Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

Have YOU been immersed as a believer?

No but I know an old lady who got her wooden leg stuck in a stormwater drain grating

Response:

etc. We see Baptists today, who STILL insist on full immersion believer’s baptism just as it happened in Jesus’ day, at His insistence. John – Find yourself somewhere that will let you have a bath in exchange for food stamps  - I don’t think all this showering is doing you any good. Lie in the bath with your duckies and toy battleships

I don’t think them is what johnny would play with in the bathtub? And when you pull the plug Imagine your stupidity going down the pipe with the water

Wouldn’t it take an aweful big drainpipe for that much stupid? ujb

Response:

etc. We see Baptists today, who STILL insist on full immersion believer’s baptism just as it happened in Jesus’ day, at His insistence.

John – Find yourself somewhere that will let you have a bath in exchange for food stamps  - I don’t think all this showering is doing you any good. Lie in the bath with your duckies and toy battleships And when you pull the plug Imagine your stupidity going down the pipe with the water

Response:

John, I am not understanding what your difficulty is. Please explain it to me.  I am not very fast so go slow. I have explained it repeatedly, and at least once or twice to you. I asked you to not use the KJV, or at LEAST  to post a warning at the top of your post that you ARE going to use it.

But WE AREN"T GOING TO OBEY ARE WE FOLKS ZAP- KERPOW   –  INCOMING KJV! – Ratta-tatta-tatta +++++++ "Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." (James)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes  copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the group) x-no-archive: yes  copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the group) Interceding Jesus Christ is our Lord, God’s Christ and our Savior and He lives forevermore! Are you certain that you are indeed one of His believing children? As a member of His founded Church, yes.  Are you? When researching the history of the Catholic Church using public sources we find that many times they are reluctant to give the full truth as to when and by whom the Catholic Church was found.  Some are only willing to admit the church existed in the first century but most just avoid the issue altogether. There is no mention whatsoever of the "Roman Catholic Church" in the 1st or 2nd centuries. So get that ridiculous LIE out of your head. Just because they weren’t called that exact name at the time doesn’t mean they weren’t there. Yes, it does.

Please note your stated contradiction to this that immediatly follows.  Remember that distinct words such as "trinity" and "rapture" are not in the Bible. The word "trinity" does not appear, but the concept is repeated multiple times.

I think I see now.  This works only for YOUR beliefs and no one elses. And like you, I don’t find a "rapture" in the Bible. It is certainly not necessary to believe in a "rapture" to be a Christian. I believed in a rapture for MANY years until I read one book. "Christians will Live through the Tribulation…"

What’s so funny is that you don’t even realize you just contradicted yourslelf in the above responses.  Which is it?  "Because something was called that exact name at the time doesn’t mean it isn’t there" OR "if it’s not mentioned it’s not there"? One of those above phrases is true and the other is not. Make up your mind which.  You can’t have it both ways but I suspect you’re going to now justify why you can. "Sunday School" is not in the Bible, Sure it is. What do you call Sabbath School?  Sunday School was merely the Christian version.

But where is the exact word "Sunday" School.  (I’m merely using the same standard applied to me, you know). the term "Reverend" for a minister is not in the Bible, the word "Bible" is not in the Bible, The word "scripture" is.

But the word "Bible" isn’t.  The word "scripture" and "Bible" are different words. Notice the spelling? and many others are not specifically used in the Bible, either. In order for you to remain consistent, get those riduculous lies out of your head. There is neither a pope in the Bible, nor even the concept of a pope.

Matthew 16:18-19. The churches of the New Testament were autonomous.

No they weren’t. The absolute local autonomy of the local church group is a modern construct of today’s Baptists who were formed in the 17th century.  And by the way, democracy is a pagan invention. If the local groups of believers were autonomous, why were the Apostles writing intruction letters to them? Jesus did not leave us without an authority to decide once-and-for-all the disputes in the faith. It would have been cruel indeed for God to leave us without an authority who could definitively decide what’s what. Your cult isn’t. There WERE half-a-dozen denominations mentioned in the New Testament, including the Baptists and the Church of Christ, along with the Christians. There are no denominations in the Bible or among the early Christians. You aren’t reading with a trained eye. What do you call "John the Baptist" if not a "Baptist?"

Right. And they weren’t Christians. They were a distinct Jewish sect that were forerunners of Jesus, his disciples, and teachings.  (and nothing to do with today’s modern created denomination). There is the Church of Christ, there is the Christians, there is The Way. That’s 4 so far.

4 descriptive names for followers of ONE Church. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Merely because you have been taught to ignore the Bible in favor of Roman heresies doesn’t make you right. And I’d suggest you not "get into it" with me, as I’ve probably been a born-again Christian longer than you’ve been alive. There were scattered groups of Christ’s followers who were too new to the world to yet have a distinct and universal consensus as what to call them. Rubbish.  That is NOT what the Bible says. That is simply a lie you were taught, and were taught to not question.

Yes, I was taught not to question God or His Word.  I wouldn’t assume such arrogance and self-proclaimed authority [albeit the Bible's admonition that no Scripture is to be privately interpreted (i.e.. 2 Peter 1:20]). Such profound arrogance is second to only the arrogance and pride of Satan. FYI – the original Baptists are NOT among them. The Baptists in the Bible were followers of John the Baptist, not Jesus. FYI, the followers of John left him and followed Christ when Christ showed up.

If we go by the Bible, there were very few who did this.  John is the only one that records this and he says it was only 2 who left John for Jesus. (John 1:35-40). Not surprisingly, you’re totally ignoring what the Bible says.  I already cited Acts 19 which you ignored. When John was in prison while Jesus was preaching, John still had disciples (Matthew 11:2, Luke 7:18). What about the time John’s disciples went to Jesus to complain about Jesus’ disciples? (Matthew 9:14, Mark 2:18, Luke 5:33). When John was beheaded, AFTER Jesus began his ministry, the Bible says "his" disciples were the ones who buried him and (in Matthew) went to tell Jesus. (Matthew 14:12, Mark 6:29). What about the Mandaeans who are still around and in probability are the remainder of John’s disciples or the same pre-Christian sect John was from? The KEY point that you have sidestepped is the FACT that ALL the 1st C disciples followed Christ with immersion, believers’ baptism

That’s a change of subject (for which there is no difinitive proof for). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have YOU been immersed as a believer? I suggest you review Acts 19:1-5 as an example of how the "Baptist" followers of John had to be properly re-baptized as followers of Christ. AGAIN, you miss the larger point to make your own dot of the  i. jw snip

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes  copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the group) x-no-archive: yes  copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the group) Interceding Still not wiling to include me, eh, IKH? How Christian of you! I’ll pray for your arrogant soul. jw John, I am not understanding what your difficulty is. Please explain it to me.  I am not very fast so go slow. I have explained it repeatedly, and at least once or twice to you. I asked you to not use the KJV, or at LEAST  to post a warning at the top of your post that you ARE going to use it. Your last comment was, you didn’t see the big deal. I said, "how Christian!" You brush aside my needs, totally forgetting 1 Cor 13. And don’t try to play with me! jw snipp

Sorry.

Response:

to say left the following trash brags behind. Follow up not set, lets see if it pretends to understand the word of God. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: be2.nntpserver.com!newsfeed.ultrafeed.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!news feed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06! sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.talk.creationism,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian. biblestudy,alt.religion.christianity,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Xref: newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com alt.talk.creationism:269989 alt.religion.christian.baptist:730358 alt.religion.christian.biblestudy:351455 alt.religion.christianity:320843 alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic:1020712 x-no-archive: yes  copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the group) Interceding Jesus Christ is our Lord, God’s Christ and our Savior and He lives forevermore!  As God is timeless and ageless, so also is Jesus Christ who is God come in the flesh(Matt 1:23).  All of history revolves around Him and everything is held together by Him.  And He lives to intercede for us! Guess he was asleep when he could have interceded for 150,000 people in asia!! Yet, he lives to intercede for us. Interesting concept. Interesting concept that you presume to speak for God.

So then, you are the only one that is allowed that privilege? not really, every xian, or follower off one of the revealed gods of the desert do that sooner or later. In your case, it is normally before you have figured out what is being discussed. Subtle hint, the gods are so evil according to the xian myth, that everyone of the followers have to tell others what they think everything means. Fair example, 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the end of days, that the mountain of the Lord’S house shall be established as the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 2:3 And many peoples shall go and say: ‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths.’ For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 2:4 And He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord. 2:6 For Thou hast forsaken Thy people the house of Jacob; for they are replenished from the east, and with soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the brood of aliens. 2:7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land also is full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots. 2:8 Their land also is full of idols; every one worshippeth the work of his own hands, that which his own fingers have made. 2:9 And man boweth down, and man lowereth himself; and Thou canst not bear with them. 2:10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, from before the terror of the Lord, and from the glory of His majesty. 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be brought low, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. 2:12 For the Lord of hosts hath a day upon all that is proud and lofty, and upon all that is lifted up, and it shall be brought low; 2:13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan; 2:14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up; 2:15 And upon every lofty tower, and upon every fortified wall; 2:16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all delightful imagery. 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be brought low; and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. 2:18 And the idols shall utterly pass away. 2:19 And men shall go into the caves of the rocks, and into the holes of the earth, from before the terror of the Lord, and from the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake mightily the earth. Now, tell the audience what that means, why it was said, & what god means with the message. But then, you can’t. jw

walksalone who accepts that jw thinks it knows what it is talking about, but its posts say there are no indications that he even can read the *word of god*. —  The Hadith Qudsi 6 The first of people against whom judgment will be pronounced on the Day of Resurrection will be a man who died a martyr. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. The Almighty will say: And what did you do about them? He will say: I fought for you until I died a martyr. He will say: You have lied – you did but fight that it might be said [of you]: He is courageous. And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes  copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the group) Interceding Still not wiling to include me, eh, IKH? How Christian of you! I’ll pray for your arrogant soul. jw

John, I am not understanding what your difficulty is. Please explain it to me.  I am not very fast so go slow. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jesus Christ is our Lord, God’s Christ and our Savior and He lives forevermore!  As God is timeless and ageless, so also is Jesus Christ who is God come in the flesh(Matt 1:23).  All of history revolves around Him and everything is held together by Him.  And He lives to intercede for us!  His eternal interest is to be our surety.  Day and night He offers our names before the Father in heaven.  No matter how weak we are, we are kept because Jesus Christ is our eternal High Priest. Our vision is of a risen, victorious, all-powerful and all-wise High Priest.  Quietly, triumphantly He pleads the worth and value of His own life and blood for the preservation and victory of God’s believing children. Are you certain that you are indeed one of His believing children? "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the the sons of God,  even to them that believe on His name"(John 1:12).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes  copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the group) Interceding Jesus Christ is our Lord, God’s Christ and our Savior and He lives forevermore! Are you certain that you are indeed one of His believing children? As a member of His founded Church, yes.  Are you? When researching the history of the Catholic Church using public sources we find that many times they are reluctant to give the full truth as to when and by whom the Catholic Church was found.  Some are only willing to admit the church existed in the first century but most just avoid the issue altogether. There is no mention whatsoever of the "Roman Catholic Church" in the 1st or 2nd centuries. So get that ridiculous LIE out of your head.

Just because they weren’t called that exact name at the time doesn’t mean they weren’t there.  Remember that distinct words such as "trinity" and "rapture" are not in the Bible. "Sunday School" is not in the Bible, the term "Reverend" for a minister is not in the Bible, the word "Bible" is not in the Bible, and many others are not specifically used in the Bible, either. In order for you to remain consistent, get those riduculous lies out of your head. There WERE half-a-dozen denominations mentioned in the New Testament, including the Baptists and the Church of Christ, along with the Christians.

There are no denominations in the Bible or among the early Christians. There were scattered groups of Christ’s followers who were too new to the world to yet have a distinct and universal consensus as what to call them. FYI – the original Baptists are NOT among them. The Baptists in the Bible were followers of John the Baptist, not Jesus.  I suggest you review Acts 19:1-5 as an example of how the "Baptist" followers of John had to be properly re-baptized as followers of Christ. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, that is N O mention of the Roman cesspool until well into the 4th  C.   Below, I have listed a series of citations from non-Catholic sources which are believed to be helpful in apologetics.  When you read them you’ll notice that each one admits certain details but does not discuss other details, of course it would not do well with Protestants if any encyclopedia came forward and stated " The Catholic Church was founded in the first century by Jesus Christ " but occasionally they’re forced to admit part of this truth such as the church existing from the first century or its connection to the apostles of Jesus Christ, is for this reason they become useful. Hogwash.

It’s always been good for a laugh over the last couple of years whenever you post the following.  By your reasoning, I can start my own denomination, call it "The Church of Antioch", then claim its authenticity simply because the same phrase appears in the Bible.  Stop thinking like a 10 year old. In the New Testament are listed Baptists

Void. First, see above.  Second, the current Baptist movement was started by John Symth in England who organized the first Baptist Church in 1609 to take Protestantism to its "logical conclusion."  There were flavors of Baptists in the early days in Germany and Switzerland who baptized infants and children. They were called Pedobaptists. Then there were the Anti-Pedobaptist who were opposed to infant baptism. The Anti-Pedibaptists won out.  Since both were "Baptists", how do you know which was right and which was wrong? Christians

"Christian" is not the name of a denomination though some would have you believe so.  It is a general term for all followers of Jesus, Catholics being Christians descended from the original apostolic group. Church of Christ

Which one? The United Church of Christ came into being in 1957.  The International Church of Chirst began in 1979.  Since there are two, one must be from the Bible, the other must be false (although they’re both 20th century). Please indicate for us which one. The Way

One of the more modern cults which was founded in 1942 by Victor Paul Weirwille who claims God audibly spoke to him. As author of such books called "Jesus Christ is not God," his cult can’t even be closely considered as being Biblically referenced. They deny the Trinity. 7th Day Adventists

Created by proven false visionary Ellen White in the mid-1800’s by combining the false beliefs of wierdo Baptist minister William Miller’s followers, Joseph Bates and Hiram Edson. Judaizers (Calvinists)

The Jewish Christians in the Bible we call "Judaizers" are long gone and have absolutely NOTHING to do with Calvinism.  Calvinism was started by the MAN John Calvin in 1536. NO I mean N  O  mention of the Roman Catholic Cesspool until the 4th C.

The Catholic Church existed since its founding in A.D. 33.  If you want to be really technical, we can say that we who identify ourselves as the current ROMAN Catholic Church didn’t really exist until A.D. 1054 when the Church founded by Jesus split in two with the other half becoming the Orthodox Church. Protestants many times would like us to believe there was no early church structure or for that matter a specific early church and that Constantine "created" the Roman Catholic Church. they would also like us to believe there was no  standardized early church leadership and no universal church leadership, That is correct.  We see absolutely NO "church structure" or "church leadership" or "hierarchy" before the Roman debacle.

You believe pseudo-history, I’ll believe history. all of these were creations of the third and fourth century.  Although as a stated above not everyone the citations is as explicit as we may want them to be their very useful against the pseudo-history. ROMAN CATHOLICISM. The largest of the Christian denominations is the Roman Catholic church. As an institution it has existed since the 1st century AD… lie.

Ostrich Syndrone. Did all those non-Catholic sources stating the Catholic Church was the original upset you that much? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – jw snipped same old same old RCC feces.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes  copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the group) Interceding Jesus Christ is our Lord, God’s Christ and our Savior and He lives forevermore! Are you certain that you are indeed one of His believing children? As a member of His founded Church, yes.  Are you? When researching the history of the Catholic Church using public sources we find that many times they are reluctant to give the full truth as to when and by whom the Catholic Church was found.  Some are only willing to admit the church existed in the first century but most just avoid the issue altogether. There is no mention whatsoever of the "Roman Catholic Church" in the 1st or 2nd centuries. So get that ridiculous LIE out of your head. There WERE half-a-dozen denominations mentioned in the New Testament, including the Baptists and the Church of Christ, along with the Christians.

These were not denominations as we know them today. Certainly they were not the same as the denominations of today. Church history shows the beginnings of these separate denominational groups of today, and it was not back in the NT. No, that is N O mention of the Roman cesspool until well into the 4th  C.

Since Jeremiah 17:9 applies to both your heart and mine, it is fair to say that it is no more of a cesspool than that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Below, I have listed a series of citations from non-Catholic sources which are believed to be helpful in apologetics.  When you read them you’ll notice that each one admits certain details but does not discuss other details, of course it would not do well with Protestants if any encyclopedia came forward and stated " The Catholic Church was founded in the first century by Jesus Christ " but occasionally they’re forced to admit part of this truth such as the church existing from the first century or its connection to the apostles of Jesus Christ, is for this reason they become useful. Hogwash.   In the New Testament are listed Baptists Christians Church of Christ The Way 7th Day Adventists Judaizers (Calvinists)

No denomination of today has NT roots. None. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NO I mean N  O  mention of the Roman Catholic Cesspool until the 4th C. Protestants many times would like us to believe there was no early church structure or for that matter a specific early church and that Constantine "created" the Roman Catholic Church. they would also like us to believe there was no  standardized early church leadership and no universal church leadership, That is correct.  We see absolutely NO "church structure" or "church leadership" or "hierarchy" before the Roman debacle. all of these were creations of the third and fourth century.  Although as a stated above not everyone the citations is as explicit as we may want them to be their very useful against the pseudo-history. ROMAN CATHOLICISM. The largest of the Christian denominations is the Roman Catholic church. As an institution it has existed since the 1st century AD… lie. jw snipped same old same old RCC feces.

Response:

Interceding Jesus Christ is our Lord, God’s Christ and our Savior and He lives forevermore!  As God is timeless and ageless, so also is Jesus Christ who is God come in the flesh(Matt 1:23).  All of history revolves around Him and everything is held together by Him.  And He lives to intercede for us!

Then he should have inteceded when the Asian tsunami wave commenced killing fifty thousand innocent children on His birthday His eternal interest is to be our surety.

Bullshit  Day and night He offers our names before the Father in heaven.

meaningless rubbish No matter how weak we are, we are kept because Jesus Christ is our eternal High Priest.

see above Our vision is of a risen, victorious, all-powerful and all-wise High Priest.

aaaah so you have seen Him have you?  then you are the only one who has.  was He black, Brow, white, bearded.  human?  why human since there are billions of species on this planet, why did you god choose to make man in His own image? He didn’t of course, arrogant man wanted an imaginary power that looked like himself. Pathetic  Quietly, triumphantly He pleads the worth and value of His own life and blood for the preservation and victory of God’s believing children.

AND heard him too – magnificent.  you are on your own Are you certain that you are indeed one of His believing children?

yes one of those 50,000 dead ones – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the the sons of God,   even to them that believe on His name"(John 1:12).

Response:

Interceding Jesus Christ is our Lord, God’s Christ and our Savior and He lives forevermore!  As God is timeless and ageless, so also is Jesus Christ who is God come in the flesh

Rouladen?

Response:

Interceding Jesus Christ is our Lord, God’s Christ and our Savior and He lives forevermore! Are you certain that you are indeed one of His believing children?

As a member of His founded Church, yes.  Are you? When researching the history of the Catholic Church using public sources we find that many times they are reluctant to give the full truth as to when and by whom the Catholic Church was found.  Some are only willing to admit the church existed in the first century but most just avoid the issue altogether.  Below, I have listed a series of citations from non-Catholic sources which are believed to be helpful in apologetics.  When you read them you’ll notice that each one admits certain details but does not discuss other details, of course it would not do well with Protestants if any encyclopedia came forward and stated " The Catholic Church was founded in the first century by Jesus Christ " but occasionally they’re forced to admit part of this truth such as the church existing from the first century or its connection to the apostles of Jesus Christ, is for this reason they become useful. Protestants many times would like us to believe there was no early church structure or for that matter a specific early church and that Constantine "created" the Roman Catholic Church. they would also like us to believe there was no  standardized early church leadership and no universal church leadership, all of these were creations of the third and fourth century.  Although as a stated above not everyone the citations is as explicit as we may want them to be their very useful against the pseudo-history. ROMAN CATHOLICISM. The largest of the Christian denominations is the Roman Catholic church. As an institution it has existed since the 1st century AD…The name of the church is derived from its base in Rome and from a Greek term meaning "universal." The word Catholic refers to the wholeness of the church, and for many centuries the Roman church claimed to be the only true Christian denomination.(Compton’s Interactive Encyclopedia