Question:
palehorse, given the opportunity you should read my posts concerning Jesus’ divinity. My whole point being that neither of God nor Jesus said that Jesus is God. PeterT
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jesus said He is God. Who are we to believe? "peter terry", or God? Given the lack of conclusive Gospel evidence of Jesus himself ever claiming to be the supreme deity, one needs only to understand the history or process behind the development of Catholic doctrine to understand where this most scurrilous claim was derived. In fact there is far more gospel evidence supporting that Jesus claimed not to be God, than supports this Roman Catholic notion- myth of a Jesus God/King deity. Given that this new Christian doctrine and ritual evolved threw a Roman/Greek ethos, one must expect that their traditional pagan belief systems would bleed into and become part of the new Christian vision.The notion that Jesus is God and the idea of a Trinity was officially formulated at and buy the players at the Council of Nicea, where Christianity was made the official state religion of Rome. This council was established and bankrolled by the tyrant and war lord, Sun/god worshipper and Roman Emperor Constantine. True to custom and religious traditions of the Roman and Greek empires and the councils desire to sell the new religion to a predominantly gentile audience/culture, with past tradition Jesus was elevated to a god-king status as were all famous men/rulers of the times.(dead or alive). He was endowed as a God, so that Christianity could compete with rival pagan religions such as Mithras who was popular around the Roman Empire at the time. However the Council of Nicea had great difficulty in making this God-King Jesus stick, given that the gospels or written text of the times heavily contradicted the notion of Jesus being a God. Hence the idea of a Trinity was made up of the components of older pagan concepts of trilogies….the three became one, this way people could understand how this man Jesus was a God. From a strictly Gospel perspective, there is no understanding of Jesus being a God without the doctrine of a Trinity. Having said this however, there is also no conclusive Gospel evidence that Jesus ever believed in or taught the idea of Trinity, either. If one removes a Trinity from Catholic doctrine, the corner stone supporting Jesus as a God is dislodged and everything falls over. Furthermore in additional support that Jesus never claimed to be God: ** John 10:34 "It is written in your law that God said you are Gods. We know what the Scripture says is true forever, and God called those people Gods." ** John 10:36 ((After Jesus was accused of blaspheme for inferring that he was a God, he rebuked this notion by not confirming that he was God, but that he is a son of God. ** John 9:35-37 I am the son of man……not a god!! ** John 1:19 7 34..(When quizzed, even John himself does not believe Jesus to be God, but the son of God.) ** John7:16 What I teach is not my own teaching, but it comes from God who sent me. (Jesus clearly distinguishes himself from God…two separate entities here.) ** Matt3:16-17 Then a voice said from heaven, this is my son with whom I am well pleased. (even God himself saw Jesus as his son. not as his superior) ** My God my God why have you deserted me..Father forgive them for the know not what they do.. father remove this cup of horrors from me..etc (in these instances and others is Jesus speaking to himself..I think not!) ** Matt16:13-17 When Peter said that Jesus is "son of the living God", Jesus in no way responds with assertions that he is God..he congratulates Peter for getting it right. ** John 17:11 Father keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave me,SO THAT THEY MAY BE ONE JUST AS YOU AND I ARE ONE. ( Clearly Jesus identifies himself outside of Godhead and acknowledges the Father in metaphoric terms and not literal. To the degree that he says we too and the father are one in the same, hence giving substance to John10:34) ** Matt 2:2-11 ( wise men worshiped the baby Jesus not like a God, but like a king!!) ** Matt:27 ( clearly a separate distinction is made between the father and the son.) ** Matt 14:32-33 even the disciples new Jesus to be the son of God…not God! THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD THE SUPREME BEING IN NO WAY DIMINISHES THE DIVINITY OF HIS SPIRIT, BUT ENHANCES THE CHARACTER OF THIS MOST REMARKABLE HUMAN BEING. PeterT
Response:
Jesus said He is God. Who are we to believe? "peter terry", or God?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Given the lack of conclusive Gospel evidence of Jesus himself ever claiming to be the supreme deity, one needs only to understand the history or process behind the development of Catholic doctrine to understand where this most scurrilous claim was derived. In fact there is far more gospel evidence supporting that Jesus claimed not to be God, than supports this Roman Catholic notion- myth of a Jesus God/King deity. Given that this new Christian doctrine and ritual evolved threw a Roman/Greek ethos, one must expect that their traditional pagan belief systems would bleed into and become part of the new Christian vision.The notion that Jesus is God and the idea of a Trinity was officially formulated at and buy the players at the Council of Nicea, where Christianity was made the official state religion of Rome. This council was established and bankrolled by the tyrant and war lord, Sun/god worshipper and Roman Emperor Constantine. True to custom and religious traditions of the Roman and Greek empires and the councils desire to sell the new religion to a predominantly gentile audience/culture, with past tradition Jesus was elevated to a god-king status as were all famous men/rulers of the times.(dead or alive). He was endowed as a God, so that Christianity could compete with rival pagan religions such as Mithras who was popular around the Roman Empire at the time. However the Council of Nicea had great difficulty in making this God-King Jesus stick, given that the gospels or written text of the times heavily contradicted the notion of Jesus being a God. Hence the idea of a Trinity was made up of the components of older pagan concepts of trilogies….the three became one, this way people could understand how this man Jesus was a God. From a strictly Gospel perspective, there is no understanding of Jesus being a God without the doctrine of a Trinity. Having said this however, there is also no conclusive Gospel evidence that Jesus ever believed in or taught the idea of Trinity, either. If one removes a Trinity from Catholic doctrine, the corner stone supporting Jesus as a God is dislodged and everything falls over. Furthermore in additional support that Jesus never claimed to be God: ** John 10:34 "It is written in your law that God said you are Gods. We know what the Scripture says is true forever, and God called those people Gods." ** John 10:36 ((After Jesus was accused of blaspheme for inferring that he was a God, he rebuked this notion by not confirming that he was God, but that he is a son of God. ** John 9:35-37 I am the son of man……not a god!! ** John 1:19 7 34..(When quizzed, even John himself does not believe Jesus to be God, but the son of God.) ** John7:16 What I teach is not my own teaching, but it comes from God who sent me. (Jesus clearly distinguishes himself from God…two separate entities here.) ** Matt3:16-17 Then a voice said from heaven, this is my son with whom I am well pleased. (even God himself saw Jesus as his son. not as his superior) ** My God my God why have you deserted me..Father forgive them for the know not what they do.. father remove this cup of horrors from me..etc (in these instances and others is Jesus speaking to himself..I think not!) ** Matt16:13-17 When Peter said that Jesus is "son of the living God", Jesus in no way responds with assertions that he is God..he congratulates Peter for getting it right. ** John 17:11 Father keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave me,SO THAT THEY MAY BE ONE JUST AS YOU AND I ARE ONE. ( Clearly Jesus identifies himself outside of Godhead and acknowledges the Father in metaphoric terms and not literal. To the degree that he says we too and the father are one in the same, hence giving substance to John10:34) ** Matt 2:2-11 ( wise men worshiped the baby Jesus not like a God, but like a king!!) ** Matt:27 ( clearly a separate distinction is made between the father and the son.) ** Matt 14:32-33 even the disciples new Jesus to be the son of God…not God! THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD THE SUPREME BEING IN NO WAY DIMINISHES THE DIVINITY OF HIS SPIRIT, BUT ENHANCES THE CHARACTER OF THIS MOST REMARKABLE HUMAN BEING. PeterT
Response:
Hello peter terry, This is an interesting twist that you have on things. I believe, "nothing ventured, nothing gained." "All is fair in love and war." And, "a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush." If you could explain the correlation of these things to the price of tea in China, I would be the first person to pat you on the back, and say, "you’re a better person than me." In the order of things, God is at the Head of Christ Jesus. Christ Jesus is at the head of those under Him. Does the Truth of these things elude you? When Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the Old Covenant, but to fulfill it, this was to say, that the Old Covenant foretold, and led to Him, Jesus. In all of your meandering, in all of your contemplations, do you still add 2+2 and come up anything other than 4? Would you be like to another I’ve seen post here, and denigrate Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles? Do you pick and choose which Word of the Prophet Jesus, to accept? A Prophet speaks the Truth of God. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. You would seek to demote Jesus, as relates to the plan of Salvation, would you not? Is the plan of Salvation one of your stumbling blocks? You think you have a better Way, than Jesus? Let us hear it. Just say it. I will not be surprised. I expect the detractors. They are nothing new. They are always ready with a quick reply. That is, if they reply. — Sincerely, Robert G. Wolfert P.S. I am yours, in Jesus.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Given the lack of conclusive Gospel evidence of Jesus himself ever claiming to be the supreme deity, one needs only to understand the history or process behind the development of Catholic doctrine to understand where this most scurrilous claim was derived. In fact there is far more gospel evidence supporting that Jesus claimed not to be God, than supports this Roman Catholic notion- myth of a Jesus God/King deity. Given that this new Christian doctrine and ritual evolved threw a Roman/Greek ethos, one must expect that their traditional pagan belief systems would bleed into and become part of the new Christian vision.The notion that Jesus is God and the idea of a Trinity was officially formulated at and buy the players at the Council of Nicea, where Christianity was made the official state religion of Rome. This council was established and bankrolled by the tyrant and war lord, Sun/god worshipper and Roman Emperor Constantine. True to custom and religious traditions of the Roman and Greek empires and the councils desire to sell the new religion to a predominantly gentile audience/culture, with past tradition Jesus was elevated to a god-king status as were all famous men/rulers of the times.(dead or alive). He was endowed as a God, so that Christianity could compete with rival pagan religions such as Mithras who was popular around the Roman Empire at the time. However the Council of Nicea had great difficulty in making this God-King Jesus stick, given that the gospels or written text of the times heavily contradicted the notion of Jesus being a God. Hence the idea of a Trinity was made up of the components of older pagan concepts of trilogies….the three became one, this way people could understand how this man Jesus was a God. From a strictly Gospel perspective, there is no understanding of Jesus being a God without the doctrine of a Trinity. Having said this however, there is also no conclusive Gospel evidence that Jesus ever believed in or taught the idea of Trinity, either. If one removes a Trinity from Catholic doctrine, the corner stone supporting Jesus as a God is dislodged and everything falls over. Furthermore in additional support that Jesus never claimed to be God: ** John 10:34 "It is written in your law that God said you are Gods. We know what the Scripture says is true forever, and God called those people Gods." ** John 10:36 ((After Jesus was accused of blaspheme for inferring that he was a God, he rebuked this notion by not confirming that he was God, but that he is a son of God. ** John 9:35-37 I am the son of man……not a god!! ** John 1:19 7 34..(When quizzed, even John himself does not believe Jesus to be God, but the son of God.) ** John7:16 What I teach is not my own teaching, but it comes from God who sent me. (Jesus clearly distinguishes himself from God…two separate entities here.) ** Matt3:16-17 Then a voice said from heaven, this is my son with whom I am well pleased. (even God himself saw Jesus as his son. not as his superior) ** My God my God why have you deserted me..Father forgive them for the know not what they do.. father remove this cup of horrors from me..etc (in these instances and others is Jesus speaking to himself..I think not!) ** Matt16:13-17 When Peter said that Jesus is "son of the living God", Jesus in no way responds with assertions that he is God..he congratulates Peter for getting it right. ** John 17:11 Father keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave me,SO THAT THEY MAY BE ONE JUST AS YOU AND I ARE ONE. ( Clearly Jesus identifies himself outside of Godhead and acknowledges the Father in metaphoric terms and not literal. To the degree that he says we too and the father are one in the same, hence giving substance to John10:34) ** Matt 2:2-11 ( wise men worshiped the baby Jesus not like a God, but like a king!!) ** Matt:27 ( clearly a separate distinction is made between the father and the son.) ** Matt 14:32-33 even the disciples new Jesus to be the son of God…not God! THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD THE SUPREME BEING IN NO WAY DIMINISHES THE DIVINITY OF HIS SPIRIT, BUT ENHANCES THE CHARACTER OF THIS MOST REMARKABLE HUMAN BEING. PeterT
Response:
G’day Robert…nice post mate 
Well… everyone to their own and the quest for the price of tea in China is to far overrated. Incidentally..was not Jesus a theological provocateur sent to establish a ‘new covenant’..that’s why the traditionalists had him murdered? PeterT
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello peter terry, This is an interesting twist that you have on things. I believe, "nothing ventured, nothing gained." "All is fair in love and war." And, "a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush." If you could explain the correlation of these things to the price of tea in China, I would be the first person to pat you on the back, and say, "you’re a better person than me." In the order of things, God is at the Head of Christ Jesus. Christ Jesus is at the head of those under Him. Does the Truth of these things elude you? When Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the Old Covenant, but to fulfill it, this was to say, that the Old Covenant foretold, and led to Him, Jesus. In all of your meandering, in all of your contemplations, do you still add 2+2 and come up anything other than 4? Would you be like to another I’ve seen post here, and denigrate Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles? Do you pick and choose which Word of the Prophet Jesus, to accept? A Prophet speaks the Truth of God. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. You would seek to demote Jesus, as relates to the plan of Salvation, would you not? Is the plan of Salvation one of your stumbling blocks? You think you have a better Way, than Jesus? Let us hear it. Just say it. I will not be surprised. I expect the detractors. They are nothing new. They are always ready with a quick reply. That is, if they reply. — Sincerely, Robert G. Wolfert P.S. I am yours, in Jesus. Given the lack of conclusive Gospel evidence of Jesus himself ever claiming to be the supreme deity, one needs only to understand the history or process behind the development of Catholic doctrine to understand where this most scurrilous claim was derived. In fact there is far more gospel evidence supporting that Jesus claimed not to be God, than supports this Roman Catholic notion- myth of a Jesus God/King deity. Given that this new Christian doctrine and ritual evolved threw a Roman/Greek ethos, one must expect that their traditional pagan belief systems would bleed into and become part of the new Christian vision.The notion that Jesus is God and the idea of a Trinity was officially formulated at and buy the players at the Council of Nicea, where Christianity was made the official state religion of Rome. This council was established and bankrolled by the tyrant and war lord, Sun/god worshipper and Roman Emperor Constantine. True to custom and religious traditions of the Roman and Greek empires and the councils desire to sell the new religion to a predominantly gentile audience/culture, with past tradition Jesus was elevated to a god-king status as were all famous men/rulers of the times.(dead or alive). He was endowed as a God, so that Christianity could compete with rival pagan religions such as Mithras who was popular around the Roman Empire at the time. However the Council of Nicea had great difficulty in making this God-King Jesus stick, given that the gospels or written text of the times heavily contradicted the notion of Jesus being a God. Hence the idea of a Trinity was made up of the components of older pagan concepts of trilogies….the three became one, this way people could understand how this man Jesus was a God. From a strictly Gospel perspective, there is no understanding of Jesus being a God without the doctrine of a Trinity. Having said this however, there is also no conclusive Gospel evidence that Jesus ever believed in or taught the idea of Trinity, either. If one removes a Trinity from Catholic doctrine, the corner stone supporting Jesus as a God is dislodged and everything falls over. Furthermore in additional support that Jesus never claimed to be God: ** John 10:34 "It is written in your law that God said you are Gods. We know what the Scripture says is true forever, and God called those people Gods." ** John 10:36 ((After Jesus was accused of blaspheme for inferring that he was a God, he rebuked this notion by not confirming that he was God, but that he is a son of God. ** John 9:35-37 I am the son of man……not a god!! ** John 1:19 7 34..(When quizzed, even John himself does not believe Jesus to be God, but the son of God.) ** John7:16 What I teach is not my own teaching, but it comes from God who sent me. (Jesus clearly distinguishes himself from God…two separate entities here.) ** Matt3:16-17 Then a voice said from heaven, this is my son with whom I am well pleased. (even God himself saw Jesus as his son. not as his superior) ** My God my God why have you deserted me..Father forgive them for the know not what they do.. father remove this cup of horrors from me..etc (in these instances and others is Jesus speaking to himself..I think not!) ** Matt16:13-17 When Peter said that Jesus is "son of the living God", Jesus in no way responds with assertions that he is God..he congratulates Peter for getting it right. ** John 17:11 Father keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave me,SO THAT THEY MAY BE ONE JUST AS YOU AND I ARE ONE. ( Clearly Jesus identifies himself outside of Godhead and acknowledges the Father in metaphoric terms and not literal. To the degree that he says we too and the father are one in the same, hence giving substance to John10:34) ** Matt 2:2-11 ( wise men worshiped the baby Jesus not like a God, but like a king!!) ** Matt:27 ( clearly a separate distinction is made between the father and the son.) ** Matt 14:32-33 even the disciples new Jesus to be the son of God…not God! THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD THE SUPREME BEING IN NO WAY DIMINISHES THE DIVINITY OF HIS SPIRIT, BUT ENHANCES THE CHARACTER OF THIS MOST REMARKABLE HUMAN BEING. PeterT
Response:
Given the lack of conclusive Gospel evidence of Jesus himself ever claiming to be the supreme deity, one needs only to understand the history or process behind the development of Catholic doctrine to understand where this most scurrilous claim was derived. In fact there is far more gospel evidence supporting that Jesus claimed not to be God, than supports this Roman Catholic notion- myth of a Jesus God/King deity. Given that this new Christian doctrine and ritual evolved threw a Roman/Greek ethos, one must expect that their traditional pagan belief systems would bleed into and become part of the new Christian vision.The notion that Jesus is God and the idea of a Trinity was officially formulated at and buy the players at the Council of Nicea, where Christianity was made the official state religion of Rome. This council was established and bankrolled by the tyrant and war lord, Sun/god worshipper and Roman Emperor Constantine. True to custom and religious traditions of the Roman and Greek empires and the councils desire to sell the new religion to a predominantly gentile audience/culture, with past tradition Jesus was elevated to a god-king status as were all famous men/rulers of the times.(dead or alive). He was endowed as a God, so that Christianity could compete with rival pagan religions such as Mithras who was popular around the Roman Empire at the time. However the Council of Nicea had great difficulty in making this God-King Jesus stick, given that the gospels or written text of the times heavily contradicted the notion of Jesus being a God. Hence the idea of a Trinity was made up of the components of older pagan concepts of trilogies….the three became one, this way people could understand how this man Jesus was a God. From a strictly Gospel perspective, there is no understanding of Jesus being a God without the doctrine of a Trinity. Having said this however, there is also no conclusive Gospel evidence that Jesus ever believed in or taught the idea of Trinity, either. If one removes a Trinity from Catholic doctrine, the corner stone supporting Jesus as a God is dislodged and everything falls over. Furthermore in additional support that Jesus never claimed to be God: ** John 10:34 "It is written in your law that God said you are Gods. We know what the Scripture says is true forever, and God called those people Gods." ** John 10:36 ((After Jesus was accused of blaspheme for inferring that he was a God, he rebuked this notion by not confirming that he was God, but that he is a son of God. ** John 9:35-37 I am the son of man……not a god!! ** John 1:19 7 34..(When quizzed, even John himself does not believe Jesus to be God, but the son of God.) ** John7:16 What I teach is not my own teaching, but it comes from God who sent me. (Jesus clearly distinguishes himself from God…two separate entities here.) ** Matt3:16-17 Then a voice said from heaven, this is my son with whom I am well pleased. (even God himself saw Jesus as his son. not as his superior) ** My God my God why have you deserted me..Father forgive them for the know not what they do.. father remove this cup of horrors from me..etc (in these instances and others is Jesus speaking to himself..I think not!) ** Matt16:13-17 When Peter said that Jesus is "son of the living God", Jesus in no way responds with assertions that he is God..he congratulates Peter for getting it right. ** John 17:11 Father keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave me,SO THAT THEY MAY BE ONE JUST AS YOU AND I ARE ONE. ( Clearly Jesus identifies himself outside of Godhead and acknowledges the Father in metaphoric terms and not literal. To the degree that he says we too and the father are one in the same, hence giving substance to John10:34) ** Matt 2:2-11 ( wise men worshiped the baby Jesus not like a God, but like a king!!) ** Matt:27 ( clearly a separate distinction is made between the father and the son.) ** Matt 14:32-33 even the disciples new Jesus to be the son of God…not God! THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD THE SUPREME BEING IN NO WAY DIMINISHES THE DIVINITY OF HIS SPIRIT, BUT ENHANCES THE CHARACTER OF THIS MOST REMARKABLE HUMAN BEING. PeterT
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