Question:
Matthew 16:18 is misinterpreted by the Catholic Church. Jesus had just asked Peter who He (Jesus) was, and Peter replied, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Then Jesus said to Peter: "And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (Petros, meaning a little pebble or moveable stone). And upon this rock (Petra, huge boulder or bedrock) I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt 16:16,18) Jesus used a play on words; in essence He was saying, Peter, you are a pebble, but upon this bedrock foundation I will build My church. The bedrock foundation is Peter’s statement that he made, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. In I Corinthians 3:11 it says, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. The true church is founded upon Jesus Christ the Rock; not Peter the pebble. Psalms 18:31 For who is God except the Lord? or who is a rock except our God? Before you buy.
Response:
Matthew 16:18 is misinterpreted by the Catholic Church.
It was taught from the beginning. Always and everywhere. Tatian the Syrian "Simon Cephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Cephas, and on this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it" (The Diatesseron 23 [A.D. 170]). Tertullian "Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]). Tertullian "[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18-19] . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys" (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]). The Letter of Clement to James "Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus Himself, with His truthful mouth, named Peter" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]) The Clementine Homilies "[Simon Peter said to Simon Magus in Rome:] For you now stand in direct opposition to me, who am a firm rock, the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]" (Clementine Homilies 17:19 [A.D. 221]). Origen "Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’" [Matt. 14:31] (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]). Cyprian of Carthage "The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ‘ [Matt. 16:18-19] On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. . . . If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]). Cyprian of Carthage "There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering" (Letters 43[40]:5 [A.D. 253]). Cyprian of Carthage "There [John 6:68-69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. The people joined to the priest and the flock clinging to their shepherd are the Church. You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishop, and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priests of God, believing that they are secretly [i.e., invisibly] in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and Catholic, is not split nor divided, but it is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere one to another" (Letters 66[69]:8). Firmilian "But what is his error . . . who does not remain on the foundation of the one Church which was founded upon the rock by Christ [Matt. 16:18], can be learned from this, which Christ said to Peter alone: ‘Whatever things you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:19]" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74[75]:16 [A.D. 253]). Firmilian "[Pope] Stephen [I] . . . boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid [Matt. 16:18] . . . [Pope] Stephen . . . announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter" (ibid., 74[75]:17). Ephraim the Syrian "[Jesus said:] Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on Earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples" (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]). Optatus "You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head – that is why he is also called Cephas ["Rock"] – of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]). Ambrose of Milan "[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . . ‘ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?" (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]). Ambrose of Milan "It is to Peter that he says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church, no death is there, but life eternal" (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of David 40:30 [A.D. 389]). Pope Damasus I "Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has not been placed at the forefront [of the churches] by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ‘ [Matt. 16:18-19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]). Jerome "’But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division." (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]). Jerome "I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark on Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]). Augustine "If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement . . . In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found" (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]). Council of Ephesus "Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome], said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors’" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]). Sechnall of Ireland "Steadfast in the fear of God, and in faith immovable, upon [St. Patrick] as upon Peter the [Irish] church is built; and he has been allotted his apostleship by God; against him the gates of hell prevail not" (Hymn in Praise of St. Patrick 3 [A.D. 444]). Pope Leo I "Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the apostles . . . He wished him who had been received into partnership in his undivided unity to be named what he himself was, when he said: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18], that the building of the eternal temple might rest on Peter’s solid rock, strengthening his Church so surely that neither could human rashness assail it nor the gates of hell prevail against it" (Letters 10:1 [A.D. 445]). Council of Chalcedon "Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod, together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, has stripped him [Dioscorus] of … read more »
Response:
And additionally, the word rock in Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke), is Kepha, which literally means Rock. We can see this also in the fact that in the french language the word pierre, is also the name for Peter. Also, 1 Tim 3:15 says the the "Church is the pillar and foundation of truth" and Ephesians 2:20 states that the church was "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Matthew 16:18 is misinterpreted by the Catholic Church. Jesus had just asked Peter who He (Jesus) was, and Peter replied, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Then Jesus said to Peter: "And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (Petros, meaning a little pebble or moveable stone). And upon this rock (Petra, huge boulder or bedrock) I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt 16:16,18) Jesus used a play on words; in essence He was saying, Peter, you are a pebble, but upon this bedrock foundation I will build My church. The bedrock foundation is Peter’s statement that he made, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. In I Corinthians 3:11 it says, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. The true church is founded upon Jesus Christ the Rock; not Peter the pebble. Psalms 18:31 For who is God except the Lord? or who is a rock except our God? Before you buy.
Response:
And additionally, the word rock in Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke), is Kepha, which literally means Rock. We can see this also in the fact that in the french language the word pierre, is also the name for Peter. Also, 1 Tim 3:15 says the the "Church is the pillar and foundation of truth" and Ephesians 2:20 states that the church was "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets".
Why don’t you finish the verse? Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;… This is what it says in the King James Bible. If you have a Bible that is missing the part about Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone, then your Bible has been tampered with. It might be translated from the corrupted Alexandrian text; all catholic Bibles are. The Alexandrian text had verses deliberately removed by non Christian philosophers in Alexandria in the 3rd century. Look in the front of your Bible and see if it is translated from the corrupted Alexandrian text.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Matthew 16:18 is misinterpreted by the Catholic Church. Jesus had just asked Peter who He (Jesus) was, and Peter replied, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Then Jesus said to Peter: "And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (Petros, meaning a little pebble or moveable stone). And upon this rock (Petra, huge boulder or bedrock) I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt 16:16,18) Jesus used a play on words; in essence He was saying, Peter, you are a pebble, but upon this bedrock foundation I will build My church. The bedrock foundation is Peter’s statement that he made, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. In I Corinthians 3:11 it says, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. The true church is founded upon Jesus Christ the Rock; not Peter the pebble. Psalms 18:31 For who is God except the Lord? or who is a rock except our God? Before you buy.
Before you buy.
Response:
Matthew 16:18 is misinterpreted by the Catholic Church. Jesus had just asked Peter who He (Jesus) was, and Peter replied, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Then Jesus said to Peter: "And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (Petros, meaning a little pebble or moveable stone). And upon this rock (Petra, huge boulder or bedrock) I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
In Aramaic the word kepha has the same ending wether it refers to a rock or is used as a man,s name. The SAME as in English! In Greek, though the word rock, petra, is feminine gender. The translator could use it for the second appearance of kepha, but not the first in Matt 16:18, because it would be inappropriate to give a man a feminine name in Greek. So he put a masculine ending on it "Petros" which happens to be a pre-existing Greek word for small stone. My point is that in the translation from Aramaic to Greek to English of the original word "kepha" it became "lithos" or "small stone" but if you translate the word kepha direct from Aramaic to English the real meaning stay,s the same it becomes "Rock" In English, as in Aramaic, there is no problem with word endings or feminine gender. Note: "lithos" is the Greek word for "small stone" (Matt 16:16,18) Jesus used a play on words; in essence He was saying, Peter, you are a pebble, but upon this bedrock foundation I will build My church. The bedrock foundation is Peter’s statement that he made, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. In I Corinthians 3:11 it says, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. The true church is founded upon Jesus Christ the Rock; not Peter the pebble.
And if I might add: John 1:42: He brought him(talking of St Peter)to Jesus who looked at him and said, "You are Simon, son of John; your name shall be Cepha (which is rendered Peter)" From the New American Bible and in Matthew 16:18-19: "Thou art <Cepha, and upon this <cepha I will build my Church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I well intrust to you the keys of the heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven" Aramaic English Kepha Rock(Peter) kepha rock "Cephas" is the Greek transliteration of the Aramaic word "Kepha" When you read both verse’s completely it show’s Jesus has to be talking about Saint Peter and not himself when he says "Thou art <Cepha, and upon this <cepha I will build my Church,……I well intrust to you(Peter)the Jesus would not be giving himself the "keys of the heaven" in as much as he already had them. Saint Paul bears witness to this in his letters: Gal 1:18 Three years after that I went up to Jerusalem to get to know Cephas, with whom I stayed fifteen days. Gal 2:9 … those who were the acknowledged pillars, James, Cephas, and John, gave Barnabas and me the handclasp of fellowship … Gal 2:11 When Cephas came to Antioch I directly withstood him … Gal 2:14 … I had this to say to Cephas in the presence of all … 1 Cor 1:12 One of you will say, "I belong to Paul, " … another "Cephas has my allegiance," … 1 Cor 3:22 All things are yours, whether it be Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas 1 Cor 9:5 Have we not power to carry about a woman, a sister, as well as the rest the apostles and the brethen of the Lord and Cephas? As I have posted before Fundamentalist ideologues have one hard and fast rule: never, ever concede a single point to a Catholic, no matter how small the point. It is not out of sheer stubbornness that they adhere to this rule. Rather, they do so because they realize that if they concede even the most insignificant point, a chain reaction may occur which can knock down their entire theological house of cards. They are terrified of an Aramaic Matthew for a very elementary reason: If he wrote his Gospel in that tongue, then it would be that much more difficult to assert, as they do, that Christ was referring back to himself (or to Peter’s faith), and not to Peter himself when He said, "Upon this rock…". (Chap 16:18) Here’s why: The Aramaic language is not inflected for gender.Therefore, the word "kepha" can used both for a rock, and for a masculine name without having to make any orthographic changes, as had to be done when Matthew’s Gospel was translated into Greek. And from their erroneous premise that Peter is not the rock, they proceed to fabricate an entire bogus theology which clings to a whole host of spurious ideas: he had no primacy; there are no successors to Peter; there is no hierarchical Church organization; there is no Spirit-guided Papacy or college of bishops, etc. etc. With no hierarchy and no central authority, fundamentalists are free to make up all manner of religious "dogmas" of their own, such as "sola scriptura", "sola fide", plus an agenda-based interpretation of Scripture that fits their own peculiar doctrinal needs. Jim Carew sfo
Response:
While Peter was a leader of the disciples and of the early Church, all the apostles were empowered with Christ’s authority. Furthermore, Peter wasn’t a leader over the others but a leader among them, as seen at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), where elders, or presbyters, met with the apostles together as equals. Papal claims in later centuries must not be confused with the NT witness regarding Peter, nor should the role of Peter be minimized in opposition to those claims.
Response:
While Peter was a leader of the disciples and of the early Church, all the apostles were empowered with Christ’s authority. Furthermore, Peter wasn’t a leader over the others but a leader among them, as seen at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), where elders, or presbyters, met with the apostles together as equals.
Gonna disagree with you. Once Peter had spoken, the debate ended. Peter was clearly the one in charge. Same thing occurs today. The bishops debate…but the Pope has final say. Peace, Bruce "Logically, Protestants should not quote the Bible at all, for they have no way of determining which books are inspired- unless, of course, they accept the teaching authority of the Catholic Church."
Response:
It is there in the Bible-The Book of Revelation 21.14: "And the walls of the city had twelve foundations,and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb".Jesus was teaching about other sheeps,so he had two sheepfolds: one-Jewish believers and the other-Pagan believers in Christ.The Apostle Peter was to be a shepherd of the former (he was on the Jewish side in building the church).He said that Jesus is the Son of God by God’s power.And Jesus replied to him that on such a bedrock statement which covers God’s inspiration and the work of Peter Christ will build the Jewish church.The other (Christian pagan ) churches will have the other apostles (11) prescribed to them;and so we have 12 foundations which all rest on the main foundation which is Jesus Christ,the Son of the Living God !!!( All twelve recognized and professed Jesus Christ as the Son of the living God in their lives.No one else beside the 12 Apostles can lay a claim to be a foundation of Christ’s church !!! We don’t need even go into the linguistic meaning of the words: petra,petros or something else.Just looking at the context and searching for other related Scriptures are sufficient to find the Truth of the Bible and even an uneducted people should do that! — Free audio & video emails, greeting cards and forums Talkway – http://www.talkway.com – Talk more ways (sm)
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Matthew 16:18 is misinterpreted by the Catholic Church. Jesus had just asked Peter who He (Jesus) was, and Peter replied, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Then Jesus said to Peter: "And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (Petros, meaning a little pebble or moveable stone). And upon this rock (Petra, huge boulder or bedrock) I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt 16:16,18) Jesus used a play on words; in essence He was saying, Peter, you are a pebble, but upon this bedrock foundation I will build My church. The bedrock foundation is Peter’s statement that he made, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. In I Corinthians 3:11 it says, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. The true church is founded upon Jesus Christ the Rock; not Peter the pebble. Psalms 18:31 For who is God except the Lord? or who is a rock except our God?
What a crock. Alan
Response:
Matthew 16:18 is misinterpreted by the Catholic Church.
It is correctly interperted by the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth, the Catholic Church. It appears that you have mininterperted it, blinded by your own desire to see what you wanted to see. First of all the Greek text of the Gospels is a translation of what Jesus said, because Jesus spoke aramaic. Thus Jesus called Siemon Kephas which means rock. Not big rock, little rock, rock. In greek rock is petras. Petras, by the way, is a feminine word. Gender in words was important back then, and in some languages still is today. OK, you write the Gospel. Jesus called Siemon Kephas, which in Greek is a feminine word. You don’t call a man by a feminine name, especially when that is not the intent. So you masculine the feminine name. Petras becomes Petros. Ms. Rock now is more appropiately Mr. Rock. Note Paul referrs to Peter as Kephas on at least one occasion. — Peace & Good! Christopher Beattie SFO KOC, SPEBSQSA, et.al. Before you buy.
Response:
Bruce wrote While Peter was a leader of the disciples and of the early Church, all the apostles were empowered with Christ’s authority. Furthermore, Peter wasn’t a leader over the others but a leader among them, as seen at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), where elders, or presbyters, met with the apostles together as equals.
You can’t place any credibility in a stretched misinterpretation of a couple of snippets of scripture in the face of the overwhelming assertion by the Church for 12 centuries that the chair of Peter was the seat of authority in the Catholic Church. We might all fight together in a war and show equal valor, but that doesn’t mean we’re all 5 star generals. BAM
Response:
While Peter was a leader of the disciples and of the early Church, all the apostles were empowered with Christ’s authority. Furthermore, Peter wasn’t a leader over the others but a leader among them, as seen at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), where elders, or presbyters, met with the apostles together as equals. Papal claims in later centuries must not be confused with the NT witness regarding Peter, nor should the role of Peter be minimized in opposition to those claims.
Are you saying that there were 13 popes at one time? — Psalm 109:1 Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise; 2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of deceit have they opened against me: They have spoken unto me with a lying tongue. 3 They have compassed me about also with words of hatred, And fought against me without a cause. 4 For my love they are my adversaries: But I give myself unto prayer. 5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, And hatred for my love.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bruce wrote While Peter was a leader of the disciples and of the early Church, all the apostles were empowered with Christ’s authority. Furthermore, Peter wasn’t a leader over the others but a leader among them, as seen at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), where elders, or presbyters, met with the apostles together as equals. You can’t place any credibility in a stretched misinterpretation of a couple of snippets of scripture in the face of the overwhelming assertion by the Church for 12 centuries that the chair of Peter was the seat of authority in the Catholic Church. We might all fight together in a war and show equal valor, but that doesn’t mean we’re all 5 star generals. BAM
I didn’t write that Bam. I believe Peter was the 1st Pope. Your preaching to the choir. Peace, Bruce "Logically, Protestants should not quote the Bible at all, for they have no way of determining which books are inspired- unless, of course, they accept the teaching authority of the Catholic Church."
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You can’t place any credibility in a stretched misinterpretation of a couple of snippets of scripture in the face of the overwhelming assertion by the Church for 12 centuries that the chair of Peter was the seat of authority in the Catholic Church.
Only 12 centuries? Why not 20? Rome was the center of authority in the Roman Empire. It was to be expected then that the head of the Church in Rome would be regarded as the head of the Church. Learned scholars debate whether we have any reliable evidence that Peter was the head of the Church in Rome – another interesting point. Jerusalem, apparently, was out because of the dispersal of the Jews by the Romans. student
Response:
While Peter was a leader of the disciples and of the early Church, all the apostles were empowered with Christ’s authority. Furthermore, Peter wasn’t a leader over the others but a leader among them, as seen at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), where elders, or presbyters, met with the apostles together as equals. Papal claims in later centuries must not be confused with the NT witness regarding Peter, nor should the role of Peter be minimized in opposition to those claims. Are you saying that there were 13 popes at one time?
I’d say it would be more likely to assert that there was no one dictator, i.e. pope, as we have now. student
Response:
student wrote You can’t place any credibility in a stretched misinterpretation of a couple of snippets of scripture in the face of the overwhelming assertion by the Church for 12 centuries that the chair of Peter was the seat of authority in the Catholic Church.
I was being charitable to the Orthodox. What I meant was, that it was never even challenged. BAM
Response:
student wrote I’d say it would be more likely to assert that there was no one dictator, i.e. pope, as we have now.
Why on earth would you use the word "dictator"? Wasn’t he elected by the college of cardinals? Do you think he WANTED the job? BAM
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While Peter was a leader of the disciples and of the early Church, all the apostles were empowered with Christ’s authority. Furthermore, Peter wasn’t a leader over the others but a leader among them, as seen at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), where elders, or presbyters, met with the apostles together as equals. Papal claims in later centuries must not be confused with the NT witness regarding Peter, nor should the role of Peter be minimized in opposition to those claims. Are you saying that there were 13 popes at one time? I’d say it would be more likely to assert that there was no one dictator, i.e. pope, as we have now.
Correct. student
– Psalm 109:1 Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise; 2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of deceit have they opened against me: They have spoken unto me with a lying tongue. 3 They have compassed me about also with words of hatred, And fought against me without a cause. 4 For my love they are my adversaries: But I give myself unto prayer. 5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, And hatred for my love.
Response:
Gonna disagree with you. The scriptures tend to show that James the Lord’s half brother had the final say. Acts 15:5-21, In this verse the argument did not end until James gave his opinion, although in this instance he agreed with Peter. When Peter was freed from prison by the angel, he told someone to go and show this to James and the brethren, indicating that James had a high position. (Acts 12:17) The Apostle Paul confronted Peter about something because Peter had made an error, and done the wrong thing. (Galatians 2:11-14) In this instance Paul’s opinion mattered more than Peter’s opinion. When Paul returned to Jerusalem, it says that he, and the people with him, went to see James, and all the elders were present. (Acts 21:18) This verse also shows that James had the high poition, and he presided with the elders. Protestant churches believe that the scriptures show that James the Lord’s half brother was given the leadership role, and his opinion was the most important at the time. The Jews put a lot of importance on geneology, and James may have been held in high regard because he was such a close relative of Jesus. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While Peter was a leader of the disciples and of the early Church, all the apostles were empowered with Christ’s authority. Furthermore, Peter wasn’t a leader over the others but a leader among them, as seen at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), where elders, or presbyters, met with the apostles together as equals. Gonna disagree with you. Once Peter had spoken, the debate ended. Peter was clearly the one in charge. Same thing occurs today. The bishops debate…but the Pope has final say. Peace, Bruce "Logically, Protestants should not quote the Bible at all, for they have no way of determining which books are inspired- unless, of course, they accept the teaching authority of the Catholic Church."
Before you buy.
Response:
OK, ghost. So you are saying that James was in charge of the Church? Fine. So you agree that Jesus Christ meant for one to be in charge. Do you assert that once James died, that all authority would be disbanded? BAM – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gonna disagree with you. The scriptures tend to show that James the Lord’s half brother had the final say. Acts 15:5-21, In this verse the argument did not end until James gave his opinion, although in this instance he agreed with Peter. When Peter was freed from prison by the angel, he told someone to go and show this to James and the brethren, indicating that James had a high position. (Acts 12:17) The Apostle Paul confronted Peter about something because Peter had made an error, and done the wrong thing. (Galatians 2:11-14) In this instance Paul’s opinion mattered more than Peter’s opinion. When Paul returned to Jerusalem, it says that he, and the people with him, went to see James, and all the elders were present. (Acts 21:18) This verse also shows that James had the high poition, and he presided with the elders. Protestant churches believe that the scriptures show that James the Lord’s half brother was given the leadership role, and his opinion was the most important at the time. The Jews put a lot of importance on geneology, and James may have been held in high regard because he was such a close relative of Jesus. While Peter was a leader of the disciples and of the early Church, all the apostles were empowered with Christ’s authority. Furthermore, Peter wasn’t a leader over the others but a leader among them, as seen at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), where elders, or presbyters, met with the apostles together as equals. Gonna disagree with you. Once Peter had spoken, the debate ended. Peter was clearly the one in charge. Same thing occurs today. The bishops debate…but the Pope has final say. Peace, Bruce "Logically, Protestants should not quote the Bible at all, for they have no way of determining which books are inspired- unless, of course, they accept the teaching authority of the Catholic Church." Before you buy.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And additionally, the word rock in Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke), is Kepha, which literally means Rock. We can see this also in the fact that in the french language the word pierre, is also the name for Peter. Also, 1 Tim 3:15 says the the "Church is the pillar and foundation of truth" and Ephesians 2:20 states that the church was "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets". Why don’t you finish the verse? Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;… This is what it says in the King James Bible. If you have a Bible that is missing the part about Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone, then your Bible has been tampered with. It might be translated from the corrupted Alexandrian text; all catholic Bibles are. The Alexandrian text had verses deliberately removed by non Christian philosophers in Alexandria in the 3rd century. Look in the front of your Bible and see if it is translated from the corrupted Alexandrian text.
Nope, mine also has the bit about Jesus Christ being the corner stone. But the verse shows that the church needs the foundation of the apostles and prophets. But of course, the underpinning of all this is Jesus Christ, without whom a Church is impossible. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Matthew 16:18 is misinterpreted by the Catholic Church. Jesus had just asked Peter who He (Jesus) was, and Peter replied, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Then Jesus said to Peter: "And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (Petros, meaning a little pebble or moveable stone). And upon this rock (Petra, huge boulder or bedrock) I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt 16:16,18) Jesus used a play on words; in essence He was saying, Peter, you are a pebble, but upon this bedrock foundation I will build My church. The bedrock foundation is Peter’s statement that he made, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. In I Corinthians 3:11 it says, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. The true church is founded upon Jesus Christ the Rock; not Peter the pebble. Psalms 18:31 For who is God except the Lord? or who is a rock except our God? Before you buy. Before you buy.
Response:
Well, Acts 15, Peter was the one who spoke up about allowing the Gentiles in as he was given a special revelation from God in a dream about it. And you know what happened when he stated this? "Everybody was silent".
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -While Peter was a leader of the disciples and of the early Church, all the apostles were empowered with Christ’s authority. Furthermore, Peter wasn’t a leader over the others but a leader among them, as seen at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), where elders, or presbyters, met with the apostles together as equals. Papal claims in later centuries must not be confused with the NT witness regarding Peter, nor should the role of Peter be minimized in opposition to those claims.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Matthew 16:18 is misinterpreted by the Catholic Church. Jesus had just asked Peter who He (Jesus) was, and Peter replied, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Then Jesus said to Peter: "And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (Petros, meaning a little pebble or moveable stone). And upon this rock (Petra, huge boulder or bedrock) I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." In Aramaic the word kepha has the same ending wether it refers to a rock or is used as a man,s name. The SAME as in English! In Greek, though the word rock, petra, is feminine gender. The translator could use it for the second appearance of kepha, but not the first in Matt 16:18, because it would be inappropriate to give a man a feminine name in Greek. So he put a masculine ending on it "Petros" which happens to be a pre-existing Greek word for small stone. My point is that in the translation from Aramaic to Greek to English of the original word "kepha" it became "lithos" or "small stone" but if you translate the word kepha direct from Aramaic to English the real meaning stay,s the same it becomes "Rock" In English, as in Aramaic, there is no problem with word endings or feminine gender. Note: "lithos" is the Greek word for "small stone"
James Akin has pointed out that the "petros"/"petra" distinction had effectively disappeared by the 1st Century AD, and the two words were, in fact, synonyms in the Greek of the time. You can find this information at http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q061.htm –Chris Allen #include <disclaimer.h Before you buy.
Response:
How about the Councils? There were twelve apostles which Christ built the Church on. The Church is to be led through the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from God the Father, who is worshiped together with the Son. Was the pope the only one to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Absolutely not! There were other patriarchs, which is the same as pope. The infallablility of the Eccumenical Councils as a whole is more like it, not a single man. There was one Church until 1054, when the heresy of the Romans with there additions to the creed and there role as dictator caused the split. The head bishop of the Roman Church doesn’t have superior authority over the entire Church, the decisions of the Councils do. That is why there have been so many splits on the Catholic side of Christianity, the additions to the Doctrine of Christ by one man whom you call the pope. Why is that no other denominations have come out of the Orthodox Church? Is it because Christ was correct in His prophecy that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it? There are over 23,000 denominaions of so-called Christian Churches today, all of them having roots to the Roman Catholic Church. If it is so true to Christ and His teachings, why is it the one that seperated itself, and why are all the other Churches linked to it through their seperation? Not one has split from the Orthodox except the Roman Catholic Church, which created two. Why have so many come from your side now? Is it not clear in the Scriptures that one man is not above all others? There is nothing to support your claims of papal infallablity. Only the leaders of the Church as a whole, guided by the Holy Spirit, are infallable. It is those who make up the Councils and preserve Christ’s Church as it was created.
Response:
There are over 23,000 denominaions of so-called Christian Churches today, all of them having roots to the Roman Catholic Church.
Amen. — Psalm 109:1 Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise; 2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of deceit have they opened against me: They have spoken unto me with a lying tongue. 3 They have compassed me about also with words of hatred, And fought against me without a cause. 4 For my love they are my adversaries: But I give myself unto prayer. 5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, And hatred for my love.
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