Question:
JMJ The Holy Scriptures and the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church have always taught that sodomy is an abomination and a stench in the eyes of God. God has destroyed whole societies because of it. It is the same as fornication, adultery and murder. Daily we see the results of a society that worships the Phallic. What sickens me is that apparently the vast majority of effeminized modern Catholics have ceased to believe the unchanging Word of God and have embraced the religion of antichrist. Satan enters the world through sexual concupiscence and deceives the masses of people who would walk in darkness rather than the light. The apostle Paul warns us not to be as the fornicators. Only the liberal unbeliever, the one who says "Did God really say", would even question this. Most Sacred Heart of Jesus have Mercy on us!
Response:
Hello Glenn, Do you think that you have it all down so pat? Do you understand that even in the least of these people, God is there. If you turn your back to ones, such as these, do you yet sin? Who is your neighbor? Do you love him or her? Do you experience a failure of Love? And, do not get me wrong, because I’m not walking on water, at this time, myself? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – JMJ The Holy Scriptures and the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church have always taught that sodomy is an abomination and a stench in the eyes of God. God has destroyed whole societies because of it. It is the same as fornication, adultery and murder. Daily we see the results of a society that worships the Phallic. What sickens me is that apparently the vast majority of effeminized modern Catholics have ceased to believe the unchanging Word of God and have embraced the religion of antichrist. Satan enters the world through sexual concupiscence and deceives the masses of people who would walk in darkness rather than the light. The apostle Paul warns us not to be as the fornicators. Only the liberal unbeliever, the one who says "Did God really say", would even question this. Most Sacred Heart of Jesus have Mercy on us!
You seem to have developed a pretty tough view. How well are you to measure up to your own standard? When you make it harder for others, you will make it harder on yourself, imho. Since, you have staked out some ground for yourself, and put, "the vast majority of effeminized modern Catholics…" in a different camp than yourself, let me venture a guess about you: You are a conservative Catholic, in some stripe, right? You might not be seeing it right now, but, in the bigger picture, your own judgments might find a way to come back at you. I would hope that you will do as well as possible, before the magistrate. — Sincerely, Robert G. Wolfert P.S. Peace be with you, Glenn.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What’s up with all these gays and lesbians these days? They have no place in religion, there’s just no way God or Christ will accept them as believers, it’s a secular thing to state that "they are born this way", God made man and woman to love each other, gays and lesbians don’t want to subscribe to GOD’s laws so why try to get ANY religion to accept them? When I see these unnatural creatures protesting their rights I wish I could point out to them that there’s no such thing as human rights with God, there’s no need for rights for them or me or anyone, there’s only his saving grace, I too am a sinner, but NEVER can a Church of God accept a Gay or Lesbian for what they proclaim to be. Sure, I am too old fashioned, right? No, GOD is the one who is unchanging, he does not accept men’s rights, we have no rights before God, no rights what so ever, and if a sinner comes cloaked with his sins and proclaims that he as (gay/lesbian or what ever) want to be recognised as such by God then he or she approaches God and religion from the human sinfull angle. If God hates gays and lesbians because homosexual sex is a sin, then God must hate you too (since you admit to being a sinner as well).
What I want to know is why sex outside of marriage is a bigger sin for one group than it is for the other. — Alan Ferris eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211 EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div. When the only colour is black – the only sound the broken bell THEN talk to me about why. Spike Milligan www.arcerland.com ICQ UIN: 12811297
Response:
i think it is obvious that exclusive homosexual acts is wrong, its non reproductive for a start
Are you saying that only reproductive sex is good and right? — Alan Ferris eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211 EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div. When the only colour is black – the only sound the broken bell THEN talk to me about why. Spike Milligan www.arcerland.com ICQ UIN: 12811297
Response:
No, I didn’t know that. Do tell? But I DO know this: "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. The persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition" (CCC 2358).
Response:
I hope you are not Catholic.
I hope he IS! 
More importantly, I hope he learns something today and becomes a bit more tolerant and becomes a bit closer to God. best,TTT
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What’s up with all these gays and lesbians these days? They have no place in religion, there’s just no way God or Christ will accept them as believers, it’s a secular thing to state that "they are born this way", God made man and woman to love each other, gays and lesbians don’t want to subscribe to GOD’s laws so why try to get ANY religion to accept them? When I see these unnatural creatures protesting their rights I wish I could point out to them that there’s no such thing as human rights with God, there’s no need for rights for them or me or anyone, there’s only his saving grace, I too am a sinner, but NEVER can a Church of God accept a Gay or Lesbian for what they proclaim to be. Sure, I am too old fashioned, right? No, GOD is the one who is unchanging, he does not accept men’s rights, we have no rights before God, no rights what so ever, and if a sinner comes cloaked with his sins and proclaims that he as (gay/lesbian or what ever) want to be recognised as such by God then he or she approaches God and religion from the human sinfull angle. R.
i think it is obvious that exclusive homosexual acts is wrong, its non reproductive for a start but bisexuality seems fine , lotsa fun with anyone, its more like foreplay and masturbation than sex anyway so i would only condemn those people who irrationally think that they are exclusively gay i have no idea whether god loves them or not cheers andrew
Response:
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Christ might not "hate" someone, but he surely condems sinners and he HATES SIN. I don’t think anyone would disagree with that.
How about the expression, "hate the sin, love the sinner?" Jesus came to save the sinner, not to condemn them. IMHO, He hung around with the regular folk, not the upright people who believed they were doing everything right. Put that kind of understanding into the light of our current times. How should it work for persons who would work at being disciples of Christ, today? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (And I will be the first to admit that I too am a sinner) Maybe I ought to have explained this before I posted what I did. I see on the news that gays and lesbians demonstrate against your (?) church as they want to be acknowledged as gays and lesbians and THUS be accepted in to the Church. OK. I am going to go out on a limb here. What I am about to say is only my OPINION. I respect your view that the homosexual act is wrong. IMHO, most Christians would agree. There are some who would not agree however. I see The Church, or maybe any church, as being something that does their best to do God’s will. In view of Tradition, doctrine, and Sacred Scripture, it is very fair to see how The Church says that the homosexual act is wrong. Being is their knowledge is limited (they are not an oracle and must obtain knowledge just like everyone else), IMHO, when addressing an individual and their sins, perhaps The Church takes a "better to be safe than sorry." attitude.
If God wanted a person to know something, God has ways uncounted to cause a person to know that something. God could put it straight away into a person’s heart, if He wanted to. Look at what God did to open up the eyes of St. Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles, when he was a persecuter against the Christian faithful. I would say that what happened to St. Paul was an attention getter. Each person in this life makes choices. The path that we follow in this life, offers us choices, uncounted. Every decision that we make puts us onto a new fork in that road that is our life. We are responsible to have a care for the choices we make. How would the expression that says, "good intentions pave the road to hell," fit into this line of reasoning? If a person becomes hardened into their sin, how are they to see the way out? Even with a plank stuck in your eye, when someone calls for help, you are to reach out with your hand, though blindly, and help them to safety, though what is wrong with them may be nothing more than a splinter in their eye. In this life we lead today, oftentimes it does look like the blind do in fact, lead the blind. And that ditch might be right in front of them. What will happen to them? If God grants us the grace to continue in the lives that He allows for us, then we continue. The clues to how we should live are given to us all, everyday. Even the homosexual element within society, know of the truth, generally. They (in general) would be hardened in the sin that they commit themselves to, IMHO. They seek (again, in general) to have their lifestyles, normalised, by the general society. Is this practice to be condoned? If their lifestyle (homosexuality) is wrong, even though in our day and age, it not being the polically correct thing to say (I’ve never been much of a believer in what is politically correct), are we not supposed to say, "hey, what’s this going on here, this is wrong (homosexuality)." There is a time for all seasons, as the proverb goes. Sometimes, there needs to be something said. Sometimes, it is a time to be quiet. Learning of the difference, here, is part of what goes into our development in our discipleship to Christ. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One example that comes to mind is baptizing infants. To my humble and weak understanding, The Church doesn’t know BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that one can enter heaven without baptism, even with the absurd implications and consequences of such a belief. Of course this is another issue and isn’t relevant. It is only relevant to the point of one at least understanding why The Church does what it does concerning baptism. They are not in the business of playing guessing games, or leading anyone astray. In the same light, it is my HUMBLE opinion that The Church doesn’t know beyond a shadow of a doubt on the homosexual issue either. That is why it is very quick to condemn the homosexual act. To be fair to practicing homosexuals, The Church can’t find anyway, even in the slightest, to ever be able to say that the act is OK. It reminds me of a favorite full gospel preacher from my hometown. He used to tell a tale of one "going to hell and looking for the preacher that lied to him." (You’d have had to be there to get the full impact) So, in that aspect, I do not see the Church ever getting lax on this issue. In their "mind" it would be too irresponsible. What if they gave the wrong information? Better to be safe than sorry perhaps. But I am just a human being. I really don’t know all of the answers. There are some people who can give very good arguments (even in light of scripture) as to why they think that a homosexual relation is not condemned by God. I do respect those arguments. Whether I agree or disagree is not relevant. What I am getting at is, IMHO, the essence of why it is so important to not judge, and to treat everyone with love, kindness, equal rights, etc. It is the other side of the "better to be safe than sorry" coin. I am very slow to condemn anyone, and I believe this to be in line with scripture, the Churches teachings, and God’s will.
If we judge, then that measure that we use to judge others would be used to judge us. This is fair and just. The problem that comes of being quick to judge, is that we do not consider the fuller impact, or ramifications of our judgement. Oftentimes, the measure we would use to judge another, would come back on ourselves, and condemn us, unbeknownst to us. In that we are to be slow to anger (one of my weak points), we should also be slow to judge (imho). We should be taking a good while to consider the fuller impact of our thoughts. It is a misconception to say we are not supposed to judge (imho), though. We are told to love our enemies. In what practical ways could this be lived? Most of us, most of the time, do not live this part of the calling to discipleship in Christ, (imho). This would be one of the big items that holds us back, from seeing a bigger picture, the way we aught to. We would give love to those who show us love, but how about to those who show us hate, what do we give back to them? The common way this is practiced is that we give back the hate that they would show us (imho). What are we to gain for this? Nothing. We are not to be in the business of condemning anybody, in this life (again, imho). It is not for us, in this life to be saying that, so and so, is going to hell. Those who talk like this, have a date set with the magistrate. Their measure will put put up against themselves, and we’ll see how well they do. There is trouble to be had, by playing loose with the judgements. There should be a sign that reads, "JUDGE AT YOUR OWN RISK." ;~) A person puts themselves in potential harms way, by judging recklessly. How about the expression, "when good men do nothing, evil flourishes?" We are expected to stand up and be counted. Our voices should be made to be heard from the rooftop, or mountaintop, so to speak. Our two cents worth, should be out there, in the mix, somewhere. Words mean things, so choose your words carefully. Speak carefully. Be wary of what you open yourself up to. Having an open mind can have consequences, like being poisoned (in your thoughts), and not even being aware of it. That would seem to me to be one of the bigger problems, we face today. The influences that are out their, are mind numbing. A person should (generally) not heed the critisism, "keep an open mind." Usually, (imho) when that is said, trouble is not far away. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a very touchy issue. I am not trying to make you believe something that you do not believe, nor am I trying you to go against what you most sincerely believe to be God’s will. I think you will have to admit that your first post was a little less than diplomatic. Look at your Subject heading!!! However, when putting a bit more thought into your comments, you see that God doesn’t hate anyone, and nor should us. However, in that line of thinking, I think perhaps you and I can both see something dangerous: the potential for some churches, groups, people, etc. to focus on the hatred side of things when speaking in a lazy language that may have unintentional applications. There are people out there that would kill homosexuals in the name of God while waving their "God Hates Fags" banner. I am not accusing you of being anything like that. I am getting the impression that you are, if anything, very far removed from that type of thinking. However, everyone may not have been able to see through that in your first post. However, that type of thinking (fag bashing) does get its fuel from somewhere. It is my opinion that such hatred comes
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Response:
Christ might not "hate" someone, but he surely condems sinners and he HATES SIN.
I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. (And I will be the first to admit that I too am a sinner) Maybe I ought to have explained this before I posted what I did. I see on the news that gays and lesbians demonstrate against your (?) church as they want to be acknowledged as gays and lesbians and THUS be accepted in to the Church.
OK. I am going to go out on a limb here. What I am about to say is only my OPINION. I respect your view that the homosexual act is wrong. IMHO, most Christians would agree. There are some who would not agree however. I see The Church, or maybe any church, as being something that does their best to do God’s will. In view of Tradition, doctrine, and Sacred Scripture, it is very fair to see how The Church says that the homosexual act is wrong. Being is their knowledge is limited (they are not an oracle and must obtain knowledge just like everyone else), IMHO, when addressing an individual and their sins, perhaps The Church takes a "better to be safe than sorry." attitude. One example that comes to mind is baptizing infants. To my humble and weak understanding, The Church doesn’t know BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that one can enter heaven without baptism, even with the absurd implications and consequences of such a belief. Of course this is another issue and isn’t relevant. It is only relevant to the point of one at least understanding why The Church does what it does concerning baptism. They are not in the business of playing guessing games, or leading anyone astray. In the same light, it is my HUMBLE opinion that The Church doesn’t know beyond a shadow of a doubt on the homosexual issue either. That is why it is very quick to condemn the homosexual act. To be fair to practicing homosexuals, The Church can’t find anyway, even in the slightest, to ever be able to say that the act is OK. It reminds me of a favorite full gospel preacher from my hometown. He used to tell a tale of one "going to hell and looking for the preacher that lied to him." (You’d have had to be there to get the full impact) So, in that aspect, I do not see the Church ever getting lax on this issue. In their "mind" it would be too irresponsible. What if they gave the wrong information? Better to be safe than sorry perhaps. But I am just a human being. I really don’t know all of the answers. There are some people who can give very good arguments (even in light of scripture) as to why they think that a homosexual relation is not condemned by God. I do respect those arguments. Whether I agree or disagree is not relevant. What I am getting at is, IMHO, the essence of why it is so important to not judge, and to treat everyone with love, kindness, equal rights, etc. It is the other side of the "better to be safe than sorry" coin. I am very slow to condemn anyone, and I believe this to be in line with scripture, the Churches teachings, and God’s will. This is a very touchy issue. I am not trying to make you believe something that you do not believe, nor am I trying you to go against what you most sincerely believe to be God’s will. I think you will have to admit that your first post was a little less than diplomatic. Look at your Subject heading!!! However, when putting a bit more thought into your comments, you see that God doesn’t hate anyone, and nor should us. However, in that line of thinking, I think perhaps you and I can both see something dangerous: the potential for some churches, groups, people, etc. to focus on the hatred side of things when speaking in a lazy language that may have unintentional applications. There are people out there that would kill homosexuals in the name of God while waving their "God Hates Fags" banner. I am not accusing you of being anything like that. I am getting the impression that you are, if anything, very far removed from that type of thinking. However, everyone may not have been able to see through that in your first post. However, that type of thinking (fag bashing) does get its fuel from somewhere. It is my opinion that such hatred comes from peoples less than accurate view of God’s word. A sort of de-evolution takes place. An analogy is the whisper game that goes around in a circle. I just think it is not possible to be careful enough in these types of issues. Don’t misunderstand me. There is certainly nothing wrong with one having convictions that the homosexual act is a grave depravity and a sin to be condemned by God. In fact, this is what the Church teaches. There is certainly nothing wrong with expressing these beliefs to an individual in a very delicate, private, constructive manner, if one thinks they are trying to help an individual that is on the wrong path. Saying Christ hates Gays, they will all go to hell unless they turn from there wicked ways, is not constructive regardless of the good intentions of the individual. It has been my experience that this will lead some people even FURTHER from God. You CAN surely not expect to enter a church as a practising g. or l. and expect the church to speak out for your "human rights"… They want to be practising AND Christian,
Where do we draw the line? Go look in any church. Sooner or later, you will find individuals who appear to continue to sin, make no effort to stop, but keep going to church anyway. What do we want to do, tell them to stop coming to church? And that is why, IMHO, that the Church teaches what it does. All I am saying is that I don’t concern myself with the folks on my pew and whether or not they are worthy to go take the Eucharist, communion, or whatever. I do my best to not concern myself with an attitude "I know what they did Friday night, and now they are here in church." IMHO, THAT is what is a bit to far and goes against my understanding of God’s will. we ought to be very carefull to speak of homosexuality as a disease.
All I am saying is that we ought to be very careful when speaking about things we don’t really know period. I am not a psychologist and I am not a homosexual. For me, that is at least 2 good reasons why I can never really know for sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt. So, I don’t condemn. I treat homosexuals with the dignity and respect that they deserve. In fact, it isn’t even an issue. But, if a friendship grew to where I could talk a little more personal, the issue would eventually come up. I knwo I will get slammed for this, but I don’t really have an opinion one way or the other on whether or not the homosexual act is wrong. I know what the Church teaches, and I know all the scripture that a great deal of that comes from. That puts me in a situation that requires care. I am fully aware of a responsibility to witness, and I certainly don’t compromise that responsibility. I feel I should make them aware of that information, where it comes from, why it is what it is, etc. But then, they must do with it what they will do with it. You can lead a horse to water… But I think we should all be careful not to scare the horses and have them running away!!! :-) IMHO, that is why witnessing is such a complicated and delicate issue. It requires one’s 100% tactical thinking in how best to witness for maximum results. I will give you an extreme examples. I have a very good friend that is an atheist. I have been "witnessing" for years in a most delicate way. I do this by trying to be the best person that I can be. I am always quick to agree with this person when I see something foolish in the headlines in the name of religion. I easily show how faith doesn’t have to go against reason and science, etc. I have a long way to go, but I have made FAR more progress than the misinformed, but good intentioned bible believer throwing Chick Tracks and condemning their beliefs in front of their face. I am not trying to rub your face in your last post, I am trying to make a point. I think there is a much better person at work here than that initual post would ever show. But let me ask a few guessing questions? Is it likely that a gay person ran across your post and said, "goodness, I didn’t know God hated me! I had better non be gay anymore and follow Jesus." That is not very likely. What is, from my experience, FAR more likely is that any Gay who may read your posts could perhaps be pulled further away from God for many, many reasons. Perhaps they are smart enough to see the error in the post, but not wise enough to not equate it with all religion, period. Perhaps, they DO believe and don’t go to church, don’t try to find salvation, they give up, so to speak, because they don’t ever see any hope of every being able to live up to the standard. Or perhaps they look at that and say, "See, that is why religion is dumb, and I am an atheist." The potential for damage just can’t be known. But who am I, certainly I should "love my neighbour" and be forgiving (7×7 fold etc) but if a sinfull group of people accuse any church, yours or mine, of not wanting to accept them as believers when they flaunt their sin in their actions then it is not a matter of "their rights" or "my forgivenness" or "the churches doctrine" but it is an open attack upon the church.
Maybe I am missing your point. Any church should NEVER not accept them as believers. I would hope that there is not a church that would close its doors to anyone. Concerning what you are saying, some of these people have high very convictions and will fight for what they believe to be Truth with the highest of passions. I respect them for that. I also respect the Church for not bending on what it sees to be Truth. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I pray that God forgives me if I am too "bold" in my statements, but I do believe that the secular world and a lot of churches go too far in respecting "human" rights.
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Response:
What’s up with all these gays and lesbians these days? They have no place in religion, there’s just no way God or Christ will accept them as believers, it’s a secular thing to state that "they are born this way", God made man and woman to love each other, gays and lesbians don’t want to subscribe to GOD’s laws so why try to get ANY religion to accept them? When I see these unnatural creatures protesting their rights I wish I could point out to them that there’s no such thing as human rights with God, there’s no need for rights for them or me or anyone, there’s only his saving grace, I too am a sinner, but NEVER can a Church of God accept a Gay or Lesbian for what they proclaim to be. Sure, I am too old fashioned, right? No, GOD is the one who is unchanging, he does not accept men’s rights, we have no rights before God, no rights what so ever, and if a sinner comes cloaked with his sins and proclaims that he as (gay/lesbian or what ever) want to be recognised as such by God then he or she approaches God and religion from the human sinfull angle. R.
Response:
Rick, Christ hates no one. You have a hint of truth in your statements, but it is terribly misguided. The Church does teach that the homosexual act is one of "grave deparavity." Obviously you and the Church agree here. However, it also teaches that one simply being homosexual is not a sin. In fact, it is almost common sense if one thinks about a homosexual being in that state through no fault of there own. Whether one is truly homosexual or not is certainly for no one else to decide, except for the individual. The Church teaches that homosexuals are called to a life of chastity. They also teach that homosexual people need to be treated with the same human dignity, respect, rights, etc. in reference to justice, religion, and anything else. Any type of hatred or injustine must not be tolerated. To add to that, there are some people who have differing opinions on the above. There are some good people who do not believe the Church has a strong arguement here when closely examining the biblical references, doctrine, when weighed with the society 2000 years ago and the limited psychological knowledge. In short, some people with conviction and good conscience see nothing wrong with homosexual acts. Now, I am NOT asking you to go that far, and need I remind you that The Church doesn’t teach that. Lastly, remember that we ALL fall short in the eyes of God. Isn’t it reasonable to hold homosexuals to the same standard? That is why Jesus came, am I right? Even the 12 apostles couldn’t keep from screwing up. None of us have a chance. I don’t know whether or not you are a Catholic or not. I certainly can’t quote bible verses off of the top of my head. However, I know enough to make this point: Let me assume that you wan’t to find all of your answers in the bible. If you hate homosexuals and/or think God hates them, you will find contradictions in the bible. If you accept the fact that God hates no one, you should hate no one, and merely BEING a homosexual is not a sin, you will find no contradictions in the bible. I am not trying to be mean, but I must say my peace: Unless I had a Phd in Psychology AND I was a homosexual, I wouldn’t make the careless mistake of having ANY comment on whether or not a homosexual born that way or not. I hope this helps, Best, TTT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What’s up with all these gays and lesbians these days? They have no place in religion, there’s just no way God or Christ will accept them as believers, it’s a secular thing to state that "they are born this way", God made man and woman to love each other, gays and lesbians don’t want to subscribe to GOD’s laws so why try to get ANY religion to accept them? When I see these unnatural creatures protesting their rights I wish I could point out to them that there’s no such thing as human rights with God, there’s no need for rights for them or me or anyone, there’s only his saving grace, I too am a sinner, but NEVER can a Church of God accept a Gay or Lesbian for what they proclaim to be. Sure, I am too old fashioned, right? No, GOD is the one who is unchanging, he does not accept men’s rights, we have no rights before God, no rights what so ever, and if a sinner comes cloaked with his sins and proclaims that he as (gay/lesbian or what ever) want to be recognised as such by God then he or she approaches God and religion from the human sinfull angle. R.
Response:
Christ might not "hate" someone, but he surely condems sinners and he HATES SIN. (And I will be the first to admit that I too am a sinner) Maybe I ought to have explained this before I posted what I did. I see on the news that gays and lesbians demonstrate against your (?) church as they want to be acknowledged as gays and lesbians and THUS be accepted in to the Church. You CAN surely not expect to enter a church as a practising g. or l. and expect the church to speak out for your "human rights"… They want to be practising AND Christian, that’s just a bit too far, Christ does NOT accept double standards, he does hate sin, and what these people do is sinfull in the extreme, it is a direct violation of God’s creation, God did not create people as homosexuals and whereas certainly will accept that the fall in to sin caused illness and strife I think we ought to be very carefull to speak of homosexuality as a disease. But who am I, certainly I should "love my neighbour" and be forgiving (7×7 fold etc) but if a sinfull group of people accuse any church, yours or mine, of not wanting to accept them as believers when they flaunt their sin in their actions then it is not a matter of "their rights" or "my forgivenness" or "the churches doctrine" but it is an open attack upon the church. I pray that God forgives me if I am too "bold" in my statements, but I do believe that the secular world and a lot of churches go too far in respecting "human" rights. Any Church must work from the viewpoint of God’s rules, not something that man makes up, if we have commandments then we ought to try and keep them. If it says "thou shalt not kill" then we can’t simply excuse murderers by claiming insanity etc. Anyhow, I better leave it at that, I’d probably be burned on the stake in the middle ages by now… Rick. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
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