Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

The teachings of the early Church is unequivical in its condemnation of abortion! Here’s the proof:

(Quotes snipped) So, the Church hasn’t made up new things, but rather continues to teach what it has taught all along.

Not so. There’s a big difference between private thoughts and writings, and the official teaching of the Church as embodied in Papal rulings and Canon law. Here are a few quotes I posted before. You must have missed them. – From the "World Book" encyclopedia (1992) "Abortion" article       During the late Middle Ages, abortion before "quickening"     became a generaly accepted practice in Europe. Quickening     is the time when the mother first feels the fetus moving     inside her. Before the 1800’s there were few organized     religious or legal obstacles to abortion prior to quickening.     In the United States, abortion before quickening was not an     offence under common law before the 1800’s.       Until the late 1800’s the Roman Catholic church had no     established doctrine against abortion before animaton. Catholic     theologians defined animation as the point at which a fetus became     human – between 40 and 80 days after conception. But in 1869, the     church proclaimed that abortion is never justifiable. – From "The Encyclopedia Americana, International Edition" (1991)   "Abortion" article       Early church doctrine considered aboriton as murder only     after the point at which the rational soul became instilled or     "animated," usually said to be 40 days after conception. This     doctrine held sway until 1588, when it was abrogated by Pope     Sixtus V. From then on, despite some subsequent fulctuations     in church doctrine, the overall trend within the Roman Catholic     Church has been towards the present position that the fetus is     infused with a soul from the time of conception and therefore     any termination of pregnancy violates the sanctity of life. – From "Eunuchs For the Kingdom of Heaven" (Doubleday, 1990)   by Uta Ranke-Heinemann.       . . . the Church’s code assumed the theory of successive     animation of the fetus and penalized as murder, not contraception,     but only the abortion of an animated fetus. Gratian and Peter     Lombard held the same position. A letter from Pope Innocent III     (d. 1216) shows that only abortion and then only after a certain     point in time (ca. eighty days) was considered murder. The case     at issue involved a Carthusian monk who had arranged for his lover     to get an abortion. The Pope decided that the monk was not guilty     of homicide, provided the embryo was not yet "animated," in the     sense of Aristolelian biology. (p. 211) and       From the end of the nineteenth century onward belief that     animation occurred at the very moment of conception (simultaneous     animation) won the day . . . Up till the end of the nineteenth     century the doctrine of successive animation had prevailed in     theology. . . . Only the abortion of an animate fetus was punished     with excommunication. . . .  Excommunication now applies to     abortion from the first moment of pregnancy. The distinction     between the ‘fetus inanimatus’ and the ‘fetus animatus’ was     dropped by Pius IX in 1869. The code of canon law, as revised     in 1917 and 1983, speaks only of ‘the fetus’. (p. 304-5) Art

Response:

D’Adamo) writes: Oh, the World Book Encyclopedia, now there’s a reliable Christian publication. Funny how they can say the Church had no ‘teaching’ on this issue where I just posted a bunch of ‘pre-middle ages’ writings that disprove that.

The writings do not prove that. As I said, there is a difference between the writings and thoughts of Christians, and the official

position of the Church.   Gee, then the writings of Jefferson means nothing as to what America believes?  The writings of Virgil and Cicero means nothing as to what ancient Rome believed?   Get with it, if it was written down, it was believed.  Pax Christi, Pat "Adoramus Te, Christe, et benedicimus Tibi.  Quia per sanctam crucen Tuam mundum." "We adore Thee, Christ, and we bless Thee.  Because by Thy holy cross Thou hast redeemed the world."

Response:

Oh, the World Book Encyclopedia, now there’s a reliable Christian publication. Funny how they can say the Church had no ‘teaching’ on this issue where I just posted a bunch of ‘pre-middle ages’ writings that disprove that.

The writings do not prove that. As I said, there is a difference between the writings and thoughts of Christians, and the official position of the Church. The point isn’t hard to understand, but here’s a simple illustration anyway. Suppose I could find that a lot of Christians, both past and present, who wrote that Jesus has blue eyes. (I said is was a simple illustration.)  Would that make that belief an official belief of the Church? Of course not. If you believe the CHURCH (as opposed to private individuals) believed and taught something, then show the writings of Church councils, or Papal declarations, or something similar. Art

Response:

D’Adamo) writes: The teachings of the early Church is unequivical in its condemnation of abortion! Here’s the proof:

(Quotes snipped) So, the Church hasn’t made up new things, but rather continues to teach what it has taught all along.

Not so. There’s a big difference between private thoughts and

writings, and the official teaching of the Church as embodied in Papal rulings and Canon law. Here are a few quotes I posted

before. You must have missed them.

- From the "World Book" encyclopedia (1992) "Abortion" article Oh, the World Book Encyclopedia, now there’s a reliable Christian publication. Funny how they can say the Church had no ‘teaching’ on this issue where I just posted a bunch of ‘pre-middle ages’ writings that disprove that.   Sorry.  The only people who advocated abortion and birth control in the Early Church were gnostics and other heretics.  Pax Christi, Pat "For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine, but, following their own desires, will surround themselves with teachers who tickle their ears."  (1 Tim. 4:3)

Response:

  Many claim that the Church’s teaching against abortion and bitrh control is a ‘new’ innovation and that nothing has ever been said before in their regard.   But again, is it the truth? "the BEGGAR KING Homepage: Abortion + (http://webusers.anet-stl.com/~nosmo/index.html) IS ABORTION WRONG? What did the early Christians say? Abortion is a "hot" topic in our society. Despite the fact that the Church’s witness against the evil of abortion has been constant through the centuries, it is often presented in the media as a NEW teaching. Some have made claims that the fathers of the early church (and Scripture) were silent on the subject. Nothing could be further from the truth. The teachings of the early Church is unequivical in its condemnation of abortion! Here’s the proof: The DIDACHE (first century) "You shall not slay the child by abortions." (Didache 2:2) BARNABAS (early second century) "Never do away with an unborn child, or destroy it after its birth." (Epistle of Barnabas, chap. 19) HIPPOLYTUS OF ROME (170-236 AD) "Women who were reputed to be believers began to take drugs … to expel what was conceived, since they did not want to have a child. See then what great impiety that lawless one [Emperor Callistus] has fallen to, by teaching both adultery and murder at the same time." ATHENAGORAS OF ATHENS (ca. 177 AD) "What reason would we have to commit murder when we even say that women who induce abortions are murderers, and will have to give account of it to God? For the same person would not regard the fetus in the womb as a living thing and therefore an object of God’s care, and at the same time slay it, once it had come to life." (A Plea Regarding Christians, chapter 35) TERTULLIAN (ca. 223 AD) "We acknowledge, therefore, that life begins with conception, because we contend that the soul begins at conception. Life begins when the soul begins." CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (223 AD) "Those who use abortifacients commit homicide." JOHN CHRYSOSTOM (345-407 AD) "Where there is murder before birth, you do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make of her a murderess as well." AUGUSTINE of HIPPO (354-430 AD) "Sometimes their sadistic licentiousness goes so far…they find one means or another to destroy the unborn and flush it from the mother’s womb." (The City of God, Book One, Chapter 16) BASIL THE GREAT (379 AD) "The woman who purposely destroys her unborn child is guilty of murder. The hair-splitting difference between formed and unformed makes no difference to us."   Pretty serious.  So, the Church hasn’t made up new things, but rather continues to teach what it has taught all along.  Pax Christi, Pat "For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine, but, following their own desires, will surround themselves with teachers who tickle their ears."  (1 Tim. 4:3)

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