Question:
"You need to get yourself a Bible my friend…" If YOU have one, how come you can’t provide a proof text backing up your assertion ? The DataRat
Response:
"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear, nor are they one among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man’s part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." – J.R.R. Tolkien – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to ‘the perfect’ apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves." The DataRat replies: Oh, great, the Apostles had secret knowledge that they imparted only to certain adepts ! The Gnostics here will be glad to hear that. Not to mention Scientologists and all sorts of other New Age cultists.
A little charity in your analysis of ancient texts would go a long way. In you evaluation of the Fathers you are as illegitimately uncharitable (and that is bad hermeneutics) in the same way as atheists and Biblical skeptics in their evaluation of scripture. Their fallenness is darkening their intellects and that is what is compelling them to this very basic error in textual analysis. What is compelling you to do the same? Did you not notice the word "if" there as you were writing it? Ireneaus was no Gnostic. He was a TERROR to the Gnostics! Are you pulling these out of context Patrisitic quotes out of some Jack Chick comic or something? Or maybe there’s some new Rhodes Scholar out there writing pamphlets entitled "How To Beat The Dirty Romanists Any Which Way You Can" published by Screw J.P.2 Inc, perhaps? My friend, this is not like you. This is far below your usual standard of argumentation. I have seen you do much better than this. The Romanists may maintain that the Apostles held back secret knowledge ( occultism )
Has someone hijacked The DataRat’s computer? Or is this Mr. Hyde posting? You really know better than this. I am surprised at you, sir. , but Christians believe the Gospel has been plainly and completely presented in it’s fullness. Clearly not everything Christ and the apostles did, said, and wrote, is preserved for us today.
Clearly that contradicts what Christ said – the heaven and earth would pass away before His words ever would. If not all His words are in scripture, then the oral tradition Paul spoke of must still be active! Yet, we can be certain that EVERYTHING we need to know about the Gospel has been reliably recorded and preserved.
Everything Jesus taught has been preserved through word of mouth and epistle. Everything we need to know is in the Bible, but some things are taught more explicitly than other things which need oral tradition to bring them out. Kevin
Response:
"Why do you keep coming back tring to convert us." The answer to that, Carole, can be found in Mark 16:15-16. Like any job, it’s not always the most pleasant work in the world, but it’s commanded by the Master. "Most of us laugh at you daily." Humor can be a valid evangelistic tool. Keep laughing, and keep reading ! "Catholic and proud of it." Christian and saved because of it ! Your Pal, The DataRat
Response:
"You are claiming that knowledge that Jesus imparted to the Apostles has passed away? My my my how very anti-biblical of you." Oh my my my my, The DataRat guess that that John was so very anti-biblical for writing John 21:25 ! Oh my, oh dear ! Quit worshipping Mary, and read the Word of God ! DR
Response:
"You are claiming that knowledge that Jesus imparted to the Apostles has passed away? My my my how very anti-biblical of you." Oh my my my my, The DataRat guess that that John was so very anti-biblical for writing John 21:25 ! Oh my, oh dear ! Quit worshipping Mary, and read the Word of God ! DR
Why do you keep coming back tring to convert us. My friend you are the one that needs help.We beleive in our faith but more than that we believe in the Lord We love the Lord.Find a non Christian faith and preach you style of hate for other faiths, You’ll get just as many converts. People like you who think they know it all, know very little Pleases leave or stop your insulting rremarks. Most of us laugh at you daily. I guess you could say ypur thee Joke of the day. Catholic and proud of it. CaroleAnn
Response:
"The Chosen of God ( Moses, Abraham, et. al. ), from before the Atonement had to go to Paradise to await the Atonement." Let’s NOT trip over terminology. The work of the atonement was finished on the cross. Yet, Jesus told the thief: "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise." ( Luke 23:43 NASB )
You need to get yourself a Bible my friend and maybe join of the many biblesudies online, there are many. There are many who can help you along. First, and this may clear up a great many mysteries for you: The Atonement was not finished while Jesus hung on the Cross, the Atonement was completed when Jesus sat down at the right hand of power. That’s why "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The Chosen of God ( Moses, Abraham, et. al. ), from before the Atonement had to go to Paradise to await the Atonement." Let’s NOT trip over terminology. The work of the atonement was finished on the cross. Yet, Jesus told the thief: "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise." ( Luke 23:43 NASB ) You need to get yourself a Bible my friend and maybe join of the many biblesudies online, there are many. There are many who can help you along. First, and this may clear up a great many mysteries for you: The Atonement was not finished while Jesus hung on the Cross, the Atonement was completed when Jesus sat down at the right hand of power. That’s why "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43
(Young’s Literal Translation) 1 John 2:1,2 My little children, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin: and if any one may sin, an advocate we have with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one, and he – he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world The sitting down on the right hand of the Majesty on high, shows us that Christ’s sacrifice is not only most acceptable to the Father, but also is everlasting, and that there wouldn’t be a need of another; furthermore it points out how far this High Priest {Christ} surpasses all the other high priests. For the other high priests NEVER sat down, for their job {blood sacrifices} was never finished. — Bro. Frank Jubilee Temple http://homepages.infoseek.com/~jubileetemple/index.html For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God, our Savior; who desires to have all men to be saved, and come to full knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3,4
Response:
"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear, nor are they one among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man’s part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." – J.R.R. Tolkien – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "What about the Book of Revelation’s explicit identification of Rome with Babylon?" Cite your proof text ! "Well I guess for Peter to presume to send greeting from a place he had never been, he would have to have primacy!" No, just mail and/or messangers ! "Why would they lie about this?" A fallacy of presuming causes ! They very well could have thought it was true.
SOMEONE would have had to make up the lie. Who and why? Many people have willingly died for ideas they believed correct, but which later were found to be false.
Between this and your historical skepticism, DR, you are eroding all rational grounding for the foundational belief of Christianity – the ressurection. Do you realize that you have now made worthless the testimony of the martyrs of the early Church? "…It’s in chapter 17, I think." Quote it, and we’ll see if it really has an "explicit identification of Rome with Babylon" …or, whether it’s NOT as explicit as you claim !
Revelation 17. Pay close attention to verses 9 and 18. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The DataRat .
Response:
Clearly not everything Christ and the apostles did, said, and wrote, is preserved for us today. Yet, we can be certain that EVERYTHING we need to know about the Gospel has been reliably recorded and preserved. DR
Heaven and earth will pass away, but MY word will NEVER Pass Away. You are claiming that knowledge that Jesus imparted to the Apostles has passed away? My my my how very anti-biblical of you.
Response:
Greetings, "Peter’s ending up in Rome (where history records he and Paul were martyred) – all can be found in the very earliest documents of the Church" Perhaps you can specify the particular records AND their dates.
There is additional evidence beyond what was written in early Church documents. "The Bones of Saint Peter?" by John Curran details and reviews the historical evidence that was uncovered. It can be found at: http://www.ucd.ie/~classics/96/Curran96.html May God lead us to a fuller understanding of His truth and may His peace go with you. — 1 Peter 3:8-15 [8] Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind. [9] Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing. [10] For "He that would love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking guile; [11] let him turn away from evil and do right; let him seek peace and pursue it. [12] For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those that do evil." [13] Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is right? [14] But even if you do suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, [15] but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;
Response:
"For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to ‘the perfect’ apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves." The DataRat replies: Oh, great, the Apostles had secret knowledge that they imparted only to certain adepts ! The Gnostics here will be glad to hear that. Not to mention Scientologists and all sorts of other New Age cultists. The Romanists may maintain that the Apostles held back secret knowledge ( occultism ), but Christians believe the Gospel has been plainly and completely presented in it’s fullness. Clearly not everything Christ and the apostles did, said, and wrote, is preserved for us today. Yet, we can be certain that EVERYTHING we need to know about the Gospel has been reliably recorded and preserved. DR
Response:
St. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130-202) Adversus haereses Book 3 Chapter 3 A refutation of the heretics, from the fact that, in the various churches, a perpetual succession of bishops was kept up 1. It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to "the perfect" apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity. 2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority — that is, the faithful everywhere — inasmuch as the Apostolic Tradition has been preserved continuously by those who are everywhere. [Ad hanc enim eoclesiam propter potentiorem principalitatem necesse est omnem convenire ecclesiam, hoc est eos qui sunt undique fideles, in qua semper ab his qui sunt undique, conservata est ea qu
If you like this post and would like to receive updates from this blog, please subscribe our feed.