Question:
@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes… the truth that Catholics as well as Jews were killed in camps as Poland was invaded… the fact that Hitler was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church by his actions… the fact that millions of Catholics went to war against Germany, Italy, and Japan… You point to a handful of Catholics in the camps as if that means anything in the scheme of what went on. Maybe if the Pope had said something those millions of Polish and Ukrainian Catholics wouldn’t gone along with the slaughter of the Jews in Poland. 3 million is a mite more than a handful.
I want to see a cite that shows that 3 million Catholics died in the camps because they were Catholic. — Bush is not my President.
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Ever notice how the Catholic culties get real quiet when the truth of the church and their response to the holocaust comes up? Not really. The Church and the Pope did an awful lot to relieve the pain and suffering.
Nonsense. They did little more than wave bye-bye. — Bush is not my President.
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You point to a handful of Catholics in the camps as if that means anything in the scheme of what went on. Maybe if the Pope had said something those millions of Polish and Ukrainian Catholics wouldn’t gone along with the slaughter of the Jews in Poland. He did, and they didn’t.
He didn’t, and they did. — Bush is not my President.
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But let’s not forget that most other large institutions – eg the Lutheran church and most nation-states – have a similarly spotty record.
I have a real problem with the argument "yes, but they were just as bad". The RCC was the largest non-national power in Europe. They could and should have taken a stronger stand if they didn’t wish to be seen as going along.. — Bush is not my President.
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If the Pope targetted Hitler or any of his allies, the entire Church would have been persecuted. If the Pope said "stand up and fight" what would have stopped them from turning against catholics who stood up and faught? The Pope is responsible for the well-being of the Church. The Pope is an individual. You act as though he isn’t…
So the position of the church is to abandon its principles in the face of persecution? I wonder how Jesus would have felt about such a morally tepid stance. Again, this 45 million people died figure arises. Not only Jews died. Those who faught to end the war were killed too. Let’s not foget about those men who bravely faught to end this war…
Lots of people got killed. Most of them were Russians, Poles, and Germans. I am not even really going to say anything about this. The Catholic Church post Vatican II has reformed to hold dear to her heart the santity of life. It was a WAR. The Roman Catholic Church does NOT have an ARMY. Political wars, despite there being rooted in religious-genocide, must be battled with nations that have armies.
Apparently it didn’t have much of a moral stance on the war either. You plea that it was done to protect the chuch is kind of pathetic. — Bush is not my President.
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You point to a handful of Catholics in the camps as if that means anything in the scheme of what went on. Maybe if the Pope had said something those millions of Polish and Ukrainian Catholics wouldn’t gone along with the slaughter of the Jews in Poland. The President of the United States didn’t say anything. And, unlike the Pope, he had something other than a few alter boys to throw at the concentration camps.
The POTUS was a poltician. The Pope was (supposedly) the spiritual leader of at least half of Europe. — Bush is not my President.
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Regarding the relationship between Pius XII and the Jews. As far as the (accusation of) silence is concerned, we know very well that any public protest against Nazism would have provoked a disaster. Not only against the Catholics but, especially, against the Jews.
How could things have gotten any worse for the Jews? I can’t believe the double-think that allows you to put forward this position. The fact is that he went along aith the Nazis, and did very little other than some token saves of a few Jews. — Bush is not my President.
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It was no more true for the Catholic church than most every other religious & secular organization in the west.
Of course it is noteworthy. It was in those countries which were most Catholic that the Jews were also treated badly – Poland come to mind. You know what helped Hitler more than anything that the Pope could imagine? The Neutrality act, passed by congress and signed by the President.
Nobody has said the Pope helped Hitler. He simply went along and didn’t do his job. — Bush is not my President.
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It’s certainly questionable whether Pius was pro-Nazi, but there is no doubt he made a lot of accomodations to Hitler that could very well have eased his rise to power by neutering Catholic opposition in Germany.
The point I had made — and I hate having to defend the Catholic church — is that this was not the least bit noteworthy. It was no more true for the Catholic church than most every other religious & secular organization in the west. You know what helped Hitler more than anything that the Pope could imagine? The Neutrality act, passed by congress and signed by the President. Although it’s true that Roosevelt wanted to get the U.S. into the war, the political realities were such that he just couldn’t do it. Many forces in America took it much further. Prescott Bush — grandfather of our present day King George — and Henry Ford were two American supporters of the NAZIs. Shell Oil — the old "Royal Dutch Shell" company" — had a love affiar with Hitler. Texaco did as well, but not to the extant that Shell did. The Chairman of Shell constituted a one-man Hitler fan club.
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It is far more likely that the Catholic Church wasn’t all that upset about the loss of the Jews. After all, they had worked on the problem for hundreds of years without a "final solution".
Mentioning that little fact undermines your whole argument to the point of collapse. The Church had hundreds of years of complete dominance in Europe, if it had wanted to eliminate the Jews it would have done so, just like it did to Mithraism and all the other religions that existed at the end of the Roman era. So why didn’t she? The historically literate know the answer. The Church deliberately protected Judaism, tolerating it like no other rival religion, allowing the Jews to maintain their culture and thrive. As for the Pope during WW2, he did everything he could to oppose the Nazis and save as many Jews as possible. But don’t take my word for it, listen to Golda Meir, At Pope Pius XII death in 1958, Golda Meir sent an eloquent message: "We share in the grief of humanity. When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the pope was raised for its victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out about great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace."
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You point to a handful of Catholics in the camps as if that means anything in the scheme of what went on. Maybe if the Pope had said something those millions of Polish and Ukrainian Catholics wouldn’t gone along with the slaughter of the Jews in Poland. The President of the United States didn’t say anything. And, unlike the Pope, he had something other than a few alter boys to throw at the concentration camps. As a matter of fact, the only allied bombings of concentration camps targeted the industry employing the prisoners as slave labor, and killed many of those prisoners.
kind of off topic but I recommend reading a book called A Man Called Intrepid (William Stephenson/Stevenson?). It outlines a lot of the things Roosevelt was trying to do behind the scenes (as well as why he was behind the scenes).
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JMJ "Sean C" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Dave Lister" wrote Ever notice how the Catholic culties get real quiet when the truth of the church and their response to the holocaust comes up? I hate to say it — being an early escapee from the Catholic church — but it’s all a bunch of bullshit. The Catholic church was (and remains) psychotically anti-Communist, due almost entirely to the fact that Communist Russia was an officially atheistic state. But, they were no more "pro-Nazi" than any other Christian church on the European continent, or religious & secular groups here in the United States. In fairness, he didn’t say the Church was pro-Nazi, but criticized the Church for its response to the Holocaust. There is little doubt on any side of the debate that Pius XII failed to speak out aginst the Holocaust. Whether his sins were those of ommission or commission is where the debate really centers. snip<
Regarding the relationship between Pius XII and the Jews. As far as the (accusation of) silence is concerned, we know very well that any public protest against Nazism would have provoked a disaster. Not only against the Catholics but, especially, against the Jews. Here’s an exerpt from "The Real Story of Pius XII and the Jews on the subject By James Bogle {Barrister of the Middle Temple, and former Cavalry officer) snip<
Pius XII intended to followed the Dutch Roman Catholic hierarchy’s plan of nameing the Jews explicitly in their condemnation of Nazi deportations, he intended to issue a similar statement. The Nazis threatened to arrest more Jews. The Dutch Reformed Church agreed not to protest openly but the Roman Catholic hierarchy issued, in April 1942, their famous protest against the deportations. The Nazis then launched an all-out offensive against Jews (except those who had converted to the Dutch Protestant Reformed Church). Ironically, it was the Dutch hierarchy’s letter of open condemnation which led to the arrest and execution of Edith Stein, the Jewish Roman Catholic nun and philosopher and Anne Frank. (By the end of WWII 86% of Amsterdams Jews had been sent to German Concentration camps as compared to 28% of Rome’s Jews, jc) The news of the increased persecution reached Pius XII. His own protest was due to go into "L’Osservatore Romano" that very evening but he had the draft burnt saying "If the protest of the Dutch Bishops has cost the lives of 40,000 people, my intervention would take at least 200,000 people to their deaths." (See "11 Seitimanale", 1 March 1975, p.40.) (This testimony for the Beatification Tribunal was placed on the record for the canonization process of Pope Pius the 12th, by Mother Pasqualina, a nun who served for many years as Pacelli’s housekeeper,jc) Such was the result of openly naming the Jews; more death from vain gestures. There is no doubt that if Pius XII had made such a vain gesture, instead of saving more Jewish lives, he would then have been open to the criticism of having made the situation of Jews worse by vain and inopportune public statements. Those who now criticise him for not saying enough would then have attacked him for saying too much. snip<
unquote Jim Carew sfo
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You point to a handful of Catholics in the camps as if that means anything in the scheme of what went on. Maybe if the Pope had said something those millions of Polish and Ukrainian Catholics wouldn’t gone along with the slaughter of the Jews in Poland.
He did, and they didn’t. duke ***** Matthew 22 14"For many are invited, but few are chosen." *****
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Ever notice how the Catholic culties get real quiet when the truth of the church and their response to the holocaust comes up?
Not really. The Church and the Pope did an awful lot to relieve the pain and suffering. duke ***** Matthew 22 14"For many are invited, but few are chosen." *****
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Yes… the truth that Catholics as well as Jews were killed in camps as Poland was invaded… the fact that Hitler was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church by his actions… the fact that millions of Catholics went to war against Germany, Italy, and Japan… You point to a handful of Catholics in the camps as if that means anything in the scheme of what went on. Maybe if the Pope had said something those millions of Polish and Ukrainian Catholics wouldn’t gone along with the slaughter of the Jews in Poland.
3 million is a mite more than a handful.
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Approach this in two things: There are letters and reports from those who were close to Pope Pius that proved he was against the Nazi regime and feared for teh destruction of the Church in Europe. Those serving by him wanted him to be moved to America. He would not submit to fear! The actions of these Nazi and Fascist leaders meritted excoummincation automatically. Hitler wasn’t Catholic. He claimed so himself: 27th February, 1942, midday: It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors– but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity…. My regret will have been that I couldn’t… behold its demise." (p 278) Then we ask ourselves was Hitler excommunicated? It doesn’t matter whether a formal excommunication occurred. Hitler was already excommunicated ipso facto, under the canon law of the Catholic Church for his sinful crimes. He could only return if the Pope himself removed the excommunication (latae sententiae). Even more, the conference of German bishops excommunicated ALL Nazis in 1930 and in 1932, forbade Catholics to vote for Nazis. Just the way you are talking about excommunication proves that you know what its real purpose is. There is no such thing as a Roman Catholic Nazi. There are those who claim to be Roman Catholic and claim to be Nazis but they are not Roman Catholic, excommunicated by their actions. June 1932: Wilhelm Senn was suspended from his position for joining the National Socialist Party and claimed Hitler was "instrument of divine providence" In spring 1936, Pius issued an encyclical against Nazism and Communism. He ordered the following to be read from all German pulpits: . . . only superficial minds can fall into the error of speaking of a national God, a national religion, or make the attempt to imprison, with the frontiers of a single people, God, the Creator of the world. Hitler banned its reading. Catholic schools were attacke,d Church property was confiscated and Church leaders were harassed. 1000 lesser priests were confined in Dachau. Hitler ordered that no priests from higher ranks were to be arrested because he wanted no Catholic martyrs. After the government of Italy issued the Aryan Manifesto, the Pope urged all Italian Catholics to fight and reject Italy’s racial policies. Pius XI died in 1939 and was replaced by Pius XII. In fear for persecution against Catholics, he attempted to find peace between teh Church and Germany to preserve the lives of Catholics in Germany and areas being attacked. Because of a fear for the people under him, Pius was criticized for his neutrality. With scriptural support, however, he encouraged all Catholics to do their civic duty and to submit to the authority of their governments. In 1942, the Pope pleaded with the Slovakian government that 52 thousand Jews who were being deported to camps not be and remain in their homes. It worked. In 1943, Nazis were arresting the 8 thousand Jews in Rome. Pius paid off the randsom to save those who the randsom was applicable. The PCA was established which worked to help prisoners, deportees, refugees, and oppressed. Reallocation of around 2000 Jews occurred, sending them to the US. The PCA put out 11 million missing persons inquiries and because of that, many of them were answered and families were reunited. The pope intervened in Germany’s euthanasia program and it was halted. Scandinavia wasn’t invaded because of his intercession. There are thousands of scholars who argue that Hitler backed down at every papal intervention. Pope Pius XII served with brilliant diplomacy. He earned the respect of the world and it took great courage for him to preserve the Vatican’s traditional neutrality. He had great success within the Church and did well through diplomacy to stop as much as he could and save who he could. He couldn’t fight… he had no army… He also feared that the Vatican City would be destroyed if he publicly denounced Hitler. He did well in preserving Church, tradition, and attempting to dissolve situations via diplomacy while nations solved them by warfare. -Robert – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s certainly questionable whether Pius was pro-Nazi, but there is no doubt he made a lot of accomodations to Hitler that could very well have eased his rise to power by neutering Catholic opposition in Germany. His failure to speak out against not only the Jewish Holocaust, but the mass murder of millions of Catholics throughout Europe is simply inexcusable. He certainly had no problem speaking out against the communists, who posed a far greater threat to the Church than Hitler did. Protecting the Church itself, and not its millions of followers, seems to have been his primary concern. Let’s remember that to this day, the Church somehow still hasn’t gotten around to excommunicating any of the Nazi or fascist leadership. Sean C
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You point to a handful of Catholics in the camps as if that means anything in the scheme of what went on. Maybe if the Pope had said something those millions of Polish and Ukrainian Catholics wouldn’t gone along with the slaughter of the Jews in Poland.
Do you know anything about WWII? Hitler’s primary goal was Poland. It wasn’t only Jews who were killed. 45 million people died as a result of WWII. Of that, 10 million are known to be Catholic. In parts of Poland, entire congregations were rounded up and sent to prison camps. We are talking clergy, parishes, those of religious life. It was Hitler’s goal to germanize Europe, starting with Poland. Since, however, 40% of Germany was Catholic, he did not take as many radical actions against the population . Those who spoke against him were thrown into concentration camps. That is just rationalization, and you know it. It is easier for the Pope to say something that it was for individuals. Maybe Italy, Spain, and Portugal would have done something about their complicity if the Pope had stood up.
If the Pope targetted Hitler or any of his allies, the entire Church would have been persecuted. If the Pope said "stand up and fight" what would have stopped them from turning against catholics who stood up and faught? The Pope is responsible for the well-being of the Church. The Pope is an individual. You act as though he isn’t… Yawn. That is so feeble I’m surprised you bring it up. At least half of Europe was Catholic – not at all in the same boat as the Jews.
Again, this 45 million people died figure arises. Not only Jews died. Those who faught to end the war were killed too. Let’s not foget about those men who bravely faught to end this war… It is far more likely that the Catholic Church wasn’t all that upset about the loss of the Jews. After all, they had worked on the problem for hundreds of years without a "final solution".
I am not even really going to say anything about this. The Catholic Church post Vatican II has reformed to hold dear to her heart the santity of life. It was a WAR. The Roman Catholic Church does NOT have an ARMY. Political wars, despite there being rooted in religious-genocide, must be battled with nations that have armies. You are rationalizing answers for an historical event based on your modern-day attitudes. You are counting numbers… this is wrong. The people who were killed were not numbers! You argue "only a handful of Catholics were killed… millions of Jews were killed" Numbers: 2800 clergymen were housed at Dachau. Of them, 2500 were Catholic. 1034 died in the camp. In 1940, 800 priests died in Buchenwald, 1200 in 1942, 3000 in 1943. That was just in Buchenwald. This figure doesn’t include the clergy or nuns who were shot, beheaded, or tortued to death in jails all over Europe. In France in 1944, Gestapo arrested 170 priests, 123 who were shot or beheaded before camp. 780 priests died of exhaustion at Mauthausen, 300 at Sachsenhausen, and were hundreds of other camps unknown. 2,770 were counted to have died in transit to camps. The Pope not only had to answer the please from Jews, but to take care of his companions. He is the bishop of the Roman Catholic Church, he has to take care of his clergy. Hitler: "The heaviest blow to humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Borh are inventions of Jews." In 1942, the Pope told a priest, Fr. Dezza "they want to destroy the Church and crush it as a toad… there will be no place for the Pope in the new Europe, they say that I am going to America, I have no fear and I shall remain here." Seminaries were closed, Churches burnt to the ground. newspapers closed and other associations closed down. The Pope was facing two battles: for the survival of the Jews and for the survival of the Church. In Poland, 3 MILLION Catholics went to death along with 3 million Jews. This is in addition to the millions murdered by the Soviets. Any action against Hitler by the Catholic Church leaders provoked more executions of Jews and catholics. 3 million from Poland… I listed around 5000 clergy members for you. These aren’t small numbers anymore… and these are in addition to all of the Catholic soldiers who died, Christian soldiers who died, Jewish soldiers who died. These weren’t people who were fighting to preserve their own religion. These were people fighting to preserve life! Get your facts straight before you speak. Don’t give people numbers. People die in wars. these people were individuals just like you and me. They weren’t numbers and the life of one of them is just as precious as the life of all of them. -Robert
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ever notice how the Catholic culties get real quiet when the truth of the church and their response to the holocaust comes up? I hate to say it — being an early escapee from the Catholic church — but it’s all a bunch of bullshit. The Catholic church was (and remains) psychotically anti-Communist, due almost entirely to the fact that Communist Russia was an officially atheistic state. But, they were no more "pro-Nazi" than any other Christian church on the European continent, or religious & secular groups here in the United States.
In fairness, he didn’t say the Church was pro-Nazi, but criticized the Church for its response to the Holocaust. There is little doubt on any side of the debate that Pius XII failed to speak out aginst the Holocaust. Whether his sins were those of ommission or commission is where the debate really centers. They were (and remain) wildly supportive of any right-wing government, providing that said government demonstrates sufficient reverence for Christianity, and the Catholic church in particular. Fascist Spain? Yes. Definitely. Nazi Germany? No. Nothing the least bit exceptional, nothing to set them apart from other religious & secular organizations in the west.
It’s certainly questionable whether Pius was pro-Nazi, but there is no doubt he made a lot of accomodations to Hitler that could very well have eased his rise to power by neutering Catholic opposition in Germany. His failure to speak out against not only the Jewish Holocaust, but the mass murder of millions of Catholics throughout Europe is simply inexcusable. He certainly had no problem speaking out against the communists, who posed a far greater threat to the Church than Hitler did. Protecting the Church itself, and not its millions of followers, seems to have been his primary concern. Let’s remember that to this day, the Church somehow still hasn’t gotten around to excommunicating any of the Nazi or fascist leadership. Sean C
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You point to a handful of Catholics in the camps as if that means anything in the scheme of what went on. Maybe if the Pope had said something those millions of Polish and Ukrainian Catholics wouldn’t gone along with the slaughter of the Jews in Poland.
The President of the United States didn’t say anything. And, unlike the Pope, he had something other than a few alter boys to throw at the concentration camps. As a matter of fact, the only allied bombings of concentration camps targeted the industry employing the prisoners as slave labor, and killed many of those prisoners.
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Ever notice how the Catholic culties get real quiet when the truth of the church and their response to the holocaust comes up?
Well, I don’t know what a cultie is, but I’m a traditionalist Catholic and I’ve never been quiet about it. The church has a lamentable history of antisemitism and also a dismal record of silence during the Shoah – just like the UK and US nations. Some Catholics did try to save and protect Jews, including some Vatican officials. Others gave Red Cross passports to some of the perpetrators. IMHO, we should all be doing penance for these wrongs, and that must begin with apology and reconciliation. But let’s not forget that most other large institutions – eg the Lutheran church and most nation-states – have a similarly spotty record. Like the way the US rounded up some war-criminals and recruited some others into its secret service. But I assume this record isn’t going to make you turn in your passport. I feel just the same. Let’s not forget either that neither the Us nor the Church perpetrated the shoah. It was actually the Nazis. We shoudl feel soem guilt but we shouldn’t be confused. — Jane Lumley
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Ever notice how the Catholic culties get real quiet when the truth of the church and their response to the holocaust comes up?
I hate to say it — being an early escapee from the Catholic church — but it’s all a bunch of bullshit. The Catholic church was (and remains) psychotically anti-Communist, due almost entirely to the fact that Communist Russia was an officially atheistic state. But, they were no more "pro-Nazi" than any other Christian church on the European continent, or religious & secular groups here in the United States. They were (and remain) wildly supportive of any right-wing government, providing that said government demonstrates sufficient reverence for Christianity, and the Catholic church in particular. Fascist Spain? Yes. Definitely. Nazi Germany? No. Nothing the least bit exceptional, nothing to set them apart from other religious & secular organizations in the west.
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Ever notice how the Catholic culties get real quiet when the truth of the church and their response to the holocaust comes up?
Yup. That’s because the catholics were all for it, or did not care one bit. A good film was made about it : http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0280653/ — Olrik aa #1981 Qualified SMASH member EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
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Yes… the truth that Catholics as well as Jews were killed in camps as Poland was invaded… the fact that Hitler was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church by his actions… the fact that millions of Catholics went to war against Germany, Italy, and Japan…
You point to a handful of Catholics in the camps as if that means anything in the scheme of what went on. Maybe if the Pope had said something those millions of Polish and Ukrainian Catholics wouldn’t gone along with the slaughter of the Jews in Poland. Though Catholic men should stand up and say something against the actions of racism and genocide, it is hard for a leader, especially the Pope, to make such a decision when the hatred is harbored in his country.
That is just rationalization, and you know it. It is easier for the Pope to say something that it was for individuals. Maybe Italy, Spain, and Portugal would have done something about their complicity if the Pope had stood up. The Pope says one thing and the ENTIRE Church is labeled as being an enemy to the cause of the regime and not only Jews but Catholics are slaughtered as well because of the outcry of a leader.
Yawn. That is so feeble I’m surprised you bring it up. At least half of Europe was Catholic – not at all in the same boat as the Jews. If I were a lead what would I do? Would I speak up? Maybe.. would I think about it in fear for the lives of all those who follow my leadership? Yes.
It is far more likely that the Catholic Church wasn’t all that upset about the loss of the Jews. After all, they had worked on the problem for hundreds of years without a "final solution". Ever notice how the Catholic culties get real quiet when the truth of the church and their response to the holocaust comes up? — Bush is not my President.
– Bush is not my President.
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Ever notice how the Catholic culties get real quiet when the truth of the church and their response to the holocaust comes up? — Bush is not my President.
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Yes… the truth that Catholics as well as Jews were killed in camps as Poland was invaded… the fact that Hitler was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church by his actions… the fact that millions of Catholics went to war against Germany, Italy, and Japan… Though Catholic men should stand up and say something against the actions of racism and genocide, it is hard for a leader, especially the Pope, to make such a decision when the hatred is harbored in his country. The Pope says one thing and the ENTIRE Church is labeled as being an enemy to the cause of the regime and not only Jews but Catholics are slaughtered as well because of the outcry of a leader. If I were a lead what would I do? Would I speak up? Maybe.. would I think about it in fear for the lives of all those who follow my leadership? Yes. -Robert
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ever notice how the Catholic culties get real quiet when the truth of the church and their response to the holocaust comes up? — Bush is not my President.
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