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Sola Scriptura

Question:

Excuse me, but the sticking point is not "Scripture," but "ONLY Scripture." Show me where any of your citations say "ONLY."

Response:

The words Sola Scriptura are not in the Bible, but either are the words Trinity, Rapture or even Bible. But these doctrines are clearly taught in Scripture.

The point is that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not taught anywhere in scripture and did not even exist until the 16th century: 1. Protestants assert "All revealed truth is to be found in the inspired Scriptures." However, this is quite useless unless we know which books are meant by the "inspired Scriptures" since many different sects and religions have many different books which they call "inspired Scriptures." 2. The theory we are considering, when it talks of "inspired Scriptures," means in fact those 66 books which are bound and published in Protestant Bibles. (henceforth referred to as "the 66 books") 3. The statement of the theory we are examining thus becomes Proposition B: "All revealed truth is to be found in the 66 books." 4. It is a fact that nowhere in the 66 books themselves can we find any statements telling us which books make up the entire body of inspired Scripture. There is no complete list of inspired books anywhere within their own pages, nor can such a list be compiled by putting isolated verses together. This would be the case: (a) if you could find verses like "Esther is the Word of God," "This Gospel is inspired by God," "The Second Letter of Peter is inspired Scripture," etc., for all of the 66 books; and (b) if you could also find a Biblical passage stating that no books other than these 66 were to be held as inspired. Obviously, nobody could even pretend to find all this information about the canon of Scripture in the Bible itself. 5. It follows that Proposition B – the very foundation of all Protestant Christianity – is neither found in Scripture nor can be deduced from Scripture in any way. Since the 66 books are not even identified in Scripture, much less can any further information about them (e.g., that all revealed truth is contained in them) be found there. In short, it must be now affirmed in Proposition C: "Proposition B is an addition to the 66 books. " 6. It follows immediately from the truth of Proposition C that Proposition B cannot itself be revealed truth. To assert that it is would involve a self-contradictory statement: "All revealed truth is to be found in the 66 books, but this revealed truth itself is not found there." 7. Could it be the case that Proposition B is true, but is not revealed truth? If that is the case, then it must be either something which can be deduced from revealed truth or something which natural human reason alone can discover, without any help from revelation. The first possibility is ruled out because, as we saw in steps 4 and 5, B cannot be deduced from Scripture, and to postulate some other revealed extra- Scriptural premise from which B might be deduced would contradict B itself. The second possibility involves no self- contradiction, but it is factually preposterous, and is doubtful whether any Protestant has seriously tried to defend it – least of all those traditional Protestants who strongly emphasize the corruption of man’s natural intellectual powers as a result of the Fall. Human reason might well be able to conclude prudently and responsibly that an authority which itself claimed to possess the totality of revealed truth was in fact justified in making that claim, provided that this authority backed up the claim by some very striking evidence. (Catholics, in fact, believe that their Church is precisely such an authority.) But how could reason alone reach that same well-founded certitude about a collection of 66 books which do not even lay claim to what is attributed to them? (The point is reinforced when we remember that those who attribute the totality of revealed truth to the 66 books, namely Protestant Church members, are very ready to acknowledge their own fallibility – whether individually or collectively – in matters of religious doctrine. All Protestant Churches deny their own infallibility as much as they deny the Pope’s.) 8. Since Proposition B is not revealed truth, nor a truth which can be deduced from revelation, nor a naturally-knowable truth, it is not true at all. Therefore, the basic doctrine for which the Reformers fought, and which Protestants accept, is simply false — http://www.flash.net/~timothyc/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The words Sola Scriptura are not in the Bible, but either are the words Trinity, Rapture or even Bible. But these doctrines are clearly taught in Scripture. Show where the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is taught in the Bible. FIRST CITATION From the New American Bible for Catholics: Acts 17:10 The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas to Beroea during the night. Upon arrival they went into the synagogue of the Jews. Acts 17:11 These Jews were more fair-minded that those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all willingness and examined the scriptures daily to determine whether these things were so. From the Catholic Living Bible: Acts 17:10 That night the Christians hurried Paul and Silas to Beroea, and, as usual, they went to the synagogue to preach. Acts 17:11 But the people of Beroea were more open minded than those in Thessalonica, and gladly listened to the message. They searched the scriptures day by day to check up on Paul and Silas’ statements to see if they were really so. From the 1899 revised Douay Rheims: Acts 17:10 But the bretheren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea. when they were come thither, went into the synagogue of the Jews. Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so. From the King James: Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Please note that the word noble derives from the Greek word eugenes, which Strong’s defines as follows- 2104. eugenes, yoog-en’-ace; from G2095 and G1096; well born, i.e. (lit.) high in rank, or (fig.) generous:–more noble, nobleman. This is significant because it clearly is commending the Bereans over and above the Thessalonicans, because while they listened to Paul and Silas with an open mind, they still checked what they were told for accuracy by comparing it with the scriptures. They did not just accept what they were told by anyone. They used scripture as their only ruler for truth. The principle of Sola Scriptura is very firmly and clearly established in this text.

Wrong. They searched the OLD TESTAMENT to see whether Jesus was the one the OLD TESTAMENT foretold of as the Messiah, what Paul and Silas were talking about. Don’t add words to the Bible. It says they "searched the scriptures daily, whether THOSE THINGS were so". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is also worth noting, that when Paul preached in Thessalonica and Berea, he reasoned with the people out of the scriptures. From the King James: Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. Paul used the written word of God to prove that Jesus was indeed the prophesied Messiah the Jews were waiting for.

Right! That’s why the Boreans searched the OLD TESTAMENT, too! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Scripture was the guide by which anyone could judge for themselves if Jesus of Nazareth met the prophetic requirements completely. Because of the success Paul and Silas were having in converting Jew and Gentile alike to Christianity (vs. 4,12), unbelieving Jews caused an uproar that drove them out of both Thessalonica and Berea (vs. 5-10, 13-14). The unbelieving Jews apparently viewed these conversions as a threat to Judaism as they knew it. But without scripture to use for validating the Gospel of Jesus Christ as Messiah, Paul would not have been able to prove anything.

And none of this proves Sola Scriptura, by the way. There is a rather striking parallel here that bears mentioning: that being the similarity of Paul’s scripture-based ministry in Thessalonica and Berea, and the Sola Scriptura advocates, or Protestant reformers, that also dared to preach doctrine directly from the scriptures, an act which has historically stirred the wrath of the Catholic Church, and has generally resulted in persecution down through the centuries.

..because you add words to the Bible – faith ALONE saves, the Bible ALONE, etc. That’s NOT doctrine from the Scriptures, but unBiblical traditions of men. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SECOND CITATION From the New American Bible for Catholics: 2 Tim 3:15 And that from infancy you have known [the] sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. From the Catholic Living Bible: 2 Tim 3:15 You know how, when you were a small child, you were taught the holy Scriptures; and it is these that make you wise to accept God’s salvation by trusting in Jesus Christ. From the 1899 revised Douay Rheims: 2 Tim 3:15 And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus. From the King James: 2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. So according to Paul’s second letter to Timothy, scripture is sufficient to make you wise unto salvation.

Sorry, I don’t see the word "sufficient" here. Also, Paul is talking about the Old Testament ALONE. There was no New Testament, let alone a Christian Bible, at this time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – THIRD CITATION From the New American Bible for Catholics: Isa 8:19 And when they say to you, "Inquire of mediums and fortune-tellers (who chirp and mutter); should not a people inquire of their gods, apply to the dead on behalf of the living!"- Isa 8:20 then this document will furnish its instruction. That kind of thing they will surely say. From the Catholic Living Bible: Isa 8:19 So why are you trying to find out the future by consulting witches and mediums? Don’t listen to their whisperings and mutterings.Can the living find out the future from the dead? Why not ask your God? Isa 8:20 "Check these witches’ words against the Word of God!" he says if their messages are different than mine, it is because I have not sent them; for they have no light or truth in them. From the 1899 revised Douay Rheims: Isa 8:19 And when they shall say to you: Seek of pythons, and of diviners, who mutter in their enchantments; should not the people seek of their God, for the living of the dead? Isa 8:20 To the law rather, and to the testimony. And if they speak not according to this word, they shall not have the morning light. From the King James: Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. The words for law and testimony here mean the Word of God. The word law is torah and testimony is te’uwdah. Torah may mean either the Decalogue or the Pentateuch, and same can be true of te’uwdah. Isaiah uses both words together previously in chapter 8- From the King James: Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony (te’uwday), seal the law (torah) among my disciples. From the New American Bible for Catholics: Isa 8:16 The record is to be folded and the sealed instruction kept among my disciples. From the Catholic Living Bible: Isa 8:16 Write down all these things I am going to do, says the Lord, and seal it up for the future. Entrust it to some godly man to pass on down to godly men of future generations. From the 1899 revised Douay Rheims: Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. Clearly Isa 8:16 is speaking of the revealed Word of God written down and contained in the first five books of the Bible, the Torah, which includes the tablets of testimony, the Ten Commandments. So now return to Isa 8:20- To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. This then is saying that anyone who does not speak according to the written Word of God, if they are not in harmony with it, then there is no light in them. It again proclaims the authority of scripture and only scripture, to discern truth and light.

No…it … read more »

Response:

There is a clear warning here to those who would try and amend the word of God through additions. Isn’t this exactly what the ex-cathedra Roman Catholic doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary are?

Not at all. Those are recognitions of Divine truths, the word of God revealed through His Church. Aq Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Chapter and verse, please Sola Scriptura is not built on one verse! but many

It’s built on nothing but the disobedience of those who deny that the Church (not themselves, not their personal interpretation of the Bible, but the Church) is the "pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15). Aq Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Since the Church existed from the dawn of time, it could be argued that it was the conduit for all the works of Scripture. But the more immediate gift of the Church, as the vessel of the Holy Spirit, is the New Testament, whose contents were established by the Church of the early centuries. It is only through some extra-biblical source of divine authority (the Church) that one can state with confidence that the NT is inspired. Unfortunately for the sola scriptura believers, there is no way to avoid the inference from this fact that sola scriptura, which denies any such extra-biblical divine authority, is a logical fallacy. The true believer in a rigid doctrine of sola scriptura has no way of being sure that the NT books are inspired or of denying the claims of inspiration of the books of some other cult. In reality, I suspect that most who claim to follow sola scriptura know this, but cannot bring themselves to admit as much. It would require an immediate recognition of the need to belong to the Catholic Church. Aq Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

No … such dogmatic statements rest on the magisterial office of the Church, not on some fraudulent imposition on the Bible. It is rather ~you~ and your fellow fundie sectarians who ADD to the Bible by pretending that your traditions of men are in the Bible, when they are in fact not. Dave

Response:

Prov 30:5 Every word of God is tested; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Prov 30:6 Add nothing to his words, lest he reprove you, and you be exposed as a deceiver.

And what makes you think that "Word of God" in this verse means the 66 Books of the Protestant Bible?

Response:

The scriptures where here before the Church and the RCC. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, and all the rest of the Old Testament, the Apostles even used the Old Testament before the 27 books of the New Testament were ever written. It was God who gave us the scriptures, nice try, taking the credit for something your church never did. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How illogical: If one follows the doctrine of Sola Scriptura then one should find this somewhere in Scripture. Of course it’s not in there. Christ gave us the Church and the Church gave us the Scriptures. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Sola Scriptura is not built on one verse! but many

Well, then give me many verses. Surely you have some.

Response:

Absolutely. But where did the New Testament come from? And how do you know that it should be part of the Bible?

Response:

The words Sola Scriptura are not in the Bible, but either are the words Trinity, Rapture or even Bible. But these doctrines are clearly taught in Scripture. Show where the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is taught in the Bible. Sola Scriptura can be defined as the Protestant principle that the doctrines found in scripture are sufficient to salvation. That is to say, if a doctrine cannot be found within the covers of the 66 books of the Protestant Bible, then your salvation does not depend on it.

How do you know that those 66 books are the correct ones, and on what do you base the belief that if it isn’t in there, it isn’t necessary for salvation? Where does the Bible contain a list of which books are inspired? And where does the Bible say that it contains "all things necessary for salvation"?

Response:

FIFTH CITATION From the New American Bible for Catholics: Prov 30:5 Every word of God is tested; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Prov 30:6 Add nothing to his words, lest he reprove you, and you be exposed as a deceiver. From the Catholic Living Bible: Prov 30:5 Every word of God proves true. He defends all who come to him for protection. Prov 30:6 Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you, and you be found a liar. From the 1899 revised Douay Rheims: Prov 30:5 Every word of God is fire tried: he is a buckler to them that hope in him. Prov 30:6 Add not any thing to his words, lest thou be reproved, and found a liar: From the King James: Prov 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Prov 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. There is a clear warning here to those who would try and amend the word of God through additions. Isn’t this exactly what the ex-cathedra Roman Catholic doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary are? So by what standard do you know what the word of God is? What authority should be consulted to assure yourself that you are not adding to His word? Just exactly what is the word of God? SIXTH CITATION From the New American Bible for Catholics: John 10:35 If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, scripture cannot be set aside, From the 1899 revised Douay Rheims: John 10:35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God was spoken, and the scriptures cannot be broken; From the King James: John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; In this verse Jesus is quoting Psalm 82:6. (In context, the word for "gods" actually means judges.) Here the word of God and scripture are linked as one and the same. SEVENTH CITATION From the King James: Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. From the New American Bible for Catholics: Mat 7:24 Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on a rock. Mat 7:25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock. From the 1602 Geneva New Testament: Mat 7:24 Whosoever then heareth of me these words, and doeth the same, I will liken him to a wise man, which hath builded his house on a rock. Mat 7:25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house, and it fell not; for it was grounded upon a rock. From the 1899 revised Douay Rheims: Mat 7:24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock. Mat 7:25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. So, where can we turn to study and hear the words of Jesus, that we might do them and build our house on His solid rock foundation? Surely this truth is indeed found in scripture, the word of God. EIGHTH CITATION From the King James: 2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. From the 1899 revised Douay Rheims: 2 Tim 2:15 Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. Clearly Paul is saying here to study the scriptures, which he defines as the word of truth. But then, what Catholic would deny that scripture is the word of God? None of course… but they would reply that the written word is not the sole word of God. Catholic Tradition they would say, as declared by the church, has equal authority, as shown by the new Vatican Catechism- … two distinct modes of transmission #81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit." And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching. #82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the Holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence." But just where does scripture make this declaration? NINTH CITATION From the 1899 revised Douay Rheims: John 5:39 Search the scriptures, for you think in them to have life everlasting; and the same are they that give testimony of me. John 5:40 And you will not come to me that you may have life. John 5:46 For if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also; for he wrote of me. John 5:47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words? From the King James: John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? Here Jesus tells the Jews to study and search the scriptures, because they know that the way to eternal life can indeed be found there. That way to eternal life is revealed in scripture as Jesus Christ, the Messiah that the Jews had longed for. But the Jews did not even believe what Moses had written, and as a result repeatedly fell into apostasy. Jesus makes the point that if the Jews will not believe and obey what Moses had written in scripture, then how could they possibly believe the words spoken directly to them by the Christ that the scriptures reveal? Had the Jews properly understood and believed the scriptures, they would have recognized Jesus for who He was, the very Son of God. So this passage teaches that the written word of God is sufficient to reveal the way to eternal life, which is none other than Jesus Christ. It is as true today as it was the day it was written. TENTH CITATION From the King James: 1 Cor 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. From the 1899 revised Douay Rheims: 1 Cor 4:6 But these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollo, for your sakes; that in us you may learn, that one be not puffed up against the other for another, above that which is written. From the 1602 Geneva Bible’s New Testament: 1 Cor 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied unto mine own self and Apollos, for your sakes, that ye might learn by us, that no man presume above that which is written, that one swell not against another for any mans cause. From the 1534 Tyndale New Testament: 1 Cor 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have described in mine own person and Apollos, for your sakes, that ye might learn by us, that no man count of himself beyond that which is above written: that one swell not against another for any mans cause. From the Amplified Bible: 1 Cor 4:6 Now I have applied all this [about parties and factions] to myself and Apollos for your sakes, bretheren, so that from what I have said of us [as illustrations] you may learn [to think of men in accordance with Scripture and] not to go beyond that which is written; that none of you may be puffed up and inflated with pride and boast in favor of one [minister and teacher] against another. Paul in the opening chapters of 1 Corinthians is speaking against the factions that had developed in the Corinthian church. These factions were formed

Response:

How illogical: If one follows the doctrine of Sola Scriptura then one should find this somewhere in Scripture. Of course it’s not in there. Christ gave us the Church and the Church gave us the Scriptures. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

How illogical: If one follows the doctrine of Sola Scriptura then one should find this somewhere in Scripture. Of course it’s not in there.

Of course it is. We both know the words Sola Scriptura are not in the Bible, BUT either are the words Trinity, Rapture, or even Bible. But these doctrines are clearly taught in the Bible.

Response:

The words Sola Scriptura are not in the Bible, but either are the words Trinity, Rapture or even Bible. But these doctrines are clearly taught in Scripture.

Response:

How illogical: If one follows the doctrine of Sola Scriptura then one should find this somewhere in Scripture. Of course it’s not in there. Of course it is. We both know the words Sola Scriptura are not in the Bible, BUT either are the words Trinity, Rapture, or even Bible. But these doctrines are clearly taught in the Bible.

Many "quote" the Bible without giving references…because there aren’t any to the "bible alone" doctrine. We can both give many references that back up the Trinity and the Rapture…I believe them also. But there are not any Biblical exhortations to rely on Scripture alone. Instead, there is exhortation after exhortation (within the first 3 chapters of most books of the New Testament!) for the Members of the Body of Christ to avoid division and schism and to listen to the leader of the local church) Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Of course it is. We both know the words Sola Scriptura are not in the Bible, BUT either are the words Trinity, Rapture, or even Bible. But these doctrines are clearly taught in the Bible.

Chapter and verse, please

Response:

The words Sola Scriptura are not in the Bible, but either are the words Trinity, Rapture or even Bible. But these doctrines are clearly taught in Scripture.

Show where the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is taught in the Bible.

Response:

The words Sola Scriptura are not in the Bible, but either are the words Trinity, Rapture or even Bible. But these doctrines are clearly taught in Scripture.

Sola Scriptura is *not* taught in the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16 says scripture is "profitable", not "sufficient." Big difference. Food and drink are both "profitable" to sustain human life, but without air to breathe a person will die in minutes. Where does it say the Protestant Bible constitutes the totality of divine revelation? It doesn’t. 2 Thess. 2:15 says "stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether orally or by our epistle." If you really believe in the Bible, you won’t reject the traditions which we have learned orally from the apostles (which are still taught in the Catholic Church). The Bible alone is not sufficient, david – such a concept isn’t Biblical. Michael John 6:66 Anti-Eucharist = Anti-Christ

Response:

Chapter and verse, please

Sola Scriptura is not built on one verse! but many

Response:

Sola Scriptura can be defined as the Protestant principle that the doctrines found in scripture are sufficient to salvation. That is to say, if a doctrine cannot be found within the covers of the 66 books of the Protestant Bible, then your salvation does not depend on it.The Catholic responds that the Catholic Church not only has the authority to preserve, define and interpret scripture, but in addition, has the authority to define and declare what it calls Tradition, which it claims is also the Word of God, and has the same validity as scripture: Q. Has tradition any connection with the rule of faith? A. Yes; because it is a part of God’s revealed word, properly called the unwritten word as the scripture is called the written word. Q. What is Tradition? [pg. 87] A. The doctrines which the Apostles taught by word of mouth, and which have descended through every successive generation even to our times. Q. Are we obliged to believe what tradition teaches, equally with what is taught by Scripture? A. Yes; we are obliged to believe the one as firmly as the other; because, what the Apostles preached is as true as their mouths and by their pen. Source: A Doctrinal Catechism, by Rev. Stephen Keenan, Imprimatur by John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York, Copyright 1876 by T. W. Strong, pages 86, 87. It is interesting to note that the Roman Catholic church does define and declare Tradition as a prerequisite to a saving faith. Examples of this type of Catholic Tradition would be: The Immaculate Conception of Mary Mary’s preservation from sin by her immaculate conception declared in the Apostolic Constitution Defining the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Pius IX, INEFFABILIS DEUS, December 8, 1854: Under the subtitle The Definition- … "We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is the doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful." "Hence, if anyone shall dare-which God forbid!-to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that; furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should dare to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he thinks in his heart." The Assumption of Mary Mary’s assumption into heaven, declared in the Apostolic Constitution of Pius XII, Defining the Dogma of the Assumption, Munificentissimus Deus, November 1, 1950, paragraph 44: … by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory. paragraph 45- Hence, if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic faith. As should be obvious, this distinction between Catholics and Protestants is no small matter, since Catholics claim that salvation depends on your belief in dogma that cannot be found in scripture, the only ruler of faith the Protestants know. What hope then does the Protestant have? The Catholic will quote the following verse to "prove" their point. I am going to use several different Bibles for comparison, for those who might contest the validity of the King James. From the New American Bible for Catholics: 2 Th 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. From the Catholic Living Bible: 2 The 2:15 With all these things in mind, dear brothers, stand firm and keep a strong grip on the truth that we taught you in our letters and during the time we were with you. From the 1899 revised Douay Rheims: 2 Th 2:14 Therefore, bretheren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle. From the 1611 King James: 2 Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. From the 1602 Geneva New Testament: 2 Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and keep the instructions which ye have been taught, either by word, or by our epistle. From the 1534 Tyndale New Testament: 2 Th 2:15 Therefore brethren stand fast and keep the ordinances which ye have learned: whether it were by our preaching, or by epistle. The Catholic appeals to this passage to show that the disciples taught the gospel orally, without benefit of the written New Testament to back them up, so therefore, by their thinking, it is really no different when they teach Church Tradition that lacks any scriptural authority. But the early pre-New Testament church DID have a written authority to refer to and adhere to, as the following shows- FIRST CITATION From the New American Bible for Catholics: Acts 17:10 The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas to Beroea during the night. Upon arrival they went into the synagogue of the Jews. Acts 17:11 These Jews were more fair-minded that those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all willingness and examined the scriptures daily to determine whether these things were so. From the Catholic Living Bible: Acts 17:10 That night the Christians hurried Paul and Silas to Beroea, and, as usual, they went to the synagogue to preach. Acts 17:11 But the people of Beroea were more open minded than those in Thessalonica, and gladly listened to the message. They searched the scriptures day by day to check up on Paul and Silas’ statements to see if they were really so. From the 1899 revised Douay Rheims: Acts 17:10 But the bretheren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea. when they were come thither, went into the synagogue of the Jews. Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so. From the King James: Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Please note that the word noble derives from the Greek word eugenes, which Strong’s defines as follows- 2104. eugenes, yoog-en’-ace; from G2095 and G1096; well born, i.e. (lit.) high in rank, or (fig.) generous:–more noble, nobleman. This is significant because it clearly is commending the Bereans over and above the Thessalonicans, because while they listened to Paul and Silas with an open mind, they still checked what they were told for accuracy by comparing it with the scriptures. They did not just accept what they were told by anyone. They used scripture as their only ruler for truth. The principle of Sola Scriptura is very firmly and clearly established in this text. Catholics however, object that the New Testament did not exist in it’s complete written form at the time of this incident, so by their reasoning, it is excluded from this appeal to scriptural authority. Just how, may I ask, does that change the principle established here? Scripture was consulted by the Bereans as the final arbiter of the truth, and this is the exact and precise definition of Sola Scriptura. Had Paul and Silas orally related Traditions (in the Catholic sense of the word) that were not in harmony with, or could not be found in the Old Testament, then the Bereans would have rightly rejected them! The principle of Sola Scriptura is very clearly taught here and the Catholic should face the fact. Their only recourse is to counter that this situation has somehow changed at some point with the New Testament church and that Catholic Tradition must

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – || As a Catholic, I am constantly hearing "Where is scriptural mandate || for this or that Catholic practice?" Well, I would like to know || where in scripture is the mandate for the philosophy of Sola || Scriptura? The "Sola Scriptura" crowd can’t provide an answer to that. That is simply not true. See http://biblelight.net/sola1.htm It’s a simple question Mike – if one has to leave the Newsgroup and go to a website to get an answer, chances are high that it’s a long, crooked road to nowhere.

And when you actually DO leave the newsgroup to get the answer, you discover that it IS a long crooked road to nowhere :- God bless, Stephen — — Stephen Korsman www.theotokos.co.za www.theotokos.co.za/adventism IC | XC NI | KA

Response:

How do you explain this? God created us all as individuals, with different gifts, strengths, and weaknesses. Some hear from God and understand with total clarity, like St. Joan. Some hear from God and must study and learn the hard way, like St. Ignacius. Some hear from God and ignore it, examples are legion.

Well, that’s all fine and dandy, but you didn’t answer the question….. I may not understand what I hear, or maybe you do not understand what you hear, or maybe neither of us understands.

So who DOES understand? Different people see things differently, relate things differently, remember things differently. Consider the fact that we read slightly different accounts from Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John about the events of Jesus’s ministry. Were any of them wrong for not repeating the exact same story as the other three? No. Each remembers and retells the story according to their gifts.

Still, this doesn’t explain the myriad interpretations of the same "clear" Scriptures…. Perhaps I am wrong for my actions and my faith, so I will suffer, but I will do so honestly believing that I have made an active decision and tried to be faithful. One walks in the light that he is given. And some walk in darkness.

Agreed. But this STILL doesn’t answer the question….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My conviction is that Peter was offering a caution, not a prohibition. Reminding us that the prophets did not author the Scriptures. Thus we should never permit ourselves to be deluded into believing that we can author Scripture. I get a completely different take reading the same thing. How do you account for the vast difference? Is one of us right and one of us wrong? Only the Lord Almighty knows and He is leaving the punch line for Judgement Day.

So there IS no correct interpretation of Scripture? Even Scripture itself says otherwise….. If so, why? Because only God knows what God knows.

So who is "led into all truth" by the Holy Spirit (God)? Jesus (God) clearly meant SOMEBODY would be according to the Gospel accounts…. WHO, precisely? Do you accord your OWN interpretations with the same distrust? I believe that I am moved by the Holy Spirit to follow the words of the Father and of the Son, but if I am wrong I will accept their judgement gladly when the time comes.

So there IS no correct interpretation possible, then? At least I am comforted in the knowledge I am trying to be as honest as possible in my obedience, rather than ignoring the Word and setting my own agenda for my own benefit.

But how can you avoid "your own agenda"? It is inescapable, whether you admit it or not. In XC, Bari Stepanovich IC XC –+– "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." NI KA

Response:

BAM, Our all knowing God knew that one day we transcribe Christ’s words and then one day would develope a way to mass-copy them so that everyone could read them. If the Almighty had never intended us to have a Bible to read the words of Christ in, then he would not have permitted us to invent the printing press. As for your allegory of Moses and the old man, no one has said that Jesus is no longer of value, no one has grabbed the Scriptures and run away with them. All we have done is read the words of Christ, recognized that no priest in the world has given proof of an on going oral tradition handed down verbatim from Christ’s lips, and recognized that if we leave ourselves open to the individual interpretation, some of which probably will not be divinely inspired, then one day a priest way teach us an oral tradition involving fellatio. Shalom,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How to put it simply…Scripture says it best, The Sola Scriptura Project is about "only the Word". When God speaks, man should listen. The Holy Scriptures themselves offer all the encouragement we should need. Not true. Jesus Christ appointed successors and said "He who hears you hears me." Jesus did not in any way shape or form, remotely hint, imply or say, that a New Testament book would be the arbiter of all arguments and/or the sole source of guidance for His followers – that idea was made up after the printing press came out, and it is as false as a three dollar bill. It is as ridiculous as thinking of an OT Jew who ran off with the holy parchments saying that Moses no longer has any value. BAM

Response:

The only answer I know is to prayerfully contemplate the question and let God speak to our heart. Many people have claimed that is exactly what they do. And many people all get differing interpretations of the same passages. How do you explain this?

Simple. Either those other people are not as "sincere" as they think they are, or God just decided not to give them the right interpretation. It never applies to the individual who’s promoting sola scriptura though – God tells him the truth. I know that’s false, but that’s all they’ll ever come up with to explain the thousands of disagreements. BAM

Response:

How to put it simply…Scripture says it best, The Sola Scriptura Project is about "only the Word". When God speaks, man should listen. The Holy Scriptures themselves offer all the encouragement we should need.

Not true. Jesus Christ appointed successors and said "He who hears you hears me." Jesus did not in any way shape or form, remotely hint, imply or say, that a New Testament book would be the arbiter of all arguments and/or the sole source of guidance for His followers – that idea was made up after the printing press came out, and it is as false as a three dollar bill. It is as ridiculous as thinking of an OT Jew who ran off with the holy parchments saying that Moses no longer has any value. BAM

Response:

Jose, The speed with which some of the sola scriptura crowd condemn people is not limited to them, since I have been made a pin cushion of spiritual sorts by many when I chose to marry my wife. Members of my home congregation effectively censured me from active participation for wanting to marry a "catolik", just as members of her family routinely skewered me for the heresy of my protestant convictions. It has taken many years, but when I walked up in front of 100+ Jesuits to invoke Holy Scripture, even the most ardent of my critics conceded their error. My home congregation was a less pleasant matter, since their argument with me alienated many who had already married Roman Catholics in quiet [hoping to avoid what I endured] and the eventually the church closed its doors and the remnants of the congregation moved into a fellowship with a Church of Christ congregation.. "This is where I find the most difficulty with some followers of Sola Scriptura-their belief is right and anyone who believes differently is oh the high road to Hell." I cannot ask anyone to excuse their condemnation or their zeal to judge, but believing Sola Scriptura sans personal interpretation is believed by devotees to be the most honest form of obedience. Thus making anyone else a less honest christian or even an outright heretic. You have surely encountered some members of your own parish who attend mass frequently as part of their personal routine, they know all the songs by heart, they recite every prayer in precise time, they genuflect at every appropriate moment mouthing praise at every station of the cross and wearing rosaries that are are nearly worried into splinters. These people are the ones who looked at me and demanded to know why I would darken the steps of God’s House with my heretic presence. Also these are the people who condemend my wife as a whore when she was raped as a young girl and further decried her for attending mass while pregnant as if they thought she should have committed the sin of abortion to avoid their scorn. I believe you when you say, "We are not so far apart." Shalom [in the words of our Saviour],

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The only answer I know is to prayerfully contemplate the question and let God speak to our heart. Perhaps I am wrong for my actions and my faith, so I will suffer, but I will do so honestly believing that I have made an active decision and tried to be faithful. While I don’t go along with the Sola Scriptura thesis, I don’t condemn it. Human salvation is not my decision, it is God’s alone. Each of us, as you and I are both doing, by living honest and prayerful lives, are following God to the best of our ability. The thing that gets me is that many followers of Sola Scriptura are so quick to condemn others. As I said, I’m a Christian. I choose to worship as a Catholic. I find that Catholicism best fills my spiritual needs. In 1 Corintihans 12:12, we are told of the body having many parts. To me, Christianity goes beyond any one religion and God has a plan for each of His believers. We believers all share in the Body of Christ. My conviction is that Peter was offering a caution, not a prohibition. Reminding us that the prophets did not author the Scriptures. Thus we should never permit ourselves to be deluded into believing that we can author Scripture. I agree with you. But it also goes further than this. In 2 Peter 3:16, he cautions against self-interpretaion in that the Word can be made to say almost anything. This is where I find the most difficulty with some followers of Sola Scriptura-their belief is right and anyone who believes differently is oh the high road to Hell. In 1996 I married a Roman Catholic. My sons are being raised as devout Roman Catholics. In June, 2001, I actively participated in the ordination ceremony of my wife’s cousin as he became a Jesuit, reading Scripture to the assembly. Br. Rick and I have had many devout conversations on the nature of faith and why I have not converted to the HRCC. I trust God to touch my heart, that I might know the right thing to do, but I find it hard to trust the personal interpretations of any man, regardless of their position within any church. We are not so far apart. Peace Jose, How to put it simply…Scripture says it best, The Sola Scriptura Project is about "only the Word". When God speaks, man should listen. The Holy Scriptures themselves offer all the encouragement we should need. John 8:31-32 31 …"If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed… 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Hebrews 4:12 12 … the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Col 3:16-17 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. Psalms 119, verses 11-12,15-16 11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against You! 12 Blessed are You, O LORD! Teach me Your statutes! 15 I will meditate on Your precepts, and contemplate Your ways. 16 I will delight myself in Your statutes; I will not forget Your word. Shalom, Thank-you. But yet in Peter’s letters, we have two direct cautions against self-interpretation 2 Perter 1:20-21 and 2 Peter 3:15-16. 2 Peter 1:20-21 NIV 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21 KJV 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:20-21 NKJV 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,[1] 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[2] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21 20[Yet] first [you must] understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is [a matter] of any personal or private or special interpretation (loosening, solving). 21For no prophecy ever originated because some man willed it [to do so--it never came by human impulse], but men spoke from God who were borne along (moved and impelled) by the Holy Spirit. And 2 Peter 3:15-16 NIV 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writesthe same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16 NKJV 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation–as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 2 Peter 3:15-16 AMP 15And consider that the long-suffering of our Lord [[1] His slowness in avenging wrongs and judging the world] is salvation ([2] that which is conducive to the soul’s safety), even as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the spiritual insight given him, 16Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own [3] utter destruction, just as [they distort

Response:

The only answer I know is to prayerfully contemplate the question and let God speak to our heart.

Many people have claimed that is exactly what they do. And many people all get differing interpretations of the same passages. How do you explain this? Perhaps I am wrong for my actions and my faith, so I will suffer, but I will do so honestly believing that I have made an active decision and tried to be faithful.

One walks in the light that he is given. My conviction is that Peter was offering a caution, not a prohibition. Reminding us that the prophets did not author the Scriptures. Thus we should never permit ourselves to be deluded into believing that we can author Scripture.

I get a completely different take reading the same thing. How do you account for the vast difference? Is one of us right and one of us wrong? If so, why? I trust God to touch my heart, that I might know the right thing to do, but I find it hard to trust the personal interpretations of any man, regardless of their position within any church.

Do you accord your OWN interpretations with the same distrust? If not, why? In XC, Bari Stepanovich IC XC --+-- "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." NI KA

Response:

How to put it simply...Scripture says it best, The Sola Scriptura Project is about "only the Word". When God speaks, man should listen. The Holy Scriptures themselves offer all the encouragement we should need. John 8:31-32 31 ..."If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed... 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Hebrews 4:12 12 ... the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Col 3:16-17 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. Psalms 119, verses 11-12,15-16 11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against You! 12 Blessed are You, O LORD! Teach me Your statutes! 15 I will meditate on Your precepts, and contemplate Your ways. 16 I will delight myself in Your statutes; I will not forget Your word. Shalom,

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - || As a Catholic, I am constantly hearing "Where is scriptural mandate || for this or that Catholic practice?" Well, I would like to know || where in scripture is the mandate for the philosophy of Sola || Scriptura? The "Sola Scriptura" crowd can't provide an answer to that. That is simply not true. See http://biblelight.net/sola1.htm It's a simple question Mike - if one has to leave the Newsgroup and go to a website to get an answer, chances are high that it's a long, crooked road to nowhere. BAM

Response:

Bari, How does St. John 21:25 prove that there legitimately exists an oral tradition of Christ's teaching which expand on the written record of Holy Scripture? Shaolm,

I don't claim it does. I was just acknowledging the fact that not every miracle, word and deed of Christ was recorded in just a few short books. As for Stephen's claim of an "oral tradition" detailing these things, I can't comment, as I've never heard of one. But if you're referring to the Scripture vs. Holy Tradition debate, that's a completely different issue. In XC, Bari Stepanovich IC XC --+-- "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." NI KA

Response:

The only answer I know is to prayerfully contemplate the question and let God speak to our heart. Perhaps I am wrong for my actions and my faith, so I will suffer, but I will do so honestly believing that I have made an active decision and tried to be faithful. While I don't go along with the Sola Scriptura thesis, I don't condemn it. Human salvation is not my decision, it is God's alone. Each of us, as you and I are both doing, by living honest and prayerful lives, are following God to the best of our ability. The thing that gets me is that many followers of Sola Scriptura are so quick to condemn others. As I said, I'm a Christian. I choose to worship as a Catholic. I find that Catholicism best fills my spiritual needs. In 1 Corintihans 12:12, we are told of the body having many parts. To me, Christianity goes beyond any one religion and God has a plan for each of His believers. We believers all share in the Body of Christ. My conviction is that Peter was offering a caution, not a prohibition. Reminding us that the prophets did not author the Scriptures. Thus we should never permit ourselves to be deluded into believing that we can author Scripture. I agree with you. But it also goes further than this. In 2 Peter 3:16, he cautions against self-interpretaion in that the Word can be made to say almost anything. This is where I find the most difficulty with some followers of Sola Scriptura-their belief is right and anyone who believes differently is oh the high road to Hell. In 1996 I married a Roman Catholic. My sons are being raised as devout Roman Catholics. In June, 2001, I actively participated in the ordination ceremony of my wife's cousin as he became a Jesuit, reading Scripture to the assembly. Br. Rick and I have had many devout conversations on the nature of faith and why I have not converted to the HRCC. I trust God to touch my heart, that I might know the right thing to do, but I find it hard to trust the personal interpretations of any man, regardless of their position within any church. We are not so far apart. Peace

Jose, How to put it simply...Scripture says it best, The Sola Scriptura Project is about "only the Word". When God speaks, man should listen. The Holy Scriptures themselves offer all the encouragement we should need. John 8:31-32 31 ..."If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed... 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Hebrews 4:12 12 ... the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Col 3:16-17 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. Psalms 119, verses 11-12,15-16 11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against You! 12 Blessed are You, O LORD! Teach me Your statutes! 15 I will meditate on Your precepts, and contemplate Your ways. 16 I will delight myself in Your statutes; I will not forget Your word. Shalom, Thank-you. But yet in Peter's letters, we have two direct cautions against self-interpretation 2 Perter 1:20-21 and 2 Peter 3:15-16. 2 Peter 1:20-21 NIV 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21 KJV 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:20-21 NKJV 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,[1] 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[2] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21 20[Yet] first [you must] understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is [a matter] of any personal or private or special interpretation (loosening, solving). 21For no prophecy ever originated because some man willed it [to do so--it never came by human impulse], but men spoke from God who were borne along (moved and impelled) by the Holy Spirit. And 2 Peter 3:15-16 NIV 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writesthe same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16 NKJV 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation–as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 2 Peter 3:15-16 AMP 15And consider that the long-suffering of our Lord [[1] His slowness in avenging wrongs and judging the world] is salvation ([2] that which is conducive to the soul’s safety), even as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the spiritual insight given him, 16Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own [3] utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures. Regardless of translation, to me, these two verses clearly caution against self-interpretation. I am not a biblical scholar, nor do I profess to be, but how does Sola Scriptura reconcile these? <}}}< As a Catholic, I am constantly hearing "Where is scriptural mandate for this or that Catholic practice?" Well, I would like to know where in scripture is the mandate for the philosophy of Sola Scriptura? Peace, Jose <}}}<

Response:

Bari, How does St. John 21:25 prove that there legitimately exists an oral tradition of Christ’s teaching which expand on the written record of Holy Scripture? Shaolm,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great, I would love to hear about these many more works which are passed on by oral tradition. More parables? More miracles? Perhaps another transfiguration? Please tell me what they are. He’s referring to this: St John 21:25 25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. But let’s not that keep you from being a smart aleck as usual…. In XC, Bari Stepanovich

* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – IC XC –+– "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." NI KA

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jose, How to put it simply…Scripture says it best, The Sola Scriptura Project is about "only the Word". When God speaks, man should listen. The Holy Scriptures themselves offer all the encouragement we should need. John 8:31-32 31 …"If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed… 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Hebrews 4:12 12 … the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Col 3:16-17 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. Psalms 119, verses 11-12,15-16 11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against You! 12 Blessed are You, O LORD! Teach me Your statutes! 15 I will meditate on Your precepts, and contemplate Your ways. 16 I will delight myself in Your statutes; I will not forget Your word. Shalom, Thank-you. But yet in Peter’s letters, we have two direct cautions against self-interpretation 2 Perter 1:20-21 and 2 Peter 3:15-16. 2 Peter 1:20-21 NIV 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21 KJV 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:20-21 NKJV 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,[1] 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[2] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21 20[Yet] first [you must] understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is [a matter] of any personal or private or special interpretation (loosening, solving). 21For no prophecy ever originated because some man willed it [to do so--it never came by human impulse], but men spoke from God who were borne along (moved and impelled) by the Holy Spirit. And 2 Peter 3:15-16 NIV 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writesthe same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16 NKJV 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation–as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 2 Peter 3:15-16 AMP 15And consider that the long-suffering of our Lord [[1] His slowness in avenging wrongs and judging the world] is salvation ([2] that which is conducive to the soul’s safety), even as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the spiritual insight given him, 16Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own [3] utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures. Regardless of translation, to me, these two verses clearly caution against self-interpretation. I am not a biblical scholar, nor do I profess to be, but how does Sola Scriptura reconcile these? <}}}< As a Catholic, I am constantly hearing "Where is scriptural mandate for this or that Catholic practice?" Well, I would like to know where in scripture is the mandate for the philosophy of Sola Scriptura? Peace, Jose <}}}<

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a Catholic, I am constantly hearing "Where is scriptural mandate for this or that Catholic practice?" Well, I would like to know where in scripture is the mandate for the philosophy of Sola Scriptura? Peace, Jose <}}}<

Response:

Great, I would love to hear about these many more works which are passed on by oral tradition. More parables? More miracles? Perhaps another transfiguration? Please tell me what they are.

He’s referring to this: St John 21:25 25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. But let’s not that keep you from being a smart aleck as usual…. In XC, Bari Stepanovich IC XC –+– "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." NI KA

Response:

Great, I would love to hear about these many more works which are passed on by oral tradition. More parables? More miracles? Perhaps another transfiguration? Please tell me what they are. He’s referring to this: St John 21:25

Of course he is referring to that, it was pretty apparent. Glad you picked up on it and keenly alerted everyone to the obvious. 25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. But let’s not that keep you from being a smart aleck as usual….

And he also said: …Jesus said and performed many more works than are contained in the Gospels but are passed on by oral tradition.

I merely asked him to tell me what these many more works "passed on by oral tradition" are. I have never seen anyone claim to know what these many more works are and I would like to know what he believes they might be. Ciao, Falcon — # BIBLE: Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth # # "Have You Read My #1 Best Seller? There Will Be A Test." – God #

Response:

If I had wanted to engage in this discussion with you I would have, I chose to answer Steve instead. This debate has raged for hundreds of years and I seriously doubt that you and I would settle it once and for all. Nor would you or I change our minds on the issue, we would exchange numerous posts and neither would budge a bit on our respective beliefs. I have discussed this issue numerous times with many people and the end is always the same, agree to disagree. I am perfectly content in my total belief that scripture is sola and you are perfectly content in your belief that you need more, so be it. I will save us a lot of time and typing. We agree to disagree. The only reason I answered Steve is because he presented a novel idea that I have never seen nor heard before, not even from the most hardcore "T"radition people, that he apparently knows about the many more works so I wanted to find out what those many more works, as passed on by oral tradition, might be. I would think you would like to know these many more works as well, if you do not already know them. Ciao, Falcon — # BIBLE: Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth # # "Have You Read My #1 Best Seller? There Will Be A Test." – God #

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – || As a Catholic, I am constantly hearing "Where is scriptural mandate || for this or that Catholic practice?" Well, I would like to know || where in scripture is the mandate for the philosophy of Sola || Scriptura? The "Sola Scriptura" crowd can’t provide an answer to that. Although, they conveniently ignore the writing in the Gospels that Jesus said and performed many more works than are contained in the Gospels but are passed on by oral tradition. Great, I would love to hear about these many more works which are passed on by oral tradition. More parables? More miracles? Perhaps another transfiguration? Please tell me what they are. Ciao, Falcon

Falcon, how about giving an answer to my question first? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — # BIBLE: Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth # # "Have You Read My #1 Best Seller? There Will Be A Test." – God #

Response:

Jose, How to put it simply…Scripture says it best, The Sola Scriptura Project is about "only the Word". When God speaks, man should listen. The Holy Scriptures themselves offer all the encouragement we should need. John 8:31-32 31 …"If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed… 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Hebrews 4:12 12 … the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Col 3:16-17 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. Psalms 119, verses 11-12,15-16 11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against You! 12 Blessed are You, O LORD! Teach me Your statutes! 15 I will meditate on Your precepts, and contemplate Your ways. 16 I will delight myself in Your statutes; I will not forget Your word. Shalom, Thank-you. But yet in Peter’s letters, we have two direct cautions against self-interpretation 2 Perter 1:20-21 and 2 Peter 3:15-16. 2 Peter 1:20-21 NIV 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21 KJV 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:20-21 NKJV 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,[1] 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[2] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21 20[Yet] first [you must] understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is [a matter] of any personal or private or special interpretation (loosening, solving). 21For no prophecy ever originated because some man willed it [to do so--it never came by human impulse], but men spoke from God who were borne along (moved and impelled) by the Holy Spirit. And 2 Peter 3:15-16 NIV 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writesthe same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16 NKJV 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation–as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 2 Peter 3:15-16 AMP 15And consider that the long-suffering of our Lord [[1] His slowness in avenging wrongs and judging the world] is salvation ([2] that which is conducive to the soul’s safety), even as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the spiritual insight given him, 16Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own [3] utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures. Regardless of translation, to me, these two verses clearly caution against self-interpretation. I am not a biblical scholar, nor do I profess to be, but how does Sola Scriptura reconcile these? <}}}< As a Catholic, I am constantly hearing "Where is scriptural mandate for this or that Catholic practice?" Well, I would like to know where in scripture is the mandate for the philosophy of Sola Scriptura? Peace, Jose <}}}<

Response:

|| As a Catholic, I am constantly hearing "Where is scriptural mandate || for this or that Catholic practice?" Well, I would like to know || where in scripture is the mandate for the philosophy of Sola || Scriptura? The "Sola Scriptura" crowd can’t provide an answer to that. That is simply not true. See http://biblelight.net/sola1.htm

It’s a simple question Mike – if one has to leave the Newsgroup and go to a website to get an answer, chances are high that it’s a long, crooked road to nowhere. BAM

Response:

|| As a Catholic, I am constantly hearing "Where is scriptural mandate || for this or that Catholic practice?" Well, I would like to know || where in scripture is the mandate for the philosophy of Sola || Scriptura? The "Sola Scriptura" crowd can’t provide an answer to that. Although, they conveniently ignore the writing in the Gospels that Jesus said and performed many more works than are contained in the Gospels but are passed on by oral tradition.

Response:

That is simply not true. See http://biblelight.net/sola1.htm

Response:

The Catholic church existed from the time of Christ and carried the oral traditions long before the New Testament existed on paper. The Catholic church maintained, compiled and wrote the first bible. "Sola Scriptura" is impossible given that the NT would have existed on paper before the Catholic church, which it did not.

Response:

As a Catholic, I am constantly hearing "Where is scriptural mandate for this or that Catholic practice?" Well, I would like to know where in scripture is the mandate for the philosophy of Sola Scriptura? Peace, Jose

There’s a stock answer for that in Paul’s letter to Timothy – you know, about scripture being profitable, etc. BAM

Response:

|| As a Catholic, I am constantly hearing "Where is scriptural mandate || for this or that Catholic practice?" Well, I would like to know || where in scripture is the mandate for the philosophy of Sola || Scriptura? The "Sola Scriptura" crowd can’t provide an answer to that. Although, they conveniently ignore the writing in the Gospels that Jesus said and performed many more works than are contained in the Gospels but are passed on by oral tradition. Steve

Response:

"If we can just add what we want, there is no teaching, no true belief. We might as well be deists or even athiests." Or, Mormons. Or, Romanists. These two religions, and many like them, all have this in common: They place their own traditions -and the "revelations" of their church fathers- above the Word of God.

Even those who in faith worship other gods, because of their love they worship me, although not in the right way. For I accept every sacrifice, and I am their Lord supreme. But they know not my pure Being, and because of this they fall. For those who worship the gods go to the gods, and those who worship the fathers go to the fathers. Those who worship the lower spirits go to the lower spirits; but those who worship me come unto me. The Lord Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita, 9:23-25 Cheers! Charlie the Tuna The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality. – Preface to Androcles and the Lion, George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

Response:

LOL! Good one Tuna, but I won’t be baited. Peace, Joe

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even those who in faith worship other gods, because of their love they worship me, although not in the right way. For I accept every sacrifice, and I am their Lord supreme. But they know not my pure Being, and because of this they fall. For those who worship the gods go to the gods, and those who worship the fathers go to the fathers. Those who worship the lower spirits go to the lower spirits; but those who worship me come unto me. The Lord Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita, 9:23-25 Cheers! Charlie the Tuna LOL! Good one Tuna, but I won’t be baited.

Here’s another chuckle for you: Buddha does not always appear as a Buddha. Sometimes He appears as an incarnation of evil, sometimes as a woman, a god, a king, or a statesman; sometimes He appears in a brothel or in a gambling house. Ch. 3,

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