Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

I have held that the Lord’s Supper, held symbolically by many, is actually transformed during the service regardless of individual belief and for the sake of the faithful ignorant.  I can not state this as an absolute.  However, if the Transubstantiation requires one’s belief as is seemingly maintained, what of those born within the religious paradigms that regard it otherwise?  Are they to be held accountable?  Or, is ignorance truly bliss?  I can not see that whe- ther or not one believes changes the fact that the transformation occurs.  My brother, technically a Southern Baptist, has refrained from becoming Catholic as he claims the Church sins in not allowing the rest of Christianity to partake of the Eucharist.

  First, it must be understood that the only ‘Church’ which has the Real Presence is the RCC and EOC, sinc eboth have maintained the Apostolic succession.   In some other denominations (some Lutheran for example) they beleive that their faith is what makes it become the Real presence.     However, this isn’t supported by Scripture:   " For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself." (1 Cor. 11:29)   Now, if the Eucharist was merely symbolic, then how could the reception of it brng a judgement?  Your brother would be right in thinking it unfair.   However, if it IS theReal Presence, and it’s reception without belief can bring a judgement then the withholding of it from non-Catholics is actually a sign of concern for them.   Likwise, if the Real presence appears ‘only’ at the persons belief, then the above passage makes no sense. Pax Christi,  Pat        "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and         follow me" (Matt. 16:24)

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On March 29th Roman Catholic priest Mohiomi Makobane in Soweto, South Africa gave President Clinton (A Baptist PROTESTANT) the Roman Catholic wafer god on his tongue!

Nicholas, this is old news.  Cardinal O’Connor gave a speach, the Holy Father also gave a speach, the South Aferican Bishops blushed, and the Church was universal in it’s insistance that the action of the President was clearly not in accord with Church Teaching. Nor was the action of the priest. Oh and the Catholic President of Ireland (Catholic) received communion in the Church of Ireland (Anglican Communion) and it too received much condemnation from the bishops and the Holy Father, and activity on this newsgroup. — |  _______          |Christopher Beattie |    801 Eisenhower Dr| | /__   __ Peace   |Tantalus Inc.       |   Key West, FL 33040| |    /    and     |Development Div.    |Phone: (305) 293-8100| |                   |#include <disclamer.standard.hpp         |

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thanks for the note.  I’ve tried checking anyway I can.  Did this come thru? jim Jasplourde: We are having difficulty reading your posts.  Check with aol, or do you have HTML on?  other aol’s are having prob’s today… KJ

Yes. The problem was with the quoting when the offline reader was used. Everyone seems to be coming through ok now. — RJ

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thanks for the note.  I’ve tried checking anyway I can.  Did this come thru? jim

Perfect.

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  First, it must be understood that the only ‘Church’ which has the Real Presence is the RCC and EOC, sinc eboth have maintained the Apostolic succession.

    Agreed.   In some other denominations (some Lutheran for example) they beleive that their faith is what makes it become the Real presence.   <snip   Likwise, if the Real presence appears ‘only’ at the persons belief, then the above passage makes no sense.

    Exactly.  Now my question was that since we know it to be an improper *Eucharist* at other churches, can we receive there, recognizing that it’s ONLY bread and wine at other churches? — Adam Knight Computer Science, 2001 — Baylor University, Waco, TX Mail me at funkyboy at swbell dot net

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<snip  First, it must be understood that the only ‘Church’ which has the Real Presence is the RCC and EOC, sinc eboth have maintained the Apostolic succession.

       I forgot to ask, Pat…does the Church consider it sinful for those who believe the Lord’s Supper to be symbolic…to believe so, considering the religious paradigms they are reared within? Pax Christi,  Pat       "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and        follow me" (Matt. 16:24)

Peace. Alan

Response:

thanks for the note.  I’ve tried checking anyway I can.  Did this come thru? jim Jasplourde: We are having difficulty reading your posts.  Check with aol, or do you have HTML on?  other aol’s are having prob’s today… KJ

  Seems this is an AOL glitch.  I can’t imagine my computer is making Jim’s posts act up. Pax Christi,  Pat        "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and         follow me" (Matt. 16:24)

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thanks for the note.  I’ve tried checking anyway I can.  Did this come thru? jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jasplourde: We are having difficulty reading your posts.  Check with aol, or do you have HTML on?  other aol’s are having prob’s today… KJ

Response:

<snip  First, it must be understood that the only ‘Church’ which has the Real Presence is the RCC and EOC, sinc eboth have maintained the Apostolic succession.

        What has come of the English Primate’s appeal to Rome?  In some other denominations (some Lutheran for example) they beleive that their faith is what makes it become the Real presence.

        I was not aware of the Lutheran’s view.  Do the Episcopalians view it so, or as symbolic?  However, this isn’t supported by Scripture:  " For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself." (1 Cor. 11:29)

        So those who believe it to be symbolic are, in their ignorance, discerning it correctly…for themselves?  Now, if the Eucharist was merely symbolic, then how could the reception of it brng a judgement?  Your brother would be right in thinking it unfair.

        I think he believes it to be real and I countered his accusation by telling him that he himself MAY be sinning in his abstention.  However, if it IS theReal Presence, and it’s reception without belief can bring a judgement then the withholding of it from non-Catholics is actually a sign of concern for them.

        I knew that it was for concern for them.  I explained this very thing to my brother and quoted the above verse.  He did not reply…perhaps he could not.  Likwise, if the Real presence appears ‘only’ at the persons belief, then the above passage makes no sense.

        Are there any passages the Lutherans use to uphold their contention?   Pax Christi,  Pat       "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and        follow me" (Matt. 16:24)    

Peace. Alan

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I will play your game if you can answer this one: FROM WHAT EARTHLY INSTITUTION DID JESUS HAVE A DEGREE THAT MERITED A TITLE OF RABBI ? If you answer this one I will e-mail you all of my degrees.

Well, he was taught by and teaching the rabbis and temple priests in the temple at a very early age, according to the evangalest. <G Of course being the Son of God, he got his degree from heaven. — |  _______          |Christopher Beattie |    801 Eisenhower Dr| | /__   __ Peace   |Tantalus Inc.       |   Key West, FL 33040| |    /    and     |Development Div.    |Phone: (305) 293-8100| |                   |#include <disclamer.standard.hpp         |

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Does any one expect the Roman Catholic Church to splinter any time soon if ever? The reason for this question is for my own personal interest. It seems that the Vatican is having a harder and harder time keeping the world wide Church in line with Catholic teaching. I know here in the states I read where a break off is possible to a more moderate doctorate.

<G You don’t know Catholic history very well do you? <G There was a time, in the history of the United States, where … (Have you ever seen the musical 1776?  Washington sends all these dispatches to congress and never gets a reply, eventually he writes "is anybody there?")  … the Holy Father wrote a series of letters to the Bishops of the United States strongly condemning the slavery issue which the bishops promptly threw in their circular files. — |  _______          |Christopher Beattie |    801 Eisenhower Dr| | /__   __ Peace   |Tantalus Inc.       |   Key West, FL 33040| |    /    and     |Development Div.    |Phone: (305) 293-8100| |                   |#include <disclamer.standard.hpp         |

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Oh and the Catholic President of Ireland (Catholic) received communion in the Church of Ireland (Anglican Communion) and it too received much condemnation from the bishops and the Holy Father, and activity on this newsgroup.    Which brings up a question I’ve had …    Can a Catholic who DOES NOT ACCEPT anyone else’s communion as a Eucharistic meal take communion elsewhere?  My thoughts are that since

       I think the Church presently forbids it. you don’t believe it’s anythign more, you’re not supporting it in your heart and merely following in their celebration of a symbolic meal…    Of course there’s the point of WHY you’d want to, seeing as the only reason we receive the Eucharist is because it’s Christ, anything less is just a piece of bread with a fancy name, but I think it’s an interesting topic none-the-less.

      I have held that the Lord’s Supper, held symbolically by many, is actually transformed during the service regardless of individual belief and for the sake of the faithful ignorant.  I can not state this as an absolute.  However, if the Transubstantiation requires one’s belief as is seemingly maintained, what of those born within the religious paradigms that regard it otherwise?  Are they to be held accountable?  Or, is ignorance truly bliss?  I can not see that whe- ther or not one believes changes the fact that the transformation occurs.  My brother, technically a Southern Baptist, has refrained from becoming Catholic as he claims the Church sins in not allowing the rest of Christianity to partake of the Eucharist.  However, he does not understand that Paul’s exhortation considering one’s conscience is not to be taken lightly.  Would Holy Church be desecrating the Eucharist in lifting the extra-Catholic ban as the Archbishop of Canterbury has requested, although seemingly only for  Anglicans?  In that anyone, regardless of whether they believe or not, may partake of the Eucharist in any Catholic Church throughout the world…is Vatican III in order?  Were Clin- ton’s thoughts upon his partaking ever brought to light?  Did he believe, or not? Does it matter?     Alan  

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Oh and the Catholic President of Ireland (Catholic) received communion in the Church of Ireland (Anglican Communion) and it too received much condemnation from the bishops and the Holy Father, and activity on this newsgroup.

    Which brings up a question I’ve had …     Can a Catholic who DOES NOT ACCEPT anyone else’s communion as a Eucharistic meal take communion elsewhere?  My thoughts are that since you don’t believe it’s anythign more, you’re not supporting it in your heart and merely following in their celebration of a symbolic meal…     Of course there’s the point of WHY you’d want to, seeing as the only reason we receive the Eucharist is because it’s Christ, anything less is just a piece of bread with a fancy name, but I think it’s an interesting topic none-the-less. — Adam Knight Computer Science, 2001 — Baylor University, Waco, TX Mail me at funkyboy at swbell dot net

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{snip} Still waiting for an answer:  Where is your degree from, REV? Mail order.  He’s taking the Bishops exam now and should hear back in 4-6 weeks.

LOL!  Well, Good luck to him.  I hear the questions on how to correctly unfold that hat are brutal.. Paul

KayJay BOYCOTT SHAMPOO!  Demand the REAL poo!

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} Still waiting for an answer:  Where is your degree from, REV? Mail order.  He’s taking the Bishops exam now and should hear back in 4-6 weeks.

    I want one too, can I get the address?

Response:

Jasplourde: We are having difficulty reading your posts.  Check with aol, or do you have HTML on?  other aol’s are having prob’s today… KJ

Response:

Mohiomi Makobane in Soweto, South Africa gave President Clinton (A Baptist PROTESTANT) the Roman Catholic wafer god on his tongue! From the church that never changes? AGAIN?  Nick, did your mother drop you on your head as a child???    This is old news, and true to form, you misquoted…..AGAIN!!!!   The priest was called to task for doing this.  (Not to mention that either Clinton’s Protocol people really blew this, or it was intention to place the priest in an akward position.)    The Church teaching hasn’t changed o witless one, but this priest evidently felt he either had to or could.  Either way, he blew it.   Pax Christi,  Pat        "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and         follow me" (Matt. 16:24)

Response:

to Christ. As a Christian shouldn’t one strive to have the qualities of Jesus { Christ Like }? Therefore one must compare himself to Christ.  I do however understand your frustration If you can’t attack the message you must attack the messenger common tactic. REV. FRANK  My Dear Rev (?) Frank.   Your talking to the wrong person.  Nick is the one who not only attacks the message, but the messenger as well.  When one defends the faith, Nick calls us liars and all sorts of garbage.      Please pay attention.   Pax Christi,  Pat        "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and         follow me" (Matt. 16:24)

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((and degrees you get from sending in boxtops from Holy Wheaties don’t count either…))

Well carp, there goes my STL — Steve *Email address is spamtected: "bellsouth.net" not "bellsmouth.cheeseguard.net"*

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Great, just great…another yahoo comparing himself to Christ. As a Christian shouldn’t one strive to have the qualities of Jesus { Christ Like }? Therefore one must compare himself to Christ.  I do however understand your frustration If you can’t attack the message you must attack the messenger common tactic.

You are merely yet another loser in a long line of losers who drop by this newsgroup and spin your yarns and spew your filth. The general trend (which you seem to fit) is to arrive huffing with "major news" for the poor deluded catlicks which we’ve all seen before, countless times. Phase II is the "I am persecuted" section. Then comes the great "I am like Christ, how dare you question me". Rather than mess with all the intermediary steps, I prefer to get right to the final stage…the one where you bugger off with your messiah complex. — Steve *Email address is spamtected: "bellsouth.net" not "bellsmouth.cheeseguard.net"*

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Uh huh…the old "I’ll answer a question with ANOTHER question, and maybe no one will notice I’m dodging" approach… Goodbye troll. When confronted with Pharisees and hypocrites a young man about 2000 years ago would return a question for a question. That approach confounded them then and also today.

Well, if you must think that you confounded me then think it. It is of little concern to me. As for the answer to your question you will find it in Teds post. It is accurate. I did wonder at the comparison between yourself and Jesus in the matter of religious education. There is quite a difference in qualification between the Son of God interpreting scripture and the average Joe who just picked up the Bible and started reading- or are you saying that you are one and the same as Jesus. — RJ

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{snip} Still waiting for an answer:  Where is your degree from, REV? {snip}

Mail order.  He’s taking the Bishops exam now and should hear back in 4-6 weeks. Paul

Response:

writes:  I will play your game if you can answer this one: FROM WHAT EARTHLY INSTITUTION DID JESUS HAVE A DEGREE THAT MERITED A TITLE OF RABBI ? If you answer this one I will e-mail you all of my degrees.  Actually, Jesus is firmly in the school of Hillel – the "gentler" pharisees. Go back and read the Talmud (Okay, maybe not all the volumes).  jim

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On March 29th Roman Catholic priest Mohiomi Makobane in Soweto, South Africa gave President Clinton (A Baptist PROTESTANT) the Roman Catholic wafer god on his tongue! From the church that never changes? AGAIN? Truth is truth. …Nicholas

Does any one expect the Roman Catholic Church to splinter any time soon if ever? The reason for this question is for my own personal interest. It seems that the Vatican is having a harder and harder time keeping the world wide Church in line with Catholic teaching. I know here in the states I read where a break off is possible to a more moderate doctorate. Thanks, God loves us all, REV. FRANK { non Catholic }

Response:

Uh huh…the old "I’ll answer a question with ANOTHER question, and maybe no one will notice I’m dodging" approach… Goodbye troll. When confronted with Pharisees and hypocrites a young man about 2000 years ago would return a question for a question. That approach confounded them then and also today. REV. FRANK

  Oh, now I see why you’re so confused Frank!!! Pax Christi,  Pat        "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and         follow me" (Matt. 16:24)

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