Question:
In a previous article, k…@panix.com (Kim Scheinberg) said: >the problem is similar in not wanting an over-entitled young adult >hanging around the house, deciding she can do what she wants as long >as she isn’t asking us to pay for it.
But she can. However, she *is* asking you to pay for it, in that she doesn’t have to provide her own shelter or transportation. Your costs in having her in the house are minimal (how much does your electric or water bill go up when she’s around?), but they’re worth a thousand a month to her. And the costs of her car are non-trivial to you. She *can* do what she wants. But she should be paying for it. It doesn’t matter that you’re *not* paying for it. It matters that *she’s* not paying for it. Vicki — Power may be justly compared to a great river; while kept within its bounds it is both beautiful and useful, but when it overflows its banks, it is then too impetuous to be stemmed; it bears down all before it, and brings destruction and desolation wherever it goes." — Alexander Hamilton.
Response:
"Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe" <kitten-…@stbrigidsgatefarm-at-peoplepc.com> wrote in message news:0gm7f0t30n4ao02rqgtjn5ikfsbtnj34h8@4ax.com… > OK, she just had a baby in October. And your expecting her to deal > with the difficulties you are having with your OD. WHILE she’s > dealing with a newborn. > Am I the only one who sees a problem with that?
Hm. Yes… and no. When I had my son, it took like 30 seconds for SO to leave me alone with both kids. It took him like 3 months to keep both kids while I got out of the house. And I resented it. The wife here is the biological parent of all the children, John is the bio parent of just the baby. Dealing with someone else’s kid and their issues while you are trying to adjust to being a new parent is tough. My kids are younger than John’s. And I don’t have the same money issues. But I know suddenly being sole support for a houseful of people while you are smacked in the face with a little bitty thing that’s totally dependent, while your wife pays less attention to you, the house and everything has got to be pretty freaky. Which, incidentally John, is why I never advise people with new kids to split up if they’re having problems. It’s a gigantic change, and the stress really can affect your relationship. rebecca
Response:
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:01:04 GMT, "rebecca" <justrebec…@yahoo.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe" <kitten-…@stbrigidsgatefarm-at-peoplepc.com> >wrote in message news:0gm7f0t30n4ao02rqgtjn5ikfsbtnj34h8@4ax.com… >> OK, she just had a baby in October. And your expecting her to deal >> with the difficulties you are having with your OD. WHILE she’s >> dealing with a newborn. >> Am I the only one who sees a problem with that? >Hm. Yes… and no. When I had my son, it took like 30 seconds for SO to >leave me alone with both kids. It took him like 3 months to keep both kids >while I got out of the house. And I resented it. The wife here is the >biological parent of all the children, John is the bio parent of just the >baby. Dealing with someone else’s kid and their issues while you are trying >to adjust to being a new parent is tough. My kids are younger than John’s. >And I don’t have the same money issues. But I know suddenly being sole >support for a houseful of people while you are smacked in the face with a >little bitty thing that’s totally dependent, while your wife pays less >attention to you, the house and everything has got to be pretty freaky. >Which, incidentally John, is why I never advise people with new kids to >split up if they’re having problems. It’s a gigantic change, and the stress >really can affect your relationship.
Oh, I understand that the adjustment is difficult for him, too. It’s just that his posts seem so focused on *him* and *his* perspective, without much information on how he’s trying to look at *her* perspective as well. It’s going to take *both* of them making an effort to work to look at the *other person’s* perspective and coming together at some point. At least that’s my experience with it. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Response:
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:10:58 -0500, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<kitten-…@stbrigidsgatefarm-at-peoplepc.com> wrote: >On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:01:04 GMT, "rebecca" <justrebec…@yahoo.com> >wrote: >>"Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe" <kitten-…@stbrigidsgatefarm-at-peoplepc.com> >>wrote in message news:0gm7f0t30n4ao02rqgtjn5ikfsbtnj34h8@4ax.com… >>> OK, she just had a baby in October. And your expecting her to deal >>> with the difficulties you are having with your OD. WHILE she’s >>> dealing with a newborn. >>> Am I the only one who sees a problem with that? >>Hm. Yes… and no. When I had my son, it took like 30 seconds for SO to >>leave me alone with both kids. It took him like 3 months to keep both kids >>while I got out of the house. And I resented it. The wife here is the >>biological parent of all the children, John is the bio parent of just the >>baby. Dealing with someone else’s kid and their issues while you are trying >>to adjust to being a new parent is tough. My kids are younger than John’s. >>And I don’t have the same money issues. But I know suddenly being sole >>support for a houseful of people while you are smacked in the face with a >>little bitty thing that’s totally dependent, while your wife pays less >>attention to you, the house and everything has got to be pretty freaky. >>Which, incidentally John, is why I never advise people with new kids to >>split up if they’re having problems. It’s a gigantic change, and the stress >>really can affect your relationship. >Oh, I understand that the adjustment is difficult for him, too. It’s >just that his posts seem so focused on *him* and *his* perspective, >without much information on how he’s trying to look at *her* >perspective as well. It’s going to take *both* of them making an >effort to work to look at the *other person’s* perspective and coming >together at some point. At least that’s my experience with it. >Kitten
I agree – but that’s part of the problem – she just refuses to discuss any of it. As far as the other poster asking about the rules, I was writing this in the first person – there wasn’t a single rule that I came up with – either they were hers already before we got together and we modified them for the new situation, or they were rules we came up wtih after we moved in together. Even the "no car for a month", while it was my idea, was one we both discussed and agreed on as a method to try to show the daughter that she could get by with walking half a mile in good weather. Someone asked about faith – we were both agnostics when we met – I made a point of trying to find someone I was religiously compatible with since I had seen religion cause so many problems in relationships. Her sister was a pentacostal, and she thought her sister was nuts. Speaking in tongues, god talking to you, etc… But then her daughters got into it in 98 or so, and when they hit some milestone they wanted their mom there, and mom went, and got pulled in. Up until that point, we pretty much were even keel as far as everything went, including the kids. There was never any arbitrary anything from either of us. Any decision, even grounding, was always discussed and agreed on. If we both had different ideas of either a punishment for something, a reward for something, whatever, we discussed it and reached some type of comprimise. After she got her "holy ghost" at this church, all that changed. That’s where she simply flat out refused to acknowledge any need for participation on my part. After she got her religion, since I didn’t belive what she believed, suddenly I was no longer qualified to be involved. Every single decision that has been made – including changing both of their schools to this church she went to (after we bought the house specifically because the public schools here were the best in the area) – were done solely by my wife, without ever even letting me know anything was happening. Suddenly one day the kids aren’t going to their school anymore. When I bring any of these concerns up and say we have to talk and deal with the issues, she says no we don’t – it’s not a problem with her and I, it’s a problem between god and I, since I don’t believe in god. So she flat out refuses to acknowledge there’s any issues to work out, since it’s all because I don’t believe in god. If I find god, she thinks everything will magically be right. I even went to her church a few times, but I just don’t see what they see. It’s only the last 4 years that things have gone downhill. And it all started the very day she went to this church. She had never lied to me until that point – then for 2 weeks she kept all these things a secret from me until there was no way to hide them anymore. So for those who replied trying to figure out why there’s such a "me vs. them" attitude, this is why. In some areas of the problems, it’s exactly a "me vs. them" because I’m the only one who doesn’t believe what they believe. Oh well… I hadn’t expected any answers from here (cause I know the answers are things I have to find for myself) but at least I’m getting things to think about – which was the whole point of my posting. Thanks to those who took the time to read and reply. It’s always so hard to see the situation when you’re in the middle of it… John
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe wrote: > On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:35:02 GMT, john <j…@john.com> wrote: >> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:10:05 -0500, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe >> <kitten-…@stbrigidsgatefarm-at-peoplepc.com> wrote: >>>> (And how did he get that monniker?) >>> When he went to work for NowDocs, a failed dot-com, he was big, >>> hairy, and growled a lot. So one of the sys admins (that they >>> STOLE from me at the dot-com where *I* worked… grrrrr… lol) >>> started calling him Chewy, short for Chewbacca. It stuck. :-) >> I figured it had to be something along those lines, as I had assumed >> the star wars reference the first time I saw the reference to him. 
> He asked me to add that when he started thinking abt losing the nick a > few months back, he talked to a friend at church abt it. The friend > was surprised to hear that the nick was a Star Wars reference. He > thought it was in reference to Chewy’s spiritual change and > commitment. In the Hispanic culture, "Chewy" is a nickname for > "Jesus." After learning that, Chewy decided to keep it. It fits him.
Does he think he is Jesus? — Geri "We’re going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." - Hillary Clinton
Response:
In article <lup8f0d32ie3cd91j5ej1gqnv2teseh…@4ax.com>, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe <kitten…@stbrigidsgatefarm-at-peoplepc.com> wrote: >When he went to work for NowDocs, a failed dot-com, he was big, hairy, >and growled a lot. So one of the sys admins (that they STOLE from me >at the dot-com where *I* worked… grrrrr… lol) started calling him >Chewy, short for Chewbacca. It stuck. :-) >Kitten
This is pretty funny–back in 1980 when I worked at Digital, we had a guy there whose nickname was Wookie. He looked just like one, too. Deb R. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds >the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves >those who harm it. – Menno Simons, 1539 >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn’t come in a bottle >or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands >you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. >– Ty Murray >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Response:
"john" <j…@john.com> wrote in message > Thanks for the points. When you
talked about how you and DH interact, > and going through the bad years and feeling like you didn’t want to > give up your opinions – what was the thing that turned the tables? > When I try to talk to my wife about it, she gets instantly defensive, > because she thinks I’m criticizing her parenting. And I can > understand that point of view, but it comes up even when we’re talking > about kid things that aren’t problems. I’ve tried to come at the > issues as obliquely and non-critical as I can think of, but even for > the most innocent question, she jumps on the defensive. I’d like to > hear what your DH and you changed that helped you past issues like > this.
If it is anything like I remember going through everytime you bring it up it would feel the same. I think in our case what happened was we dropped our old routine. Instead of getting worked up and cranky over something he started treating himself to a new book or something like that. He would, in other words, live with whatever it was that was driving him nuts – but focus on something else that was good instead. He started to take more of an interest in his own kids. I guess his whole attitude to life changed. He went from from being a cranky man to being a happy one. He looked at the good things in his life and tried to skip over the bad things. In retrospect the bad things about my kid that drove DH nuts were all, in essence, minor. Things like the clothes he wore, or the way his voice sounded or the way he would ask for things. DH used to focus on those things and make them seem so much worse than they really were. One thing that really annoyed DH was the way my son would talk on his mobile phone late at night. We discussed many ways of fixing this and eventually agreed to move my son out to the garage. We spent all the money that we had been saving to buy DH a new car and turned the garage into a nice teenagers retreat. Even though it meant DH had to wait another 6 or more months to get a new car he thought it was totally worth it. And it has worked out really well for everyone. We had been to a counsellor who advised we live separately until my son grew up. That was an option but we both knew the problem was not that bad – it was bad in our heads but logically it didn’t appear *that* bad. Honestly I think problems get bad because of self talk more than anything else. You sit and stew over some little annoyance and before you know it it has turned into a huge annoyance. Really all it takes sometimes is a change of scenery. A break in routine. Just start *being* happy. Anyway to cut a long story short. DH started being more happy. If he had something to complain to me about it didn’t come across as that old ‘here we go again’. I could take his opinions more seriously because they didn’t seem like the old ones. I guess you read about my attempt to get Cal to snap out of her negative attitude. I mentioned something about victim mentality. Its a form of self talk that does nothing but make the problem go round and round and never get anywhere. Think of a circle. That’s neverending and the only way out is to break it and start going off in another direction. I’ve got to run now. Sorry if its been a long ramble. Sorry if I’ve sounded bitchy. I’m not an eloquent writer by any means. Hope I’ve been of some help. Amy
Response:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:12:38 GMT, "Cornhuskeress" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<cahuskerf…@sbcglobalGOAWAY.net> wrote: >Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe wrote: >> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:35:02 GMT, john <j…@john.com> wrote: >>> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:10:05 -0500, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe >>> <kitten-…@stbrigidsgatefarm-at-peoplepc.com> wrote: >>>>> (And how did he get that monniker?) >>>> When he went to work for NowDocs, a failed dot-com, he was big, >>>> hairy, and growled a lot. So one of the sys admins (that they >>>> STOLE from me at the dot-com where *I* worked… grrrrr… lol) >>>> started calling him Chewy, short for Chewbacca. It stuck. :-) >>> I figured it had to be something along those lines, as I had assumed >>> the star wars reference the first time I saw the reference to him. >> He asked me to add that when he started thinking abt losing the nick a >> few months back, he talked to a friend at church abt it. The friend >> was surprised to hear that the nick was a Star Wars reference. He >> thought it was in reference to Chewy’s spiritual change and >> commitment. In the Hispanic culture, "Chewy" is a nickname for >> "Jesus." After learning that, Chewy decided to keep it. It fits him. >Does he think he is Jesus?
Oh, puh-LEEZE, Geri! Good grief! Would you come down off your high horse? Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Response:
Amy Lou wrote: > I guess you read about my attempt to get Cal to snap out of her > negative attitude.
You know what Amy. It would be appreciated if you would leave me, and any comments about me out of your posts, thank you very much. Your comment above is a nice way to "white wash" what you said earlier, btw. >I mentioned something about victim mentality. And for god sake, please! Go back and read your very recent posts before you start talking about other people and their ‘victim mentality’, would you? <Snip>
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:35:02 GMT, john <j…@john.com> wrote: >On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:10:05 -0500, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe ><kitten-…@stbrigidsgatefarm-at-peoplepc.com> wrote: >>>(And how did he get that monniker?) >>When he went to work for NowDocs, a failed dot-com, he was big, hairy, >>and growled a lot. So one of the sys admins (that they STOLE from me >>at the dot-com where *I* worked… grrrrr… lol) started calling him >>Chewy, short for Chewbacca. It stuck. :-) >I figured it had to be something along those lines, as I had assumed >the star wars reference the first time I saw the reference to him.
He asked me to add that when he started thinking abt losing the nick a few months back, he talked to a friend at church abt it. The friend was surprised to hear that the nick was a Star Wars reference. He thought it was in reference to Chewy’s spiritual change and commitment. In the Hispanic culture, "Chewy" is a nickname for "Jesus." After learning that, Chewy decided to keep it. It fits him. >>Does she have a nice Bible? If not, you could get her one. Or a nice >>Bible-cover. Even though you don’t share her faith, you have a love >>for her, so of course you would want to do something nice for her. >>And then you can have the book as a part of the gift. You can tell >>her a Mennonite lady suggested it for the humor. ;-) >Yeah, got her a couple very nice bibles when she started going. ones >a nice leatherbound one, very detailed illustrations and such, while >the other is one of the hardcover "student bibles" that have all the >additional information and references in it.
OK, does she have a nice Bible cover to keep her favorite and most used of the Bibles protected and well cared for? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>But I’m not an >>>atheist – I can’t see that extreme end either – my agnosticism stems >>>from the fact that I can find no way, nor have I found anyone, who has >>>proven the question either way. I couldn’t claim to be an atheist >>>since I can’t prove god doesn’t exist any more than I could claim to >>>be of faith since I can’t prove he does… >>God doesn’t mind questioning. I’ve always been of the feeling that >>God would rather have people question until they could come up with a >>certain answer upon which to base their faith, than to have people >>operate under totally BLIND faith. >You would think. That’s one of the problems I’ve always had with >religions. The ones I know all seem to think they’re the magic pill, >and without that exact pill you’re rotting in hell, no matter what. >Ethics and morality to me have nothing to do with religion – they have >to do with character. I have both. So if someone who lives a life >that’s worse than mine, does things that are worse, kills, whatever, >as long as he has this "magic pill" he’s saved. I could be a thousand >times better than I am today, never do anything wrong, but without >that pill I’ll still not get the "reward" the killer gets. Never >struck me as something a god that’s omniscient and omnipotent would >come up with. And the agnostic in me questions whether that’s the >type of a god I would want to worship anyway… course, this is a >topic for a whole other thread in a whole different group. 
No >sense dragging this one THAT far OT.
Hey, I always had problems with the old "anyone who’s not accepted Jesus is going straight to hell!" mentality. I’m sorry, but the God who has gotten me through hell and back in my own life (and there have been times that there is no other explanation than God) is *not* a God who would send people to hell just because they’ve never even heard of Jesus. God doesn’t send people to hell. People send themselves to hell, by choice. That’s part of free will. You should have seen some of the discussions I got started with that during the two-and-a-half years I attended a Southern Baptist college. Heh. >>>Thanks for any suggestions. >>:-) I hope I can provide some answers that will help. I’m coming at >>this from a different angle than your wife. That might make it >>difficult. I dunno. >If you guys have anything you’d suggest I read, let me know. I read >four to six books a week, depending on how much sleep I want to miss >each night. I’m an avid reader when I’m in the mood. Always >looking for things I haven’t consumed yet.
OK, I can’t find the book I was initially thinking about. Chewy may still have it in his briefcase. It’s a Bible-based book for couples wanting to improve their relationship and communication. But here are a couple others you might want to look at. One’s Bible-based and one’s not. _Wild_at_Heart_ by John Eldredge is a Bible-based book specifically for men, but he suggests that women read it to if they wish a better understanding of the men in their lives. Chewy really appreciated this book when I gave it to him. There were parts of it he strongly disagrees with (haven’t found a book yet that he doesn’t disagree with some part of), but he still found it helpful. ISBN# 0-785-26883-9. Amazon has it for $15.39. _Conscious_Loving:_The_Journey_to_Co-Commitment_ by Gay and Kathlyn Hendricks, both PhDs, isn’t Bible-based, but it’s full of things they learned as they were working on making their marriage stronger. It goes into the traps each of us lays for ourselves in our close relationships, how to spot and to work on the issues we each have, and how to be co-committed (rather than co-dependent) in our relationships. ISBN# 0-553-35411-6. Amazon has it for $11.17. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Response:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:27:00 GMT, "Amy Lou" <amylou…@bigpond.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"john" <j…@john.com> wrote in message But when she found this, I >> spent 4 months or so doing a bible study here at home with her and one >> of the pastors from her church, I did the studying, etc… I made an >> honest attempt, even got baptised, but I just never found any belief >> in myself. That period was about the only time since her conversion >> that she’d listen to me regarding any issues with her kids… Once >> that fell through, we were back to where my opinion doesn’t count >> again. >> Thanks for any suggestions. >I get the feeling that having your opinion count is very important to you. >My husband is the same. DH has lived with my kid and I since my kid was 5. >It started off not being an issue but by the time my kid was about 11 we had >had two more babies and the whole situation changed. >Part of your problem, as I see it, is that you have enabled your wife to not >take your opinion seriously for a long while and now you want that to >change. To me it seems understandable that she resists. In other words it >won’t be easy for this dynamic to change. It still can though. >I think there might be some answers if you take another look at what caused >her to listen to you when you were doing the religious studies. Maybe it >wasn’t so much the fact that you were trying to get faith but the fact that >you were taking an interest in her opinions which in turn made her feel more >loving and considerate of you. >I don’t know how you and your wife interact but I do know how me and my DH >interact. We went through a few years of really butting heads because his >opinions about my kid were critical of mine. I didn’t particularly want to >take his opinions on board because I felt that if I did it meant I had to >give up my opinions. I don’t know if this is making sense. Anyway eventually >this horrible phase passed. We changed the way that we interacted with each >other and slowly a more friendly, considerate method of communication took >over which made both of us want to consider the other’s opinions more >highly. >Relationships are very complex things. If you get into a habit that is >contributing to the problems you need to change your ways. That is the hard >part. Not impossible though. >Anything I said make sense? >Amy
Thanks for the points. When you talked about how you and DH interact, and going through the bad years and feeling like you didn’t want to give up your opinions – what was the thing that turned the tables? When I try to talk to my wife about it, she gets instantly defensive, because she thinks I’m criticizing her parenting. And I can understand that point of view, but it comes up even when we’re talking about kid things that aren’t problems. I’ve tried to come at the issues as obliquely and non-critical as I can think of, but even for the most innocent question, she jumps on the defensive. I’d like to hear what your DH and you changed that helped you past issues like this. Thanks John
Response:
"john" <j…@john.com> wrote in message But when she found this, I > spent 4 months or so doing a bible study here at home with her and one > of the pastors from her church, I did the studying, etc… I made an > honest attempt, even got baptised, but I just never found any belief > in myself. That period was about the only time since her conversion > that she’d listen to me regarding any issues with her kids… Once > that fell through, we were back to where my opinion doesn’t count > again. > Thanks for any suggestions.
I get the feeling that having your opinion count is very important to you. My husband is the same. DH has lived with my kid and I since my kid was 5. It started off not being an issue but by the time my kid was about 11 we had had two more babies and the whole situation changed. Part of your problem, as I see it, is that you have enabled your wife to not take your opinion seriously for a long while and now you want that to change. To me it seems understandable that she resists. In other words it won’t be easy for this dynamic to change. It still can though. I think there might be some answers if you take another look at what caused her to listen to you when you were doing the religious studies. Maybe it wasn’t so much the fact that you were trying to get faith but the fact that you were taking an interest in her opinions which in turn made her feel more loving and considerate of you. I don’t know how you and your wife interact but I do know how me and my DH interact. We went through a few years of really butting heads because his opinions about my kid were critical of mine. I didn’t particularly want to take his opinions on board because I felt that if I did it meant I had to give up my opinions. I don’t know if this is making sense. Anyway eventually this horrible phase passed. We changed the way that we interacted with each other and slowly a more friendly, considerate method of communication took over which made both of us want to consider the other’s opinions more highly. Relationships are very complex things. If you get into a habit that is contributing to the problems you need to change your ways. That is the hard part. Not impossible though. Anything I said make sense? Amy
Response:
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:10:05 -0500, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe <kitten-…@stbrigidsgatefarm-at-peoplepc.com> wrote: >>(And how did he get that monniker?) >When he went to work for NowDocs, a failed dot-com, he was big, hairy, >and growled a lot. So one of the sys admins (that they STOLE from me >at the dot-com where *I* worked… grrrrr… lol) started calling him >Chewy, short for Chewbacca. It stuck. :-)
I figured it had to be something along those lines, as I had assumed the star wars reference the first time I saw the reference to him. >Does she have a nice Bible? If not, you could get her one. Or a nice >Bible-cover. Even though you don’t share her faith, you have a love >for her, so of course you would want to do something nice for her. >And then you can have the book as a part of the gift. You can tell >her a Mennonite lady suggested it for the humor. ;-)
Yeah, got her a couple very nice bibles when she started going. ones a nice leatherbound one, very detailed illustrations and such, while the other is one of the hardcover "student bibles" that have all the additional information and references in it. >>But I’m not an >>atheist – I can’t see that extreme end either – my agnosticism stems >>from the fact that I can find no way, nor have I found anyone, who has >>proven the question either way. I couldn’t claim to be an atheist >>since I can’t prove god doesn’t exist any more than I could claim to >>be of faith since I can’t prove he does… >God doesn’t mind questioning. I’ve always been of the feeling that >God would rather have people question until they could come up with a >certain answer upon which to base their faith, than to have people >operate under totally BLIND faith.
You would think. That’s one of the problems I’ve always had with religions. The ones I know all seem to think they’re the magic pill, and without that exact pill you’re rotting in hell, no matter what. Ethics and morality to me have nothing to do with religion – they have to do with character. I have both. So if someone who lives a life that’s worse than mine, does things that are worse, kills, whatever, as long as he has this "magic pill" he’s saved. I could be a thousand times better than I am today, never do anything wrong, but without that pill I’ll still not get the "reward" the killer gets. Never struck me as something a god that’s omniscient and omnipotent would come up with. And the agnostic in me questions whether that’s the type of a god I would want to worship anyway… course, this is a topic for a whole other thread in a whole different group. No sense dragging this one THAT far OT. >>Thanks for any suggestions. >:-) I hope I can provide some answers that will help. I’m coming at >this from a different angle than your wife. That might make it >difficult. I dunno.
If you guys have anything you’d suggest I read, let me know. I read four to six books a week, depending on how much sleep I want to miss each night. I’m an avid reader when I’m in the mood. Always looking for things I haven’t consumed yet. Thanks John
Response:
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:51:10 GMT, john <j…@john.com> wrote: >Question – what faith are "Chewy" and yourself?
We’re Mennonite. We weren’t raised Mennonite, but the Mennonite Confession of Faith perfectly fits the path to which God led us. I was raised Southern Baptist, but the church where I grew up was *nothing* like the stereotype. I had absolutely no idea where that stereotype came from until I was grown and had left the area where I grew up. Chewy was raised Episcopalian (sp? I can never get it right.) He took the long way around to becoming Mennonite. He studied Zen, as well as a few other philosophical and religious paths. >(And how did he get that monniker?)
When he went to work for NowDocs, a failed dot-com, he was big, hairy, and growled a lot. So one of the sys admins (that they STOLE from me at the dot-com where *I* worked… grrrrr… lol) started calling him Chewy, short for Chewbacca. It stuck. :-) >I’ve talked with some pentacostals in the pentacostal >group when all this happened, trying to find things out. One of them >was that the believing wife who has a non believing husband should try >to make an example of her behavior and faith and life to try to get >the nonbelieving husband to come into the same faith – basically live >as an example. So yes, that’s not what’s happening here… 
Sadly, that happens far too often. Even if you *never* become a believer, she still needs to live out her faith. >I’ll pick up that book – she has tons of various books regarding her >faith and sundry assorted related things. The question will be how to >give it to her without it being a nonverbal accusation.
Just slip it into the bookshelf without saying a word? I dunno. Does she have a nice Bible? If not, you could get her one. Or a nice Bible-cover. Even though you don’t share her faith, you have a love for her, so of course you would want to do something nice for her. And then you can have the book as a part of the gift. You can tell her a Mennonite lady suggested it for the humor. ;-) This book is *truly* a humorous book. Good *wifely* Christian humor. That humor just holds a lot of truths. The back cover says, "Terri opens the door to her home and marriage and invites you to laugh with (at) her. But as Camp fans know, her humor is balanced wtih a passion for truth. Sharing stories every wife will identify with, she’s sure to make you laugh. But with surprising candor, Terri opens her heart so you can open yours – helping you assess and have a richer relationship with your husband, children, and the Lord." Of course, she may ask you if you’re hinting that you want eight kids and/or to be a home educator. lol… And no, this book has absolutely *nothing* to do with the fact that we’re trying to add four more kids to the household. And I was homeschooling LONG before I’d heard of Terri Camp. ;-) >And if you >guys have suggestions for me, please feel free to suggest them. I was >raised roman catholic, including catholic schools from nursery school >through 12th grade, hence the reason I’m an agnostic.
Heh. Not much different from Episcopalian, from what Chewy tells me. He calls it "Anglo-Catholic." FWIW, he attended Catholic school for one year of high school. That’s all they could stand him. lol >But I’m not an >atheist – I can’t see that extreme end either – my agnosticism stems >from the fact that I can find no way, nor have I found anyone, who has >proven the question either way. I couldn’t claim to be an atheist >since I can’t prove god doesn’t exist any more than I could claim to >be of faith since I can’t prove he does…
God doesn’t mind questioning. I’ve always been of the feeling that God would rather have people question until they could come up with a certain answer upon which to base their faith, than to have people operate under totally BLIND faith. >But when she found this, I >spent 4 months or so doing a bible study here at home with her and one >of the pastors from her church, I did the studying, etc… I made an >honest attempt, even got baptised, but I just never found any belief >in myself. That period was about the only time since her conversion >that she’d listen to me regarding any issues with her kids… Once >that fell through, we were back to where my opinion doesn’t count >again.
And that’s wrong. Flat out. >Thanks for any suggestions.
I hope I can provide some answers that will help. I’m coming at this from a different angle than your wife. That might make it difficult. I dunno. Chewy wasn’t a Christian when we met, although he attended church. He was still searching. I didn’t realize just how much he was searching until we’d been together a while, and he opened up more fully to me. I kinda wish I could talk with your wife, see where she’s coming from; but I don’t know how that could be accomplished. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Response:
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:17:32 -0500, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<kitten-…@stbrigidsgatefarm-at-peoplepc.com> wrote: >On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:59:52 GMT, john <j…@john.com> wrote: >>After she got her "holy ghost" at this church, all that changed. >>That’s where she simply flat out refused to acknowledge any need for >>participation on my part. After she got her religion, since I didn’t >>belive what she believed, suddenly I was no longer qualified to be >>involved. Every single decision that has been made – including >>changing both of their schools to this church she went to (after we >>bought the house specifically because the public schools here were the >>best in the area) – were done solely by my wife, without ever even >>letting me know anything was happening. Suddenly one day the kids >>aren’t going to their school anymore. >>When I bring any of these concerns up and say we have to talk and deal >>with the issues, she says no we don’t – it’s not a problem with her >>and I, it’s a problem between god and I, since I don’t believe in god. >>So she flat out refuses to acknowledge there’s any issues to work out, >>since it’s all because I don’t believe in god. If I find god, she >>thinks everything will magically be right. I even went to her church >>a few times, but I just don’t see what they see. >>It’s only the last 4 years that things have gone downhill. And it all >>started the very day she went to this church. She had never lied to >>me until that point – then for 2 weeks she kept all these things a >>secret from me until there was no way to hide them anymore. >>So for those who replied trying to figure out why there’s such a "me >>vs. them" attitude, this is why. In some areas of the problems, it’s >>exactly a "me vs. them" because I’m the only one who doesn’t believe >>what they believe. >hmmmm… Well, do you mind if I give you a suggestion? Something you >could perhaps buy for her that might help, if she’s willing to do a >bit of reading? ’Cause to tell you the truth, she’s not acting the >way the Bible directs a wife to act. It doesn’t tell wives to bow >down to men, but neither does it tell wives to *ignore* their husbands >when they disagree with them. FAR from it. >Here’s the book. It’s written with a definite touch of humor, but it >hits home. At least it did with me. >_If_It_Weren’t_for_Eve_I’d_Be_a_Perfect_Wife_, by Terri Camp, ISBN >1-929125-29-1. >There are a couple other books that Chewy and I have found helpful, >but since you’re agnostic, I’ll not point you that way, unless you ask >for them. Good advice in them, even if you’re not Christian, but they >*are* Bible-based books. >>Oh well… I hadn’t expected any answers from here (cause I know the >>answers are things I have to find for myself) but at least I’m getting >>things to think about – which was the whole point of my posting. >>Thanks to those who took the time to read and reply. It’s always so >>hard to see the situation when you’re in the middle of it… >I hope that doesn’t mean you’re taking off. We need more men >participating. :-) >Kitten
No, not taking off. Even if I solve all of these problems, there’s still a great deal of other relationship associated wisdom I’ve found in this group. Question – what faith are "Chewy" and yourself? (And how did he get that monniker?) I’ve talked with some pentacostals in the pentacostal group when all this happened, trying to find things out. One of them was that the believing wife who has a non believing husband should try to make an example of her behavior and faith and life to try to get the nonbelieving husband to come into the same faith – basically live as an example. So yes, that’s not what’s happening here… I’ll pick up that book – she has tons of various books regarding her faith and sundry assorted related things. The question will be how to give it to her without it being a nonverbal accusation. And if you guys have suggestions for me, please feel free to suggest them. I was raised roman catholic, including catholic schools from nursery school through 12th grade, hence the reason I’m an agnostic. But I’m not an atheist – I can’t see that extreme end either – my agnosticism stems from the fact that I can find no way, nor have I found anyone, who has proven the question either way. I couldn’t claim to be an atheist since I can’t prove god doesn’t exist any more than I could claim to be of faith since I can’t prove he does… But when she found this, I spent 4 months or so doing a bible study here at home with her and one of the pastors from her church, I did the studying, etc… I made an honest attempt, even got baptised, but I just never found any belief in myself. That period was about the only time since her conversion that she’d listen to me regarding any issues with her kids… Once that fell through, we were back to where my opinion doesn’t count again. Thanks for any suggestions. John
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:59:52 GMT, john <j…@john.com> wrote: >After she got her "holy ghost" at this church, all that changed. >That’s where she simply flat out refused to acknowledge any need for >participation on my part. After she got her religion, since I didn’t >belive what she believed, suddenly I was no longer qualified to be >involved. Every single decision that has been made – including >changing both of their schools to this church she went to (after we >bought the house specifically because the public schools here were the >best in the area) – were done solely by my wife, without ever even >letting me know anything was happening. Suddenly one day the kids >aren’t going to their school anymore. >When I bring any of these concerns up and say we have to talk and deal >with the issues, she says no we don’t – it’s not a problem with her >and I, it’s a problem between god and I, since I don’t believe in god. >So she flat out refuses to acknowledge there’s any issues to work out, >since it’s all because I don’t believe in god. If I find god, she >thinks everything will magically be right. I even went to her church >a few times, but I just don’t see what they see. >It’s only the last 4 years that things have gone downhill. And it all >started the very day she went to this church. She had never lied to >me until that point – then for 2 weeks she kept all these things a >secret from me until there was no way to hide them anymore. >So for those who replied trying to figure out why there’s such a "me >vs. them" attitude, this is why. In some areas of the problems, it’s >exactly a "me vs. them" because I’m the only one who doesn’t believe >what they believe.
hmmmm… Well, do you mind if I give you a suggestion? Something you could perhaps buy for her that might help, if she’s willing to do a bit of reading? ’Cause to tell you the truth, she’s not acting the way the Bible directs a wife to act. It doesn’t tell wives to bow down to men, but neither does it tell wives to *ignore* their husbands when they disagree with them. FAR from it. Here’s the book. It’s written with a definite touch of humor, but it hits home. At least it did with me. _If_It_Weren’t_for_Eve_I’d_Be_a_Perfect_Wife_, by Terri Camp, ISBN 1-929125-29-1. There are a couple other books that Chewy and I have found helpful, but since you’re agnostic, I’ll not point you that way, unless you ask for them. Good advice in them, even if you’re not Christian, but they *are* Bible-based books. >Oh well… I hadn’t expected any answers from here (cause I know the >answers are things I have to find for myself) but at least I’m getting >things to think about – which was the whole point of my posting. >Thanks to those who took the time to read and reply. It’s always so >hard to see the situation when you’re in the middle of it…
I hope that doesn’t mean you’re taking off. We need more men participating. :-) Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Response:
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:57:20 GMT, "rebecca" <justrebec…@yahoo.com> wrote: >"john" <j…@john.com> wrote in message >news:4j86f0pdmbhgl9q815qourru2ohd436tkj@4ax.com… >> but in doing what I want to do for >> my baby I’m creating an environment that fosters the problem with the >> older step daughter…. >No, you’re really not. There’s a universe of difference between a newborn >and a 20 year old.
I understand that – but if the wife wasn’t staying home, then she’d be contributing to her daughter’s existence, which would help alleviate some of my frustration when both birth parents don’t contribute and the step parent is the only one who has to pay for anything… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> It’s easy to say that if one of my friends came to me with this exact >> same story, I’d say "just get out. Try to find someone it works right >> with, don’t fight the fight if you just keep losing." But that’s not >> so easy to do when it’s you. If we just deal with the wife and I, >> evne the religion isn’t an issue – it’s when we deal with the kids >> that this wall goes up. So when we have good times, we have really >> good times. Things are better than I had ever hoped they could be as >> a child of divorce. So I keep fighting, trying to find a way to make >> those good times the rule, not just the part time status…. >Okay, well, I certainly wasn’t telling you to get out. I was pointing out >that if you don’t deal with the problems you’ve posted in a meaningful way, >and your relationship doesn’t work out, you’re putting yourself in harm’s >way. And this is what brought that up for me: you say you had agreements >with your wife. But the kid still isn’t contributing and your wife has >announced she’s not going to work, like you two discussed. That says to me >one of two things. Either >1) You did _not_ have an agreement, because you and your wife don’t really >communicate well enough for you to realize you didn’t have an agreement or >2) You did have an agreement, and your wife made it without the intention of >keeping it. >#2 is a serious serious marital problem >So which do you think it is? When you and your wife make these agreements, >what’s breaking down? >rebecca
#2. She had planned on going back to work, we both agreed and didn’t have a problem with the agreement. She was happy to have the whole year off, since no other people we knew who were pregnant at that time had the chance to do so – they all went back to work within 4 weeks or so and had to live the hectic life of mothers with infants who had to work. So we were lucky that way – but that was all agreed to before I knew the daughter had no intention of moving out, and that she’d stop doing even the few things she did while she was still in high school around the house. Yes, it’s a serious marital problem – hence the reason I posted in here. Looking for input. I never had a problem with the wife looking out for her children’s best interests – she wouldn’t be a mother if she didn’t. But when she takes it to the extremes now with a daughter who is 2 years legally an adult, I actually look at it as hurting the daughter. She’s learning some bad things about life, and when she *does* eventually get out on her own, she’s going to have a pretty lopsided view of what *should* be. I’ve seen it often enough, where they never had to really work for anything – and when they do, they suddenly just don’t know how to deal with it. When she’s confronted, she still admits that yes, she’s entitled to live for free and not have to do anything because it’s our responsibility. Just like her incident with the car.. She learned that we wouldn’t haul her everywhere at her every little whim when she was 15, but she doesn’t seem to have applied that same entitlement lesson to any other aspect of life… John
Response:
OK, Chewy’s contemplating a reply. We talked a bit abt it over dinner last night, after the feeding was done, before he got called out on an EMS call. (Sometimes I wish he’d stop volunteering, but if he makes that decision, I want it to be one he’s ready for, not made just because he’s tired.) Anyway, my own comments are interspersed below. On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:53:57 GMT, john <j…@john.com> wrote: >I’m trying to get a sense of what I should expect from the situation, >vs. what I think I’ve earned and deserve not just as a stepparent but >as a human adult.
It is my belief that everyone should deserves to be treated with at least a modicum of courtesy and respect. >Background – met my wife in 1992, she had 2 girls from her previous >marriage, 5 and 7 years old. We dated for 3 years, then moved in >together for three years (my way of "testing the water" I guess – my >parents were divorced, and I always said I didn’t want to end up the >same, so I was more cautious in my love life due to that thought).
Cautious is fine. But while we’re being cautious, we also have to make sure we’re not letting our expectations get out of hand. BTDT. >We married in ‘98, and built a house in ‘99. We really got along >well, we were very similar in tastes and personalities, but differed >enough so that we weren’t just carbon copies. >However, I’ve always had issues with her daughters. I remember back >when we first started going out, one night the 7 year old didn’t want >to go to bed when the time came, and as my wife was tucking her in, >the daughter called her a piece of shit. The wife went and got a >cookie to calm the girl down. I looked at this as using positive >reinforcement to set a bad behavior pattern – why reward a child who >just called you a piece of shit?
Not how *I* would have handled the situation. But then, we’re at the point of trying to figure out how to deal with teenage temper tantrums. If you ignore them, often the teen gets just what s/he wanted, time to do whatever without being bugged by adults to get things done the teen needs to get done. We’ve found you have to be creative in consequences. >I know that she had problems with discipline because, being a single >mother, she didn’t want to alienate her daughters by being the >disciplinarian. So in order to avoid that, rather than try to walk >the middle ground between friendship and parent, she strayed, in my >opinion, too far over onto the friendship side.
I’ve no problem with being a friendly parent, but you *do* have to actually *parent*. I’ve had a few people tell me they think I’m too tough on our kids. I’m still trying to figure out just where they got that. <puzzled> >When we moved in together, I had some issues with the way her kids >treated me. I mean, they weren’t openly bad-mouthing me, it was >just that they would selectively decide what was worth listening to, >and what wasn’t. It was as if as long as I was there to pay for >things, my "duty" was fufilled, and there was no reciprocal duty back >in my direction from them.
I hate to say this, but this is a typical kid thing. The kids who *don’t* try this are few and far between, IME. Not that I like when it happens, but it happens with most kids, even those from in-tact families. >And here’s where I start to wonder how much of what I feel / expect is >based on fairness, or am I just being selfish and don’t recognize it >as such… >When we married, my wife was 35 and I was 31. We had been dating >since she was 29 and I was 25. So we weren’t starting out as >teenageers at least – both of us were mature and mostly acted like it >(except when having fun on new years eve or something). >She had been just starting school when we met, and making very little >money in a part time business (house cleaning) she did on the side >while going to school. I was in computers, and made very good money. >So even before we moved in together, I helped out a lot financially.
This is great…. so long as you don’t expect something from the relationship simply because you were being The Guy in the White Hat. >After I asked her to move in with me (I told her I was tired of being >this "part time" pseudo-parent for her kids, that I wanted to be able >to be more of a real father figure, even if just the step-father kind) >and that I wanted her and I to be able to be together more, not just >on dates. So we moved to a place in a different township that was a >huge leap in their lifestyle.
OK, this is where I start having some concerns with the tone of your post. Seriously. You were tired of being a part-time pseudo-parent for the kids? You wanted to be more of a real father figure? Even if "just the step-father kind?" Do you see how that comes across? It leaves me wondering just what your expectations were, where you were coming from, and just *how* you came across to her. >A year after we got married, my father died. My sister and I split a >modest amount of an inheritence, enough to let us clear out debt and >such. So I used a little over 20 grand to pay off the wife’s debt >that she had from the divorce and such previous, paid off her car, >etc… I did the same then with my own debts, so we were debt free.
This is cool. It’s the way Chewy and I would handle things if either one of us suddenly came into a bit of cash. Every @!#$@%@# old bill would be history. Clean slate time. Oh, yeah! :-) As it is, we’ve gotten nearly every one of his old bills from prior to our marriage taken care of and are abt to start on mine – after five years together. >She always said I treated her girls well, so I don’t think I’m just >fooling myself about it. I tried to be a "father" even though I knew >I’d never replace their real father, and I never expected them to call >me "dad".
See, this gets back to the area where I have concerns. I mean, yeah, I try my darnedest to be a good "mom" to OS, YD, and TF (the kid for whom we’re guardians). I want Chewy to be a good "dad" to YS. But we’re working at this from the angle of this household being *one* family. The kids have other parents who are a part of their family, but who are seperate from *this* part of their family. It’s hard to pinpoint. I kinda know where you’re coming from, but I’m wondering what your angle on it is. >I had a very small set of rules, >but the rules I had I enforced. And I didn’t have any rules that >didn’t make sense or have a reason – hence the small number of them.
See, this goes into what’s niggling at me. *YOU* had a set of rules. What was your wife’s input on this? Did the two of you work together to come up with and to enforce these rules? Or were they just *yours*? >First was always "Homework is done first". Before chatting on the >phone, before doing chores, before playing outside or watching TV. I >wanted them to understand that school was the important thing for them >to deal with at this stage in their lives. Other than that, there was >a limit to phone usage and TV watching, just so they wouldn’t grow up >doing nothing but sitting around the house. I wanted them see them >out playing with their friends rather than just sitting around talking >to them. Beyond that, they had chores that had to get done after >schoolwork, and they had to finish their night snack by a certain >time, then of course was bedtime.
These rules aren’t unreasonable. I’m just concerned abt whether or not you and your wife were in this together. >Naturally, as they grew older and hit teens, this was seen as being a >total tyrant… I understand that though, since when you’re a >teenager, everything is about independence and power over your own >life. So even with such a (compared to their friends) minimal "rule >set", I was still evil because I thought they had to have any rules at >all.
Heh. I’ve been told recently that I want OS to be "perfect" and "a goody-two-shoes" because our household rules are "treat yourself and others with courtesy and respect" and "treat things with care." That’s it. I’m still trying to figure out how those two rules make me the Wicked Witch of the West. Chewy and I came up with those rules *together*, but I’m the one who’s the evil one. <shrugs> Ah, well. C’est la vie. Oh, yeah. I’m the one who’s home during the day and who says that I’m *not* taking OS to work if he doesn’t fix any fallout due to difficulties he’s had with those two rules. >I also tried to give them as much power and control and decision >making as they could handle as they grew up, so they’d learn about it.
OK, here’s that niggling thing again. Where was your wife in all this? See the consistency of this throughout your post? >Before we built our house, we had another rule – if something was less >than 2 miles away, the kids could ride their bikes, walk, whatever. >We could certainly offer rides, especially in inclement weather, but >it wasn’t a "given" that they just automatically could get a ride >someplace that was just a mile away. >When we built our house, it was only about half a mile from the high >school. The area would be considered rural suburbs I guess – not >city, but not normal "suburbs" either. Farmland around the >neighborhoods, etc.. And unbeknownst to me, my wife was taking them >to school every morning, even though the school was only a few minutes >walk away, *and* the bus stopped right at the end of our driveway.
See? Here’s the fallout. *You* had *your* rules. But your wife hadn’t bought into them. This is what makes me think that the two of you weren’t working together on this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->It got so bad that the 15 year old came to view us hauling her >everywhere, regardless of where, why, and how far, as her "right". We >"owed" it to her. (using exact words she did when I talked to her >about it one night). I wanted her to learn the difference between >"rights" and "privledges" so I got my wife to
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Response:
"john" <j…@john.com> wrote in message
news:4j86f0pdmbhgl9q815qourru2ohd436tkj@4ax.com… > but in doing what I want to do for > my baby I’m creating an environment that fosters the problem with the > older step daughter….
No, you’re really not. There’s a universe of difference between a newborn and a 20 year old. > It’s easy to say that if one of my friends came to me with this exact > same story, I’d say "just get out. Try to find someone it works right > with, don’t fight the fight if you just keep losing." But that’s not > so easy to do when it’s you. If we just deal with the wife and I, > evne the religion isn’t an issue – it’s when we deal with the kids > that this wall goes up. So when we have good times, we have really > good times. Things are better than I had ever hoped they could be as > a child of divorce. So I keep fighting, trying to find a way to make > those good times the rule, not just the part time status….
Okay, well, I certainly wasn’t telling you to get out. I was pointing out that if you don’t deal with the problems you’ve posted in a meaningful way, and your relationship doesn’t work out, you’re putting yourself in harm’s way. And this is what brought that up for me: you say you had agreements with your wife. But the kid still isn’t contributing and your wife has announced she’s not going to work, like you two discussed. That says to me one of two things. Either 1) You did _not_ have an agreement, because you and your wife don’t really communicate well enough for you to realize you didn’t have an agreement or 2) You did have an agreement, and your wife made it without the intention of keeping it. #2 is a serious serious marital problem So which do you think it is? When you and your wife make these agreements, what’s breaking down? rebecca
Response:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:36:47 GMT, "rebecca" <justrebec…@yahoo.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Well, I’m not a stepfather. I started a reply to you, but you’re pushing on >an old button for me, so I’m just going to spit this out and noodle over the >rest. So you know, my first marriage ended *extremely* badly. I made more >money than my ex, and he spent 2 years in court (where I live, divorce >legally takes 6 months) sucking dry every drop of cash he could get because >"I owed him". So my perspective may be a little more cautious than some of >the other folks here. >What I want to address is this: if you don’t explicitly deal with the >financial issues between you and your wife, you are putting yourself in >jeopardy if the relationship fails. The daughters are just sponging. Don’t >blame them. That’s what kids do. It’s a parent’s job to get them into >self-sufficiency. You have a couple choices there – if your wife wants them >around, decide what it’s costing you, then tell your wife she has to figure >out a way to bring that much money in. You’ve supported them to adulthood, >which was an awesome and kind thing to do. Stop doing it. You can always >leave, if push comes to shove. Unfortunately, now you’ve got a baby to >think about too, so if you can find a way to comfortably work it out, that’s >best for your son. >So back to my point. By passively allowing your wife to ignore what you >want – about the daughters, about her working – you are tacitly agreeing to >her way. If your marriage ends, in many places, that’s taken into >consideration when child support/alimony is determined. I’m not saying >don’t let your wife stay home, if you think that’s best for the baby. But >you should *BOTH* be very clear about your expectations that (a) she will >return to work and (b) when (in a general sense). >I hate saying this to people, there’s just no good way to go about it. But >good, explicit communications and agreements that both sides _actually keep_ >are really things that a good marriage needs, and they protect everyone >involved. >rebecca
Thanks for the info. More to think about. It’s a tough one – without the baby the issue wouldn’t be one, since she’d be working and I wouldn’t feel so much like some anonymous free hotel, and we wouldn’t be having the difference in opinion about when a dependent is no longer a dependent and should at least help out around the house to show an interest in helping contribute to their support.. With the baby, I prefer that she not work – but in doing what I want to do for my baby I’m creating an environment that fosters the problem with the older step daughter…. And she used to agree, when they were younger – she came up with the chore list, since she thought that everyone under the roof should help contribute to it’s upkeep and existence. It’s odd how that changed once they reached adulthood – I would’ve expected it to be the opposite for most people if they’re going to say it’s not needed for one or the other… Course, if there was a simple, "instant fix" solution, none of us would be in here, would we? And I’m still trying to determine just what I’m hoping the post accomplishes – Am I subconsciously just hopeing someone tells me "you’re right" so I feel justified in being angry over the situation? I was looking for external input, since I know that it’s so easy to look at situations you’re not in and see things clearly, but it can be so difficult to do when you’re in the middle of it. Consciously I’m hoping I get some replies with thoughts I haven’t had yet, things to consider to make me look at it from an angle I haven’t seen yet to maybe come up with some ideas and solutions, since the normal "let’s talk about it" hasn’t worked so far. We have great communication in all but two areas – her kids and religion. In each, she just doesn’t want to hear my thoughts since they don’t coincide with her reality… It’s easy to say that if one of my friends came to me with this exact same story, I’d say "just get out. Try to find someone it works right with, don’t fight the fight if you just keep losing." But that’s not so easy to do when it’s you. If we just deal with the wife and I, evne the religion isn’t an issue – it’s when we deal with the kids that this wall goes up. So when we have good times, we have really good times. Things are better than I had ever hoped they could be as a child of divorce. So I keep fighting, trying to find a way to make those good times the rule, not just the part time status…. John
Response:
Well, I’m not a stepfather. I started a reply to you, but you’re pushing on an old button for me, so I’m just going to spit this out and noodle over the rest. So you know, my first marriage ended *extremely* badly. I made more money than my ex, and he spent 2 years in court (where I live, divorce legally takes 6 months) sucking dry every drop of cash he could get because "I owed him". So my perspective may be a little more cautious than some of the other folks here. What I want to address is this: if you don’t explicitly deal with the financial issues between you and your wife, you are putting yourself in jeopardy if the relationship fails. The daughters are just sponging. Don’t blame them. That’s what kids do. It’s a parent’s job to get them into self-sufficiency. You have a couple choices there – if your wife wants them around, decide what it’s costing you, then tell your wife she has to figure out a way to bring that much money in. You’ve supported them to adulthood, which was an awesome and kind thing to do. Stop doing it. You can always leave, if push comes to shove. Unfortunately, now you’ve got a baby to think about too, so if you can find a way to comfortably work it out, that’s best for your son. So back to my point. By passively allowing your wife to ignore what you want – about the daughters, about her working – you are tacitly agreeing to her way. If your marriage ends, in many places, that’s taken into consideration when child support/alimony is determined. I’m not saying don’t let your wife stay home, if you think that’s best for the baby. But you should *BOTH* be very clear about your expectations that (a) she will return to work and (b) when (in a general sense). I hate saying this to people, there’s just no good way to go about it. But good, explicit communications and agreements that both sides _actually keep_ are really things that a good marriage needs, and they protect everyone involved. rebecca "john" <j…@john.com> wrote in message
news:j8q5f09t2uo5dah24edgl7av4b20app8r7@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So I have a step daughter, almost 20 now, who thinks she gets a free > ride. Her mother isn’t making any money now, her father has never > done anything other than the child support, and that’s gone. > But when I feel like I’m only being > used, how long does that financial responsibility have to go on? > I told her since last November that the older girl was going > to have to start contributing somehow in May toward her > existence, whether monetarily or or by action. Of course nothing > happened, and the mother isn’t trying to make anything happen. She > just lets the daughter be. > This year my wife was going to return to work (we agreed to taking > last year off for the baby). She arbitrarily decided that she doesn’t > want to.
Response:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:25:26 -0500, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe <kitten-…@stbrigidsgatefarm-at-peoplepc.com> wrote: >John, I’m forwarding this to my husband before I look through it to >answer some of your points myself. We each are custodial bio-parents, >custodial step-parents, and guardians to an additional child. >Kitten
Thanks. I had originall posted a "version one" of this in alt.support.marriage then I found this group, fleshed it out a bit. But there was a reply in that group that I added some more answers to their questions if you want to save youreselves some time – you may see answers there that might answer some things you’d think to ask. As with the post in there, I won’t get defensive on criticism and such… I know i’m no more perfect than the next person. The day we can’t improve ourselves is the day they close the lid on the coffin… John
Response:
John, I’m forwarding this to my husband before I look through it to answer some of your points myself. We each are custodial bio-parents, custodial step-parents, and guardians to an additional child. Kitten – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:53:57 GMT, john <j…@john.com> wrote: >I’m trying to get a sense of what I should expect from the situation, >vs. what I think I’ve earned and deserve not just as a stepparent but >as a human adult. >Background – met my wife in 1992, she had 2 girls from her previous >marriage, 5 and 7 years old. We dated for 3 years, then moved in >together for three years (my way of "testing the water" I guess – my >parents were divorced, and I always said I didn’t want to end up the >same, so I was more cautious in my love life due to that thought). >We married in ‘98, and built a house in ‘99. We really got along >well, we were very similar in tastes and personalities, but differed >enough so that we weren’t just carbon copies. >However, I’ve always had issues with her daughters. I remember back >when we first started going out, one night the 7 year old didn’t want >to go to bed when the time came, and as my wife was tucking her in, >the daughter called her a piece of shit. The wife went and got a >cookie to calm the girl down. I looked at this as using positive >reinforcement to set a bad behavior pattern – why reward a child who >just called you a piece of shit? >I know that she had problems with discipline because, being a single >mother, she didn’t want to alienate her daughters by being the >disciplinarian. So in order to avoid that, rather than try to walk >the middle ground between friendship and parent, she strayed, in my >opinion, too far over onto the friendship side. >When we moved in together, I had some issues with the way her kids >treated me. I mean, they weren’t openly bad-mouthing me, it was >just that they would selectively decide what was worth listening to, >and what wasn’t. It was as if as long as I was there to pay for >things, my "duty" was fufilled, and there was no reciprocal duty back >in my direction from them. >And here’s where I start to wonder how much of what I feel / expect is >based on fairness, or am I just being selfish and don’t recognize it >as such… >When we married, my wife was 35 and I was 31. We had been dating >since she was 29 and I was 25. So we weren’t starting out as >teenageers at least – both of us were mature and mostly acted like it >(except when having fun on new years eve or something). >She had been just starting school when we met, and making very little >money in a part time business (house cleaning) she did on the side >while going to school. I was in computers, and made very good money. >So even before we moved in together, I helped out a lot financially. >After I asked her to move in with me (I told her I was tired of being >this "part time" pseudo-parent for her kids, that I wanted to be able >to be more of a real father figure, even if just the step-father kind) >and that I wanted her and I to be able to be together more, not just >on dates. So we moved to a place in a different township that was a >huge leap in their lifestyle. >A year after we got married, my father died. My sister and I split a >modest amount of an inheritence, enough to let us clear out debt and >such. So I used a little over 20 grand to pay off the wife’s debt >that she had from the divorce and such previous, paid off her car, >etc… I did the same then with my own debts, so we were debt free. >She always said I treated her girls well, so I don’t think I’m just >fooling myself about it. I tried to be a "father" even though I knew >I’d never replace their real father, and I never expected them to call >me "dad". I had a very small set of rules, >but the rules I had I enforced. And I didn’t have any rules that >didn’t make sense or have a reason – hence the small number of them. >First was always "Homework is done first". Before chatting on the >phone, before doing chores, before playing outside or watching TV. I >wanted them to understand that school was the important thing for them >to deal with at this stage in their lives. Other than that, there was >a limit to phone usage and TV watching, just so they wouldn’t grow up >doing nothing but sitting around the house. I wanted them see them >out playing with their friends rather than just sitting around talking >to them. Beyond that, they had chores that had to get done after >schoolwork, and they had to finish their night snack by a certain >time, then of course was bedtime. >Naturally, as they grew older and hit teens, this was seen as being a >total tyrant… I understand that though, since when you’re a >teenager, everything is about independence and power over your own >life. So even with such a (compared to their friends) minimal "rule >set", I was still evil because I thought they had to have any rules at >all. >I also tried to give them as much power and control and decision >making as they could handle as they grew up, so they’d learn about it. >Before we built our house, we had another rule – if something was less >than 2 miles away, the kids could ride their bikes, walk, whatever. >We could certainly offer rides, especially in inclement weather, but >it wasn’t a "given" that they just automatically could get a ride >someplace that was just a mile away. >When we built our house, it was only about half a mile from the high >school. The area would be considered rural suburbs I guess – not >city, but not normal "suburbs" either. Farmland around the >neighborhoods, etc.. And unbeknownst to me, my wife was taking them >to school every morning, even though the school was only a few minutes >walk away, *and* the bus stopped right at the end of our driveway. It >got so bad that the 15 year old came to view us hauling her >everywhere, regardless of where, why, and how far, as her "right". We >"owed" it to her. (using exact words she did when I talked to her >about it one night). I wanted her to learn the difference between >"rights" and "privledges" so I got my wife to agree to not letting her >get a ride anywhere for a month. Anything she wanted to do, she had to >get there on her own power. >Unfortunately, that "entitlement" mentality seems to be the main >thought for her now, at almost 20 years old and still at home. I told >my wife that I didn’t mind anyone living for free for the first year >after graduation to get their bearings, start college, etc, but that I >thought that once they were out of high school for a year, they should >be considered as adults, since that’s how they want to be treated >anyway, and they should have some responsibility towards the place >they’re living – whether they pay a little something towards room and >board, or whether they do things around the house to help out, >whatever. For me, it’s more about teaching them that things *aren’t* >free, and that you need to earn the things you want or need in life. >That people won’t always give them to you. >The older daughter just sits in her room when she’s at home. She’s >going to school full time, and working part time. But she won’t do a >single thing around the house at all. Nothing. She just thinks that >she’s entitled to live there for free because we "owe" it to her. And >in the summer here now, she still won’t even get a full time job, or >at least a part time job to fill in the hours. She just acts like a >12 year old on summer vacation. >I look at all the things I helped make possible for them, the school >trips I paid for, the things in their lives, and how much better I >think their standard of living was before I came into their lives. >Even their biological father doesn’t do anything, never did anything >other than the measly $220 a month he paid in child support for each. >He certainly hasn’t contributed anything once they got out of high >school. >My wife doesn’t understand where I’m coming from when we argue about >this issue. We have a new baby now, my son who was born in October, >so she stopped working (school teacher). Now we’re only on my income. >So I have a step daughter, almost 20 now, who thinks she gets a free >ride. Her mother isn’t making any money now, her father has never >done anything other than the child support, and that’s gone. Is it >wrong for me to think this is an unfair situation for me? I >understand that when I married my wife, I was also taking on the added >responsibility for her children. But when I feel like I’m only being >used, how long does that financial responsibility have to go on? >My wife and I have a few other issues we’re working on, but the nitty >gritty is that it’s really all based on the kids one way or another. >She doesn’t see anything wrong with the kids not doing any chores, not >doing anything useful around the house. So we argue about it. And >yesterday we had a spectacular fight… But we never fight about >*us*, other than about how it relates to my feelings with *them*. If >it weren’t for the kids, I’m not sure my wife and I would be fighting >at all… >Is it wrong for me to expect some respect from the kids for having >done things to help their lives, for having been there as a step >parent? Is it wrong for me to expect that I’m more than just a >wallet? Or at least is it right for me to expect some obedience in >return for providing them with a home, food, etc? >I can’t help but think that I deserve some respect, if for no other >reason than because I’m one of the adults in the house. But I’m tired >of them just ignoring things I say, or the wife not taking into >consideration anything I say about them that she doesn’t want to hear. >When the youngest was 13, I found out she was sexually involved with >her boyfriend. I had a suspicion for months before I found out for >sure, and mentioned my suspicions to my wife, but she wouldn’t hear of >it – not
… read more »
Response:
I’m trying to get a sense of what I should expect from the situation, vs. what I think I’ve earned and deserve not just as a stepparent but as a human adult. Background – met my wife in 1992, she had 2 girls from her previous marriage, 5 and 7 years old. We dated for 3 years, then moved in together for three years (my way of "testing the water" I guess – my parents were divorced, and I always said I didn’t want to end up the same, so I was more cautious in my love life due to that thought). We married in ‘98, and built a house in ‘99. We really got along well, we were very similar in tastes and personalities, but differed enough so that we weren’t just carbon copies. However, I’ve always had issues with her daughters. I remember back when we first started going out, one night the 7 year old didn’t want to go to bed when the time came, and as my wife was tucking her in, the daughter called her a piece of shit. The wife went and got a cookie to calm the girl down. I looked at this as using positive reinforcement to set a bad behavior pattern – why reward a child who just called you a piece of shit? I know that she had problems with discipline because, being a single mother, she didn’t want to alienate her daughters by being the disciplinarian. So in order to avoid that, rather than try to walk the middle ground between friendship and parent, she strayed, in my opinion, too far over onto the friendship side. When we moved in together, I had some issues with the way her kids treated me. I mean, they weren’t openly bad-mouthing me, it was just that they would selectively decide what was worth listening to, and what wasn’t. It was as if as long as I was there to pay for things, my "duty" was fufilled, and there was no reciprocal duty back in my direction from them. And here’s where I start to wonder how much of what I feel / expect is based on fairness, or am I just being selfish and don’t recognize it as such… When we married, my wife was 35 and I was 31. We had been dating since she was 29 and I was 25. So we weren’t starting out as teenageers at least – both of us were mature and mostly acted like it (except when having fun on new years eve or something). She had been just starting school when we met, and making very little money in a part time business (house cleaning) she did on the side while going to school. I was in computers, and made very good money. So even before we moved in together, I helped out a lot financially. After I asked her to move in with me (I told her I was tired of being this "part time" pseudo-parent for her kids, that I wanted to be able to be more of a real father figure, even if just the step-father kind) and that I wanted her and I to be able to be together more, not just on dates. So we moved to a place in a different township that was a huge leap in their lifestyle. A year after we got married, my father died. My sister and I split a modest amount of an inheritence, enough to let us clear out debt and such. So I used a little over 20 grand to pay off the wife’s debt that she had from the divorce and such previous, paid off her car, etc… I did the same then with my own debts, so we were debt free. She always said I treated her girls well, so I don’t think I’m just fooling myself about it. I tried to be a "father" even though I knew I’d never replace their real father, and I never expected them to call me "dad". I had a very small set of rules, but the rules I had I enforced. And I didn’t have any rules that didn’t make sense or have a reason – hence the small number of them. First was always "Homework is done first". Before chatting on the phone, before doing chores, before playing outside or watching TV. I wanted them to understand that school was the important thing for them to deal with at this stage in their lives. Other than that, there was a limit to phone usage and TV watching, just so they wouldn’t grow up doing nothing but sitting around the house. I wanted them see them out playing with their friends rather than just sitting around talking to them. Beyond that, they had chores that had to get done after schoolwork, and they had to finish their night snack by a certain time, then of course was bedtime. Naturally, as they grew older and hit teens, this was seen as being a total tyrant… I understand that though, since when you’re a teenager, everything is about independence and power over your own life. So even with such a (compared to their friends) minimal "rule set", I was still evil because I thought they had to have any rules at all. I also tried to give them as much power and control and decision making as they could handle as they grew up, so they’d learn about it. Before we built our house, we had another rule – if something was less than 2 miles away, the kids could ride their bikes, walk, whatever. We could certainly offer rides, especially in inclement weather, but it wasn’t a "given" that they just automatically could get a ride someplace that was just a mile away. When we built our house, it was only about half a mile from the high school. The area would be considered rural suburbs I guess – not city, but not normal "suburbs" either. Farmland around the neighborhoods, etc.. And unbeknownst to me, my wife was taking them to school every morning, even though the school was only a few minutes walk away, *and* the bus stopped right at the end of our driveway. It got so bad that the 15 year old came to view us hauling her everywhere, regardless of where, why, and how far, as her "right". We "owed" it to her. (using exact words she did when I talked to her about it one night). I wanted her to learn the difference between "rights" and "privledges" so I got my wife to agree to not letting her get a ride anywhere for a month. Anything she wanted to do, she had to get there on her own power. Unfortunately, that "entitlement" mentality seems to be the main thought for her now, at almost 20 years old and still at home. I told my wife that I didn’t mind anyone living for free for the first year after graduation to get their bearings, start college, etc, but that I thought that once they were out of high school for a year, they should be considered as adults, since that’s how they want to be treated anyway, and they should have some responsibility towards the place they’re living – whether they pay a little something towards room and board, or whether they do things around the house to help out, whatever. For me, it’s more about teaching them that things *aren’t* free, and that you need to earn the things you want or need in life. That people won’t always give them to you. The older daughter just sits in her room when she’s at home. She’s going to school full time, and working part time. But she won’t do a single thing around the house at all. Nothing. She just thinks that she’s entitled to live there for free because we "owe" it to her. And in the summer here now, she still won’t even get a full time job, or at least a part time job to fill in the hours. She just acts like a 12 year old on summer vacation. I look at all the things I helped make possible for them, the school trips I paid for, the things in their lives, and how much better I think their standard of living was before I came into their lives. Even their biological father doesn’t do anything, never did anything other than the measly $220 a month he paid in child support for each. He certainly hasn’t contributed anything once they got out of high school. My wife doesn’t understand where I’m coming from when we argue about this issue. We have a new baby now, my son who was born in October, so she stopped working (school teacher). Now we’re only on my income. So I have a step daughter, almost 20 now, who thinks she gets a free ride. Her mother isn’t making any money now, her father has never done anything other than the child support, and that’s gone. Is it wrong for me to think this is an unfair situation for me? I understand that when I married my wife, I was also taking on the added responsibility for her children. But when I feel like I’m only being used, how long does that financial responsibility have to go on? My wife and I have a few other issues we’re working on, but the nitty gritty is that it’s really all based on the kids one way or another. She doesn’t see anything wrong with the kids not doing any chores, not doing anything useful around the house. So we argue about it. And yesterday we had a spectacular fight… But we never fight about *us*, other than about how it relates to my feelings with *them*. If it weren’t for the kids, I’m not sure my wife and I would be fighting at all… Is it wrong for me to expect some respect from the kids for having done things to help their lives, for having been there as a step parent? Is it wrong for me to expect that I’m more than just a wallet? Or at least is it right for me to expect some obedience in return for providing them with a home, food, etc? I can’t help but think that I deserve some respect, if for no other reason than because I’m one of the adults in the house. But I’m tired of them just ignoring things I say, or the wife not taking into consideration anything I say about them that she doesn’t want to hear. When the youngest was 13, I found out she was sexually involved with her boyfriend. I had a suspicion for months before I found out for sure, and mentioned my suspicions to my wife, but she wouldn’t hear of it – not her little girl. So she let the 13 year old go places and never bothered checking up on her, because she trusted her implicitly. And there was no way I could be right… I have nothing against trusting a child, but that trust, in my opinion, needs to be checked up on once in a while, and you certainly don’t just let a 13 year old go out till midnight or later with a bunch of boys without checking into things. As they prove they earn the right … read more »
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