Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

Give up the ether sniffing and stop abusing the kid. XXIII You would do well to stop abusing the NG.

Oh, the sweet irony. This from someone who comes into a recovery NG to taunt people who have suffered abuse. What a true Xian you are Ed, not to mention an evil hypocrite. Why do you make such an ass of yourself in here. I can see you doing that in alt.atheism and perhaps ARC. You sound like your do more than sniff the glue.

When you’re around the only thing people sniff is shit. Try bathing sometime. XXIII MORAL CRUSADE: Public activity undertaken by middle-aged men who are cheating on their wives or diddling little boys. Moral crusades are particularly popular among those who are seeking power for their own personal pleasure, politicians who can’t think of anything useful to do with their mandates and religious professionals suffering from a personal inability to communicate with their god. In military terms, a diversionary tactic. John Ralston Saul  -  THE DOUBTER’S COMPANION

Response:

I’m not going to lose any sleep over this, but I must reply to the tyraid of two of the three first replies. (SNIP) First, I don’t exactly know what you mean that I’m a "Troll".  I’m a Roman Catholic like you, except that I probably don’t walk around with a Bible in my hands and condemn everyone and everything this is not to your liking.  I didn’t know there was a Bible Thumping clause to alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic…

(SNIP) Marcus, the term TROLL is not meant as the same as the creature living under a bridge but rather as to troll for fish from a boat. When most of the users refer to a troll or a trolling they simply mean that the person is not really interested in the group discussion but rather just to stir up trouble or post something that has really nothing to do with the group. I too wonder why it is at times there seems to be more folks who use this or any other forum as a way to vent their frustrations on the world and point fingers but such is the freedom of the net. I hope this helps. Peace be with you, Rusty Elf1564

Response:

We were in and out in less than 45 minutes!

Didn’t really know there was a minimum time for worship. One Newman Center at a La. university had an under 20 minute liturgy at noon, complete with a 7-minute homily. Great preacher, lousy liturgist. Although the delivery was shaky, STILL, I heard the Word and received the Sacrament.

Response:

Yeah, but is he good?  Rev. Hawkes can give the dreaded "tithing" sermon and have me hanging on every word!  A long sermon does not necessarily mean a boring one, if the preacher is able to have the congregation walking out inspired and resolved to a new Christian way of life. Actually, he is good.  He’s just long-winded, and says more than most people can absorb on a Sunday morning.  If you’re distracted and shifting in your seat and sneaking a peek at your watch, it’s gone on for too long.  Of course, I guess some people do that at about the two-minute mark, but I think the ideal homily is eight minutes.

I think it can go on as long as needed, provided the preacher has the know-how to keep his or her audience hooked.  Most priests don’t.  As I’ve said, I’ve been dying at 10 minutes (a sister preaching on Sunday last) and I’ve been spellbound and ready to leap out of the pews yelling Alleluia! at 45. There’s another thing he does that makes me uncomfortable.  There’s a Deacon (actually, two) at his church.  On Sundays when the Deacon preaches the homily, this priest has been known to get up and expand upon what the Deacon has just said.  This seems rude to me, and is infringing upon the Deacon’s homiletic prerogatives.  If the Deacon wanted to "say that," he would have "said that."

That’s very rude, I agree.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   We were in and out in less than 45 minutes! Yup, this is a troll.  There is no "This Side Up" on hosts, and a music-less mass can take 45 minutes certainly.  A "rushed" mass would take less than that.  Heck, the pre-Vatican II Tridentine mass took 30 minutes although the post-Vatican II Tridentine mass is longer. A REAL Catholic would know that.  An imposter wouldn’t. In Fort Wayne they have a Campus Minestry Youth mass. We sing just about everything and the homily is usually about 4-5 minutes long sometimes for certain topics it last 10 minutes. Yet mass averages 35-40 minutes and longest we have had it 50 minutes. The protestents only take 20 – 30 minutes

The Prots win then. XXIII MORAL CRUSADE: Public activity undertaken by middle-aged men who are cheating on their wives or diddling little boys. Moral crusades are particularly popular among those who are seeking power for their own personal pleasure, politicians who can’t think of anything useful to do with their mandates and religious professionals suffering from a personal inability to communicate with their god. In military terms, a diversionary tactic. John Ralston Saul  -  THE DOUBTER’S COMPANION

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ooh, depends on the Protestants!  Whenever I’ve been to a Presbyterian service, the minister has PREACHED for 30 minutes!  Sometimes longer! We have a priest here in Memphis who is known for his lengthy homilies. He also often gives another 8-10 minute homily (some of us call it "Son of Homily") at the end of Mass before the dismissal.  I actually timed him one Sunday, and he actually preached for 45 (forty-five) minutes.  I assure you that I am not exaggerating.  I have great affection and regard for him, but he sure can talk. By the way, he’s a convert. Yeah, but is he good?  Rev. Hawkes can give the dreaded "tithing" sermon and have me hanging on every word!  A long sermon does not necessarily mean a boring one, if the preacher is able to have the congregation walking out inspired and resolved to a new Christian way of life.

Actually, he is good.  He’s just long-winded, and says more than most people can absorb on a Sunday morning.  If you’re distracted and shifting in your seat and sneaking a peek at your watch, it’s gone on for too long.  Of course, I guess some people do that at about the two-minute mark, but I think the ideal homily is eight minutes. There’s another thing he does that makes me uncomfortable.  There’s a Deacon (actually, two) at his church.  On Sundays when the Deacon preaches the homily, this priest has been known to get up and expand upon what the Deacon has just said.  This seems rude to me, and is infringing upon the Deacon’s homiletic prerogatives.  If the Deacon wanted to "say that," he would have "said that." Don’t get me wrong — I hold him in high regard.  I just think he talks too long. — Charles W. ("Bill") Nourse, Ed.D., CPP Memphis, Tennessee  USA http://personal.mem.bellsouth.net/~nourse "Establish yourself in God and then you will be helpful to others."         — St. Seraphim of Sarov

Response:

Ooh, depends on the Protestants!  Whenever I’ve been to a Presbyterian service, the minister has PREACHED for 30 minutes!  Sometimes longer! We have a priest here in Memphis who is known for his lengthy homilies. He also often gives another 8-10 minute homily (some of us call it "Son of Homily") at the end of Mass before the dismissal.  I actually timed him one Sunday, and he actually preached for 45 (forty-five) minutes.  I assure you that I am not exaggerating.  I have great affection and regard for him, but he sure can talk. By the way, he’s a convert.

Yeah, but is he good?  Rev. Hawkes can give the dreaded "tithing" sermon and have me hanging on every word!  A long sermon does not necessarily mean a boring one, if the preacher is able to have the congregation walking out inspired and resolved to a new Christian way of life.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Communion came, I noticed that the host was placed (rather rushed) onto my tongue, but I could feel that it was upside down.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the host supposed to be cross up?  Not only that, but with my tongue it felt that there was something other than a cross on the host. It may have been a rose that I have seen at another parish that we no longer attend.  We were in and out in less than 45 minutes! Yup, this is a troll.  There is no "This Side Up" on hosts, and a music-less mass can take 45 minutes certainly.  A "rushed" mass would take less than that. Heck, the pre-Vatican II Tridentine mass took 30 minutes although the post-Vatican II Tridentine mass is longer. A REAL Catholic would know that.  An imposter wouldn’t. But, but, HE wasn’t there. LOL! XXIII

But but, you don’t seem all there.  Why are you here ?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   We were in and out in less than 45 minutes! Yup, this is a troll.  There is no "This Side Up" on hosts, and a music-less mass can take 45 minutes certainly.  A "rushed" mass would take less than that.  Heck, the pre-Vatican II Tridentine mass took 30 minutes although the post-Vatican II Tridentine mass is longer. A REAL Catholic would know that.  An imposter wouldn’t. In Fort Wayne they have a Campus Minestry Youth mass. We sing just about everything and the homily is usually about 4-5 minutes long sometimes for certain topics it last 10 minutes. Yet mass averages 35-40 minutes and longest we have had it 50 minutes. The protestents only take 20 – 30 minutes

Ooh, depends on the Protestants!  Whenever I’ve been to a Presbyterian service, the minister has PREACHED for 30 minutes!  Sometimes longer!

Response:

, Marcus MacFarlane Something disturbing happened at Church a couple weeks ago… We missed Mass at our local parish and at our favored parish.  We decided that we would attend a late Mass at St Columba in Chester, NY at 6pm.  We arrived exactly at 6pm.  First, it seemed to me that we must have had the time wrong and the Mass started at 5:30pm.  Second, after about ten minutes, I started to feel uneasy about this parish – It didn’t feel right.

Chester NY is an evil place. I got a ticket there on Rt 17 and had to go back twice from Stamford, CT. I hate that place. BAM

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Something disturbing happened at Church a couple weeks ago… We missed Mass at our local parish and at our favored parish.  We decided that we would attend a late Mass at St Columba in Chester, NY at 6pm.  We arrived exactly at 6pm.  First, it seemed to me that we must have had the time wrong and the Mass started at 5:30pm.  Second, after about ten minutes, I started to feel uneasy about this parish – It didn’t feel right. Shortly thereafter, my three year old (who was half asleep when we came in) started gradually getting loud saying the same thing over and over several times. It took me thirty seconds to make it out, but he was saying "He’s not Here!"*  (By this time he was standing on the pew as if staring over the alter at the Cross.) My eyes widened when I realized what he was saying, and looked around suddenly feeling the same.  I picked him up to quiet and calm him, and he layed his head on my shoulder now whispering.  I acknowledged that I understood him by whispering back "I think you’re right son." and he went quiet.  The pastor seemed to be going a mile-a-minute as if he was the Madhatter – late for an important date. Communion came, I noticed that the host was placed (rather rushed) onto my tongue, but I could feel that it was upside down.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the host supposed to be cross up?  Not only that, but with my tongue it felt that there was something other than a cross on the host. It may have been a rose that I have seen at another parish that we no longer attend.  We were in and out in less than 45 minutes! We left the church after mass, my Wife too was uneasy. We both agreed that we would never attend Mass at this Church again.  She then stated that they SKIPPED the Homily.  That’s why I felt we walked in too late! Out of the mouths of babes, I’ll have to agree with my son – HE wasn’t there. Give up the ether sniffing and stop abusing the kid. XXIII

You would do well to stop abusing the NG. Why do you make such an ass of yourself in here. I can see you doing that in alt.atheism and perhaps ARC. You sound like your do more than sniff the glue.

Response:

, Marcus MacFarlane Something disturbing happened at Church a couple weeks ago… We missed Mass at our local parish and at our favored parish.  We decided that we would attend a late Mass at St Columba in Chester, NY at 6pm.  We arrived exactly at 6pm.  First, it seemed to me that we must have had the time wrong and the Mass started at 5:30pm.  Second, after about ten minutes, I started to feel uneasy about this parish – It didn’t feel right. Chester NY is an evil place. I got a ticket there on Rt 17 and had to go back twice from Stamford, CT. I hate that place.

I think there is a theological significance in that you had to go back twice from STAMFORD, CT, home of the WWF!  (You wouldn’t happen to be a wrestler, would you?)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   We were in and out in less than 45 minutes! Yup, this is a troll.  There is no "This Side Up" on hosts, and a music-less mass can take 45 minutes certainly.  A "rushed" mass would take less than that.  Heck, the pre-Vatican II Tridentine mass took 30 minutes although the post-Vatican II Tridentine mass is longer. A REAL Catholic would know that.  An imposter wouldn’t. In Fort Wayne they have a Campus Minestry Youth mass. We sing just about everything and the homily is usually about 4-5 minutes long sometimes for certain topics it last 10 minutes. Yet mass averages 35-40 minutes and longest we have had it 50 minutes. The protestents only take 20 – 30 minutes Ooh, depends on the Protestants!  Whenever I’ve been to a Presbyterian service, the minister has PREACHED for 30 minutes!  Sometimes longer!

We have a priest here in Memphis who is known for his lengthy homilies. He also often gives another 8-10 minute homily (some of us call it "Son of Homily") at the end of Mass before the dismissal.  I actually timed him one Sunday, and he actually preached for 45 (forty-five) minutes.  I assure you that I am not exaggerating.  I have great affection and regard for him, but he sure can talk. By the way, he’s a convert. — Charles W. ("Bill") Nourse, Ed.D., CPP Memphis, Tennessee  USA http://personal.mem.bellsouth.net/~nourse "Establish yourself in God and then you will be helpful to others."         — St. Seraphim of Sarov

Response:

  We were in and out in less than 45 minutes! Yup, this is a troll.  There is no "This Side Up" on hosts, and a music-less mass can take 45 minutes certainly.  A "rushed" mass would take less than that.  Heck, the pre-Vatican II Tridentine mass took 30 minutes although the post-Vatican II Tridentine mass is longer. A REAL Catholic would know that.  An imposter wouldn’t.

In Fort Wayne they have a Campus Minestry Youth mass. We sing just about everything and the homily is usually about 4-5 minutes long sometimes for certain topics it last 10 minutes. Yet mass averages 35-40 minutes and longest we have had it 50 minutes. The protestents only take 20 – 30 minutes

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Something disturbing happened at Church a couple weeks ago… We missed Mass at our local parish and at our favored parish.  We decided that we would attend a late Mass at St Columba in Chester, NY at 6pm.  We arrived exactly at 6pm.  First, it seemed to me that we must have had the time wrong and the Mass started at 5:30pm.  Second, after about ten minutes, I started to feel uneasy about this parish – It didn’t feel right. Shortly thereafter, my three year old (who was half asleep when we came in) started gradually getting loud saying the same thing over and over several times.      It took me thirty seconds to make it out, but he was saying "He’s not Here!"*  (By this time he was standing on the pew as if staring over the alter at the Cross.) My eyes widened when I realized what he was saying, and looked around suddenly feeling the same.  I picked him up to quiet and calm him, and he layed his head on my shoulder now whispering.  I acknowledged that I understood him by whispering back "I think you’re right son." and he went quiet.  The pastor seemed to be going a mile-a-minute as if he was the Madhatter – late for an important date. Communion came, I noticed that the host was placed (rather rushed) onto my tongue, but I could feel that it was upside down.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the host supposed to be cross up?  Not only that, but with my tongue it felt that there was something other than a cross on the host.  It may have been a rose that I have seen at another parish that we no longer attend.  We were in and out in less than 45 minutes! We left the church after mass, my Wife too was uneasy.      We both agreed that we would never attend Mass at this Church again.  She then stated that they SKIPPED the Homily.  That’s why I felt we walked in too late! Out of the mouths of babes, I’ll have to agree with my son – HE wasn’t there.

Give up the ether sniffing and stop abusing the kid. XXIII MORAL CRUSADE: Public activity undertaken by middle-aged men who are cheating on their wives or diddling little boys. Moral crusades are particularly popular among those who are seeking power for their own personal pleasure, politicians who can’t think of anything useful to do with their mandates and religious professionals suffering from a personal inability to communicate with their god. In military terms, a diversionary tactic. John Ralston Saul  -  THE DOUBTER’S COMPANION

Response:

Something disturbing happened at Church a couple weeks ago… We missed Mass at our local parish and at our favored parish.  We decided

You missed the saced MASS? you will be damned for hell. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -that we would attend a late Mass at St Columba in Chester, NY at 6pm.  We arrived exactly at 6pm.  First, it seemed to me that we must have had the time wrong and the Mass started at 5:30pm.  Second, after about ten minutes, I started to feel uneasy about this parish – It didn’t feel right. Shortly thereafter, my three year old (who was half asleep when we came in) started gradually getting loud saying the same thing over and over several times.      It took me thirty seconds to make it out, but he was saying "He’s not Here!"*  (By this time he was standing on the pew as if staring over the alter at the Cross.) My eyes widened when I realized what he was saying, and looked around suddenly feeling the same.  I picked him up to quiet and calm him, and he layed his head on my shoulder now whispering.  I acknowledged that I understood him by whispering back "I think you’re right son." and he went quiet.  The pastor seemed to be going a mile-a-minute as if he was the Madhatter – late for an important date. Communion came, I noticed that the host was placed (rather rushed) onto my tongue, but I could feel that it was upside down.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the host supposed to be cross up?  Not only that, but with my tongue it felt that there was something other than a cross on the host.  It may have been a rose that I have seen at another parish that we no longer attend.  We were in and out in less than 45 minutes! We left the church after mass, my Wife too was uneasy.      We both agreed that we would never attend Mass at this Church again.  She then stated that they SKIPPED the Homily.  That’s why I felt we walked in too late! Out of the mouths of babes, I’ll have to agree with my son – HE wasn’t there. — Marcus MacFarlane     * He’s a typical three year old who will misbehave in       Church from time to time, but he has NEVER done this       or said this in any Church we have ever attended.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Communion came, I noticed that the host was placed (rather rushed) onto my tongue, but I could feel that it was upside down.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the host supposed to be cross up?  Not only that, but with my tongue it felt that there was something other than a cross on the host.  It may have been a rose that I have seen at another parish that we no longer attend.  We were in and out in less than 45 minutes! Yup, this is a troll.  There is no "This Side Up" on hosts, and a music-less mass can take 45 minutes certainly.  A "rushed" mass would take less than that.  Heck, the pre-Vatican II Tridentine mass took 30 minutes although the post-Vatican II Tridentine mass is longer. A REAL Catholic would know that.  An imposter wouldn’t.

But, but, HE wasn’t there. LOL! XXIII MORAL CRUSADE: Public activity undertaken by middle-aged men who are cheating on their wives or diddling little boys. Moral crusades are particularly popular among those who are seeking power for their own personal pleasure, politicians who can’t think of anything useful to do with their mandates and religious professionals suffering from a personal inability to communicate with their god. In military terms, a diversionary tactic. John Ralston Saul  -  THE DOUBTER’S COMPANION

Response:

Now am I still a Troll, Folks?      Remember we’re just Human, and all have weaknesses.  I’m not perfect and neither are you, so don’t Judge me.  You know nothing about me.      Just because I don’t have my Dewey-Rheims Bible and Vatican Brevery (sp?) committed to memory doesn’t make me a bad person or any less a Roman Catholic. Like you, I’ll find out the tally when judgement finally comes.

What we meant by calling you a "troll" is that we suspected you of pretending to be a Catholic in order to make fun of our faith. We have quite a few trolls, as you’ll soon notice, who make rediculous posts about the faith in order to disparage it. Sorry about the misunderstanding, but we’ve become a little too jaded for our own good. Dane

Response:

Fun troll.  Have you ever considered Sci-Fi writing as a hobby? Karen

Response:

<<Communion came, I noticed that the host was placed (rather rushed) onto my tongue, but I could feel that it was upside down.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the host supposed to be cross up? No <<Not only that, but with my tongue it felt that there was something other than a cross on the host.  It may have been a rose that I have seen at another parish that we no longer attend.  We were in and out in less than 45 minutes! A rose and a cross?  You have some pseudoCatholic Rosicrucians in your area? How weird…. Is the parish listed in the diocesan directory?  There are some rump parishes around, out of communion with the church.  If it’s on the list, I think you can quit worrying — they may be sloppy but they’re legit. Deo Gratias John

Response:

Communion came, I noticed that the host was placed (rather rushed) onto my tongue, but I could feel that it was upside down.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the host supposed to be cross up?  Not only that, but with my tongue it felt that there was something other than a cross on the host.  It may have been a rose that I have seen at another parish that we no longer attend.  We were in and out in less than 45 minutes!

Yup, this is a troll.  There is no "This Side Up" on hosts, and a music-less mass can take 45 minutes certainly.  A "rushed" mass would take less than that.  Heck, the pre-Vatican II Tridentine mass took 30 minutes although the post-Vatican II Tridentine mass is longer. A REAL Catholic would know that.  An imposter wouldn’t.

Response:

I’m not going to lose any sleep over this, but I must reply to the tyraid of two of the three first replies. The happenings of what I said are true.  One was so nice as to point out the Rosacrucian Rose and that the side does not matter.  Thank you. First, I don’t exactly know what you mean that I’m a "Troll".  I’m a Roman Catholic like you, except that I probably don’t walk around with a Bible in my hands and condemn everyone and everything this is not to your liking.  I didn’t know there was a Bible Thumping clause to alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic… I thought the interest of this NG was in things Roman Catholic.  Or, do you just attend the Church in question and got offended by my opinion of it?  I think you also violated one of the roots of Roman Catholicism – Judging Others… Violates several passages and a Commandment. Sorry, as I said, I don’t carry my Bible so I can’t quote Chapter and Verse. Second, when you attend Mass of a particular variety at a Parish, particularly the "long-winded" ones, you tend to expect most masses to be about an hour even with light singing.  I tend to judge Masses on what I like and accustomed to which tend to be the longer Masses in less modern churches. Third, I’ve been to a Tridentine Mass (BTW thanks for the spelling), but it was at a little church over an hour-and-a-half away.  The experience of the Latin Mass is tremendous, and I expressed an interest to our regular parish to offer a regular Tridentine Mass, but since they can only be said upon approval of the Vatican and the Archdioceses of New York, it may be a while. One of the priests at the Parish has a Masters in Medieval Church History and Doctrine and knows well the Tridentine Mass.  He’s spearheading the effort to offer the Mass in the Church Chapel where there is perpetual adoration of the Euchurist until attendence outgrows the Chapel and the Main Cathedral requires use. Forth, since my posting I spoke with my Wife about it, and she corrected me on something… Not only did they skip the Homily at St Columba, they skipped right over the GOSPEL.  We walked in during the middle of the readings, and he was speaking a mile a minute. And, we were there only 30 minutes. – My Mother-In-Law, a bigger Bible Thumper than most of you put together, and could teach you a thing or two that would make you look like a Troll.  She sent Nine Children to Catholic School and has more Relics than most Churches.  By faith and example, she has shown me that "God will provide." – Me, at one time, I may have agreed. But, thanks to my Loving Wife and Mother-In-Law, I am on my way to reversing the damage of 10 years away from the Church that they helped me realize I sorely missed.  The reason I walked away at a young age:  Mile-A-Minute Masses that took the Holiness out of the Mass. Now I go to St. Joseph’s of Middletown, NY as much as possible (where they still say the Hail Mary after Mass) even though I live out of the area now; otherwise, I attend another St. Joseph’s at a particular time went the elder priest presides, and he’s not afraid to preach that "The Eucharist is not a Symbol of Christ’s Body… It IS HIS BODY! And, that is why most Catholics fail to realize one of the roots of the Catholicism"  I like Priests that don’t gloss over the finer details. Now am I still a Troll, Folks?  Remember we’re just Human, and all have weaknesses.  I’m not perfect and neither are you, so don’t Judge me.  You know nothing about me.  Just because I don’t have my Dewey-Rheims Bible and Vatican Brevery (sp?) committed to memory doesn’t make me a bad person or any less a Roman Catholic. Like you, I’ll find out the tally when judgement finally comes. Go Ahead And Flame If You Wish… Good day… — Marcus MacFarlane Pray for the Intercedance of the Blessed Mother in the Coming      Tribulations and Final Judgement. Pray for the Protection of St Michael the Archangel. Pray for the Strength of St Maximillian Kolbe, his Knights of the      Immaculata, and a well forged sword in my hand. The Crucifix      is my shield against the evils that come. Pray for the Wisdom to See What’s Ahead, but the blury visions are      scaring me.  Yet I trudge ahead knowing that God has made this      path for me and no matter what happens He will be on the other      side waiting for me. Pray that my Sacrifices are acceptable and not in Vein so that my      children may have a future. Pray for Mercy on Us All.

Response:

Yup, this is a troll.  There is no "This Side Up" on hosts, and a music-less mass can take 45 minutes certainly.  A "rushed" mass would take less than that.  Heck, the pre-Vatican II Tridentine mass took 30 minutes although the post-Vatican II Tridentine mass is longer. A REAL Catholic would know that.  An imposter wouldn’t.

Interestingly, St. Alphonsus De Ligouri advised priests that Mass should take at 15 min. or it would probably be disrespectful. Our view of "rushed" has changed a bit, wouldn’t you say? Dane

Response:

Something disturbing happened at Church a couple weeks ago… We missed Mass at our local parish and at our favored parish.  We decided that we would attend a late Mass at St Columba in Chester, NY at 6pm.  We arrived exactly at 6pm.  First, it seemed to me that we must have had the time wrong and the Mass started at 5:30pm.  Second, after about ten minutes, I started to feel uneasy about this parish – It didn’t feel right. Shortly thereafter, my three year old (who was half asleep when we came in) started gradually getting loud saying the same thing over and over several times.  It took me thirty seconds to make it out, but he was saying "He’s not Here!"*  (By this time he was standing on the pew as if staring over the alter at the Cross.) My eyes widened when I realized what he was saying, and looked around suddenly feeling the same.  I picked him up to quiet and calm him, and he layed his head on my shoulder now whispering.  I acknowledged that I understood him by whispering back "I think you’re right son." and he went quiet.  The pastor seemed to be going a mile-a-minute as if he was the Madhatter – late for an important date. Communion came, I noticed that the host was placed (rather rushed) onto my tongue, but I could feel that it was upside down.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the host supposed to be cross up?  Not only that, but with my tongue it felt that there was something other than a cross on the host.  It may have been a rose that I have seen at another parish that we no longer attend.  We were in and out in less than 45 minutes! We left the church after mass, my Wife too was uneasy.  We both agreed that we would never attend Mass at this Church again.  She then stated that they SKIPPED the Homily.  That’s why I felt we walked in too late! Out of the mouths of babes, I’ll have to agree with my son – HE wasn’t there. — Marcus MacFarlane      * He’s a typical three year old who will misbehave in        Church from time to time, but he has NEVER done this        or said this in any Church we have ever attended.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I, a Roman Catholic organist, heartily agree.  As for the praise song that sounds like the Brady Bunch theme excerpt, I believe that would be Dan Schutte’s "Here I Am, Lord".  It’s strange that the song was copyrighted in 1981 and it wasn’t until 1991 that I noticed the similarity.  It first came up while reading Thomas Day’s book, titled "Why Catholics Can’t Sing".  If you haven’t read the book, it’s a MUST READ for all liturgical musicians, and those into liturgical music.  Mr. Day is blunt, and right to the point in all his chapters.  At one church where I was organist, I suggested this book to a couple of young seminarians as "required reading" for all who want to celebrate the liturgy. Contemporary liturgical music is not what it was meant to be…at least I don’t think.  Since the advent of the folk Mass, its meaning has been scarred.  As for the "grunge Mass", I would leave that in a heartbeat.  Same goes for a "rap Mass" if it ever came to that.

Yes, but what about a polka mass? (For the blissfully ignorant, polka masses do exist.  In fact, there is a Roman priest that travels around holding these masses.) And now, on another subject… A fine example of contemporary is that of the late Alexander Peloquin (1918- 1997).  He was music director of our Cathedral for over 40 years, wrote many pieces for both choirs and congregations.  Much of it was published by GIA, which gave permissions for some of the pieces and arrangements (like those of Richard Proulx) to your Hymnal 1982.  It’s a shame they overlooked Peloquin. Check it out.  He wrote with a Bernstein/Gershwin influence.  But, I must say that your denomination has a standard hymnal that is far superior than what most of the RC publishers have put out.  Our best is WORSHIP (by GIA, 1986).

There might have been some preference given to Proulx because of his background. He has been in the employ of an St. Thomas Episcopal Church, Medina, Washington. Around Seattle, Medina is best known for being the home ZIP code for Bill Gates. On a CD I have of Proulx’s music, you can hear the "Seattle" influence:  a Psalm setting written for St. Mark’s Compline Choir. Also, Proulx has kept close contact with the Episcopal musical cabal.  From 1985 I remember a personal description James Litton gave to a workshop in South Dakota of Proulx’s adaptation of Franz Peter Schubert’s *Songs of the Holy Offering of the Mass* (commonly known as the Deutsche Messe), most of which has found its way into the *Hymnal 1982* (which actually was published in 1985; General Convention approved the hymn texts in 1982). This just might explain why Proulx over Alexander Peloquin. Venite exultemus. Bob Chapman — Robert R. Chapman, Jr.

Response:

i belong to a n episopal church that incorparates praise/contemporary music in our church services on a regular bases .  the response has been positive !!!!!!  singing in church is worship……people want to music encourages group participation and allows for an emotional response to the  presence of god

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There might have been some preference given to Proulx because of his background. He has been in the employ of an St. Thomas Episcopal Church, Medina, Washington. Around Seattle, Medina is best known for being the home ZIP code for Bill Gates. On a CD I have of Proulx’s music, you can hear the "Seattle" influence:  a Psalm setting written for St. Mark’s Compline Choir. Also, Proulx has kept close contact with the Episcopal musical cabal.  From 1985 I remember a personal description James Litton gave to a workshop in South Dakota of Proulx’s adaptation of Franz Peter Schubert’s *Songs of the Holy Offering of the Mass* (commonly known as the Deutsche Messe), most of which has found its way into the *Hymnal 1982* (which actually was published in 1985; General Convention approved the hymn texts in 1982). This just might explain why Proulx over Alexander Peloquin. Venite exultemus. Bob Chapman — Robert R. Chapman, Jr.

It does, big time, since Peloquin’s roots were strictly Catholic.  But, please don’t get me wrong.  Proulx is a superior composer, compared to the flotsum and jetsum that floats into the OCP books chronically. BMP — Cheers, Brian

Response:

You have missed a major point here.  First, let us look at what you said. Then, I will (modestly, I hope) suggest some rewording that fits in with other people’s experiences.

[quote] i belong to a n episopal church that incorparates praise/contemporary music in our church services on a regular bases .  the response has been positive !!!!!!  singing in church is worship……people want to music encourages group participation and allows for an emotional response to the  presence of god

[unquote] Now here is a suggested rewording of your statement, taking into account what others have said previously (I hope formatting does not make this confusing): [modified statement] I belong to an Episopal Church that incorparates praise and so-called contemporary music in our church services on a regular basis. The response has been positive! Singing in church is worship. *Some* people want and need active, physical participation, whereas others need to worship in a more contemplative manner. Praise music encourages active participation.  Both active and contemplative methods allow for an emotional response to the  presence of God.

[end modified statement] Not every person responds the same way to the same situation. Also, "a response to the presence of God" can take many forms.  Having an experience of being strangely warmed does not require loud music.  A still, small voice works very well, thank you. In fact, don’t count on responding to praise music 10 years from now as you do today.   I am not saying you will dislike it, but "familiarity breeds contempt."  You talked about making an emotional response:  no one responds the same way to the same, continuous stimuli over a long period of time. Again, I am not saying you will "hate" it later–only your response will be different. These words are coming from a person that was singing from *Songs of Praise* Vol. 1 from Word of God in Ann Arbor, Michigan, when it was *Songs of Praise* from Charismatic Renewal Services in Ann Arbor.  I went through a Roman "Life in the Spirit Seminar" (I was a Saturday night organist at St. Patrick’s, Rolla, Missouri) lead by an "interesting" group of clericals and monastics from St. Louis (including Fr. Francis McNutt).  My evangelical-charismatic credentials are "solid" enough; what I have is an appreciation that we all aren’t wired alike.  I also know that what was once "contemporary" is now 20-30 years old. What bothers me more in this thread is that no one, myself included, has mentioned the Episcopal supplemental hymnal *Lift Every Voice and Sing* Vol. 2.  It is a well-researched and assembled collection of gospel (both African American and European American origins, in spite of a name that implies African-only) and praise music.  Personally, I have a great love of the hymn "Wade in the Water," found in this collection. Venite exultemus, Bob — Robert R. Chapman, Jr. Lynnwood, Washington USA

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You bring up an appropriate point:  what is "contemporary worship"? Or to be even more pointed, how contemporary does it have to be? One could, after all, complain about the fact that most "praise songs" (aka Vat. II RC stuff) sound the twenty-odd years old that they are. A LOT of them sound like Barry Manilow arrangements. Jazz (depending upon its denomination) goes back another twenty, at least. 12 tone and its serialist relatives are now running about eighty years old (and show no signs whatsoever of any popular appeal– can we quit yet?). Then we get to protestant end of things. In the average parish, one hopes that the congregation sings at least three hymns, and the service music if it is sung at all. (There is a local parish where the choir sings a different service every week, but clearly this is a special case.) The choir gets an anthem, maybe some communion music, and the occaisional introit, plus special stuff for C&E. Contemporary choir music is one thing (although if I never have to sing another Mad Lutheran anthem anthem, I will not be unhappy); but one really must expect the congregational stuff to singable and to be rewarding to sing. I think that lets out Philip Glass, for the most part, or any other ‘academic’ modern music. We’ve used some Taize stuff; it works well as communion music, and it doesn’t sound goofy on the organ. The main problem is that the vast bulk of it is in Latin. Some of John Michael Talbot’s stuff might work in the same context. Ironically, some of the best new stuff in the hymnal is quite old: all the shape note music. There is a LOT of stuff to be mined here, and the colonial material is great for choirs. I find it unfortunate that the term "contemporary" has been hijacked by some to mean "guitars" and "folk music," as if all contemporary music is in 3/4 time in D major. The explanation for this is quite simple. This stuff started out in the RC church during that idiot period where everything had to be as unlike the tridentine mass as possible. The "folk mass" was the model to follow, although, ironically, the 1940 and 1982 Episcopal hymnals both have lots of genuine folk material. As far as this "grunge mass" is concerned… Today, grunge is *not* contemporary.  It is not what the 20-something clubs in Seattle are playing. This is, I think, where the whole idea of "contemporary" goes down in flames. Except in certain very specialized contexts, nothing is contemporary to everyone. (You can count me out on Curt Cobain, if only because I’ve tended to gravitate towards the Renaissance in the past decade.) Preparing a special service is one thing, and you can do all kinds of stuff that you simply cannot do on Sunday morning. At the main Sunday eucharist you have an obligation to accomodate the visitor off the street. The other danger of "contemporary" music is unintentional humor. How many of you can tell me which praise song contains an excerpt from the Brady Bunch theme song? And then there’s "Majesty", which makes "How Great Thou Art" sound like Bach. Real contemporary sounding there. There are also us hardheads who insist on singing correct grammar on "As the Deer" ("Thou alone art my strength, my sheild; to Thee alone may my spirit yield"). C. "I bind unto myself today" Wingate

I, a Roman Catholic organist, heartily agree.  As for the praise song that sounds like the Brady Bunch theme excerpt, I believe that would be Dan Schutte’s "Here I Am, Lord".  It’s strange that the song was copyrighted in 1981 and it wasn’t until 1991 that I noticed the similarity.  It first came up while reading Thomas Day’s book, titled "Why Catholics Can’t Sing".        If you haven’t read the book, it’s a MUST READ for all liturgical musicians, and those into liturgical music.  Mr. Day is blunt, and right to the point in all his chapters.  At one church where I was organist, I suggested this book to a couple of young seminarians as "required reading" for all who want to celebrate the liturgy. Contemporary liturgical music is not what it was meant to be…at least I don’t think.  Since the advent of the folk Mass, its meaning has been scarred.  As for the "grunge Mass", I would leave that in a heartbeat.        Same goes for a "rap Mass" if it ever came to that. A fine example of contemporary is that of the late Alexander Peloquin (1918- 1997).  He was music director of our Cathedral for over 40 years, wrote many pieces for both choirs and congregations.  Much of it was published by GIA, which gave permissions for some of the pieces and arrangements (like those of Richard Proulx) to your Hymnal 1982.  It’s a shame they overlooked Peloquin. Check it out.  He wrote with a Bernstein/Gershwin influence.  But, I must say that your denomination has a standard hymnal that is far superior than what most of the RC publishers have put out.  Our best is WORSHIP (by GIA, 1986). — Cheers, Brian

Response:

You bring up an appropriate point:  what is "contemporary worship"? Or to be even more pointed, how contemporary does it have to be? One could, after all, complain about the fact that most "praise songs" (aka Vat. II RC stuff) sound the twenty-odd years old that they are. A LOT of them sound like Barry Manilow arrangements. Jazz (depending upon its denomination) goes back another twenty, at least. 12 tone and its serialist relatives are now running about eighty years old (and show no signs whatsoever of any popular appeal– can we quit yet?).

Hey, there is a Samuel Barber piano concerto that has 12-tone rows buried in it at specific places.  Typically, in the good "serious" music being composed today you will find elements of various genre, including 12-tone. Stravinksy tended not to follow the rules exacatly, anyway.  What we don’t seem to hear any more are new pure 12-tone rows (forward, backwards, upside down, inside out, through and through, and ad nausaum). (I assumed by "popular appeal" you were not making reference to "popular music.") Then we get to protestant end of things. In the average parish, one hopes that the congregation sings at least three hymns, and the service music if it is sung at all. (There is a local parish where the choir sings a different service every week, but clearly this is a special case.) The choir gets an anthem, maybe some communion music, and the occaisional introit, plus special stuff for C&E. Contemporary choir music is one thing (although if I never have to sing another Mad Lutheran anthem anthem, I will not be unhappy); but one really must expect the congregational stuff to singable and to be rewarding to sing. I think that lets out Philip Glass, for the most part, or any other ‘academic’ modern music.

Actually, the thing I like about the Glass organ CD I have is its Orthodox chant-like quality in terms of repetition.  (Having been "permitted" to stay through an entire Old Calendar Russian Orthodox Pascha–why would the priest kick out the only person that could read the chant music besides him, which included the cantor–I can say I know a VERY little bit about Orthodox liturgical repetition.)  The more I listen to the works, the more I get out of them; my ears start to pick out the subtle variation in the voices. Still, I will say this is an acquired taste, at least to someone raised on Bach, Brahms, and Beethoven (but maybe not on Orthodox liturgical music). Of course, considering the legnth a Glass work requires before becoming "effective," I would not expect too many small mission congregation choirs taking up the challenge, along with the likes of Hindemith and a few others. I think that is why the US church music canon reads "appropriate to the context." We’ve used some Taize stuff; it works well as communion music, and it doesn’t sound goofy on the organ. The main problem is that the vast bulk of it is in Latin. Some of John Michael Talbot’s stuff might work in the same context.

The Taiz

Question:

Our former rector used to baptize adults with a three-fold pouring: three gallon pitchers of water, that is. Somewhere about we still have the baptismal tank stashed. C. Wingate

Response:

Christ is risen! I have an additional baptism question for those knowledgeable about the EC.  I was baptized into the EC as an infant and then proceeded to have virtually no further contact with religion till I was over 30.  I became a Christian about a year and a half ago, and I must confess that I still have a soft spot for the EC and have been attending the EC where I live. My question is this:  Since I have come to an adult consciousness of my faith, I would like to be baptized as a conscious choice.  Will this be a problem since I already was technically baptized?  Can you do it over again?  Is there any point to doing so? Thanks for any info. JMC99

I would say that the first baptism took quite well.  You are calling yourself a Christian, aren’t you? Instead, I would suggest you pursue path of "reaffirmation of faith."  It would lead to your reaffirmation being made before a bishop.  See the confirmation service in the [US] Book of Common Prayer to see how the process is finished (reaffirmation is done at the same time as confirmations and receptions). The beauty of reaffirmation is that it recognizes that ALL Christians come to new understandings of faith that require marking somehow.  The PECUSA gives us a method to do that. Pascha nostrum. Bob — Robert R. Chapman, Jr. Lynnwood, Washington USA Those who do not think about their own sins make up for it by thinking incessantly about the sins of others.      –C. S. Lewis  (God in the Dock, "Miserable Offenders," p. 124)

Response:

Dear Group: Regarding baptism, the symbolism is certainly much stronger when a person wades into water and gets covered be it by river water or a very large font.  The washing idea and the dying and rising idea certainly get short shrift in the tame, tidy little bit of water that gets poured on the head. I’ve noticed that some RC churches are using walk-in fonts now.  I think this is great.  We are body people and we need to acknowledge that more freely and deeply. By the way, did you see the movie The Last Apostle.  I got a kick out of the Baptism scene in the river.  Boy those people got dunked real good.  But the river looked pretty dirty to me. Vaud

Response:

I have an additional baptism question for those knowledgeable about the EC.  I was baptized into the EC as an infant and then proceeded to have virtually no further contact with religion till I was over 30.  I became a Christian about a year and a half ago, and I must confess that I still have a soft spot for the EC and have been attending the EC where I live. My question is this:  Since I have come to an adult consciousness of my faith, I would like to be baptized as a conscious choice.  Will this be a problem since I already was technically baptized?  Can you do it over again?  Is there any point to doing so? Thanks for any info. JMC99

Response:

I have an additional baptism question for those knowledgeable about the EC.

There are two different rites depending upon your situation. You cannot be rebaptized per se. However, if you were never confirmed, then you could do so now, and this would be the recommended option. The other option is re-affirmation of baptismal vows. It sounds to me that you fit the "confirmation" scenario, though. Talk to your rector. C. Wingate

Response:

Christ is risen! I am wondering if anyone knows if there is a difference between Baptisim when one is dunked in a river such as was done with Jesus, and the way it is done in the Episcopal Church with a Baby being annointed with Holy water??? I understnad some people think that in order to be really Baptised, one has to be dunked in a river???? Is this a question that really has no "Right" answer?? Thanks, Stu

Am I picking up a hint that you already have your mind made up? From the early Church, I would say we have the path to an answer pointed out to us. Who says Jesus was "dunked"?  The way I understand it, the more likely original method would have been for the candidate (Jesus, or the person being baptized) to kneel in shallow water, with the officiant (the person baptizing) lifting handfuls of water over the other person’s head. I would suggest finding a copy of the Didache (or better yet, commentary upon it) to find out more about early church baptism methodology. Running water is better than still water; warm water is better than cold water. When all is said and done, JUST DO IT! Pascha nostrum. Bob PS.  Incidently, the water should poured over the forehead, not "annointed." — Robert R. Chapman, Jr. Lynnwood, Washington USA Those who do not think about their own sins make up for it by thinking incessantly about the sins of others.      –C. S. Lewis  (God in the Dock, "Miserable Offenders," p. 124)

Response:

I am wondering if anyone knows if there is a difference between Baptisim when one is dunked in a river such as was done with Jesus, and the way it is done in the Episcopal Church with a Baby being annointed with Holy water??? I understnad some people think that in order to be really Baptised, one has to be dunked in a river???? Is this a question that really has no "Right" answer??

There is no "right" answer. For example, Southern Baptists are immersionists, while Methodists are sprinklers. The debate over whether Jesus was in fact immersed or simply sprinkled continues to rage between many religious groups. The bottom line is to recognize the baptismal rite as following the example of Christ and outwardly showing an inward transformation of the self. …. Patrick L. Reilly, host of… Ask Mr. Religion, Valpatken, Ltd. P.O. Box 6820 Chandler, AZ 85246-6820 http://www.valpatken.com/RandRs/MrReligion.html

Response:

I am wondering if anyone knows if there is a difference between Baptisim when one is dunked in a river such as was done with Jesus, and the way it is done in the Episcopal Church with a Baby being annointed with Holy water??? I understnad some people think that in order to be really Baptised, one has to be dunked in a river???? Is this a question that really has no "Right" answer?

Gidday Stu, Well, according to the Anglican church, yes, there is a"right" answer, but it’s not a question of "how much water" or "where the water is applied", rather, that the water is an outward and visible sign of something that is inward, and spiritual. Consequently, current practice has varied a lot over the years. Total immersion may be OK for adults in Northern Europe, but is an unnecessary imposition on infants. Of course, here in sunny Australia where the sun always shines, we can have it both ways. The Roman Catholic Cathedral in our State capital (St. Stephen’s, Brisbane) has a beautiful Baptistry with flowing water, which arises in a small marble font (just the right height for the anointing of an infant in arms) but flows into a large tank with steps leading down into it for the immersion of those able to walk. Having finished its function, the water then flows along a channel beneath a glass wall and becomes a decorative feature. Lesleym.

Response:

There is a standard anglican "what is required" answer. The formula "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" or its equivalent must be used, there must be water applied, and the minister must have been baptized. I once ended up talking on the phone to Bishop Haines concerning the validity of Mormon baptisms. After a bit of beating around the bush, it was suggested that in this instance a conditional baptism ("If you are not already baptized, I baptize…") might be used. This has since been dealt with formally, as in the last several years someone was elected bishop whose only baptism was as a Mormon. It was eventually decided to accept the Mormon baptism, even though they are not even remotely orthodox. C. Wingate

Response:

I am wondering if anyone knows if there is a difference between Baptisim when one is dunked in a river such as was done with Jesus, and the way it is done in the Episcopal Church with a Baby being annointed with Holy water??? I understnad some people think that in order to be really Baptised, one has to be dunked in a river???? Is this a question that really has no "Right" answer?? Thanks, Stu

Response:

is a difference between Baptisim
when one is dunked in a river such as was done with Jesus, and the way it is
done in the Episcopal Church with a Baby being annointed with Holy water???
I understnad some people think that in order to be really Baptised, one has
to be dunked in a river????
Is this a question that really has no "Right" answer??
Thanks,
Stu
Hmmm..good question! Wish I had an answer. I used to wonder why we even baptize babies
until it was pointed out to me the many examples of entire households being baptized in the Bible. I smell a good thread comin’!
KB

Response:

Question:

Pat: The entire WEbsite is a joke, get it? It’s a JOKE!!! It’s fake, ther is no parish, and the articles are fake!!! So any reaction besides laughter is a little obsessive… K.J. Cornish "Preach the Gospel daily; if necessary, use words."                         – Francis of Assisi

Response:

Johnston) writes: http://www.come.to/landover I am still laughing over this site and it has been three days!  Here’s an example of this ‘hilarious’ web site.  (You gotta see it to believe it.)

Here’s another.  I thought Baptists weren’t supposed to drink? (If it comes through with html markups, it’s not my fault!) Our own, Rev. Clunas is a proud Porshe collector Post Communion Party Ministry:

Question:

writes: EK Again, since I have never said that, you can not read my logic in EK it. That’s the problem Evan, your arguements hold no logic. As I said, it wasn’t what I said.  Since it was what you came up with may be the reason that one can’t find logic in it.

  As for the assertion from this thread that you admitted Purgatory, I have no doubt you never said it.  As for your other assertions, which seems to change according to what you want it to read, you have. Pax Christi,  Pat "Pray for us O Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the Promises of Christ."

Response:

I have often wondered, since you asserted that the first seven councils were all we needed, if that means Christ stopped revealoing the truth to His Church?  Obviously so, because you assert that He must have stopped after number seven!

Since I never said that, I am sure that you are wondering. Yet Christ said He would have the Holy Spirit guide His Church in ALL truth and that He would be with her until the end of the world.  Hmm, if I read your logic correctly, the world ended sometime after the seventh council.

Again, since I have never said that, you can not read my logic in it. Evan

Response:

writes: Again, since I have never said that, you can not read my logic in it.

That’s the problem Evan, your arguements hold no logic.   No Papal authority allowed, no Counciliar authority allowed, no nothing.   Is it that the RCC left you, or rather, and more likely considering your apparent theoilogy, the Church continued to grow in truth and rightousness, and you just stopped growing.  So, is that we left, or you saw us go on while you stood in one place and said, "We don’t know!" Pax Christi,  Pat "Pray for us O Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the Promises of Christ."

Response:

EK Again, since I have never said that, you can not read my logic in EK it. That’s the problem Evan, your arguements hold no logic.

As I said, it wasn’t what I said.  Since it was what you came up with may be the reason that one can’t find logic in it. No Papal authority allowed, no Counciliar authority allowed, no nothing.

I am almost afraid to ask, but what are you talking about? Is it that the RCC left you, or rather, and more likely considering your apparent theoilogy, the Church continued to grow in truth and rightousness, and you just stopped growing.

Again, Pat, personal attacks when you have nothing to add. Evan

Response:

You have already be defeated Evan and you DID admit it:-)

Response:

Another Roman Catholic victory!!!! O Mary, Mother of mercy and Refuge of sinners, we beseech thee, be pleased to look with pitiful eyes upon poor heretics and schismatics.  Thou who art the Seat of Wisdom, enlighten the minds that are miserable enfolded in the darkness of ignorance and sin, that they may clearly know that the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church is the one true Church of Jesus Christ, outside of which neither holiness nor salvation can be found. Finish the work of their conversion by obtaining for them the grace to accept all the truths of our Holy Faith, and to submit themselves to the Supreme Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth; that so, being united with us in the sweet chains of divine charity, there may soon be only one fold under the same one Shepherd; and may we all, O glorious Virgin, sing forever with exultation:  Rejoice, O Virgin Mary, thou only hast destroyed all heresies in the whole world.                                                             Amen. Hail Mary, Three times. (Pius IX, Raccolta No. 579.)

Response:

Thanks                                                                

This seems as silly as some who go out of their way to claim to see apparations of Mary in their bowl of corn flakes.  I think any email in which Evan admits in Purgatory is clearly a FALSE apparation. <G That is not to say that one day he might not admit that the whole truth is contained within the Catholic Church, I do have high hopes for him. — |  _______          |Christopher Beattie |    801 Eisenhower Dr| | /__   __ Peace   |Tantalus Inc.       |   Key West, FL 33040| |    /    and     |Development Div.    |Phone: (305) 293-8100| |                   |#include <disclamer.standard.hpp         |

Response:

writes: Since Evan can’t defend himself on principal ,then he must be a bigot.   That is no suprise to me at all, just look at my home page. It does seem that you are far more interested in promoting your home page than you are in much else.

  No less than your assertion that all we need for proof of your assertions is your say so.  I have often wondered, since you asserted that the first seven councils were all we needed, if that means Christ stopped revealoing the truth to His Church?  Obviously so, because you assert that He must have stopped after number seven!   Yet Christ said He would have the Holy Spirit guide His Church in ALL truth and that He would be with her until the end of the world.  Hmm, if I read your logic correctly, the world ended sometime after the seventh council. Pax Christi,  Pat "Pray for us O Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the Promises of Christ."

Response:

Thanks

Response:

We were talking about Purgatory and Not Heaven and they prayed for 2000 years.

Response:

We were talking about Purgatory and Not Heaven and they prayed for 2000 years.

Yeah, right. Get well. Evan

Response:

writes: For what?  I never did what you say that I did in your header. I have, however, corrected the errors of your belief in this Roman Catholic creation.  For that you should be thankful. So, having for having shown you the errors of your way, I accept your thanks and say you are welcome.

  Shown what?  your ignorance?  Well let’s see, the EO pray for the dead, have since the begining, for what?  If there is no purgatory, if one ‘awakens’ from their sleep to the Final Judgement, it’s either heaven or hell.  So, if there is no purgatory, what the reason for the prayers Evan?   I forgot, sorry, facts and reality mean little in your fantasy world. Pax Christi,  Pat "In te speravi, Domine; dixi: tu es Deus meus." (I have put my trust in Thee, O lord: I said, Thou art my God.)

Response:

Pat writes: Shown what?  your ignorance?  Well let’s see, the EO pray for the dead, have since the begining, for what?  If there is no purgatory, if one ‘awakens’ from their sleep to the Final Judgement, it’s either heaven or hell.  So, if there is no purgatory, what the reason for the prayers

Evan?  I forgot, sorry, facts and reality mean little in your fantasy world. Pax Christi,  Pat

The fact that we pray for the dead does not prove purgatory.  The intermediate state between when we die and judgement has been an open question for a long time in the Church, until the west made a dogma of a certain school of thought.   Just because one does not admit the existence of purgatory that does not mean that one does not believe in an intermediate state.  In fact Evan talked about what most Orthodox believe takes place in the 40 days after one’s death.  Praying for the dead then is not inconsistent with not believing in purgatory.   In Christ, Marc "Those who use abortifacients commit homicide."     St. Clement

Response:

Since Evan can’t defend himself on principal ,then he must be a bigot.   That is no suprise to me at all, just look at my home page. URL:http://members.aol.com/KFHAM/index.html

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Since Evan can’t defend himself on principal ,then he must be a bigot.   That is no suprise to me at all, just look at my home page. It does seem that you are far more interested in promoting your home page than you are in much else.                                                                    

Evan, If I haven’t made this clear before, I firmly belive you are *not* a bigot.  I might have called you obnoxious at times, but you are not as obnoxious as the background color on KFHAM’s home page. (Is that an obnoxious color of orange or what?) And frankly he doesn’t have much of a home page to brag about. I don’t have a public page to brag about, but I can share some url’s from my private one which I think are far better as references in apologetics. <A HREF = "http://www.cs.cmu.edu/web/people/spok/catholic.html"Catholic Resources</A <A HREF = "http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~kellmeye/welcome.html"SCRIPTURAL CATHOLICISM</A <A HREF = "http://www.sni.net/advent/cathen/"Catholic Encyclopedia</A <A HREF = "http://www.catholicity.com/Cathedral/CSE.html"Catholic Society of Evangelists</A: A Worldwide Lay Apostolate <A HREF = "http://christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html"Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church</A! <A HREF = "http://www.catholic.net/"Catholic Information Center on Internet</A They are all pretty good in their own ways. — |  _______          |Christopher Beattie |    801 Eisenhower Dr| | /__   __ Peace   |Tantalus Inc.       |   Key West, FL 33040| |    /    and     |Development Div.    |Phone: (305) 293-8100| |                   |#include <disclamer.standard.hpp         |

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