Question:
In article <3862378…@nebula.superior.net>, "PeaceMaker" <bria…@superior.net> wrote: > merlin wrote: > >are you in need of an abortion? this is > >a simple question. as you are a man, you > >obviously choose not to understand this > >simple question. i would suggest that you > >leave this to god and the person with the > >problem. let god and someone in need find > >the correct solution without your bullying > >techniques. > Your "logic" is laughable. If you take an honest > look at the pro-life movement, the majority are > women.
Which proves nothing, since there are more women than men in the pro-choice movement as well. > In addition, many are women who have had > abortions and are suffering the emotial and moral > consequences. A dear friend of mine is one of those > women.
And now Peacemaker starts with the anecdotal evidence, which many in the anti-abortion movement erroneously believe to be equal in value to observational evidence and experimental studies. > She’s asked God for forgiveness, and has turned > a terrible tragedy into something positive
Most women who have had abortions consider it to be a positive event in their lives, without needing to join some movement which history records as being in league with pro-authoritarian governments. > by fighting against the murder of unborn children.
Fighting against the killing of fetuses would seem to include being completely in favor of birth control, yet much of the anti-abortion movement is in favor of banning birth control too. One wonders if the agenda is really anti-abortion. More likely, the agenda is anti-sex. > Abortion is murder.
Not according to the Bible or, as Christians call it, "Man’s Law". It takes a totalitarian dictatorship in which women’s rights are completely suppressed before abortion is ever completely banned. Fortunately, we do not live in such a totalitarian government. In all of recorded history, the only governments which have banned abortion have been totalitarian dictatorships, and recently, totalitarian governments with sham democracies (Chile being the only example). Inquisition Spain was such a government, a totalitarian theocratical dictatorship. Other such authoritarian governments include Communist Romania in the 1980s, Nazi Germany (which sent abortion doctors to the concentration camps along with everyone else), and a more recent example, Taliban Afghanistan, which is well-known <SARCASM> for its respect for life and respect for the civil rights of women. </SARCASM> Face it: being anti-abortion is just plain anti-democracy, anti-freedom, and anti-women. History shows us the conditions for creating a complete ban on abortion, and you can’t get rid of the anti-freedom, anti-democracy, and anti-women elements of the conditions required to ban abortion completely. Lets imagine the future, in which there is the wet dream of the anti-abortion movement: the complete ban on abortion, and the legal recognization of the fetus as a person. Lets further indicate what the text describing the future is by delimiting it with a double ~~. ~~ Under a complete ban on abortion: ~~ ~~ You can get a woman out of your way in the ~~ promotion track by raping her. You can hire ~~ a "rape man" to do it, if you don’t feel like ~~ doing it yourself. Presto! She has to take ~~ time off from work to be pregnant, since any ~~ damage she might inflict on the fetus by ~~ working is a criminal offense, punishable ~~ under the recently revised Child Abuse Act ~~ which stipulates that any actions resulting ~~ in harm to the recently personized fetus are ~~ just as bad as doing them to a child. Worse, ~~ in fact, since the developing fetus is more ~~ susceptible to damage vectors than a child. ~~ ~~ It doesn’t even matter if she isn’t pregnant, ~~ since all reported rapes must be considered to ~~ be conception events, to err on the side of ~~ protecting the zygote. She is summarily put ~~ on leave for reporting the rape, or jailed for ~~ failing to report a rape which results in a ~~ pregnancy. Either way, you’ve just gotten ~~ a woman out of your way, and you are the next ~~ in line for a promotion! Those of you who would like to suggest that there are no men who wouldn’t do the above situation for their own personal gain, are welcome to come in from their personal fantasy universe at any time and learn some facts about what men do in the REAL WORLD. ~~ More history. ~~ ~~ We all know that being pregnant can make a ~~ woman do stupid things. After all, much of ~~ the anti-abortion movement of the 1990s was ~~ about proving to women that having an abortion ~~ performed is a stupid thing. ~~ ~~ A recent news story: In the 1990s, the ~~ anti-abortion movement was hobbled by the ~~ system of democracy and had to regularly ~~ insist that any complete ban on abortion ~~ needed an exception, "to save the life of ~~ the woman", in order to score political ~~ points with the electorate. The rank and ~~ file of the anti-abortion movement was ~~ kept calm by the misinformation that events ~~ leading up to the childbirth which would ~~ kill the pregnant woman would also kill ~~ the fetus, when in fact modern medicine was ~~ quite capable of keeping the fetus alive ~~ even if the woman died. ~~ ~~ Thanks to the new system of government, the ~~ complete ban on abortion has no chinks in ~~ its system of banning all abortions ~~ everywhere. As you all know, the sham ~~ democracy keeps incidents by improper ~~ citizens to a minimum, since they think ~~ rather amusingly that they still have ~~ some power. ~~ ~~ Three months ago, a pregnant woman went to ~~ her OB/GYN for a checkup, and the doctor ~~ informed her that she should begin making ~~ her will and last arrangements, since the ~~ childbirth was going to kill her, and there ~~ was nothing that could be legally done to ~~ save her life. He also informed her, as per ~~ the Child Protection Act, that he was going ~~ to have to incarcerate her within the hospital ~~ jail ward to prevent her from any acts which ~~ might harm the fetus, including considering ~~ an early suicide and thus murdering the fetus. ~~ ~~ After sobbing heavily, the woman pulled an ~~ illegal handgun out of her purse, and ~~ threatened the doctor with death if he didn’t ~~ perform an abortion on her. The doctor tried ~~ to reason with her, telling her that by ~~ ordering the abortion she was imposing the ~~ same death penalty on herself that her ~~ childbirth would bring, but she could not be ~~ dissuaded. She seemed to think, from watching ~~ old cop shows, that she might be able to get ~~ away with hostages. ~~ ~~ Police officers arrived on the scene to find ~~ the cowardly doctor risking a long prison ~~ sentence to save his own life, by performing ~~ an illegal abortion on the heartless woman. ~~ Taking no chances, the first officer on the ~~ scene shot the doctor in the head to save the ~~ fetus from harm, then put a bullet through a ~~ less lethal point on the pregnant woman’s gun ~~ arm to prevent her from turning the gun on ~~ herself. ~~ ~~ Doctors working frantically managed to save ~~ as much of the woman as was necessary to ~~ continue the pregnancy to term. She was ~~ denied morphine or any painkillers for the ~~ remaining four months of her pregnancy, as ~~ these painkillers might have been harmful ~~ to the development of the fetus. ~~ ~~ Thanks to the recent ChildKiller Punishment ~~ Act, the doctors were able to do a C-section ~~ after only three months without any anesthesia ~~ or stitching required, thus fulfilling the ~~ laws’ requirement that the death of the ~~ attempted child-killer "be both bloody and ~~ painful, extending agony for as long as ~~ possible." The fake SCOTUS ruling that the ~~ Eighth Amendment didn’t apply to anyone ~~ procuring or performing an abortion, allowed ~~ the bill to fit within the sham democracy ~~ system. ~~ ~~ The woman was strapped to the table, already ~~ in agonizing pain, and was cut open to the ~~ background noise of her howls of agony. ~~ After the doctors safely removed the fetus ~~ and placed it in a plexiglass containment ~~ chamber, government torture agents took over. ~~ They completely gutted her, removing her ~~ intestines and letting them spill across her ~~ heaving chest and screaming mouth, to the ~~ approval of the spectators gathered to witness ~~ that the death was as bloody and painful as ~~ possible. As per the specific language of ~~ the bill, the ovaries were then removed, ~~ dangled in front of the attempted killer, and ~~ then stored for genetic study into determining ~~ what makes a woman want to kill her fetus. ~~ At this point, the torture agents were free ~~ to improvise, and the public record notes that ~~ Torture Agent Scorizs made use of some tools ~~ he built from drawings gleaned from a previous ~~ great anti-abortion enterprise, the Spanish ~~ Inquisition, to sear out her eyes, break ~~ every bone in her body, and burn off all her ~~ body hair. An added twist was that during the ~~ previous months of her painful incarceration ~~ in the hospital jail ward, they had stocked up ~~ on her blood, permitting a slow drip of her ~~ own blood into her veins during the painful ~~ operation, thus preventing her from simply ~~ bleeding to death right away and escaping the ~~ punishment that the law decreed for vicious ~~ attempted babykilling. ~~ ~~ Most spectators agreed that the woman’s ~~ agonizing screams meant that the law was ~~ being fulfilled to the letter, down to her ~~ last howling gasp and death rattle. ~~ ~~ The vicious woman was finally pronounced ~~ dead, and the torture agents were commended ~~ for their skill in keeping her alive and ~~ conscious for seventy-two hours, still not ~~ breaking the record held by Torture Agent ~~ Skarlous who had kept a woman–who was guilty ~~ of obtaining one of the last remaining samples ~~ of RU-486–alive, conscious, and in agonizing ~~ pain, for four days. ~~ ~~ The … read more »
Response:
pla…@iamerica.net wrote: > On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:41:12 -0500, merl…@tuna.net (merlin) wrote: > >do you believe you are in need of an abortion? > =================== > In the event one were, they’d be pleased to learn > what the ‘holy’ Bible has to say on the matter…..!
WRONG ANSWER. Yes or no, dipshit.
Response:
In article <845352$gp…@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>, ronka…@cc.helsinki.fi (Osmo Ronkanen) wrote: > In article <844l6n$4r…@nnrp1.deja.com>, > <webgi…@rocketmail.com> wrote: > >dear merlin, > >only if I am suddenly turned into a woman tomorrow > >and then suffer an immaculate conception. > Why is the question whether the conception is > immaculate or not have to do with anything? > (Before you answer please check what immaculate > conception means)
Hmmm, egg-salad point. I wouldn’t necessarily have to have an immaculate conception after the miraculous change in chromosomes, in order to become pregnant. I believe the use of the wording "immaculate conception" was to point out that my reply was meant in jest. 
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
Response:
dear bishop what is your agenda here? to spread death threats for god? its working. > No man does that with out any help from me, only a liar would think otherwise.
who has told you the truth? who is teaching you that what you have learned is the truth and everyone else is a liar? who is teaching you to call people names and label them liar? who is giving you permission to use such name calling while in the spirit and the memory of jesus? are you still in high school? i am getting the picture of very young student in a racially segregated church in a small town in the south. is this your profile bishop? (no request for specifics implied) this is how you are comming off, as a young guy that has learned to hate and name call from a very prejudicial small town society that inforces strong social structure thru racial and social segregation to keep order in public. i am always suspecious of anyone that can so easily call any one else a name and especially when this person calls someone else a liar. why do you use such language against a brother in christ? why would you paint such an ugly image of a fellow human being. jesus says anything you do to another you are doing to jesus, so jesus logic is that you are calling jesus a liar also? > Then > God can and has destroyed towns and nations, without the need of guns and bombs, then > that is your job to do such.
yes, more death threats from god? when will these death threats by ‘christians’ and threats against real people stop? when will love, jesus teachings of love and tolerance for all prevail? when will jesus love for humanity come thru ‘christianity? when will jesus teachings become the back bone for ‘christian’ action instead of these generalized death threats to all non cult members. you keep trying to kill everyone with scriptures from the bible bishop, why? who you do you threaten anyone with death for not accepting your intolerant version of biblical teachings? > Then you are the only one looking for a excuse,
one need not have an excuse to disagree with you bishop. conversation on christent allows for differing opinions, that you would want god to kill those that disagree with you is not new to ‘christianity.’ > God doesn’t need one,
tell us what god needs then bishop. tell us of god’s earthly desires and needs then bishop. > God make the > laws and the rules, set them down,
god did no such thing. when no one you have met in modern times has spoken with god, it is hard to believe that anyone that wrote the bible spoke with god in a previous less inlightened age. as you say jesus is dead, who inspired the bible? who is it that keeps telling men in the bible to threaten other men in the bible with murder from god, when it is men that murder each other. it is no mistake in editing that cain and able are early myths in the bible, this story fortells the violence that we see today in religions all around the world. > and those that broke them got what was promised,
and when do you plan not to break jesus commandment to love all as you love jesus? what old testament laws do you break today because you have decided to ignore the rules in the bible. i bet: you don’t keep the sabbath holy (saturday that is) you wear blended fabrics you eat pork? you mix dairy and fish? you have more than one god you worship. the father and son? > and if they had children and such, they not God was responsible for the own deeds > that got their families killed.
you must have told at least a dozen murder stories from the bible in the last couple of months. > Same principle with Japan and their god-king,
racist of you don’t you think? so god is only a white european king on a euro styled throne? > they > got what they gave, and as they did they received, justly by the way.
more racist religious doctrine. again this reminds us the bible supports segregation and slavery. > The of cause > the Japanese person may not see it that way. As the Chinese that lost their children > to the blade of the Jap solider and the woman who had their babies cut out of them to > died seeing the blade cut into them.
you forget about the christian missionairies in america? you forget the largest land owners in hawaii are the descendants of christian missionairies? you forget that christians rounded up the aboriginal american indians into concentrations camps and forced poverty? you forget that until the 1970’s it was hard for a black man to vote in much of america? you forget that until the 1960’s that americans of non-white decent were not allowed into most churches, hospitals, hotels, restaurants and theatres in america? segregated waiting rooms in train stations and air ports were the norm until the 1970’s in the south. when will you address these local crimes by christians? and calling someone a jap is a very insensitive thing to do, don’t you think? > I seen what man can do, and I am all for God > doing what God can do, in destroying the ones that refuse to follow the way of love > and the laws.
murdering people is not god’s work. god does not go around murdering people, people murder people. people chain up slaves, refuse services, and spread stereotypes not god. > Then we know by fact that the Geneva Convention did not know what it > was talking about if you interpret that it had anything to do with "God" in any way > shape or matter. If that is all you got, then you are on very sinking ground.
so you recommend god kill all your mind’s enemies? disgusting. > The point is not that people did such, but your "ANYONE" Which I see you used my > reply but not what I was replying too, not too honest is it.
jesus has asked you to stop this torrid rant on death, jesus has asked you to love everyone and learn to be accepting of all those around you and judge no one. you seem to forget these basic concepts everytime you post on christ. > God told someone but > not anyone or everyone to do such.
again, when did god speak to YOU, and what can you repeat on christnet of that conversation? until such time that you reveal a personal relationship with god, it is hearsay for you to say that you know for sure anyone could have received orders to kill from god. deleted hypothetical story about woman in need. > You got the guilt on the wrong foot, and I dare say you have > personal reasons to want to put it on God, for doing what God showed he
would do. when you believe that god kills your enemies you can believe god will do anything. > What sin are you hiding?
that is a question to ask yourself bishop. > God has a right as the creator to make man or destroy > man,
actually god told your devil to do anything but kill JOB. these are not trials unto death, they are trials onto life, that all your threats end in death suggests your level of comprehension of the myth of jesus and does not reflect any one you are speaking to or about god. > to improve or heal man or what ever as creator God.
the conditions of man have improved, we are changing, so much has happened in civil rights and for all those less fortunage in american and the world. > What I say since you know the rules, do not get a woman pregnant that
is not your wife, if the Law doesn’t get > you, God will in the end.
god loves everyone, your message is god will get you? sick very sick. deleted hypothetical reference to hypothetical woman. > Pray tell, how can a person have a miscarriage and still have a childbirth? Don’t > you even know what a miscarriage is?
a miscarrage is permature child birth resulting in or because of the death of the fetus. > Never heard of a childbirth first followed by > a miscarriage, it just can not happen in that order. Please show a little > intelligent if your going to make statements.
tom goodman are you understanding any of this? zoner do you not see the danger in the anyone repeating death threats from god? jesus disciple, is this jesus message of love at the end of the twentieth century? mark bassett is this direction you want your world without sinners to take? murder threats in the name of god? when ever anyone represents god as a murderer, we find men murdering in god’s name. when ever any murder is glorified as jesus murder has been, a cult of murder builds up around the myth. so by focusing on jesus death as a burnt offering to god, it is easy for many ‘christians’ to see the solution for their problems in the murder of others they believe god hates when in reality god loves everyone. go figure. bishop you really could use a hug. happy new year too. in love, merlin
Response:
<webgi…@rocketmail.com> wrote in message news:84bj7m$oae$1@nnrp1.deja.com… > In article <xw3a4.124711$7I4.3208…@news5.giganews.com>, > "The Bishop" <rwkn…@no-spam-chevalier.net> wrote: > > > > Your God routinely slaughtered innocent children in > > > the Bible, and ordered anyone who follows God to do > > > the same. I don’t see where you can claim that > > > Christianity somehow doesn’t have to follow > > > ORDERS FROM GOD. > > That is nice, you knock him, then do the same yourself. > I don’t kill kids. I don’t even kill fetuses.
Then either do I, and I am a Christian. So what your point? > Your God, on the other hand, kills kids and fetuses. > Your rhetoric leads men to pick up guns and bombs and > kill people.
No man does that with out any help from me, only a liar would think otherwise. Then God can and has destroyed towns and nations, without the need of guns and bombs, then that is your job to do such. > > God did have innocent children killed as it was > > done in war time. > Which is no excuse. Civilian casualties was one of the > first "war crimes" placed under the Geneva Convention, > meaning quite simply that somehow the people on Earth > were capable of being *nicer* to children than *your God*.
Then you are the only one looking for a excuse, God doesn’t need one, God make the laws and the rules, set them down, and those that broke them got what was promised, and if they had children and such, they not God was responsible for the own deeds that got their families killed. Same principle with Japan and their god-king, they got what they gave, and as they did they received, justly by the way. The of cause the Japanese person may not see it that way. As the Chinese that lost their children to the blade of the Jap solider and the woman who had their babies cut out of them to died seeing the blade cut into them. I seen what man can do, and I am all for God doing what God can do, in destroying the ones that refuse to follow the way of love and the laws. Then we know by fact that the Geneva Convention did not know what it was talking about if you interpret that it had anything to do with "God" in any way shape or matter. If that is all you got, then you are on very sinking ground. > > God no place orders anyone who follows God to do > > the same, you never find that foolish and stupid > > remark. > Then you haven’t been reading Leviticus, wherein > pregnant women are condemned to be stoned to death > without giving them time to give birth first. Clearly,
The point is not that people did such, but your "ANYONE" Which I see you used my reply but not what I was replying too, not too honest is it. God told someone but not anyone or everyone to do such. I do not see your point in pregnant women being condemned to be stoned to death, Be nice to get that verse, not just the book, if you know it said so, then give that verse, so we can read it in context. > your God is ordering the deaths of fetuses who were > conceived in sin. In Deutoronomy God repeats himself > and adds on new cases wherein a pregnant woman and > her fetus shall be considered to be guilty of the > same sexual sin
So what you point, the mother is responsible for the child, and if sin is what make it, then it is her doings that bring about the death of that Child. God made the rules, they knew the rules and knew what would be if they broke them. What you going to do, blame a driver of a Car, because some woman with child jumped in his way knowing she and her baby would die. Who is wrong the driver for doing what the law gave him permission to do, drive down the road. The woman is quilt not the one following the rules. You got the guilt on the wrong foot, and I dare say you have personal reasons to want to put it on God, for doing what God showed he would do. What sin are you hiding? God has a right as the creator to make man or destroy man, to improve or heal man or what ever as creator God. What I say since you know the rules, do not get a woman pregnant that is not your wife, if the Law doesn’t get you, God will in the end. > A short list of the specific verses in which a > pregnancy is possible from the sinful act, yet no > mention is made of allowing the woman to give birth > **before** her stoning, is:
Then by the same rules you just made, there would be no mention that they did not give the woman time to give birth. Assuming the woman that did such a act was pregnant in the first place, most were caught in the act and so stoned, that would leave no place for your pregnancy to happen. Interesting is it not. It seems like you want to say God did this or that, but can not show he did such. > Leviticus 19:20 (scourging certainly causes a > miscarriage, yet no mention is made of a > childbirth first)
Pray tell, how can a person have a miscarriage and still have a childbirth? Don’t you even know what a miscarriage is? Never heard of a childbirth first followed by a miscarriage, it just can not happen in that order. Please show a little intelligent if your going to make statements.
Response:
In article <843oht$59…@bob.news.rcn.net>, Moondancer Shadowseeker <k…@ma.ultranet.com> wrote: > PeaceMaker wrote: > > Your misunderstanding and/or twisting of the > > isolated biblical passages you quote is incredible. > This shouldnt’ suprise you. One thing that I have > noticed is that when a pro-lifer can’t think of a > logical reason why an abortion is not a good idea, > he starts quoting the bible. And usually poorly.
Uhhh, Moondancer? You should realize that "PeaceMaker" is an anti-abortion person who is decrying the use of Bible verses to prove that the Bible is *pro-abortion* and *pro-infanticide*. In essence, PeaceMaker is attempting to state that an earlier representation of what the Bible says is completely wrong, without PeaceMaker actually *proving* that the earlier representation of the Bible as bloodthirsty is wrong. I know that entering into a discussion without reading the previous posts can be confusing, but do try to keep up. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
Response:
In article <3861ebc…@nebula.superior.net>, "PeaceMaker" <bria…@superior.net> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> pla…@iamerica.net wrote in message > <386197b2.404596…@news.iamerica.net>… > >On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:41:12 -0500, > > merl…@tuna.net (merlin) wrote: > >>do you believe you are in need of an abortion? > >=================== > >In the event one were, they’d be pleased to learn > >what the ‘holy’ Bible has to say on the matter…..! > <Big snip> > Your misunderstanding and/or twisting of the > isolated biblical passages you quote is incredible.
One of the first things they must teach you in Christian School is "delete the evidence, then claim the evidence wasn’t worth anything". You don’t even TRY to discredit the proofs used, you just delete them and them make an unsupported and unproven claim that they weren’t worth anything. Cults use the same tactics to keep their members in line. Are you a member of a cult? Your God routinely slaughtered innocent children in the Bible, and ordered anyone who follows God to do the same. I don’t see where you can claim that Christianity somehow doesn’t have to follow ORDERS FROM GOD. > Life is a gift from God.
Your God orders the slaughter of fetuses conceived by sinful sex, since no provision in the Bible is made to permit a woman pregnant from sinful sex to give birth first. Jeremiah was quite clear on the subject. The children of unbelievers needed to be killed. The fetuses of unbeliever women needed to be killed. I don’t see how one can claim otherwise without *twisting Jeremiah*. > Abortion is murder.
Then you disagree with Exodus 21:22-25, making you a Christian heretic. There is no way a perfect God would have permitted a written law which contained a crime which would NEVER BE COMMITTED, as is the case of a miscarriage in which the fetus didn’t die. As you may or may not recall, faith healing is the only permitted form of medicine to the Hebrews, and faith healing doesn’t permit a nonviable fetus to survive. If the death of the fetus is "mischief", then there never would have been a situation wherein "no mischief" followed, and thus the second half of Exodus 21:22 is a crime which is NEVER COMMITTED. Surely a perfect God is incapable of including laws for crimes which are never committed, right? Exodus 21:22-25, if the death of the fetus is not considered to be "mischief", declares that the punishment for killing ONLY a fetus is a punishment less than what is decreed for MURDER. In the case of a perfect God inspiring the Bible, abortion is not punished the same as murder, therefore abortion isn’t considered murder by the Bible. The only way you can declare that Exodus 21:22-25 says that abortion is murder, is if you first agree that your God is imperfect and capable of making the mistake of making an impossible act–"causing a miscarriage in Hebrew society which does not result in the death of a nonviable fetus"–a crime. When you have finished that act of complete and utter heresy, you can claim that the Bible says that abortion is murder. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
Response:
<webgi…@rocketmail.com> wrote in message news:848h5s$kfc$1@nnrp1.deja.com… > Your God routinely slaughtered innocent children in > the Bible, and ordered anyone who follows God to do > the same. I don’t see where you can claim that > Christianity somehow doesn’t have to follow > ORDERS FROM GOD.
That is nice, you knock him, then do the same yourself. God did have innocent children killed as it was done in war time. God no place orders anyone who follows God to do the same, you never find that foolish and stupid remark. We are told to love the little children and so on. Some at a date in time, did kill, and were told to kill everyone in the location. If they had a A-bomb that would of done the same. In war, these things happen, it is not the norm as you try to make it out to be. You will find only a few times this was done, just like the USA and its two A-bombs on Japan. Since that did the killing of everyone, there has not been another one drop on anyone world wide in over 50 years now. So please if you had God so much, and tell the other guy to not dismiss your so called evident’s, how about you start doing what you want others to do, be honest. > > Life is a gift from God. > Your God orders the slaughter of fetuses conceived > by sinful sex, since no provision in the Bible is > made to permit a woman pregnant from sinful sex to > give birth first.
Your doctors do the same, what now, you going to leave the USA and half the world? Sin has its rewards, and the person that does it, knowing that such will happen are the one that is responsible for their actions and they are the killers, not God. You play the game you get hurt, and the child gets hurt, then many folks today will tell you that a fetuses is not a child and so on, and I have no problem, if this was on abortion you be one of them.
Response:
In article <xw3a4.124711$7I4.3208…@news5.giganews.com>, "The Bishop" <rwkn…@no-spam-chevalier.net> wrote: > <webgi…@rocketmail.com> wrote in message > news:848h5s$kfc$1@nnrp1.deja.com… > > Your God routinely slaughtered innocent children in > > the Bible, and ordered anyone who follows God to do > > the same. I don’t see where you can claim that > > Christianity somehow doesn’t have to follow > > ORDERS FROM GOD. > That is nice, you knock him, then do the same yourself.
I don’t kill kids. I don’t even kill fetuses. Your God, on the other hand, kills kids and fetuses. Your rhetoric leads men to pick up guns and bombs and kill people. > God did have innocent children killed as it was > done in war time.
Which is no excuse. Civilian casualties was one of the first "war crimes" placed under the Geneva Convention, meaning quite simply that somehow the people on Earth were capable of being *nicer* to children than *your God*. > God no place orders anyone who follows God to do > the same, you never find that foolish and stupid > remark.
Then you haven’t been reading Leviticus, wherein pregnant women are condemned to be stoned to death without giving them time to give birth first. Clearly, your God is ordering the deaths of fetuses who were conceived in sin. In Deutoronomy God repeats himself and adds on new cases wherein a pregnant woman and her fetus shall be considered to be guilty of the same sexual sin. In Leviticus your God specifically orders a father who catches his daughter having premarital sex, to take her outside the town with all the villagers and stone her to death, himself included. Your God makes no mention of the father permitting the girl to give birth first, hence your God is ordering the people to ignore the possibility of a pregnancy, and thus kill the fetus as if it was guilty of the same offense. A short list of the specific verses in which a pregnancy is possible from the sinful act, yet no mention is made of allowing the woman to give birth **before** her stoning, is: Leviticus 19:20 (scourging certainly causes a miscarriage, yet no mention is made of a childbirth first) Leviticus 20:10,11,12,14 (any potential fetus killed along with woman) Leviticus 21:9 (any potential fetus killed along with woman) Deuteronomy 22:20-21,22,23-24 (any potential fetus killed along with woman) If your thirteen year old girl CHILD is caught having premarital sex, you are ORDERED BY GOD to go and STONE HER TO DEATH, ALONG WITH ANY FETUS GROWING IN HER WOMB. > We are told to love the little children and so on.
Except when they come from a culture or a race different from your own, then you are permitted to toy with their lives and prolong their pain until their parents grovel before you and admit that their race is but dogs to your master race. Jesus pointed the way, why can’t you see that Jesus only felt pity or compassion for children of his own race, and not of other races? Matthew 15:22-28 "And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." Here’s another story, you tell me if the doctor is being CRUEL: "A white doctor was sitting in his office, around the year of 1923, and a black woman came in from the heat, carrying her daughter, who was only six and screaming in pain. ’Doctor, help my child,’ cried the woman. ’She has been run over by an oxcart!’ The doctor’s orderly came running in, saying, ’What should I do, boss? I couldn’t stop her from coming in, shall I send her away?’ The doctor turned to the woman at this point, seemingly seeing her for the first time, and said, ‘This is a whites-only hospital. We can’t help niggers here.’ ’Please?’ begged the woman. Her child screamed again in agonizing pain. ’I'm sorry, but what if the resources I use to help your nigger child are needed by some white folks’ kid?’ ’I'll do anything you want if you’ll just help my child,’ sobbed the woman. ’Anything!’ ’Anything, huh?’ the doctor replied. ’My kitchen boy’s out with a broken ankle, will you do my supper for me?’ ’Yes, yes, anything!’ screamed the woman, her screams barely being heard above the agonizing cries of pain from her daughter. ’Okay, I’m just testing you,’ said the doctor. ’Bring the nigger child into the patient room.’ Prolonging the pain of a child to get an act of complete submission from the mother…gosh, that doctor was really CRUEL, wasn’t he? > Some at a date in time, did kill, and were told > to kill everyone in the location.
Which was all fine and good, except that your God ordered innocent children to be slaughtered, innocent children who could just as easily be taken into captivity and put into the slavery which your God also sanctioned. But instead, since your God is an anti-children God, your God ordered the mass slaughter of children. Its amazing how quickly you move to praise the mass slaughter endorsed by your God. When your God does genocide, its one of the greatest things your God has done, right? > If they had a A-bomb that would of done the same. > In war, these things happen, it is not the norm > as you try to make it out to be.
Most of the Old Testament is composed of wars, making war the "norm" for your God. Your God spent most of the Old Testament trying to make the Hebrews kill off their neighbors, then your God hardened Pharaoh’s heart so that thousands of innocent babies had to die, all for the "glory" of your God. > You will find only a few times this was done, > just like the USA and its two A-bombs on Japan.
The times when it is done, the innocent children killed by God outnumber the dead in the recent atomic bomb explosions. Think about it: your God ordered people who had to kill these children to have a soldier thrust his sword into a child, one at a time, and they managed to kill off more than a single A-bomb. Your God relishes the slaughter of little children, one by one. Examples of this happening extend far beyond "a few times". I count ** 24 ** times this happens, not including a prophesy by Isaiah! …The Flood Story in Genesis, wherein babies who cannot have gained enough sentience to reject God are drowned in their cribs, and pregnant women are killed along with their fetuses, all WITHOUT A WAR TO "JUSTIFY" IT. …Also in Genesis, babies are slaughtered in their cribs during the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, all WITHOUT A WAR TO "JUSTIFY" IT. …The "Lord" hardens Pharaoh’s heart not once, not twice, but three times, so that thousands of innocent Egyptian children, infants, and fetuses within the womb can be slaughtered, all for the "glory" of God, and all WITHOUT A WAR TO "JUSTIFY" IT. …Numbers 16:28-33 The "Lord" causes the earth to open and swallow up countless innocent children, infants, and fetuses within their mothers’ wombs, all WITHOUT A WAR TO "JUSTIFY" IT. …Numbers 21:3 The "Lord" orders the Hebrews to utterly destroy the Canaanites, which they do, without leaving a single survivor, not a single innocent child, infant, or fetus within a woman’s womb is left alive. …Numbers 21:35 The "Lord" orders the Hebrews to utterly destroy the people of Og, and they do, leaving not a single innocent child, infant, or fetus within a womb, alive. …Numbers 31:17 Moses, as the direct representative of "the Lord", orders the slaughter of all innocent male children and any fetuses lurking within the wombs of women. The "Lord" approves of this, since the "Lord" fails to punish Moses or any of the Israelites for this slaughter of the innocent. …Deuteronomy 2:31-34 The "Lord" fails to punish the destruction of the innocent children, infants, and fetuses within wombs, of Sihon. …Deuteronomy 3:2-6 The "Lord" orders the Israelites to do to the Basharites what they did to the people of Sihon, which they do, leaving not a single innocent child, infant, or fetus within a womb, alive. …Deuteronomy 20:16-17 The "Lord" orders the Israelites "thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:" in the following cities: "the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:". In other words, the "Lord" commands that all the innocent children, infants, and fetuses within wombs, that exist within those cities, need to be killed until all of the innocent are dead. …Joshua 6:21 Remember the Walls of Jericho? Yup, the "Lord" ordered the slaughter of the innocent children, infants, and fetuses within wombs there as well. …Joshua 8:24-25 AFTER THE WAR WAS OVER, the "Lord" orders all the men back to the city, whereupon Joshua and his men, with full approval from the "Lord", kill every single innocent child, infant, and fetus within a womb, living within the city. At 2 children per man-woman pair, that would mean 24,000 innocent children slaughtered by the command of "the Lord". If only half of the women were pregnant, that would mean 6,000 fetuses slaughtered with "the Lord’s" approval.
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Response:
pla…@iamerica.net wrote in message
<386197b2.404596…@news.iamerica.net>… >On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:41:12 -0500, merl…@tuna.net (merlin) wrote: >>do you believe you are in need of an abortion? >=================== >In the event one were, they’d be pleased to learn >what the ‘holy’ Bible has to say on the matter…..!
<Big snip> Your misunderstanding and/or twisting of the isolated biblical passages you quote is incredible. Life is a gift from God. Abortion is murder.
Response:
dear peacemaker, > Your misunderstanding and/or twisting of the isolated biblical passages you > quote is incredible.
list them, list all merlin’s fautls, your generalized complaint it just that a generalization, list all merlin’s faults and we can then fairly and honestly go thru each one, otherwise you are simply trying to paint someone with a broad brush and that is called stereotyping is it not? > Life is a gift from God. Abortion is murder.
are you in need of an abortion? this is a simple question. as you are a man, you obviously choose not to understand this simple question. i would suggest that you leave this to god and the person with the problem. let god and someone in need find the correct solution without your bullying techniques. when did you enter your body? can you remember? did you enter during insemination and were forced by god to live as fetus in your mothers womb? when did you enter you body that you can say what you do about anyones choice about their bodies. your logic suggests that it is murder to remove a cancer growth. in love, merlin
Response:
Given these extreme circumstances, would abortion have been the best decision in the following cases? Case 1. A preacher and his wife are very, very poor. They already have 14 children. Now she finds that she’s pregnant with number 15. They’re living in tremendous poverty. Would you consider recommending an abortion? 2.The father is ill with syphilis; the mother has tuberculosis. They have had four children. One child has died, one is blind, one deaf, and one has tuberculosis. The mother is pregnant. Would you recommend an abortion? 3.A baby is born crippled and a dwarf. If that outcome had been predicted in advance, would you have recommended an abortion? 4.A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl and impregnated her. Would you recommend an abortion? 5.A poor teenage girl is pregnant and unmarried. Her soldier father disowns her and the child. She would name the child after the father and raise the child, while bearing the disgrace of illegitimacy. Would you recommend an abortion? 6.A teenage girl is pregnant. She’s not married. Her fianc
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