as the Revolution of 1848. Seventh Vial "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, it is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightning, and there was a great earthquake . . . And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven. . ." This is the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The resurrection of all the dead. The Day of Judgment etc., etc. The Seven Vials in summary. Vial Event Date First French Revolution begins 1789 Second Reign of Terror, Guillotine is set up 1793 Third Napoleonic Wars 1796-1815 Fourth Revolution of 1848 1848 Fifth Fall of the Papal States 1870 Sixth Fall of Communism, Satan loosed, Last Great Inquisition!! 1989-91to ???? Seventh Second Coming of Christ ???? We are greatly indebted to the 19th century historian Dr. J. A. Wylie, LL.D., for the information on history and fulfilled prophecy. Dr. Wylie’s book on the 7 vials was entitled: The Seventh Vial and was published in the year 1840.

Response:

how to hear from God

admin — Sun, 01 Aug 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

no, it doesn’t. ask god for a history lesson.

what do you mean?

Response:

The Bible says: Then Jesus said to those who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." The people answered, "We’re Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can you say,

Our town's first young amputee back from Iraq.

admin — Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I know far more about the immediate and personal cost of war than you will ever know. If true you would not naive enough to beleive Iraq had anyhting to do with terrorism.

John Kerry thought so! When people see themselves as the "elect", they can easily conclude that others are sinners. It is out of this sense of self righteousness that true believers may feel chosen to do God’s work. That’s when their will becomes God’s will, their desires become God’s desires, their wars become God’s wars.

Response:

KISS IT! PLONK!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree! they can start at your house. Good plan. Yeah! Right! We’ve got to shift the battlefield back to here! FUCK OFF! PLONK!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump. He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen. He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there. This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

I agree! they can start at your house. Good plan. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Yeah! Right! We’ve got to shift the battlefield back to here! FUCK OFF! PLONK!! I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump. He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen. He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there. This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

You can’t even understand a plain sentence, YOU FUCKING MORON!! PLONK!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know far more about the immediate and personal cost of war than you will ever know. If true you would not naive enough to beleive Iraq had anyhting to do with terrorism. — http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air — however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75) "It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law may say," Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch – commenting upon Defense Department Lawyer Will Dunham’s 56-page legalization of torture memo. If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or vote for the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the Republican Party. Ralph Nader – June 2004 – The American Conservative Magazine "But I believe in torture and I will torture you." -An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with an Iraqi prisoner. "My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed, our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the freedom of our country. -Iraqi Mahdi fighter "We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came. One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead so he wouldn’t kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried, the soldier said: "’No, stop," -Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding. "the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian Zionists and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy." -Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister "Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton’s administration for the Kosovo military action.’Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,’ Bush said." Houston Chronicle 4/9/99 "Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to destabilize their country." Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004 "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there’s a major incident and then suddenly say, ‘Oh my God, shouldn’t we be organized to deal with this?’" – Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001. "On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein’s regime the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because "diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor." Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey Bergner, Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman, William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had Baghdad on their minds." -philip (usenet) "I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam," -Richard Cheney, Kerry critic. "I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up and running – to be effective – some of its sovereignty will have to be given back, if I can put it that way, or limited by them, It’s sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they are going to allow us to exercise on their behalf and with their permission." – Powell 4/27/04 "We’re trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things obviously are not going well. You’re going to have good days and bad days." On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good moments." – Rumsfeld 4/6/04 "I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this country’s gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty’s gift to every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread of freedom." ~ Bush the Crusader RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose? BUSH: No, I’m not going to lose. RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do? BUSH: Well, I don’t plan on losing. I’ve got a vision for what I want to do for the country. changing times here in America, too., 2/8/04 "And that’s very important for, I think, the people to understand where I’m coming from, to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn’t. I’m a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with war on my mind. – pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04 "Let’s talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding these kinds of efforts. He’s had years to get good at it and we know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons. And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." – Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03 "I don’t know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the Iraqis had nuclear weapons." – Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03 "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)." – Richard Perle "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours." – Colin Powell February 24 2001 "We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful." "He threatens not the United States." "But I also thought that we had pretty much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have." ‘But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying "look what I got." He hasn’t been able to do that.’ – Colin Powell February 26 2001

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah! Right! We’ve got to shift the battlefield back to here! You clueless moron. The battlefield was never here. Bush started a new holy war in Iraq instead of finishing the job of going after the Saudi terrorists. Damn, you are dumb as a freaken brick.

precisely – more like him and we can kiss Liberty goodbye. — http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air — however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75) "It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law may say," Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch – commenting upon Defense Department Lawyer Will Dunham’s 56-page legalization of torture memo. If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or vote for the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the Republican Party. Ralph Nader – June 2004 – The American Conservative Magazine "But I believe in torture and I will torture you." -An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with an Iraqi prisoner. "My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed, our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the freedom of our country. -Iraqi Mahdi fighter "We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came. One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead so he wouldn’t kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried, the soldier said: "’No, stop," -Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding. "the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian Zionists and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy." -Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister "Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton’s administration for the Kosovo military action.’Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,’ Bush said." Houston Chronicle 4/9/99 "Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to destabilize their country." Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004 "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there’s a major incident and then suddenly say, ‘Oh my God, shouldn’t we be organized to deal with this?’" – Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001. "On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein’s regime the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because "diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor." Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey Bergner, Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman, William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had Baghdad on their minds." -philip (usenet) "I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam," -Richard Cheney, Kerry critic. "I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up and running – to be effective – some of its sovereignty will have to be given back, if I can put it that way, or limited by them, It’s sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they are going to allow us to exercise on their behalf and with their permission." – Powell 4/27/04 "We’re trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things obviously are not going well. You’re going to have good days and bad days." On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good moments." – Rumsfeld 4/6/04 "I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this country’s gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty’s gift to every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread of freedom." ~ Bush the Crusader RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose? BUSH: No, I’m not going to lose. RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do? BUSH: Well, I don’t plan on losing. I’ve got a vision for what I want to do for the country. changing times here in America, too., 2/8/04 "And that’s very important for, I think, the people to understand where I’m coming from, to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn’t. I’m a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with war on my mind. – pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04 "Let’s talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding these kinds of efforts. He’s had years to get good at it and we know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons. And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." – Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03 "I don’t know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the Iraqis had nuclear weapons." – Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03 "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)." – Richard Perle "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours." – Colin Powell February 24 2001 "We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful." "He threatens not the United States." "But I also thought that we had pretty much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have." ‘But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying "look what I got." He hasn’t been able to do that.’ – Colin Powell February 26 2001

Response:

I know far more about the immediate and personal cost of war than you will ever know.

If true you would not naive enough to beleive Iraq had anyhting to do with terrorism. — http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air — however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75) "It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law may say," Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch – commenting upon Defense Department Lawyer Will Dunham’s 56-page legalization of torture memo. If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or vote for the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the Republican Party. Ralph Nader – June 2004 – The American Conservative Magazine "But I believe in torture and I will torture you." -An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with an Iraqi prisoner. "My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed, our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the freedom of our country. -Iraqi Mahdi fighter "We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came. One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead so he wouldn’t kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried, the soldier said: "’No, stop," -Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding. "the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian Zionists and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy." -Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister "Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton’s administration for the Kosovo military action.’Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,’ Bush said." Houston Chronicle 4/9/99 "Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to destabilize their country." Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004 "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there’s a major incident and then suddenly say, ‘Oh my God, shouldn’t we be organized to deal with this?’" – Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001. "On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein’s regime the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because "diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor." Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey Bergner, Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman, William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had Baghdad on their minds." -philip (usenet) "I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam," -Richard Cheney, Kerry critic. "I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up and running – to be effective – some of its sovereignty will have to be given back, if I can put it that way, or limited by them, It’s sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they are going to allow us to exercise on their behalf and with their permission." – Powell 4/27/04 "We’re trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things obviously are not going well. You’re going to have good days and bad days." On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good moments." – Rumsfeld 4/6/04 "I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this country’s gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty’s gift to every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread of freedom." ~ Bush the Crusader RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose? BUSH: No, I’m not going to lose. RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do? BUSH: Well, I don’t plan on losing. I’ve got a vision for what I want to do for the country. changing times here in America, too., 2/8/04 "And that’s very important for, I think, the people to understand where I’m coming from, to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn’t. I’m a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with war on my mind. – pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04 "Let’s talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding these kinds of efforts. He’s had years to get good at it and we know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons. And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." – Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03 "I don’t know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the Iraqis had nuclear weapons." – Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03 "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)." – Richard Perle "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours." – Colin Powell February 24 2001 "We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful." "He threatens not the United States." "But I also thought that we had pretty much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have." ‘But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying "look what I got." He hasn’t been able to do that.’ – Colin Powell February 26 2001

Response:

Yeah! Right! We’ve got to shift the battlefield back to here!

You clueless moron. The battlefield was never here. Bush started a new holy war in Iraq instead of finishing the job of going after the Saudi terrorists. Damn, you are dumb as a freaken brick.

Response:

Naqtions expend blood and treasure in war. We are fortunate that our society has a wealth creation ethic, so we can make the choice of expending treasure first. I know far more about the immediate and personal cost of war than you will ever know. I also have a very low threshold of tolerance for fools. PLONK!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah! Right! We’ve got to shift the battlefield back to here! FUCK OFF! PLONK!! Now that’s some fear. Let our good men and more innocent civilians in the Middle East die or come home maimed so you don’t have to wait in long lines at the airport.

Response:

OH! DEAR! WEEP, MOAN, AND GNASH YOUR TEETH! WE ARE SO EVIL. I imagine you are being held prisoner in this most immoral of countries. Well, I’m going to end one little part of your misery. PLONK!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – said, directing the reply to alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US] When? Where? How? Sure you don’t mean Iran, for the moment at least, and then perhaps Syria… Shame about North Korea and Zimbabwe though… I think God for the brave men and women over the centuries that have gone into hell and back home. If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution. Groups of people have wanted the US land for many many years. Yes. Presumably Native Americans, for the most part. But are you seriously saying that Saddam was planning to *invade* the USA? They have hated us and have tried to change us into their citizens instead of having freedom. Nice rhetoric. Two points occur: First, the USA has a rather longer history of creating "friendly dictatorships" in other countries than it does of introducing democratic governments. The problem is that "friendly" means friendly to the US and not to the people of the country in question. Take a brief look at the history of South and Central America, for example. The "Del Monte" coup in Guatemala is quite instructive in this respect. Then there’s Chilie, Rios Montt, and so on and so forth…. Of course one might argue that at the cold-war time, these things were necessary to preserve US security – but are you really surprised that the – for example – the thousands of, erm, extra-judicial executions, and torture by dictatorships supported by the US in say Iran, Chilie, Guatemala and so on hasn’t left a very deep, pervasive and long-term anti-US sentiment in many parts of the world? Secondly, given the Patriot Act, Americans now have less freedom that has previously been the case. You might want to google "Night and Fog" as regards what can be done in the name of National Security, not only to non citizens, but to citizens – while it seems problematic in an ethical sense to accord citizens and non citizens different rights. But this is, of course, one of the traditional methods of terrorism. Bin Laden and fellow travelers, even if they managed a 9/11 ever month or two could never overthrow the US. But what they might do is cause the US to enact laws and practices so restrictive that the guy in the street gets so pissed off that he elects a government that is prepared to deal. I want them home too. I want AlQuieda to leave us alone. Then you’re going to, sooner or later, have to deal. Or else implement a world-wide police state that of its nature defeats the principles you’re allegedly fighting for. But of course Bin Laden had long gone beyond dealing, no longer being the analogous to say, the IRA, but rather, these days, Baader-Meinhof. Tricky, eh? But not, I think, insoluble. I want Bin Laden to get a life other than killing Americans in the name of his god. I want Saddam Hussein to go to hell to be with Hilter and the other anti American soldier killers that have tried to kill us throughout history. Well, leaving aside the Christian premise that no one, save God, has the right to judge another deserving of Hell it seems to me that unless you acknowledge the, ah, problems other people have with the US concept of freedom as applied to non-Americans within living memory, this kind of thing is never going to stop. Bin Laden could not have remained at large for so long or been able to do so much *unless* there was considerable tacit and material support for him, his group, and so on: you might then ask yourself why he enjoys such considerable support while considering that cutting off such support is not so much a police or military matter as a political, and social one. For example, do you think Iran dislikes the USA because they "hate freedom", or a lot of people have relatives that suffered, were tortured, and or executed under the Shah who was supported by the USA? But lady, it ain’t gonna stop with this war or the next. It will only stop when we are tired of fighting to stay free of them. Ah. The "Forever War". http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380708213 But you won’t understand the ref…. God bless that young man in your town. And thank God he is home now. Quite so. But equally what a pity he was told to go on what increasingly looks like a false basis. And given the recent cuts in military benefits, one wonders what his country will do for him seeing as what he has given for his country. — "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You." – Attrib: Pauline Reage. Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion? See:

Response:

Roger that! Buck

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US] I think God for the brave men and women over the centuries that have gone into hell and back home. If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution. Groups of people have wanted the US land for many many years. They have hated us and have tried to change us into their citizens instead of having freedom. I want them home too. I want AlQuieda to leave us alone. I want Bin Laden to get a life other than killing Americans in the name of his god. I want Saddam Hussein to go to hell to be with Hilter and the other anti American soldier killers that have tried to kill us throughout history. But lady, it ain’t gonna stop with this war or the next. It will only stop when we are tired of fighting to stay free of them. God bless that young man in your town. And thank God he is home now. — Wil I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump. He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen. He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there. This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US] When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first

So you admit that the attack and invasion was illegal. Good. That’s a start. If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution. How? —– –Scott in Florida

– "You don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

Response:

How long did you server in my military ~z~ ? What branch and mos also?

We gotta get them out of there. This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US] When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US

Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first Never…cause we got him first If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution. How?

—– –Scott in Florida

Response:

Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US] I

Another victim of brainwashing by the rightwing media. How sad. –bks

Response:

Troll.

Response:

said, directing the reply to alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US]

When? Where? How? Sure you don’t mean Iran, for the moment at least, and then perhaps Syria… Shame about North Korea and Zimbabwe though… I think God for the brave men and women over the centuries that have gone into hell and back home. If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution. Groups of people have wanted the US land for many many years.

Yes. Presumably Native Americans, for the most part. But are you seriously saying that Saddam was planning to *invade* the USA? They have hated us and have tried to change us into their citizens instead of having freedom.

Nice rhetoric. Two points occur: First, the USA has a rather longer history of creating "friendly dictatorships" in other countries than it does of introducing democratic governments. The problem is that "friendly" means friendly to the US and not to the people of the country in question. Take a brief look at the history of South and Central America, for example. The "Del Monte" coup in Guatemala is quite instructive in this respect. Then there’s Chilie, Rios Montt, and so on and so forth…. Of course one might argue that at the cold-war time, these things were necessary to preserve US security – but are you really surprised that the – for example – the thousands of, erm, extra-judicial executions, and torture by dictatorships supported by the US in say Iran, Chilie, Guatemala and so on hasn’t left a very deep, pervasive and long-term anti-US sentiment in many parts of the world? Secondly, given the Patriot Act, Americans now have less freedom that has previously been the case. You might want to google "Night and Fog" as regards what can be done in the name of National Security, not only to non citizens, but to citizens – while it seems problematic in an ethical sense to accord citizens and non citizens different rights. But this is, of course, one of the traditional methods of terrorism. Bin Laden and fellow travelers, even if they managed a 9/11 ever month or two could never overthrow the US. But what they might do is cause the US to enact laws and practices so restrictive that the guy in the street gets so pissed off that he elects a government that is prepared to deal. I want them home too. I want AlQuieda to leave us alone.

Then you’re going to, sooner or later, have to deal. Or else implement a world-wide police state that of its nature defeats the principles you’re allegedly fighting for. But of course Bin Laden had long gone beyond dealing, no longer being the analogous to say, the IRA, but rather, these days, Baader-Meinhof. Tricky, eh? But not, I think, insoluble. I want Bin Laden to get a life other than killing Americans in the name of his god. I want Saddam Hussein to go to hell to be with Hilter and the other anti American soldier killers that have tried to kill us throughout history.

Well, leaving aside the Christian premise that no one, save God, has the right to judge another deserving of Hell it seems to me that unless you acknowledge the, ah, problems other people have with the US concept of freedom as applied to non-Americans within living memory, this kind of thing is never going to stop. Bin Laden could not have remained at large for so long or been able to do so much *unless* there was considerable tacit and material support for him, his group, and so on: you might then ask yourself why he enjoys such considerable support while considering that cutting off such support is not so much a police or military matter as a political, and social one. For example, do you think Iran dislikes the USA because they "hate freedom", or a lot of people have relatives that suffered, were tortured, and or executed under the Shah who was supported by the USA? But lady, it ain’t gonna stop with this war or the next. It will only stop when we are tired of fighting to stay free of them.

Ah. The "Forever War". http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380708213 But you won’t understand the ref…. God bless that young man in your town. And thank God he is home now.

Quite so. But equally what a pity he was told to go on what increasingly looks like a false basis. And given the recent cuts in military benefits, one wonders what his country will do for him seeing as what he has given for his country. — "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You." – Attrib: Pauline Reage. Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion? See:

Response:

Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US]

Really? Saddam attacked the USA funny how everyone but you missed that. The president missed it. The news organizations missed it. The US military missed it. Exactly when and where did this attack take place? I think God for the brave men and women over the centuries that have gone into hell and back home. If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution.

apparently you’re familiar with the relentless attacks on our Constitution by the current administration? Educate yourself. Groups of people have wanted the US land for many many years.

nonsense. They have hated us and have tried to change us into their citizens instead of having freedom.

please provide examples. Keep in mind that there has not been a military attack on the US since World War II. I want them home too. I want AlQuieda to leave us alone.

Then don’t support bush. He has done more to strengthen Al Qaeda then Bin Laden has done. Bush is the perfect recruitment tool for Bin Laden. I want Bin Laden to get a life other than killing Americans in the name of his god. I want Saddam Hussein to go to hell to be with Hilter and the other anti American soldier killers that have tried to kill us throughout history.

bush has murdered nearly 12,000 innocent people for nothing. You’re ok with that , right? You ar4e anti-American scum. You are a freedom hating , constitution bashing traitor. But lady, it ain’t gonna stop with this war or the next. It will only stop when we are tired of fighting to stay free of them. God bless that young man in your town. And thank God he is home now.

The war was both unnecessary and illegal. Bush has murdered 1000 American military personnel and tens of thousands of innocent civilians. God has nothing to do with this. When bush finally meets his judgment he better take lots of sun screen with him because where he’s going it’s going to be very very hot. — "You don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

Response:

Yeah! Right! We’ve got to shift the battlefield back to here! FUCK OFF! PLONK!!

Now that’s some fear. Let our good men and more innocent civilians in the Middle East die or come home maimed so you don’t have to wait in long lines at the airport. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump. He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen. He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there. This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US] I think God for the brave men and women over the centuries that have gone into hell and back home. If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution. Groups of people have wanted the US land for many many years. They have hated us and have tried to change us into their citizens instead of having freedom. I want them home too. I want AlQuieda to leave us alone. I want Bin Laden to get a life other than killing Americans in the name of his god. I want Saddam Hussein to go to hell to be with Hilter and the other anti American soldier killers that have tried to kill us throughout history. But lady, it ain’t gonna stop with this war or the next. It will only stop when we are tired of fighting to stay free of them. God bless that young man in your town. And thank God he is home now. — Wil – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump. He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen. He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there. This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US]

Lying dolt I think God for the brave men and women over the centuries that have gone into hell and back home.

You may think god, but you surely don’t know it, if there is one. If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution. Groups of people have wanted the US land for many many years. They have hated us and have tried to change us into their citizens instead of having freedom.

Now your president takes your freedom. We used to have presidents who encouraged bravery and resillieance, this one recommends duct tape and stiking your head in the sand. What a coward! I want them home too. I want AlQuieda to leave us alone,

Are you talking about Al Qaida or his brother, John Qaida? I want Saddam Hussein to go to hell to be with Hilter and the other anti American soldier killers that have tried to kill us throughout history.

So we can rape little boys in honor of the stature of liberty? But lady, it ain’t gonna stop with this war or the next. It will only stop when we are tired of fighting to stay free of them.

They are fighting to stay free of you and your idiocy. You weren’t invited or required, you just invaded and are stealing iraq blind. God bless that young man in your town. And thank God he is home now. — Wil

Maybe you should fill in the gap, chickenhawk!

Response:

Lady Z, war is hell. We were attacked. [Yes, Saddam has attacked the US]

When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US When did Saddam attack the US If not, we would be under another flag, another government another not so free constitution.

How?

Response:

I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump. He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen. He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there. This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

Yeah! Right! We’ve got to shift the battlefield back to here! FUCK OFF! PLONK!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I knew it was going to happen sooner or later……In our town I saw a young man on crutches slide into his car. He had a flesh-colored knotted sock/bandage pulled up over the still swollen stump. He had lost his leg from the calf down and it appeared to be a recent amputation as it looked swollen. He had a short military haircut and could not have been more than 19 or 20 years old. We gotta get them out of there. This is so unfair and so needless.

Response:

Talking To The Animals

admin — Sat, 05 Jun 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Talking To The Animals Trying to talk or even communicate with the evolutionary animals is well nigh impossible for Christians. One would need the talent of a Dr. Doolittle to convey the facts to them. But then, since they cannot comprehend those facts or even evalute them, it would be a fruitless endeavor. Evolutionary animals insist they are decended from lower animals and that all life is just animals without souls or spirits. They, not having any imagination, could not think or dream of anything higher than themselves. Life just has to fit their limited bounds for there could never be anything beyond them they posit. Well, as Christians , we would like to inform them that there is LIFE beyond them and it is real LIFE not just and existance. It is LIFE with abundance(John 10:10) and it will go on for eternity(Jon 3:16).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Talking To The Animals Trying to talk or even communicate with the evolutionary animals is well nigh impossible for Christians. One would need the talent of a Dr. Doolittle to convey the facts to them. But then, since they cannot comprehend those facts or even evalute them, it would be a fruitless endeavor. Evolutionary animals insist they are decended from lower animals and that all life is just animals without souls or spirits. They, not having any imagination, could not think or dream of anything higher than themselves. Life just has to fit their limited bounds for there could never be anything beyond them they posit. Well, as Christians , we would like to inform them that there is LIFE beyond them and it is real LIFE not just and existance. It is LIFE with abundance(John 10:10) and it will go on for eternity(Jon 3:16).

But unlike animals, there’s no hope for even an annual period of sexual activity… Paul

Response:

And with this post, IKNDY admits to his own religion: Atheism!!! That’s right, folks–see why below! Talking To The Animals Trying to talk or even communicate with the evolutionary animals is well nigh impossible for Christians. One would need the talent of a Dr. Doolittle to convey the facts to them. But then, since they cannot comprehend those facts or even evalute them, it would be a fruitless endeavor. Evolutionary animals insist they are decended from lower animals and that all life is just animals without souls or spirits. They, not having any imagination, could not think or dream of anything higher than themselves.

What, an imagination is what you need to dream up something bigger than ourselves? Interesting… Life just has to fit their limited bounds for there could never be anything beyond them they posit. Well, as Christians , we would like to inform them that there is LIFE beyond them and it is real LIFE not just and existance. It is LIFE with abundance(John 10:10) and it will go on for eternity(Jon 3:16).

Uh-oh! According to IKNDY, this is what Christians "dream up." So much with revealed truths, guys, according to IKN, God is only something dreamt up by those that don’t want to admit that they are evolved. (But hey, we could sort of tell which people in here come from evolved populations regardless, eh?) Alberich

Response:

In a message sent ’round the world, IKnowHimDoYou poured fuel on the fire with the following: Talking To The Animals Trying to talk or even communicate with the evolutionary animals is well nigh impossible for Christians. One would need the talent of a Dr. Doolittle to convey the facts to them. But then, since they cannot comprehend those facts or even evalute them, it would be a fruitless endeavor.

So you enjoy "fruitless endeavours". We already knew that, since you are a Creationist. Evolutionary animals insist they are decended from lower animals and that all life is just animals without souls or spirits. They, not having any imagination, could not think or dream of anything higher than themselves. Life just has to fit their limited bounds for there could never be anything beyond them they posit.

And all your wishing will never bring a deity into existence. Well, as Christians , we would like to inform them that there is LIFE beyond them and it is real LIFE not just and existance. It is LIFE with abundance(John 10:10) and it will go on for eternity(Jon 3:16).

Not that you can demonstrate. Regards, Josef Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore totally all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all, who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us, who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. — Isaac Asimov

Response:

Talking To The Animals Trying to talk or even communicate with the evolutionary animals is well nigh impossible for Christians.

We hear from Christians all the time that animals do not have souls and therefore may be killed at will. Thank you for this demonstration of Christian love and peacefulness.

Response:

Talking To The Animals Trying to talk or even communicate with the evolutionary animals is well nigh impossible for Christians.

You do realize that the number of Christians that believe in evolution is greater than the number of atheists who do? Even in the United States where biology education is among the worst in the industrialized world, the percentage of the general public that accept the fact of evolution is around 40%. Since only 8% – 9% are atheists, that leaves over 30% who are not atheists, yet they are able to accept that we have evolved. One would need the talent of a Dr. Doolittle to convey the facts to them. But then, since they cannot comprehend those facts or even evalute them, it would be a fruitless endeavor.

95% of scientists accept the theory of evolution. It seems these scientists are having trouble understanding your antediluvian version of reality. But then again, they never had Dr. Doolittle teaching them science. Is that what you are claiming is the problem?

Response:

Talking To The Animals Trying to talk or even communicate with the evolutionary animals is well nigh impossible for Christians.

Probably because you’re so patently stupid that anyone with a modicum of intelligence has no interest in your drivel.

Response:

I see IKnowHate’s little campaign rolls on… — Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion "I think it’s the worst kept secret in Washington. That everybody – everybody I talk to in Washington has known and fully knows what [the neo-conservative] agenda was and what they were trying to do." [Retired General Anthony Zinni]

Response:

The roots of ‘creationism’ – the belief that the world was created a few thousand years ago exactly as described in Genesis – can be traced back to the completely fallacious chronology of scripture propounded by Archbishop of Armagh James Ussher (1581-1656) who set the date of the creation of the world at 23 October 4004BC. The teaching of this belief has been a controversial issue in the US for years. Now it appears that at least two British schools are teaching their students to doubt the theory of evolution. In March 2002 The Guardian reported that Emmanuel City Technology College in Gateshead had hosted a ‘creationist’ conference and that senior staff have urged teachers to promote biblical fundamentalism. Darwin and Evolution National Curriculum Science requires students to be taught about evolution. This is hardly surprising, since the theory is universally accepted as the basis of life on earth and has been repeatedly demonstrated to be true by observation and experiment. The theory that all plant and animal species have a common ancestry and that life is a process of constant change and development was first developed by a number of naturalists including the French biologist Jean-Baptiste de Lamarck (1744-1829). The most important figure in the development of the theory was British natural historian and geologist Charles Darwin (1809-1882). Between 1831 and 1836 Darwin (pictured) sailed the southern hemisphere as unpaid naturalist on HMS Beagle collecting the material which was to become the basis for his later work. He and fellow naturalist Arthur Russel Wallace (1823-1913) jointly developed the notion of a causal evolutionary mechanism which they called natural selection and in 1858 simultaneously published their thoughts on the subject. Darwin went on to publish many books and papers, the most significant being On the Origin of Species (1859) and The Descent of Man (1871). His work ‘changed our concepts of nature and of humanity’s place within it.’ (Oxford 1998) On the Origin of Species marked a watershed in scientific understanding and sold fourteen hundred copies on the day of its publication. Evolutionary theory quickly became universally accepted and has been confirmed by many branches of science. Genetics provides the basis for the study of heredity and mutation. Biogeography supplies evidence of the geographical variations within and between species. Palaeontology and geology have demonstrated the development of life forms on earth over 3,500 million years. The theory of natural selection argues that, in the competition for survival, only those organisms best adapted to their environment will live to reproduce – the so-called ’survival of the fittest’. The theory has been ‘confirmed by observation and studied by experiment.’ (Oxford 1998) While some details – especially relating to human evolution – remain unclear, the general outline is well established and is supported by every new discovery. The only people who have a problem with evolution are those fundamentalist Christians who wish to believe that the Bible is, in every detail, the literal and inerrant word of God. ‘Darwin’s name has become a byword for atheism in fundamentalist circles, yet the Origin was not intended as an attack upon religion, but was a sober, careful exposition of a scientific theory.’ Indeed, Darwin himself was ‘always respectful of religious faith.’ (Armstrong 2000) In fact, there was surprisingly little religious reaction to the book at the time, probably because the following year seven Anglican priests caused a much greater furore by publishing Essays and Reviews in which they sought to make textual criticism of the Bible available to the ordinary reader. This new ‘Higher Criticism’ represented ‘the triumph of the rational discourse of logos over myth.’ Higher Criticism – which demonstrated that it was impossible to read the Bible in an entirely literal manner – was to become ‘a bogey of Christian fundamentalists … but this was only because Western people had lost the original sense of the mythical.’ (Armstrong 2000) Creationism in the US While virtually everyone – and certainly all scientists – accepted the basis of evolutionary theory, a small minority of fundamentalist Christians – mostly in the United States – found it impossible to accept that the world could have been created in any way other than that described in Genesis. Despite Darwin’s protestations to the contrary, they regarded the whole evolutionary project as an attack on their faith. In 1920 the Presbyterian Democratic politician William Jennings Bryan (1860-1925) launched ‘a crusade against the teaching of evolution in schools and colleges.’ (Armstrong 2000) Bryan considered that Darwinism had been responsible for the horrors of the First World War, on the basis that the theory had persuaded the Germans that ‘only the strong could or should survive.’ (Armstrong 2000) He was also influenced by James H Leuba’s book Belief in God and Immortality which suggested that a college education damaged religious belief. Darwinism, Bryan concluded, was ‘causing young men and women to lose faith in God, the Bible and other fundamental doctrines of Christianity.’ (Armstrong 2000) He toured the States lecturing on ‘The Menace of Darwinism’, drawing large crowds and much media attention. His conclusions were ’superficial, naive and incorrect’ (Armstrong 2000) but people had been unnerved by the First World War and were uneasy about the power of science. Those who wanted a ‘plain-speaking religion’ were anxious to find a plausible reason to reject evolution. ‘Intellectuals and sophisticates might follow these new ideas with enthusiasm in Yale and Harvard and in the big eastern cities, but they were alien to many small-town Americans, who felt that their culture was being taken over by the secularist establishment.’ (Armstrong 2000) This anxiety was especially strong in the southern states, where people began to feel that the teaching of evolution in their schools was an example of the ‘"colonisation" of their society by an alien ideology’ (Armstrong 2000) Consequently, bills were introduced in Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennessee and Arkansas to ban the teaching of evolution. Tennessee’s law was particularly severe so John Scopes, a young teacher in the small town of Dayton, decided to challenge it and to stand up for the right to free speech. He announced that he had broken the law by teaching evolutionary theory and was duly taken to court. His trial, in 1925, ‘ceased to be simply about civil liberties, and became a contest between God and science.’ (Armstrong 2000) William Jennings Bryan appeared for the prosecution and was torn to shreds by Clarence Darrow, head of the newly-formed American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). He was forced to concede that the world was far older than six thousand years, that the six days of creation described in Genesis were not literally twenty-four hours each and that he had never read any critical account of the origins of the biblical text. Scopes was convicted and fined $100 (later overturned on a technicality by Tennessee’s Supreme Court) but there is no doubt that the victor of the trial was modern science. Bryan himself died shortly afterwards amid widespread press criticism of him and his followers as ‘hopeless anachronisms.’ (Armstrong 2000) Despite this, Tennessee kept its anti-evolution laws on the statute book until 1967. Fundamentalists felt marginalised by the hostility to their views, but their faith, ‘rooted in deep fear and anxiety’, was, if anything, strengthened by the Dayton disaster. During the following thirty years, their resentment festered and their beliefs became even more extreme and right-wing. ‘Fundamentalism exists in a symbiotic relationship with an aggressive liberalism or secularism, and, under attack, invariably becomes more extreme, bitter and excessive.’ (Armstrong 2000) Their cause was given an unintended boost in the 1960s. The federal government’s policy of requiring state schools to be racially integrated was unpopular with many white middle-class Americans who began sending their children to privately run church schools, many of which taught creationism. Pupils were taught that ‘Dinosaur bones were those of creatures killed during the Flood, while fossil dating – using the principles of the radioactive decay of atoms – was derided as a fraud.’ (Robin McKie and Martin Bright The Observer 17 March 2002) Today, seventy-odd years after Dayton, creationism is making another come-back in the US. A recent survey by California State University’s Professor Lawrence Lerner, published in Scientific American, reveals that creationism is spreading in the world’s most technologically advanced nation ‘at a disturbing rate’. Forty-five per cent of Americans – and even forty per cent of US Catholics – say they believe God created life some time in the past ten thousand years, despite the fact that … read more »

Response:

One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach IKnowHimDoYou: Talking To The Animals Trying to talk or even communicate with the evolutionary animals is well nigh impossible for Christians. One would need the talent of a Dr. Doolittle to convey the facts to them. But then, since they cannot comprehend those facts or even evalute them, it would be a fruitless endeavor.

You’re babbling. You need to see a doctor. Evolutionary animals insist they are decended from lower animals and that all life is just animals without souls or spirits. They, not having any imagination, could not think or dream of anything higher than themselves. Life just has to fit their limited bounds for there could never be anything beyond them they posit.

Where are these evolutionary animals? Could they be the same as animals? Can you talk to them? Do they understand you? Are you nuts? Yes or no? Well, as Christians , we would like to inform them that there is LIFE beyond them and it is real LIFE not just and existance. It is LIFE with abundance(John 10:10) and it will go on for eternity(Jon 3:16).

You’re full of shit. Your own religion posits that humans are the only species out of millions that are immortal. Yet we die, like animals do. You are fucking crazy. — Vic Sagerquist aa#2011 Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department It’s my funeral and I’ll fry if I want to…

Response:

Talking To The Animals Trying to talk or even communicate with the evolutionary animals is well nigh impossible for Christians. One would need the talent of a Dr. Doolittle to convey the facts to them. But then, since they cannot comprehend those facts or even evalute them, it would be a fruitless endeavor. Evolutionary animals insist they are decended from lower animals and that all life is just animals without souls or spirits. They, not having any imagination, could not think or dream of anything higher than themselves. Life just has to fit their limited bounds for there could never be anything beyond them they posit.

So, imagining things, wishful thinking and day dreams equal reality in your little world? No wonder you are so confused. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, as Christians , we would like to inform them that there is LIFE beyond them and it is real LIFE not just and existance. It is LIFE with abundance(John 10:10) and it will go on for eternity(Jon 3:16).

Response:

…and the animals boarded The Ark two by two what a pathetic lunatic you are

Response:

Talking To The Animals Trying to talk or even communicate with the evolutionary animals is well nigh impossible for Christians. One would need the talent of a Dr. Doolittle

…another imaginary character… to convey the facts to them. But then, since they cannot comprehend those facts or even evalute them, it would be a fruitless endeavor.

So then … just go away. Why spend so much time in a fruitless endevor? Evolutionary animals insist they are decended from lower animals and that all life is just animals without souls or spirits. They, not having any imagination, could not think or dream of anything higher than themselves.

Funny you should mention "imagination". Life just has to fit their limited bounds for there could never be anything beyond them they posit.

Well, now you’re just lying. Well, as Christians , we would like to inform them that there is LIFE beyond them and it is real LIFE not just and existance. It is LIFE with abundance(John 10:10) and it will go on for eternity(Jon 3:16).

You’ve informed us. You’ve earned your little mark in the "credit" column of your god’s ledger book. Now go away, troll. bogie