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Bible being inspired

Question:

Jerome translated the Apochryphal books "against his better judgement." Even in his time, they were subject to debate. Those books refer to Jewish history and they don’t accept them as Holy Writ, either.

Jay, *sigh*… it is apparent that you don’t know as much about this topic as you profess. Please show us you’ve done your homeword and amend that statement of "they [Jews] don’t accept them as Holy Writ" to include the Jews that DO and always HAVE accepted those books in their canon. And certainly thos books refer to Jewish history…what do you think the whole OT is????? God bless, Jay KayJay Sirach 38:9

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oooooh good one Jay. I’m sure Steve is staggered by the impact of that statement. WHY are you here???? KayJay Sirach 38:9

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public consumption – let’s see if they are worth reading: *10 God by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predestined certain men to eternal blessedness. *betcha didn’t know THAT one.*

This one I knew. *11 God by an Eternal Resolved of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection. *so much for "we’re all going to heaven"*

This one I didn’t know, and for a minute it raised some alarms, because the Catechism states: "God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end." (#1037, references the 2nd Council of Orange, and Trent) Soooo, I zoomed over to Dave Armstrong’s website where he has an excerpt from Ludwig Ott’s "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" on predestination. The URL is: http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM And after skimming it once, I’m a little confused. In the latter half of the document, Ott confirms the second doctrine you list above as ‘de fide’. But in the introduction to the article, Dave Armstrong says: The Catholic Church, following St. Augustine (e.g., Grace and Free Will, 1,1; Sermon 169, 11,13), accepts predestination of the elect to heaven, but also affirms the freedom of the human will, thus staking out a position distinct from Calvinism. Predestination to hell, in Catholicism, always involves man’s free will, and foreseen sins, so that man is ultimately responsible for his own damnation, not God (double predestination is rejected).

Ott says: Heretical Predestinationism in its various forms (the Southern Gallic priest Lucidus in the 5th century; the monk Gottschalk in the 9th century, according to reports of his opponents, which, however, find no confirmation in his recently re-discovered writings; Wycliffe, Hus, and esp. Calvin), teaches a positive predetermination to sin, and an unconditional Predestination to the eternal punishment of hell, that is, without consideration of future demerits. This was rejected as false doctrine by the Particular Synods of Orange, Quiercy & Valence and by the Council of Trent. Unconditioned positive Reprobation leads to a denial of the universality of the Divine Desire for salvation, and of the Redemption, and contradicts the Justice and Holiness of God as well as the freedom of man.

So if I read all this properly, the Church rejects *absolute positive* reprobation, i.e. reprobation without consideration of a particular person’s forseen demerits. The Catechism, unfortunately, does not seem to explain this as clearly as it should. Am I missing something here? If so, please tell me. — http://www.labs.net/curtis (Handicapped Encounter Christ homepage) ICQ Communications Center: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/9628448 "Friends don’t let friends read Chick tracts" - Quackenbush in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, 25 May 1998

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Truth hurts, don’t it?

You really are annoying. I’ll tell you what hurts! The internal struggle between my intellect acknowledging anti-Catholics are vain little egos searching for a "g"od that will let them write the rules and my emotions crying out that there must be some hope for them. It hurts to KNOW that NON-Catholics are missing the REAL Christ and therefore, THE Christ. I *HOPE* they get a second chance… ENOUGH! You are out of my hands! I have nothing to offer you. Because you will not have my Jesus. So, some questions for my co-religionists. (quite frankly, I have used up my words on most of the rest of you.) As Catholics, we MUST believe the following (among other things): *1. God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty, by the natural light of reason from created things. *2. The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from a Single Principle through a Single Spiration. 3. Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are EXCLUDED from the Beatific Vision of God. 4. Jesus Christ is True God and True Son of God. 5. Fallen man CANNOT redeem himself. *6. Mary is TRULY the Mother of God. *7. Mary was conceived without stain of original sin. *8. After the birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin *9. Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven. *10 God by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predestined certain men to eternal blessedness. *betcha didn’t know THAT one.* *11 God by an Eternal Resolved of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection. *so much for "we’re all going to heaven"* *12 Christ gave His Church an hierarchical constitution. *13. According to Christ’s ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Church and for all time. *14. The successors of Peter in the Primacy are the bishops of Rome. *15. The Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in Church discipline and in the government of the Church. *16. The Church founded by Christ is unique and one. *17. Membership of the Church is necessary for all men for salvation. *18. It is permissible and profitable to: a) venerate the Saints in Heaven and to invoke their intercession. b) venerate the relics of the Saints. c)venerate images of the Saints. *19. All Sacraments of the New Covenant were instituted by Jesus Christ. There are seven sacraments of the New Law. The Sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for the salvation of mankind. *20 Baptism by water (baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. *21 The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ are truly, really and substantially present in the Eucharist. *22 The Worship of Adoration (latria) MUST be given to Christ present in the Eucharist. *23 The power of consecration resides in a validly consecrated priest only. *24 The Holy Mass is a true and proper Sacrifice. *25 In the Sacrifice of the Mass, Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross is made present, its memory is celebrated, and its saving power is applied. *26 The Church has received from Christ the power of remitting sins committed after Baptism. *27. The Sacramental confession of sins is ordained by God and is necessary for salvation. *I’ve seen THIS one recently denied by Catholics in this ng* *28. The sole possessors of the Church’s Power of Absolution are the bishops and priests. *29 The Church possesses the power to grant Indulgences. 30 The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell. *31 The souls of the Just which at the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory. Well, that’s just a skim off the top of specific dogmatic statements that are De Fide. As Catholics we MUST assent to all of them. I’ve put an "*" in front of those which non Catholics or anti-Catholics (but people who claim to be "Christians") have denied recently on this ng, I’ve probably missed some… My question is; how many can a non-Catholic deny before they’re "lost"? — Steve "We are in schism." Fr. John Hardon, July 11, 1998

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| | A stint in alt.atheism might be just the ticket…that is if you do not wish |to abandon the newsgroups for a time and rest. | |Alan | Well if one must (hehe) however I can’t honestly say I would NOT subscribe to sending anyone there (UNLESS) they put on the Full Armor of the Lord ! And if ya don’t believe me ! Well I have spent much time there and I can say I have never heard such terrible outburst from people (atheist) as I have in my visit to that NG. I actually didn’t get much of an opportunity to speak on the topic of faith, as I was extremely engaged against the vile attacks and profanities, not only against myself, but also against my immediate family, (who by the way never addressed them in any form or measure) I was also reported to my ISP for spamming :( I grow weary having to define every word, and syllable that I utter in defense of decency and good moral edict. And that is exactly what one will be called to do if one decides if your Christian) If your atheist there seems to be a no holds barred attitude that prevails amongst them. Brothers and sisters in Christ, I gotta tell ya ! Its rough over I guess if I were a bit younger, I could put up with it a little more, but I feel I must slow down and return home here for a retreat, (not defeat) :) God bless and keep you all in His care. And let us pray together for the salvation of those especially in the Atheist camp, that their eyes will some day be open to Gods TRUTH !

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. By the way, the Bible you read violates that, since seven books of the Septaugint, the Vulgate, the Gutenberg Bible, the Ethiopian scriptures and the Orthodox Bible were thrown out by Martin Luther. (which shows how little respect he had for the Bible)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As anyone knows, when something is down in writing, there can be no question as to what it says. That sentence is just plain false. But I’m so tired of practically every thread in this group right now that I’m falling asleep marking posts read. I’ve just realized something… I’M BORED. :< I’m not even bored "silly". I’m totally uninterested bored…I’m stiff as a BOARD bored. All this non-Catholic doctrine and "make it up as you go along Christianity" has just worn me out. I’m so tired of it, I can’t even work up the energy to refute it anymore. It’s Mac vs Windows… Flatish Earth vs Roundish Earth… USA vs the UN… Democrats vs Republicans… The Church of Pius V vs the Church of Paul VI… (wait…that last one actually interests me) I’m done with the anti-Catholics, so unless something REALLY grabs me by the whiskers…I have nothing more to say to any of them. Thank you and good night. — Steve

Truth hurts, don’t it?

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Keep the faith Steve (and Legatus). Most people out there don’t have the truth but a few do. Don’t let the shallow ones discourage you. Take a break if you must, but keep searching for the truth, becuase it is out there and it can be found. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As anyone knows, when something is down in writing, there can be no question as to what it says. That sentence is just plain false. But I’m so tired of practically every thread in this group right now that I’m falling asleep marking posts read. I’ve just realized something… I’M BORED. :< I’m not even bored "silly". I’m totally uninterested bored…I’m stiff as a BOARD bored.

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As anyone knows, when something is down in writing, there can be no question as to what it says.

That sentence is just plain false. But I’m so tired of practically every thread in this group right now that I’m falling asleep marking posts read. I’ve just realized something… I’M BORED. :< I’m not even bored "silly". I’m totally uninterested bored…I’m stiff as a BOARD bored. All this non-Catholic doctrine and "make it up as you go along Christianity" has just worn me out. I’m so tired of it, I can’t even work up the energy to refute it anymore. It’s Mac vs Windows… Flatish Earth vs Roundish Earth… USA vs the UN… Democrats vs Republicans… The Church of Pius V vs the Church of Paul VI… (wait…that last one actually interests me) I’m done with the anti-Catholics, so unless something REALLY grabs me by the whiskers…I have nothing more to say to any of them. Thank you and good night. — Steve

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A stint in alt.atheism might be just the ticket…that is if you do not wish to abandon the newsgroups for a time and rest. Alan

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rilu says: As anyone knows, when something is down in writing, there can be no question as to what it says

HAHAHAHA!!!! IT SAYS nothing. Words are printed sounds. Sounds make words. Words make thoughts. Thoughts make doctrines – endless errors can arise from step A to step D. But when you pass information orally, it can easily be altered and can be difficult to trace it back very far to see if what we have now reflects the original statement.

This means nothing – having a copy of the US Constitution does not make one a judge. But the same can’t be said for oral traditions. Over the years, the end result can be no way near the original statement.

Apparently you don’t trust the Church Jesus established. Almighty God in His wisdom saw to it that His commands and council was put down in writing so as to avoid much of the error caused from oral transmissions.

Bull. I suppose every Jew had a copy of the Old Testament on his night table? "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

St. Paul was talking to Timothy – not the average beanhead. What’s surprising is that St. Paul said so little about the value of scripture. As you can see he did not include any oral traditions or anything else.

Apparently you don’t know your scripture. You also must think that St. Paul spent his whole life writing a dozen or so letters. They probably took him a little over a week to write, all tolled. What do you think he did day to day? He spoke, and taught with authority, and passed that authority down. Thus nothing else would be needed. The information in the Bible is all a person needs to gain salvation, to make him "thoroughly equipped."

There was no New Testament when St. Paul wrote that, so if that’s what St. Paul meant, he would have been referring to the Old Testament only. The traditions or precepts that were transmitted orally at first by Jesus and the apostles and that were to be considered part of God’s revelation of truth for following generations were committed to writing under the direction of the holy spirit, so that before the death of John, the last of the twelve apostles, the canon of the Scriptures was completed.

Let me get this straight. So immediately after St. John died, all the Bishops lost their authority, and the letters and gospels became the sole source of truth? You are miles from nowhere, bub. Scriptures was completed. Appropriately John wrote shortly before his death: "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book

What book? You are trying to put forth the absurd notion that St. John knew he was writing the last book of the Bible when he wrote that? You must be kidding. By the way, the Bible you read violates that, since seven books of the Septaugint, the Vulgate, the Gutenberg Bible, the Ethiopian scriptures and the Orthodox Bible were thrown out by Martin Luther. (which shows how little respect he had for the Bible) BAm

Response:

Ah, "Anti-Catholic Burnout!" I’ve been there, Steve. But there IS a cure. First, I assume you organize these posts alphabetically. If so, go way up the the top and read the threads titled, "interpretation and Catholics." Watch the masters in actions as they refute every noun, verb and adjective that comes to our little group from Catholic Basher JasonTE. In ten minutes I learned about a year’s worth of catechism and came away feeling like we WILL win this battle for souls because we ARE right (thank you, Peter and Padraic — you guys are the best!). Steve, put a cool washcloth on your forehead and lay down for a few minutes. Talk to "the other Steph" about flowers or something. Come back tomorrow when you’re tan, rested and ready. Dooley

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That….is…..so…..cool! <ding Lightbulb going off… KayJay Sirach 38:9

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I was wondering if the people on the newsgroup would agree with this quote ‘Everything in the Bible is inspired, but not everything that is inspired is in the Bible’ — <Carleton University<IVCF Treasurer<St. Marys’s Church …. "Rejoice always; pray without ceasing; in everything give thanks" 1st Thessalonians 5: 16-18 ** I wish I could do this **

Joseph, As anyone knows, when something is down in writing, there can be no question as to what it says. But when you pass information orally, it can easily be altered and can be difficult to trace it back very far to see if what we have now reflects the original statement. For example, we know that the writings of the Bible today reflect very close to what was originally written. When we compare the oldest manuscripts with the later ones, very few errors of any consequence are found (most are grammatical or spelling differences, etc.) The writings are remarkable close, considering the amount of years involved. But the same can’t be said for oral traditions. Over the years, the end result can be no way near the original statement. Almighty God in His wisdom saw to it that His commands and council was put down in writing so as to avoid much of the error caused from oral transmissions. Interestingly, notice what the Apostle Paul says when talking about things inspired of God. 2 Ti 3:16,17, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." As you can see he did not include any oral traditions or anything else. In verse 17 in reference to "scripture", he said that using scripture would make a person "thoroughly equipped for every good work." Thus nothing else would be needed. The information in the Bible is all a person needs to gain salvation, to make him "thoroughly equipped." The traditions or precepts that were transmitted orally at first by Jesus and the apostles and that were to be considered part of God’s revelation of truth for following generations were committed to writing under the direction of the holy spirit, so that before the death of John, the last of the twelve apostles, the canon of the Scriptures was completed. Appropriately John wrote shortly before his death: "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." (Re 22:18,19; NIV) Thus, according to the above Bible scriptures, your original statement could be amended to read: "Everything in the Bible is inspired, and only everything that is inspired is in the Bible" Sincerely, James Have Jehovah’s Witnesses questions? Go to the only authorized source: http://www.watchtower.org

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As anyone knows, when something is down in writing, there can be no question as to what it says. But when you pass information orally, it can easily be altered and can be difficult to trace it back very far to see if what we have now reflects the original statement.

However, prior to the printing press, oral memories were far more developed than the are now. The printed word has created a dependency on printing that has slowly eroded our ability to remember oral communications. It is my understanding that when the Coptics first wrote down their liturgy, there was some controversy over whether they should do so. Some people felt that writing it down would make change creep into it, since people would stop memorizing it.

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: Everything written in the Bible is inspired, but not everything in the RC : bible is inspired. You mean the couple of old testement bookes like Sirach, Wisdom and Maccabees – Have you ever read these books, read them and then tell me if they COULD be inspired or not. : Also, of those inspired writings not in the Bible, by whose authority are : they determined to be inspired? That is for one to pray about, I’m just saying that it is possible for the Holy Spirit to direct one to anothers writing that is inspired by God. : There were inspired writings not included in the biblical canon, probably : because of repetition. The Holy Spirit directed those whom He chose to : include those which best fit the purpose of the written Word. Can the Holy Spirit inspire us? not with new thing, but with clairifications of the scriptures to be used in our own life. — <Carleton University<IVCF Treasurer<St. Marys’s Church …. "Rejoice always; pray without ceasing; in everything give thanks" 1st Thessalonians 5: 16-18 ** I wish I could do this **

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Also, of those inspired writings not in the Bible, by whose authority are they determined to be inspired?

The Authority of: A) the universal church council in the 4th century B) "reformers" who knew better over 1000 yrs later. Pick one. There were inspired writings not included in the biblical canon, probably because of repetition. The Holy Spirit directed those whom He chose to include those which best fit the purpose of the written Word.

Yes, the HS sure did…. and then the Reformers decided they knew better than the church, and glammed onto some Jewish council which was not universal… Jay, I think you might have missed my questions to you: Does 90AD mean anything? What do you know of Jamnia? Do you think that the Catholics added the deuterocanon, and when? God bless, Jay

KayJay Sirach 38:9

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I was wondering if the people on the newsgroup would agree with this quote ‘Everything in the Bible is inspired, but not everything that is inspired is in the Bible’

If that’s *not* true, we’d all be Protestant. — Adam Knight Computer Science, 2001 — Baylor University, Waco, TX Mail me at funkyboy at swbell dot net

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I recently read that the Book of Wisdom (Wisdom of Solomon) was not even written by Solomon, but was probably written in Egypt around 100 BC. (Why they say Egypt, I don’t know). The essence of the report was that ‘Wisdom’ talked about the Greek ideas of immortality, and not about the ressurection of the dead. How could this be inspired, canonized Scripture when it contradicts the rest of the Bible? Your thoughts, please. God bless, Jay

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I absolutely love "Wisdom". I remember seeing a protestant quoting from the 2nd chapter "For haphazard were we born, and hereafter we shall be as though we had not been" and exclaiming…"See, this contradicts EVERYTHING!". So, I read the book…and found out the man was either a liar or an idiot. (Sorry about the length of the citation, but I really like it, it reads like "The Syllabus of Errors".) The "righteous man" mentioned is a messianic allusion if ever I’ve seen one. This is "self attesting" Scripture at its finest: Chapter 2 1 For they reasoned unsoundly, saying to themselves, "Short and sorrowful is our life, and there is no remedy when a man comes to his end, and no one has been known to return from Hades. 2 Because we were born by mere chance, and hereafter we shall be as though we had never been; because the breath in our nostrils is smoke, and reason is a spark kindled by the beating of our hearts. 3 When it is extinguished, the body will turn to ashes, and the spirit will dissolve like empty air. 4 Our name will be forgotten in time and no one will remember our works; our life will pass away like the traces of a cloud, and be scattered like mist that is chased by the rays of the sun and overcome by its heat. 5 For our allotted time is the passing of a shadow, and there is no return from our death, because it is sealed up and no one turns back. 6 "Come, therefore, let us enjoy the good things that exist, and make use of the creation to the full as in youth. 7 Let us take our fill of costly wine and perfumes, and let no flower of spring pass by us. 8 Let us crown ourselves with rosebuds before they wither. 9 Let none of us fail to share in our revelry, everywhere let us leave signs of enjoyment, because this is our portion, and this our lot. 10 Let us oppress the righteous poor man; let us not spare the widow nor regard the gray hairs of the aged. 11 But let our might be our law of right, for what is weak proves itself to be useless. ***below is the NEAT part*** 12 "Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. 13 He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord. 14 He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; 15 the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. 16 We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. 17 Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; 18 for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. 19 Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. 20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected." 21 Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them, 22 and they did not know the secret purposes of God, nor hope for the wages of holiness, nor discern the prize for blameless souls; 23 for God created man for incorruption, and made him in the image of his own eternity, 24 but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his party experience it. WELL? — Steve "You there, with the mitre! To you I address myself…" St Anthony of Padua, Hammer of Heretics, pray for us. *Email address spamtected: "bellsouth.net"

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I was wondering if the people on the newsgroup would agree with this quote ‘Everything in the Bible is inspired, but not everything that is inspired is in the Bible’

I certainly would.

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‘Everything in the Bible is inspired, but not everything that is inspired is in the Bible’ Of course! The Bible itself says that. Everything written in the Bible is inspired, but not everything in the RC bible is inspired.

Well that’s true. Have you seen some of the music that Catholic Music Publishers have written lately. Some of it is definitely uninspiring. <G However, many things were not included in the Canon of scripture not because they were not inspired but because there were other criteria which was used for the scriptures. The writings of the early Church Fathers, for example are not chopped liver. Nor are the Ecumencial Councils, which are considered "inspired by the Holy Spirit." Also, of those inspired writings not in the Bible, by whose authority are they determined to be inspired?

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I was wondering if the people on the newsgroup would agree with this quote ‘Everything in the Bible is inspired, but not everything that is inspired is in the Bible’ Of course! The Bible itself says that.

Everything written in the Bible is inspired, but not everything in the RC bible is inspired. Also, of those inspired writings not in the Bible, by whose authority are they determined to be inspired? There were inspired writings not included in the biblical canon, probably because of repetition. The Holy Spirit directed those whom He chose to include those which best fit the purpose of the written Word. God bless, Jay

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I was wondering if the people on the newsgroup would agree with this quote ‘Everything in the Bible is inspired, but not everything that is inspired is in the Bible’

Of course! The Bible itself says that.

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