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Ecumenicism is not Relativitism. It is not a statement that "everyone is right." It is the affirmation of the common things that we hold together in faith, each side working to make sure the differences fall in their favor, but each side adament on their own view of the differences.
I think this is a very good description of ecumenicism. I probably would be one of those whom Jason finds so distasteful – an ecumenical Evangelical. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a solid theology – I just choose to not argue about those issues that I don’t consider "central," i.e., the cross is central. Mary, in my mind, is not, and so I avoid the threads about her. Issues like salvation through faith vs. works, when you really look closely at the REALITY (not just the rhetoric) of our different traditions, we really don’t disagree as much as our dogmas might make one think that we do. We Evangelicals claim that we are saved by grace through faith alone. However, no Evangalical tradition would teach that one who is saved would continue to live the life of a "sinner." The things that one "does" is different, and we DO use that as an evaluation of someone’s salvation, whether we admit it or not. — Peace & Good! Christopher Beattie SFO KOC, SPEBSQSA, et.al.
robys — http://web.a-znet.com/roby/ He holds the world, yet He holds onto my hand…
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+ I think a lot of trolls may be explained by all this. On the other hand, and risking being attacked by fellow Catholics, I think it can be dangerous to become obsessed with feeding the troll. At a certain point one should say "enough is enough" and not let these people drag you into a state of unhealthy anger and frustration. – Dan.
. Dear Dan, very sound advice for those with no stomach for the truth. . the one who explains not the trolls: textman ; X
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -[] The inferiority complex, masks his fears by taking the superior role. He convinces himself "The reason I have no friends is because no one understands me – I am cursed with being much more intelligent than they are – so no one likes me". Therefore, he sees himself as a guiding father… and that his children can not do much of anything right without him. He needs to guide them, even as they reject him. They believe they see the big picture at a higher level than anyone else because they are so much more intelligent than anyone else. In a way – they see their condition as a prophetic role: God has blessed them (higher intelligence) and cursed them (can not make or keep friends because of the ‘gift’). As regards the sado-masochist consideration… In public they take the dominant role. They are obsessed to find fault in others. They like pulling the wings off flies to try to force the answer to life and their empty and lonely condition. Often, they place themselves as the mouth piece of God and pronounce disaster and destruction on the ignorant people (an un-God like action). On the other side of the coin, a person like this is very masochochistic in the privacy of their own lives. The destruction they pronounce as coming to others – they already feel. It is a live by the sword – die by the sword thing. A what ever you think gives you power to use over others by necessity has that same power over yourself. Something like that.
These are fairly interesting theories… I think a lot of trolls may be explained by all this. On the other hand, and risking being attacked by fellow Catholics, I think it can be dangerous to become obsessed with feeding the troll. At a certain point one should say "enough is enough" and not let these people drag you into a state of unhealthy anger and frustration. Dan.
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So what’s the fascination? Why spend so much time here? Maybe you’re a closet wannabe Catholic.
Yes, you have something there. He is obsessed for sure. He can not let go of the object he hates. Eric Fromm writes a wonderful outline of this type of personality. The sado-masochist The inferiority complex. The inferiority complex, masks his fears by taking the superior role. He convinces himself "The reason I have no friends is because no one understands me – I am cursed with being much more intelligent than they are – so no one likes me". Therefore, he sees himself as a guiding father… and that his children can not do much of anything right without him. He needs to guide them, even as they reject him. They believe they see the big picture at a higher level than anyone else because they are so much more intelligent than anyone else. In a way – they see their condition as a prophetic role: God has blessed them (higher intelligence) and cursed them (can not make or keep friends because of the ‘gift’). As regards the sado-masochist consideration… In public they take the dominant role. They are obsessed to find fault in others. They like pulling the wings off flies to try to force the answer to life and their empty and lonely condition. Often, they place themselves as the mouth piece of God and pronounce disaster and destruction on the ignorant people (an un-God like action). On the other side of the coin, a person like this is very masochochistic in the privacy of their own lives. The destruction they pronounce as coming to others – they already feel. It is a live by the sword – die by the sword thing. A what ever you think gives you power to use over others by necessity has that same power over yourself. Something like that. -ray
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It would be difficult to imagine how Protestant evangelicals who "oppose" Catholicism could be regarded as ecumenical. You’re responding to an argument I didn’t make. I didn’t call myself an ecumenist, and I wouldn’t want to, as far as the term is commonly perceived today. It’s usually associated with compromise and with not having much concern for doctrine. Some ecumenists will show some concern on issues such as the deity of Christ and the resurrection, but they don’t show much concern on other issues, such as the gospel (Galatians 1:8-9). According to modern ecumenism, it doesn’t matter much whether you believe in salvation through faith alone or salvation through works. All that matters is that you "love Jesus", "live out your faith", etc. I disagree with that, so I don’t want to be associated with ecumenism as it’s commonly perceived today. The intent of my post wasn’t to complain that the RCC isn’t as ecumenical as I am. The intent was to show the inconsistency of ecumenical Catholics who complain that their opponents aren’t ecumenical enough. As long as the RCC is forbidding evangelicals to participate in its communion, and is issuing dozens of anathemas against those evangelicals, it’s inconsistent for Catholics to complain that some evangelicals aren’t ecumenical enough. If it’s acceptable for the RCC to anathematize just about anybody who disagrees with it on just about any issue, why is it unacceptable for people who disagree with the RCC to criticize it? Jason http://members.aol.com/jasonte
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They are kind of a strange group aren’t they!
So what’s the fascination? Why spend so much time here? Maybe you’re a closet wannabe Catholic. Aq.
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Catholics often complain that evangelicals who oppose Catholicism aren’t ecumenical enough.
It would be difficult to imagine how Protestant evangelicals who "oppose" Catholicism could be regarded as ecumenical. To be ecumenical one has to be open to the merits of another group with whom one doesn’t share every belief in common. Your recent assessment of other Christians is one of the most bizzare things that I’ve seen written in this newsgroup: "I think the RCC, along with liberal Protestant churches, Eastern Orthodox churches, etc., will be at the forefront of the Antichrist’s coming world religion". (JasonTE, Usenet post, 12/09/98) I suggest that before you complain about anathemas imposed by the Council of Trent, that you consider your own position outlined above. Aq.
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Catholics often complain that evangelicals who oppose Catholicism aren’t ecumenical enough. Yet, the RCC doesn’t allow evangelicals to participate in its communion services, and it’s issued dozens of anathemas against those
Jason… lurking here to beat up Catholics is a little girl sport, kind of like beating up a pillow. Your should be confronting Scientology.. which is based upon the writtings of Alister Crowely (the self proclaimed Anti-Christ). If you do that, they will threaten you, harass you, slander you and persecute you – and they really will. Go after the real thing. -ray
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They are kind of a strange group aren’t they!
You love ‘em. You can’t stay away from them. Like a stalker, you love them.
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They are kind of a strange group aren’t they!
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Catholics often complain that evangelicals who oppose Catholicism aren’t ecumenical enough. Yet, the RCC doesn’t allow evangelicals to participate in its communion services, and it’s issued dozens of anathemas against those evangelicals. Apparently, it’s acceptable for the RCC to condemn non-Catholics with dozens of anathemas, but it’s unacceptable for non-Catholics to criticize the RCC. Apparently, the Catholic definition of ecumenism is "not criticizing the RCC".
Jason, just what exactly are you babbling on about. Anyone can attend a Roman Catholic Mass. No one is "carded" at the door or asked his denomination. Yet the Mass is not a religious pep rally. It is a sacred liturgy which has sacred ministers who perform sacred functions. And only a validly ordained Roman Catholic priest can stand in for his bishop as presider of the Liturgy of Mass. Do Catholic refuse to show up at ecumenical prayer services? Not that I am aware of. Do they not host such servies? Not that I am aware of, my own local parish had a thanksgiving ecumenical service in November. But that is not the sacred liturgy of the Mass, a concept which is foreign and alien to most Evgangelicals. And the Church claims it has the authority to issue what is correct and what is not correct. Anathema’s are in the end statements of "if you believe this then you cannot be in the body of the Church, for the Church affirms that this is wrong belief." But Evangelicals are by their very nature NOT CATHOLIC so obviously there must be things upon which they disagree because otherwise they would be Catholic, not Evagelical. Ecumenicism is not Relativitism. It is not a statement that "everyone is right." It is the affirmation of the common things that we hold together in faith, each side working to make sure the differences fall in their favor, but each side adament on their own view of the differences. — Peace & Good! Christopher Beattie SFO KOC, SPEBSQSA, et.al.
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