Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is the first known mention of the word Catholic. You were correct. Very historical. Of course it won’t mean anything to anti-Catholic types. It just enhances our faith … The word "Catholic" first appears in a letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch (110 A.D.) to distinguish Christ’s Church from heretical groups [William A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers (Collegeville, Minn. : Liturgical Press, 1970) Vol. 1, p. 25, #65]. The word "Christian" also originated in Antioch (Acts 11:26). St. Ignatius’ letter indicates that, by 110 A.D.. the original Christian Church was already well known as the "Catholic Church." Cut this bad boy out and paste it into your word processor for future use. The book faith of the Early Fathers by William Jurgens is a must have for Catholcs who want to know what the early Christian (i.e., Catholics) believed. Its the same as we believe today. Fascinating stuff! You can get it at any Catholic Book store for Catholic library. Peace be with you my friend, Bruce Point of order…In St. Ignatius letter the words ‘catholic church’ were not capitalized — couldn’t be, capitalization did not exist then. He was not speaking of the institution you know of as the RCC, but of the ‘universal’ church composed of the seven Holy Sees (Eparchies). — Christos Voskrese – Christ Is Risen 2nd point of order: My American Heritage Dictionary says: (note: the small ‘c’) catholic= 1. Universal; comprehensive. 2. Catholic = Of, or pertaining to Catholics or to the Roman Catholic Church. 3. -n. Catholic = a member of the Roman Catholic Church. So, with or without capitilization the Roman Catholic Church IS THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH spoken of in the letter. So much for that! P.
A western dictionary, written by westerners for westerners. I would refer you to the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church, the Ethiopian Orthodox Catholic Church, etc. These were all parts of the seven sees that made up the original catholic church (of which Rome was just 1/7th of). The letter referred to the whole church, not just the Roman part. — Christos Voskrese – Christ Is Risen "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Response:
A western dictionary, written by westerners for westerners. I would refer you to the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church, the Ethiopian Orthodox Catholic Church, etc. These were all parts of the seven sees that made up the original catholic church (of which Rome was just 1/7th of). The letter referred to the whole church, not just the Roman part.
The word catholic then meant universal just as it does now. However, the difference lies in how we use it now. Then it was universal because all Christians believed the same way. Now we have to change the word because some Christians split off of from the Church Christ started. So now it implies the Roman Catholic Church, though admittedly there are other "Catholic" churches out there. Like I said, it IMPLIES. Joe
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Point of order…In St. Ignatius letter the words ‘catholic church’ we= re not capitalized — couldn’t be, capitalization did not exist then. He = was not speaking of the institution you know of as the RCC, but of the ‘universal’ church composed of the seven Holy Sees (Eparchies). Since capitalization had not been invented, it cannot be used as an argument either way. St. Ignatius was clearly using the term "CAtholic" (or "catholic") to distinguish the church universal from the heretical sects. Agreed, but there must be some differentiation now, since the church is no longer one as it was in his day. Again, he was refering to the universal church, not the Church of Rome specifically. Nor do catholics refer to the church of Rome, specifically, when we call ourselves "catholic." That’s one response I sometimes give to protestants when they call me a "Roman." "I’m a minnesotan! I’ve never even _been_ to Italy." Just because we are catholics doesn’t mean we live in or are a part of the diocese of Rome.
Perhaps not, but in the sense of the original church started by the Apostles, your branch was referred to as the Church of Rome. Others included the Church of Jerusalem (first of the seven), the Church of Antioch, the Church of Ethipoia, etc. — Christos Voskrese – Christ Is Risen "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is the first known mention of the word Catholic. You were correct. Very historical. Of course it won’t mean anything to anti-Catholic types. It just enhances our faith … The word "Catholic" first appears in a letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch (110 A.D.) to distinguish Christ’s Church from heretical groups [William A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers (Collegeville, Minn. : Liturgical Press, 1970) Vol. 1, p. 25, #65]. The word "Christian" also originated in Antioch (Acts 11:26). St. Ignatius’ letter indicates that, by 110 A.D.. the original Christian Church was already well known as the "Catholic Church." Cut this bad boy out and paste it into your word processor for future use. The book faith of the Early Fathers by William Jurgens is a must have for Catholcs who want to know what the early Christian (i.e., Catholics) believed. Its the same as we believe today. Fascinating stuff! You can get it at any Catholic Book store for Catholic library. Peace be with you my friend, Bruce Point of order…In St. Ignatius letter the words ‘catholic church’ were not capitalized — couldn’t be, capitalization did not exist then. He was not speaking of the institution you know of as the RCC, but of the ‘universal’ church composed of the seven Holy Sees (Eparchies). — Christos Voskrese – Christ Is Risen
2nd point of order: My American Heritage Dictionary says: (note: the small ‘c’) catholic= 1. Universal; comprehensive. 2. Catholic = Of, or pertaining to Catholics or to the Roman Catholic Church. 3. -n. Catholic = a member of the Roman Catholic Church. So, with or without capitilization the Roman Catholic Church IS THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH spoken of in the letter. So much for that! P.
Response:
David G, this sounds like a line I heard a while back "I didn’t lie, I only mislead".
What a class act you are! (I’m being sarcastic) Someone takes the time to humbly, gracefully, and carefully explain the faith and you call him a liar! Is that how your mother raised you? If so, I really feel sorry for you. Any decent woman would be ashamed to have such a wicked son as you. Do you think that people will be attracted to the Protestant religion by people who act like you? No one who loves Christ would ever want to belong to a religion that turns him into a prideful, hateful person such as yourself.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is the first known mention of the word Catholic. You were correct. Very historical. Of course it won’t mean anything to anti-Catholic types. It just enhances our faith … The word "Catholic" first appears in a letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch (110 A.D.) to distinguish Christ’s Church from heretical groups [William A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers (Collegeville, Minn. : Liturgical Press, 1970) Vol. 1, p. 25, #65]. The word "Christian" also originated in Antioch (Acts 11:26). St. Ignatius’ letter indicates that, by 110 A.D.. the original Christian Church was already well known as the "Catholic Church." Cut this bad boy out and paste it into your word processor for future use. The book faith of the Early Fathers by William Jurgens is a must have for Catholcs who want to know what the early Christian (i.e., Catholics) believed. Its the same as we believe today. Fascinating stuff! You can get it at any Catholic Book store for Catholic library. Peace be with you my friend, Bruce Point of order…In St. Ignatius letter the words ‘catholic church’ were not capitalized — couldn’t be, capitalization did not exist then. He was not speaking of the institution you know of as the RCC, but of the ‘universal’ church composed of the seven Holy Sees (Eparchies). Capitalization doesn’t really have a specific meaning. Of course you and we differ on exactly what the Catholic (or catholic–no diff) church is, but capitalization has nothing to do with it. I think we agree that it is something different than the thousands of denominations stemming from the revolution of Luther, Calvin et al — that it must be catholic and orthodox. We should always avoid reading anything at all into capital letters. Especially in languages like english where capitalization is so random and haphazard. Used to be all nouns and only nouns were capitalized, like German. Then proper nouns plus some common nouns and some adjectives, without a general rule. Now it’s going through a really chaotic phase moving (probably) to a more international standard usage: proper nouns and titles only. In spanish they don’t even capitalize titles of books except for the first word. I think that’s about where english will end up. Capitalization is a modern way of differentiating between the RCC itself, and the term catholic when used to mean universal. It’s important to keep that distinction, since there is a difference now (unlike in the first centuries).
I’m sorry to have to disagree, but linguistics and the study of language change is a serious avocation of mine and I’m pretty sure that you are mistaken on this point. For one thing, no catholic calls the church the "RCC." That is a protestant term meant to denograte. Secondly, "catholic" is sometimes capitalized and sometimes not, in a quite random or chaotic fashion. You will only be confused if you try to read something into it. As you have pointed out, at one time they didn’t even have capital letters.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Point of order…In St. Ignatius letter the words ‘catholic church’ were not capitalized — couldn’t be, capitalization did not exist then. He was not speaking of the institution you know of as the RCC, but of the ‘universal’ church composed of the seven Holy Sees (Eparchies). Since capitalization had not been invented, it cannot be used as an argument either way. St. Ignatius was clearly using the term "CAtholic" (or "catholic") to distinguish the church universal from the heretical sects. Agreed, but there must be some differentiation now, since the church is no longer one as it was in his day. Again, he was refering to the universal church, not the Church of Rome specifically.
Nor do catholics refer to the church of Rome, specifically, when we call ourselves "catholic." That’s one response I sometimes give to protestants when they call me a "Roman." "I’m a minnesotan! I’ve never even _been_ to Italy." Just because we are catholics doesn’t mean we live in or are a part of the diocese of Rome.
Response:
David G, this sounds like a line I heard a while back "I didn’t lie, I only mislead". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Suzanne: I read your post and thought I would make a few comments. I am an apologist (Someone who explains the faith) and I love explaining the Catholic faith to non-Catholics. You are very correct when you state that the words Pope, catholic, apostolic, etc are not found in the Bible. The word Catholic was first used, I think by Ignatius, but don’t quote me; that sticks in my mind. Catholics don’t base their faith entirely on "Bible Alone." We of course use Holy Scripture, tradition and the Church. Christ founded the Church which as I Timothy 3:15 states is the pillar and foundation of truth. Christ gave his authority to the Church in Matthew 16:19, 18:18, 28:16-20. We believe that Peter was the first Pope and his successors carried on this authority. Now you obviously don’t. That’s why you are Protestant and we are Catholics. I disagree when you say we have added to scripture. We haven’t added to scripture, we have added to faith. There is a big difference. Protestants and Catholics have both added to faith but the only person who has ever added or taken away from Scripture was Martin Luther and the Reformers. Whenever the Catholic Church is challenged on an issue it clarifies but it can never change its doctrines. If you would read in John 21:25 you see these words…"There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written." This is why we don’t believe in "Bible Alone." We are not allowed to add to scripture. I am sorry a Catholic has told you that…you have my apology for that. Remember also that there was no New Testament until the end of the 4th century. How did faith survive that long without a bible? The Church! Christ founded a Church and the Church in turn saw a need to write and canonize Holy Scripture. Not until the printing press was the Bible in the hands of the average man. Most of them couldn’t read anyway and that is why the Bible is read to them during the Mass. If you have other questions about our faith please feel free to ask. Please don’t ask me to limit my answers to the "Bible Alone" because for us the Bible is taught through the Church, not through any personal interpretation because…no prophecy of scripture…is a matter of personal interpretation." (II Peter 1:20-21) God Bless! David G.
Response:
Point of order…In St. Ignatius letter the words ‘catholic church’ were not capitalized — couldn’t be, capitalization did not exist then. He was not speaking of the institution you know of as the RCC, but of the ‘universal’ church composed of the seven Holy Sees (Eparchies). Since capitalization had not been invented, it cannot be used as an argument either way. St. Ignatius was clearly using the term "CAtholic" (or "catholic") to distinguish the church universal from the heretical sects.
Agreed, but there must be some differentiation now, since the church is no longer one as it was in his day. Again, he was refering to the universal church, not the Church of Rome specifically. — Christos Voskrese – Christ Is Risen "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Response:
Point of order…In St. Ignatius letter the words ‘catholic church’ were not capitalized — couldn’t be, capitalization did not exist then. He was not speaking of the institution you know of as the RCC, but of the ‘universal’ church composed of the seven Holy Sees (Eparchies). Since capitalization had not been invented, it cannot be used as an argument either way. St. Ignatius was clearly using the term "CAtholic" (or "catholic") to distinguish the church universal from the heretical sects.
A study of which is both dismal and enlightening. The sad thing is, they are all still with us, with the Protestant personal interpretation of scripture they keep reappearing. Gnostics? Sure, there are plenty of gnostics out there; there’s at least two gnostic churches in my neighborhood (of course they don’t advertise themselves as Gnostic). Arianism? We all know there are plenty of twentieth-century Arians. Donatism? If you enquire into people’s idea of the nature of Christ, you will find there are lots of Donatists out there. This isn’t suprising if people think they can interpret the scriptures idiosyncratically outside of the church and outside of tradition–Donatism is an easy mistake to make. The list goes on dismally…
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is the first known mention of the word Catholic. You were correct. Very historical. Of course it won’t mean anything to anti-Catholic types. It just enhances our faith … The word "Catholic" first appears in a letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch (110 A.D.) to distinguish Christ’s Church from heretical groups [William A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers (Collegeville, Minn. : Liturgical Press, 1970) Vol. 1, p. 25, #65]. The word "Christian" also originated in Antioch (Acts 11:26). St. Ignatius’ letter indicates that, by 110 A.D.. the original Christian Church was already well known as the "Catholic Church." Cut this bad boy out and paste it into your word processor for future use. The book faith of the Early Fathers by William Jurgens is a must have for Catholcs who want to know what the early Christian (i.e., Catholics) believed. Its the same as we believe today. Fascinating stuff! You can get it at any Catholic Book store for Catholic library. Peace be with you my friend, Bruce Point of order…In St. Ignatius letter the words ‘catholic church’ were not capitalized — couldn’t be, capitalization did not exist then. He was not speaking of the institution you know of as the RCC, but of the ‘universal’ church composed of the seven Holy Sees (Eparchies). Capitalization doesn’t really have a specific meaning. Of course you and we differ on exactly what the Catholic (or catholic–no diff) church is, but capitalization has nothing to do with it. I think we agree that it is something different than the thousands of denominations stemming from the revolution of Luther, Calvin et al — that it must be catholic and orthodox. We should always avoid reading anything at all into capital letters. Especially in languages like english where capitalization is so random and haphazard. Used to be all nouns and only nouns were capitalized, like German. Then proper nouns plus some common nouns and some adjectives, without a general rule. Now it’s going through a really chaotic phase moving (probably) to a more international standard usage: proper nouns and titles only. In spanish they don’t even capitalize titles of books except for the first word. I think that’s about where english will end up.
Capitalization is a modern way of differentiating between the RCC itself, and the term catholic when used to mean universal. It’s important to keep that distinction, since there is a difference now (unlike in the first centuries). — Christos Voskrese – Christ Is Risen "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is the first known mention of the word Catholic. You were correct. Very historical. Of course it won’t mean anything to anti-Catholic types. It just enhances our faith … The word "Catholic" first appears in a letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch (110 A.D.) to distinguish Christ’s Church from heretical groups [William A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers (Collegeville, Minn. : Liturgical Press, 1970) Vol. 1, p. 25, #65]. The word "Christian" also originated in Antioch (Acts 11:26). St. Ignatius’ letter indicates that, by 110 A.D.. the original Christian Church was already well known as the "Catholic Church." Cut this bad boy out and paste it into your word processor for future use. The book faith of the Early Fathers by William Jurgens is a must have for Catholcs who want to know what the early Christian (i.e., Catholics) believed. Its the same as we believe today. Fascinating stuff! You can get it at any Catholic Book store for Catholic library. Peace be with you my friend, Bruce
Point of order…In St. Ignatius letter the words ‘catholic church’ were not capitalized — couldn’t be, capitalization did not exist then. He was not speaking of the institution you know of as the RCC, but of the ‘universal’ church composed of the seven Holy Sees (Eparchies). — Christos Voskrese – Christ Is Risen "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Response:
Point of order…In St. Ignatius letter the words ‘catholic church’ were not capitalized — couldn’t be, capitalization did not exist then. He was not speaking of the institution you know of as the RCC, but of the ‘universal’ church composed of the seven Holy Sees (Eparchies).
Since capitalization had not been invented, it cannot be used as an argument either way. St. Ignatius was clearly using the term "CAtholic" (or "catholic") to distinguish the church universal from the heretical sects. — John C. M
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