Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I, a Roman Catholic organist, heartily agree.  As for the praise song that sounds like the Brady Bunch theme excerpt, I believe that would be Dan Schutte’s "Here I Am, Lord".  It’s strange that the song was copyrighted in 1981 and it wasn’t until 1991 that I noticed the similarity.  It first came up while reading Thomas Day’s book, titled "Why Catholics Can’t Sing".  If you haven’t read the book, it’s a MUST READ for all liturgical musicians, and those into liturgical music.  Mr. Day is blunt, and right to the point in all his chapters.  At one church where I was organist, I suggested this book to a couple of young seminarians as "required reading" for all who want to celebrate the liturgy. Contemporary liturgical music is not what it was meant to be…at least I don’t think.  Since the advent of the folk Mass, its meaning has been scarred.  As for the "grunge Mass", I would leave that in a heartbeat.  Same goes for a "rap Mass" if it ever came to that.

Yes, but what about a polka mass? (For the blissfully ignorant, polka masses do exist.  In fact, there is a Roman priest that travels around holding these masses.) And now, on another subject… A fine example of contemporary is that of the late Alexander Peloquin (1918- 1997).  He was music director of our Cathedral for over 40 years, wrote many pieces for both choirs and congregations.  Much of it was published by GIA, which gave permissions for some of the pieces and arrangements (like those of Richard Proulx) to your Hymnal 1982.  It’s a shame they overlooked Peloquin. Check it out.  He wrote with a Bernstein/Gershwin influence.  But, I must say that your denomination has a standard hymnal that is far superior than what most of the RC publishers have put out.  Our best is WORSHIP (by GIA, 1986).

There might have been some preference given to Proulx because of his background. He has been in the employ of an St. Thomas Episcopal Church, Medina, Washington. Around Seattle, Medina is best known for being the home ZIP code for Bill Gates. On a CD I have of Proulx’s music, you can hear the "Seattle" influence:  a Psalm setting written for St. Mark’s Compline Choir. Also, Proulx has kept close contact with the Episcopal musical cabal.  From 1985 I remember a personal description James Litton gave to a workshop in South Dakota of Proulx’s adaptation of Franz Peter Schubert’s *Songs of the Holy Offering of the Mass* (commonly known as the Deutsche Messe), most of which has found its way into the *Hymnal 1982* (which actually was published in 1985; General Convention approved the hymn texts in 1982). This just might explain why Proulx over Alexander Peloquin. Venite exultemus. Bob Chapman — Robert R. Chapman, Jr.

Response:

i belong to a n episopal church that incorparates praise/contemporary music in our church services on a regular bases .  the response has been positive !!!!!!  singing in church is worship……people want to music encourages group participation and allows for an emotional response to the  presence of god

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There might have been some preference given to Proulx because of his background. He has been in the employ of an St. Thomas Episcopal Church, Medina, Washington. Around Seattle, Medina is best known for being the home ZIP code for Bill Gates. On a CD I have of Proulx’s music, you can hear the "Seattle" influence:  a Psalm setting written for St. Mark’s Compline Choir. Also, Proulx has kept close contact with the Episcopal musical cabal.  From 1985 I remember a personal description James Litton gave to a workshop in South Dakota of Proulx’s adaptation of Franz Peter Schubert’s *Songs of the Holy Offering of the Mass* (commonly known as the Deutsche Messe), most of which has found its way into the *Hymnal 1982* (which actually was published in 1985; General Convention approved the hymn texts in 1982). This just might explain why Proulx over Alexander Peloquin. Venite exultemus. Bob Chapman — Robert R. Chapman, Jr.

It does, big time, since Peloquin’s roots were strictly Catholic.  But, please don’t get me wrong.  Proulx is a superior composer, compared to the flotsum and jetsum that floats into the OCP books chronically. BMP — Cheers, Brian

Response:

You have missed a major point here.  First, let us look at what you said. Then, I will (modestly, I hope) suggest some rewording that fits in with other people’s experiences.

[quote] i belong to a n episopal church that incorparates praise/contemporary music in our church services on a regular bases .  the response has been positive !!!!!!  singing in church is worship……people want to music encourages group participation and allows for an emotional response to the  presence of god

[unquote] Now here is a suggested rewording of your statement, taking into account what others have said previously (I hope formatting does not make this confusing): [modified statement] I belong to an Episopal Church that incorparates praise and so-called contemporary music in our church services on a regular basis. The response has been positive! Singing in church is worship. *Some* people want and need active, physical participation, whereas others need to worship in a more contemplative manner. Praise music encourages active participation.  Both active and contemplative methods allow for an emotional response to the  presence of God.

[end modified statement] Not every person responds the same way to the same situation. Also, "a response to the presence of God" can take many forms.  Having an experience of being strangely warmed does not require loud music.  A still, small voice works very well, thank you. In fact, don’t count on responding to praise music 10 years from now as you do today.   I am not saying you will dislike it, but "familiarity breeds contempt."  You talked about making an emotional response:  no one responds the same way to the same, continuous stimuli over a long period of time. Again, I am not saying you will "hate" it later–only your response will be different. These words are coming from a person that was singing from *Songs of Praise* Vol. 1 from Word of God in Ann Arbor, Michigan, when it was *Songs of Praise* from Charismatic Renewal Services in Ann Arbor.  I went through a Roman "Life in the Spirit Seminar" (I was a Saturday night organist at St. Patrick’s, Rolla, Missouri) lead by an "interesting" group of clericals and monastics from St. Louis (including Fr. Francis McNutt).  My evangelical-charismatic credentials are "solid" enough; what I have is an appreciation that we all aren’t wired alike.  I also know that what was once "contemporary" is now 20-30 years old. What bothers me more in this thread is that no one, myself included, has mentioned the Episcopal supplemental hymnal *Lift Every Voice and Sing* Vol. 2.  It is a well-researched and assembled collection of gospel (both African American and European American origins, in spite of a name that implies African-only) and praise music.  Personally, I have a great love of the hymn "Wade in the Water," found in this collection. Venite exultemus, Bob — Robert R. Chapman, Jr. Lynnwood, Washington USA

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You bring up an appropriate point:  what is "contemporary worship"? Or to be even more pointed, how contemporary does it have to be? One could, after all, complain about the fact that most "praise songs" (aka Vat. II RC stuff) sound the twenty-odd years old that they are. A LOT of them sound like Barry Manilow arrangements. Jazz (depending upon its denomination) goes back another twenty, at least. 12 tone and its serialist relatives are now running about eighty years old (and show no signs whatsoever of any popular appeal– can we quit yet?). Then we get to protestant end of things. In the average parish, one hopes that the congregation sings at least three hymns, and the service music if it is sung at all. (There is a local parish where the choir sings a different service every week, but clearly this is a special case.) The choir gets an anthem, maybe some communion music, and the occaisional introit, plus special stuff for C&E. Contemporary choir music is one thing (although if I never have to sing another Mad Lutheran anthem anthem, I will not be unhappy); but one really must expect the congregational stuff to singable and to be rewarding to sing. I think that lets out Philip Glass, for the most part, or any other ‘academic’ modern music. We’ve used some Taize stuff; it works well as communion music, and it doesn’t sound goofy on the organ. The main problem is that the vast bulk of it is in Latin. Some of John Michael Talbot’s stuff might work in the same context. Ironically, some of the best new stuff in the hymnal is quite old: all the shape note music. There is a LOT of stuff to be mined here, and the colonial material is great for choirs. I find it unfortunate that the term "contemporary" has been hijacked by some to mean "guitars" and "folk music," as if all contemporary music is in 3/4 time in D major. The explanation for this is quite simple. This stuff started out in the RC church during that idiot period where everything had to be as unlike the tridentine mass as possible. The "folk mass" was the model to follow, although, ironically, the 1940 and 1982 Episcopal hymnals both have lots of genuine folk material. As far as this "grunge mass" is concerned… Today, grunge is *not* contemporary.  It is not what the 20-something clubs in Seattle are playing. This is, I think, where the whole idea of "contemporary" goes down in flames. Except in certain very specialized contexts, nothing is contemporary to everyone. (You can count me out on Curt Cobain, if only because I’ve tended to gravitate towards the Renaissance in the past decade.) Preparing a special service is one thing, and you can do all kinds of stuff that you simply cannot do on Sunday morning. At the main Sunday eucharist you have an obligation to accomodate the visitor off the street. The other danger of "contemporary" music is unintentional humor. How many of you can tell me which praise song contains an excerpt from the Brady Bunch theme song? And then there’s "Majesty", which makes "How Great Thou Art" sound like Bach. Real contemporary sounding there. There are also us hardheads who insist on singing correct grammar on "As the Deer" ("Thou alone art my strength, my sheild; to Thee alone may my spirit yield"). C. "I bind unto myself today" Wingate

I, a Roman Catholic organist, heartily agree.  As for the praise song that sounds like the Brady Bunch theme excerpt, I believe that would be Dan Schutte’s "Here I Am, Lord".  It’s strange that the song was copyrighted in 1981 and it wasn’t until 1991 that I noticed the similarity.  It first came up while reading Thomas Day’s book, titled "Why Catholics Can’t Sing".        If you haven’t read the book, it’s a MUST READ for all liturgical musicians, and those into liturgical music.  Mr. Day is blunt, and right to the point in all his chapters.  At one church where I was organist, I suggested this book to a couple of young seminarians as "required reading" for all who want to celebrate the liturgy. Contemporary liturgical music is not what it was meant to be…at least I don’t think.  Since the advent of the folk Mass, its meaning has been scarred.  As for the "grunge Mass", I would leave that in a heartbeat.        Same goes for a "rap Mass" if it ever came to that. A fine example of contemporary is that of the late Alexander Peloquin (1918- 1997).  He was music director of our Cathedral for over 40 years, wrote many pieces for both choirs and congregations.  Much of it was published by GIA, which gave permissions for some of the pieces and arrangements (like those of Richard Proulx) to your Hymnal 1982.  It’s a shame they overlooked Peloquin. Check it out.  He wrote with a Bernstein/Gershwin influence.  But, I must say that your denomination has a standard hymnal that is far superior than what most of the RC publishers have put out.  Our best is WORSHIP (by GIA, 1986). — Cheers, Brian

Response:

You bring up an appropriate point:  what is "contemporary worship"? Or to be even more pointed, how contemporary does it have to be? One could, after all, complain about the fact that most "praise songs" (aka Vat. II RC stuff) sound the twenty-odd years old that they are. A LOT of them sound like Barry Manilow arrangements. Jazz (depending upon its denomination) goes back another twenty, at least. 12 tone and its serialist relatives are now running about eighty years old (and show no signs whatsoever of any popular appeal– can we quit yet?).

Hey, there is a Samuel Barber piano concerto that has 12-tone rows buried in it at specific places.  Typically, in the good "serious" music being composed today you will find elements of various genre, including 12-tone. Stravinksy tended not to follow the rules exacatly, anyway.  What we don’t seem to hear any more are new pure 12-tone rows (forward, backwards, upside down, inside out, through and through, and ad nausaum). (I assumed by "popular appeal" you were not making reference to "popular music.") Then we get to protestant end of things. In the average parish, one hopes that the congregation sings at least three hymns, and the service music if it is sung at all. (There is a local parish where the choir sings a different service every week, but clearly this is a special case.) The choir gets an anthem, maybe some communion music, and the occaisional introit, plus special stuff for C&E. Contemporary choir music is one thing (although if I never have to sing another Mad Lutheran anthem anthem, I will not be unhappy); but one really must expect the congregational stuff to singable and to be rewarding to sing. I think that lets out Philip Glass, for the most part, or any other ‘academic’ modern music.

Actually, the thing I like about the Glass organ CD I have is its Orthodox chant-like quality in terms of repetition.  (Having been "permitted" to stay through an entire Old Calendar Russian Orthodox Pascha–why would the priest kick out the only person that could read the chant music besides him, which included the cantor–I can say I know a VERY little bit about Orthodox liturgical repetition.)  The more I listen to the works, the more I get out of them; my ears start to pick out the subtle variation in the voices. Still, I will say this is an acquired taste, at least to someone raised on Bach, Brahms, and Beethoven (but maybe not on Orthodox liturgical music). Of course, considering the legnth a Glass work requires before becoming "effective," I would not expect too many small mission congregation choirs taking up the challenge, along with the likes of Hindemith and a few others. I think that is why the US church music canon reads "appropriate to the context." We’ve used some Taize stuff; it works well as communion music, and it doesn’t sound goofy on the organ. The main problem is that the vast bulk of it is in Latin. Some of John Michael Talbot’s stuff might work in the same context.

The Taiz