Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

: : Hi Chris: : : I was hoping you could tell me difference between Lutheran and Catholic, : besides the authority of the Pope.  I’ve been to Episcopalian funerals : and I : was blown out the way the said the Apostles Creed.  They left in the part : of : believing the Holy Catholic Church and the communion of saints.  What’s : your : creed like, that is, if you all say it? : : Monica : : "To the world you might be one person, but to one person you might be : theworld." : :  Lutherans don’t buy purgatory : : This is most certainly true. : : or confessing to a priest. : : Actually, auricular confession is practiced for those who want it (I’ve had : occasion to use it twice since my confirmation about five years ago).  We : have congregational confession and absolution at every single Divine Service : every single Sunday. : : Communion is : different also, they don’t think they are eating flesh and blood. : : Actually, that is only half-true.  We believe that we are eating the true : Body and Blood of Christ in, with and under the bread and wine.  We haven’t : defined it like Rome did at Trent.  We, however, argue vehemently from : Christ’s Words of Institution that the elements are Christ’s true Body and : Blood given and shed for us for the forgiveness of sins. Which Scriptures does your religion reference to validate its ‘Christ’s Word of Institution’?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Chris: I was hoping you could tell me difference between Lutheran and Catholic, besides the authority of the Pope. The two biggest, most important difference between Rome and Luther are our basis for authority (i.e., Sola Scriptura, meaning that Scripture is the sole source of authority) and the doctrine of Justification Sola Gratia (Grace alone) and Sole Fide (Faith alone). Correction.. The Catholic Church agrees with the "sola Gratia" part, but "Sola Scriptura" and "Sola Fide" do distinguish us. We believe in Traditian as well as Scripture, and we say that God, when he justifies us, infuses other virtues besides Faith (or actually "Hope" which is what Catholic theology calls the supernatural virtue of trust in God to save us). Well, since we define grace differently, I’m not completely sure that it’s completely accurate to say that Rome agrees with Sola Gratia. Well, regardless of whether grace is defined differently or not, the Roman Catholic Church says that justification is by grace alone. The contrary position is called the heresies of Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism. Faith alone is a whole ‘nother thing. There is a sense in which we can agree that justification is by "faith alone," but it is a limited sense. Trent discusses this: "we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God" (sixth session chapter XIII) So, justification is a process…If I understand the Catholic position (which I do better than I did just two months ago), we cooperate with God to be made more and more holy until we die…

I would simply say "that’s right" but I have to be careful here because I know that when many Protestants say things like "Catholics say ‘we cooperate’" they mean to accuse Catholics of presuming to add something to grace. We believe that the cooperation is _itself_ a grace, a gracious gift from God–so it is still grace alone, from beginning to end. That being said, I would say that you have it right, that is the Catholic position. where we are finished in purgatory so we can be made acceptable to God.  This is where Rome and the Reformers (especially Luther) parted company.  We say that our santification (that’s the process part) is based on the fact that, in Christ, we are already holy and the the imputed righteousness (the justificaiton part) is then poured out upon us through Word and Sacrament we are made holy *because* we are already holy in Christ.   The difference is that between indicative (what we are) and imperative (and what we are to do).

I confess that I don’t understand your concept of imputation of righteousness. Of course Catholics talk about the imputation of Christ’s righteousness too (it’s in the Bible after all) but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t mean the same thing. Catholics connect it with forgiveness, strictly speaking. In the act of forgiving, strictly speaking, Christ’s righteousness is imputed to you and your sins are not, but justification is more than just that act of forgiveness, it also includes literally and really being made righteous (just). I was at a baptism/confirmation the other day. The priest said in the homily that if you have been baptized you are _already_ holy but at the same time you can increase in holiness. And that once being justified, you can continue to be justified (which is tridentine language for sure). Generally speaking, though, "sola fide" is not Roman Catholic, nor is "sola scriptura." On sola fide, if you define faith as mere mental assent, that is correct…even from the Reformation perspective.  Complete faith includes what you call hope.  As to sola scriptura, we aren’t fundamentalists (at least not in the modern sense of the word).  Tradition is allowed (at least on the Lutheran side) as long as it doesn’t conflict with scripture *and* is always made subordinate to scripture.

That is definitely a real difference. We don’t subordinate tradition to scripture but see them as equally authoritative. Implied in that idea is the idea that we don’t think they ever conflict with each other, of course. So if you see two things from scripture, for example, that seem to conflict, you aren’t interpreting them correctly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Truth to tell, I have found myself explaining Catholic ideas to many protestant friends that I have since they have little understanding of what they really are.  This includes Mary, confession (which we have, too), the Real Presence (which we have too), and even mortal/venial sin distinctions. Doesn’t mean I’d become a Catholic, mind you, but it shows that knowledge is profitable. If you want to know the Reformation position, I can direct you to a real good source.  It’s at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals website. Go to:  www.alliancenet.org Click on Radio Programs Click on White Horse Inn (Listen here) Click on Broadcast Archives. They’re doing a series on Romans that really goes into the Reformation doctrines on Justification.  The White Horse Inn is a broadcast that has two Reformed, one Lutheran (my fave), and a Baptist (much to Carlos’ chagrin I’d bet <g) who disuss various theological issues.  They also talk about how modern American evangelicalism is very similar to Rome on justification (without the comfort of the sacraments, I might add…I’d rather be a medieval Catholic than a modern American evangelical…at least there’s comfort in confession and the eucharist). I think the White Horse Inn is great I’ve met Mike, Kim, and Rod.  Great guys. but when they talk about Roman Catholicism they usually get it wrong in one way or another. That’s true.  But since few take the time to look at the other side (i.e., Reformation looking at Catholic), they only go based on what they see…i.e., Carlos, CB, etc.  I was looking at some of Jack Chick’s stuff in light of what I know about Catholicism and even what I believe as a Lutheran and I find that he’s way, way off base (his discussion of the Sacraments, church history, etc.).  He’s got salvation by grace through faith right, but he’s also a Semi-Pelagian Arminian at the same time…sad.

My parents and the family I came from are Arminian. I think you are quite right that there are some ways Roman Catholics are closer to old-fashioned Methodists and their offshoots and other ways we are closer to strict Calvinists and traditional Lutherans. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is something peculiar about the Reformation divide. Do you mean the divinde between Rome and the Reformation or the divide between Calvin and Luther (Luther was, of course, right <g)? Of course we differ, that’s the whole point, but it’s peculiar that both sides have trouble correctly saying what the other side teaches and what exactly the difference is. Rarely do Calvinists or Lutherans correctly state what the Roman Catholic teaching is and of course Catholic priests often are laughably misinformed about what Protestantism is (are). I agree there.  Spending some time right here (in this NG) has shown me that.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Chris: I was hoping you could tell me difference between Lutheran and Catholic, besides the authority of the Pope. The two biggest, most important difference between Rome and Luther are our basis for authority (i.e., Sola Scriptura, meaning that Scripture is the sole source of authority) and the doctrine of Justification Sola Gratia (Grace alone) and Sole Fide (Faith alone). Correction.. The Catholic Church agrees with the "sola Gratia" part, but "Sola Scriptura" and "Sola Fide" do distinguish us. We believe in Traditian as well as Scripture, and we say that God, when he justifies us, infuses other virtues besides Faith (or actually "Hope" which is what Catholic theology calls the supernatural virtue of trust in God to save us). Well, since we define grace differently, I’m not completely sure that it’s completely accurate to say that Rome agrees with Sola Gratia. Well, regardless of whether grace is defined differently or not, the Roman Catholic Church says that justification is by grace alone. The contrary position is called the heresies of Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism. Faith alone is a whole ‘nother thing. There is a sense in which we can agree that justification is by "faith alone," but it is a limited sense. Trent discusses this: "we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God" (sixth session chapter XIII)

So, justification is a process…If I understand the Catholic position (which I do better than I did just two months ago), we cooperate with God to be made more and more holy until we die…where we are finished in purgatory so we can be made acceptable to God.  This is where Rome and the Reformers (especially Luther) parted company.  We say that our santification (that’s the process part) is based on the fact that, in Christ, we are already holy and the the imputed righteousness (the justificaiton part) is then poured out upon us through Word and Sacrament we are made holy *because* we are already holy in Christ.  The difference is that between indicative (what we are) and imperative (and what we are to do). Generally speaking, though, "sola fide" is not Roman Catholic, nor is "sola scriptura."

On sola fide, if you define faith as mere mental assent, that is correct…even from the Reformation perspective.  Complete faith includes what you call hope.  As to sola scriptura, we aren’t fundamentalists (at least not in the modern sense of the word).  Tradition is allowed (at least on the Lutheran side) as long as it doesn’t conflict with scripture *and* is always made subordinate to scripture. Truth to tell, I have found myself explaining Catholic ideas to many protestant friends that I have since they have little understanding of what they really are.  This includes Mary, confession (which we have, too), the Real Presence (which we have too), and even mortal/venial sin distinctions. Doesn’t mean I’d become a Catholic, mind you, but it shows that knowledge is profitable. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want to know the Reformation position, I can direct you to a real good source.  It’s at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals website. Go to:  www.alliancenet.org Click on Radio Programs Click on White Horse Inn (Listen here) Click on Broadcast Archives. They’re doing a series on Romans that really goes into the Reformation doctrines on Justification.  The White Horse Inn is a broadcast that has two Reformed, one Lutheran (my fave), and a Baptist (much to Carlos’ chagrin I’d bet <g) who disuss various theological issues.  They also talk about how modern American evangelicalism is very similar to Rome on justification (without the comfort of the sacraments, I might add…I’d rather be a medieval Catholic than a modern American evangelical…at least there’s comfort in confession and the eucharist). I think the White Horse Inn is great

I’ve met Mike, Kim, and Rod.  Great guys. but when they talk about Roman Catholicism they usually get it wrong in one way or another.

That’s true.  But since few take the time to look at the other side (i.e., Reformation looking at Catholic), they only go based on what they see…i.e., Carlos, CB, etc.  I was looking at some of Jack Chick’s stuff in light of what I know about Catholicism and even what I believe as a Lutheran and I find that he’s way, way off base (his discussion of the Sacraments, church history, etc.).  He’s got salvation by grace through faith right, but he’s also a Semi-Pelagian Arminian at the same time…sad. There is something peculiar about the Reformation divide.

Do you mean the divinde between Rome and the Reformation or the divide between Calvin and Luther (Luther was, of course, right <g)? Of course we differ, that’s the whole point, but it’s peculiar that both sides have trouble correctly saying what the other side teaches and what exactly the difference is. Rarely do Calvinists or Lutherans correctly state what the Roman Catholic teaching is and of course Catholic priests often are laughably misinformed about what Protestantism is (are).

I agree there.  Spending some time right here (in this NG) has shown me that.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Chris: I was hoping you could tell me difference between Lutheran and Catholic, besides the authority of the Pope. The two biggest, most important difference between Rome and Luther are our basis for authority (i.e., Sola Scriptura, meaning that Scripture is the sole source of authority) and the doctrine of Justification Sola Gratia (Grace alone) and Sole Fide (Faith alone). Correction.. The Catholic Church agrees with the "sola Gratia" part, but "Sola Scriptura" and "Sola Fide" do distinguish us. We believe in Traditian as well as Scripture, and we say that God, when he justifies us, infuses other virtues besides Faith (or actually "Hope" which is what Catholic theology calls the supernatural virtue of trust in God to save us). Well, since we define grace differently, I’m not completely sure that it’s completely accurate to say that Rome agrees with Sola Gratia.

Well, regardless of whether grace is defined differently or not, the Roman Catholic Church says that justification is by grace alone. The contrary position is called the heresies of Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism. Faith alone is a whole ‘nother thing. There is a sense in which we can agree that justification is by "faith alone," but it is a limited sense. Trent discusses this: "we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God" (sixth session chapter XIII) Generally speaking, though, "sola fide" is not Roman Catholic, nor is "sola scriptura." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If you want to know the Reformation position, I can direct you to a real good source.  It’s at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals website. Go to:  www.alliancenet.org Click on Radio Programs Click on White Horse Inn (Listen here) Click on Broadcast Archives. They’re doing a series on Romans that really goes into the Reformation doctrines on Justification.  The White Horse Inn is a broadcast that has two Reformed, one Lutheran (my fave), and a Baptist (much to Carlos’ chagrin I’d bet <g) who disuss various theological issues.  They also talk about how modern American evangelicalism is very similar to Rome on justification (without the comfort of the sacraments, I might add…I’d rather be a medieval Catholic than a modern American evangelical…at least there’s comfort in confession and the eucharist).

I think the White Horse Inn is great but when they talk about Roman Catholicism they usually get it wrong in one way or another. There is something peculiar about the Reformation divide. Of course we differ, that’s the whole point, but it’s peculiar that both sides have trouble correctly saying what the other side teaches and what exactly the difference is. Rarely do Calvinists or Lutherans correctly state what the Roman Catholic teaching is and of course Catholic priests often are laughably misinformed about what Protestantism is (are).

Response:

Thank you most kindly Chris.  I have a clearer picture of Lutherans now.   This is more in deference to Lutherans who are ignorant what the word catholic

means, i.e., not necessarily having to do with Rome. Since Catholic is used for the universal church that Jesus started, IMHO we are very much the same.  That is to say, save and except recognition of the Pope. Am I correct on this? Thanks again! Monica "To the world you might be one person, but to one person you might be the world."

Response:

Thank you most kindly Chris.  I have a clearer picture of Lutherans now. This is more in deference to Lutherans who are ignorant what the word catholic means, i.e., not necessarily having to do with Rome. Since Catholic is used for the universal church that Jesus started, IMHO we are very much the same.  That is to say, save and except recognition of the Pope. Am I correct on this? Thanks again!

We acknowledge the Pope as the legitimate Bishop of Rome, but that’s all. However, we believe that all Christians are in the one, true catholic Church that Christ established of which Christ Himself is the head.

Response:

Hi Chris: I was hoping you could tell me difference between Lutheran and Catholic, besides the authority of the Pope. The two biggest, most important difference between Rome and Luther are our basis for authority (i.e., Sola Scriptura, meaning that Scripture is the sole source of authority) and the doctrine of Justification Sola Gratia (Grace alone) and Sole Fide (Faith alone).  

Correction.. The Catholic Church agrees with the "sola Gratia" part, but "Sola Scriptura" and "Sola Fide" do distinguish us. We believe in Traditian as well as Scripture, and we say that God, when he justifies us, infuses other virtues besides Faith (or actually "Hope" which is what Catholic theology calls the supernatural virtue of trust in God to save us).

Response:

Thanks Steve and Chris! Steve P." Zerchi Correction.. The Catholic Church agrees with the "sola Gratia" part, but "Sola Scriptura" and "Sola Fide" do distinguish us. We believe in Traditian as well as Scripture, and we say that God, when he justifies us, infuses other virtues besides Faith (or actually "Hope" which is what Catholic theology calls the supernatural virtue of trust in God to save us).

Monica "To the world you might be one person, but to one person you might be the world."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Chris: I was hoping you could tell me difference between Lutheran and Catholic, besides the authority of the Pope. The two biggest, most important difference between Rome and Luther are our basis for authority (i.e., Sola Scriptura, meaning that Scripture is the sole source of authority) and the doctrine of Justification Sola Gratia (Grace alone) and Sole Fide (Faith alone). Correction.. The Catholic Church agrees with the "sola Gratia" part, but "Sola Scriptura" and "Sola Fide" do distinguish us. We believe in Traditian as well as Scripture, and we say that God, when he justifies us, infuses other virtues besides Faith (or actually "Hope" which is what Catholic theology calls the supernatural virtue of trust in God to save us).

Well, since we define grace differently, I’m not completely sure that it’s completely accurate to say that Rome agrees with Sola Gratia. If you want to know the Reformation position, I can direct you to a real good source.  It’s at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals website. Go to:  www.alliancenet.org Click on Radio Programs Click on White Horse Inn (Listen here) Click on Broadcast Archives. They’re doing a series on Romans that really goes into the Reformation doctrines on Justification.  The White Horse Inn is a broadcast that has two Reformed, one Lutheran (my fave), and a Baptist (much to Carlos’ chagrin I’d bet <g) who disuss various theological issues.  They also talk about how modern American evangelicalism is very similar to Rome on justification (without the comfort of the sacraments, I might add…I’d rather be a medieval Catholic than a modern American evangelical…at least there’s comfort in confession and the eucharist).

Response:

My pleasure Monica. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Steve and Chris! Steve P." Zerchi Correction.. The Catholic Church agrees with the "sola Gratia" part, but "Sola Scriptura" and "Sola Fide" do distinguish us. We believe in Traditian as well as Scripture, and we say that God, when he justifies us, infuses other virtues besides Faith (or actually "Hope" which is what Catholic theology calls the supernatural virtue of trust in God to save us). Monica "To the world you might be one person, but to one person you might be the world."

Response:

Hi Chris: I was hoping you could tell me difference between Lutheran and Catholic, besides the authority of the Pope.

The two biggest, most important difference between Rome and Luther are our basis for authority (i.e., Sola Scriptura, meaning that Scripture is the sole source of authority) and the doctrine of Justification Sola Gratia (Grace alone) and Sole Fide (Faith alone).  For the Lutheran, justification is the central doctrine from which all other soteriological doctrines flow (i.e., the sacraments, prayer, etc.). I’ve been to Episcopalian funerals and I was blown out the way the said the Apostles Creed.  They left in the part of believing the Holy Catholic Church and the communion of saints.  What’s your creed like, that is, if you all say it?

The only difference in the Creed is that we say: I believe in one, holy Christian and apostolic Church. This is more in deference to Lutherans who are ignorant what the word catholic means, i.e., not necessarily having to do with Rome. Soli Deo gloria en saecula saeculorum.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Chris: I was hoping you could tell me difference between Lutheran and Catholic, besides the authority of the Pope.  I’ve been to Episcopalian funerals and I was blown out the way the said the Apostles Creed.  They left in the part of believing the Holy Catholic Church and the communion of saints.  What’s your creed like, that is, if you all say it? Monica "To the world you might be one person, but to one person you might be theworld."  Lutherans don’t buy purgatory

This is most certainly true. or confessing to a priest.

Actually, auricular confession is practiced for those who want it (I’ve had occasion to use it twice since my confirmation about five years ago).  We have congregational confession and absolution at every single Divine Service every single Sunday. Communion is different also, they don’t think they are eating flesh and blood.

Actually, that is only half-true.  We believe that we are eating the true Body and Blood of Christ in, with and under the bread and wine.  We haven’t defined it like Rome did at Trent.  We, however, argue vehemently from Christ’s Words of Institution that the elements are Christ’s true Body and Blood given and shed for us for the forgiveness of sins. Veneration of Mary is also a sore point with many Lutherans.

We honor Mary, but we don’t ask her to pray for us.

Response:

Hi Chris: I was hoping you could tell me difference between Lutheran and Catholic, besides the authority of the Pope.  I’ve been to Episcopalian funerals and I was blown out the way the said the Apostles Creed.  They left in the part of believing the Holy Catholic Church and the communion of saints.  What’s your creed like, that is, if you all say it? Monica "To the world you might be one person, but to one person you might be

theworld."  Lutherans don’t buy purgatory or confessing to a priest. Communion is different also, they don’t think they are eating flesh and blood. Veneration of Mary is also a sore point with many Lutherans.                               Peace, Dawn "I do not know with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." –Albert Einstein

Response:

Hi Chris: I was hoping you could tell me difference between Lutheran and Catholic, besides the authority of the Pope.  I’ve been to Episcopalian funerals and I was blown out the way the said the Apostles Creed.  They left in the part of believing the Holy Catholic Church and the communion of saints.  What’s your creed like, that is, if you all say it? Monica "To the world you might be one person, but to one person you might be the world."

Response: