Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

November 21st – The Presentation of the Virgin Mary It stands to reason that Almighty God’s selection of the Virgin Mary to be the Mother of God was not a random selection. In his wisdom, God selected not from the nobility but from the humble, thoroughly devout, daughter of equally devout parents whose names were Joachim and Anna. Tradition has it that Anna, childless for many years, reached a point in her life when just short of despair she prayed in earnest that God grant her a child with a promise that should her wish be fulfilled she would pledge the child to his holy Temple. It did not matter to Anna that the child granted her by God was a girl and, faithful to her word, she presented her daughter, given the name of Mary, to the holy Temple at the age of three, on the 21st of November. She remained in the house of God for twelve years, emerging at the age of fifteen with a purity and wholesomeness found in no other creature of God. By the time she had been released to her parents, the saintly Mary was not only a flawless maiden but in her twelve years had acquired the lore and religion of the deepest scholars, something usually denied a female child of those days. So much has been written of the Lord’s mother that the concern here is for a glimpse into her life as a human being. The Virgin Mary is looked upon by Orthodoxy as "Panagia," which translates into the all-encompassing saint. Greek Orthodox Christians need but one name and that name is "Panagia," carrying the full impact on the Christian faith as no other name can regardless of the language. The beginnings of Christianity were not the scattered remnants that somehow merged into a smattering, of ideologies. By divine intent the great religion of Christ stemmed from a tight circle which spread itself out as the greatest of human experiences. To begin with, the high priest entrusted with the care of Mary was Zacharias, who in turn was the father of St. John the Baptist, referred to as the prefiguration of the Messiah and the man who was to baptize Jesus Christ. Yet in her teens the Virgin Mary, in a story that cannot be told often enough, was visited by the Archangel Gabriel, sent by the Almighty himself to be told that she, a wisp of a girl, mortal but blessed, was to become the mother of the Son of God. There is every reason to believe that as electrifying as the news was, she received it with both joy and complete serenity. A girl can get excited by being elected "Queen of May" but to be "Queen of the Universe" must have been an anticipation not of excitement but the sublimest of joy, human or otherwise. It follows that both Joachim and Anna, as the grandparents so to speak, of the Son of God, are also venerated as saints of the Church, so much so that they are also known as the "Patron Saints of Pious Education," principally because of the twelve year course of study of religion of their daughter Mary. The Christian can make his own choice of his favorite among the four days of the year which are feast days of the Virgin Mary. These are the Birth of the Blessed Virgin Mary on September 8, the Presentation of the Virgin Mary on November 21, the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary on March 25, and the Dormition of the Virgin Mary on August 15. On the calendar of the Church, all four of these days are of equal importance. The world sees the Virgin Mary much as Michelangelo did when he carved out his famous Ficta in which a youthful looking Mary is holding the lifeless body of her crucified Son. Nowhere is she seen as an old woman, at least not at the age of a woman who is the mother of a thirty-three year old son. Among the Holy Land’s most sacred shrines is the one at the base of the Garden of Gethsemane, the site of the agony of Christ. This shrine is dedicated to the Virgin Mary and her parents. After a descent down a cement stairway of about fifty steps, the tomb of Joachim is on the left and on the right of the tomb of his wife Anna. Some fifty steps below this is the empty tomb of the Virgin Mary since, like the Son of God, she ascended into heaven. Stories abound about the Virgin Mary but the truthful one that clings and shall do so forever is that in being the mother of the Son of God, she is the mother of the world. For this reason November 21 is one of Christianity’s holiest feast days. source:  http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/presentn.htm Bible Verse — Luke 16:10-11 — "Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches?" Our integrity often meets its match is money matters. God calls us to be honest even in small details we could easily rationalize away. Heaven’s riches are far more valuable than earthly wealth. But if we are not trustworthy with our money here (no matter how much or little we have) we will be unfit to handle the vast riches of God’s Kingdom. Don’t let your integrity slip in small matters, and it will not fail you in crucial decisions either. <<<< Martyrology At Rome, the suffering of Saints Celsus and Clement. At Rheims in Gaul, St. Albert, Bishop of Liege and martyr, who was killed for defending the liberty of the Church. Near Ostia, the holy martyrs Demetrius and Honorius. In Spain, the holy martyrs Honorius, Eutychius, and Stephen. In Pamphylia, St. Heliodorus, martyr, in the persecution of Aurelian, under the governor Aetius. After his execution, his executioners themselves were converted to the faith and were drowned in the sea. At Rome, Pope St. Gelasius I, famed for his learning and holiness. At Verona, St. Maurus, bishop and confessor. In the monastery of Bobbio, the death of St. Columban, abbot. He founded many monasteries and was the spiritual father of a very great number of monks. Eminent for his many virtues, he died peacefully at a good old age. The birthday of Blessed Rufus, whom St. Paul the Apostle mentions in his Epistle to the Romans. (5)  (5). Romans, 16:13. <<<<< Indulgenced Prayers O blessed Trinity, one God, in Thee I believe, in Thee I hope, Thee I love, Thee I adore, have mercy on me now and at the hour of my death, and save me. (300 days every time said) Almighty, everlasting God, grant us an increase of faith, hope, and charity; and that we may merit to attain what Thou dost promise, grant us to love what Thou dost ordain. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen. (5 years every time said)* Take, O Lord, and receive all my liberty, my memory, my understanding, and all my will, whatsoever I have and possess. Thou hast given all these things to me; to Thee, O Lord, I restore them; all are Thine, dispose of them all according to Thy Will. Give me Thy love and Thy grace, for this is enough for me. (3 years every time said)*

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – November 21st – The Presentation of the Virgin Mary It stands to reason that Almighty God’s selection of the Virgin Mary to be the Mother of God was not a random selection. In his wisdom, God selected not from the nobility but from the humble, thoroughly devout, daughter of equally devout parents whose names were Joachim and Anna. Tradition has it that Anna, childless for many years, reached a point in her life when just short of despair she prayed in earnest that God grant her a child with a promise that should her wish be fulfilled she would pledge the child to his holy Temple. It did not matter to Anna that the child granted her by God was a girl and, faithful to her word, she presented her daughter, given the name of Mary, to the holy Temple at the age of three, on the 21st of November. She remained in the house of God for twelve years, emerging at the age of fifteen with a purity and wholesomeness found in no other creature of God. By the time she had been released to her parents, the saintly Mary was not only a flawless maiden but in her twelve years had acquired the lore and religion of the deepest scholars, something usually denied a female child of those days. So much has been written of the Lord’s mother that the concern here is for a glimpse into her life as a human being. The Virgin Mary is looked upon by Orthodoxy as "Panagia," which translates into the all-encompassing saint. Greek Orthodox Christians need but one name and that name is "Panagia," carrying the full impact on the Christian faith as no other name can regardless of the language. The beginnings of Christianity were not the scattered remnants that somehow merged into a smattering, of ideologies. By divine intent the great religion of Christ stemmed from a tight circle which spread itself out as the greatest of human experiences. To begin with, the high priest entrusted with the care of Mary was Zacharias, who in turn was the father of St. John the Baptist, referred to as the prefiguration of the Messiah and the man who was to baptize Jesus Christ. Yet in her teens the Virgin Mary, in a story that cannot be told often enough, was visited by the Archangel Gabriel, sent by the Almighty himself to be told that she, a wisp of a girl, mortal but blessed, was to become the mother of the Son of God. There is every reason to believe that as electrifying as the news was, she received it with both joy and complete serenity. A girl can get excited by being elected "Queen of May" but to be "Queen of the Universe" must have been an anticipation not of excitement but the sublimest of joy, human or otherwise. It follows that both Joachim and Anna, as the grandparents so to speak, of the Son of God, are also venerated as saints of the Church, so much so that they are also known as the "Patron Saints of Pious Education," principally because of the twelve year course of study of religion of their daughter Mary. The Christian can make his own choice of his favorite among the four days of the year which are feast days of the Virgin Mary. These are the Birth of the Blessed Virgin Mary on September 8, the Presentation of the Virgin Mary on November 21, the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary on March 25, and the Dormition of the Virgin Mary on August 15. On the calendar of the Church, all four of these days are of equal importance. The world sees the Virgin Mary much as Michelangelo did when he carved out his famous Ficta in which a youthful looking Mary is holding the lifeless body of her crucified Son. Nowhere is she seen as an old woman, at least not at the age of a woman who is the mother of a thirty-three year old son. Among the Holy Land’s most sacred shrines is the one at the base of the Garden of Gethsemane, the site of the agony of Christ. This shrine is dedicated to the Virgin Mary and her parents. After a descent down a cement stairway of about fifty steps, the tomb of Joachim is on the left and on the right of the tomb of his wife Anna. Some fifty steps below this is the empty tomb of the Virgin Mary since, like the Son of God, she ascended into heaven. Stories abound about the Virgin Mary but the truthful one that clings and shall do so forever is that in being the mother of the Son of God, she is the mother of the world. For this reason November 21 is one of Christianity’s holiest feast days. source:  http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/presentn.htm

This is great and all but leaves me somewhat confused.  You say today is a holy feast of the presentation of the virgin mary… yet is not today the solemn feast of Christ the King? -Robert

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In a momentary short visit, I give substance of hope for those who hope. Snip < Currently, there is no corrective force coming against evil and the evil minded ones. The only corrective force that is able to prevail is truth in regards to what God truly is and what the higher ways and principles of God really are. And there are very few who possess this truth and when these speak, they are ridiculed, mocked, and despised, according to religious law. What they offer is seen and judged to be of no value. DW Suiter Son of God

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in [both] which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. 2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 2Pe 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2Pe 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Response:

In a momentary short visit, I give substance of hope for those who hope. There is a great divide and division occurring in the USA as well as all over the world. This division will eventually lead to another civil war in the USA, which will be much greater and more horrible than the first. The cause of the war? Simply put, money and power, sought by the money lovers who attempt to make merchandise out of those not following this principle of love for money. Already more millionaires are created each year as a greater number of people enter the poverty rolls each year. Health care is affordable only by the wealthy, as is decent housing. What was once declared to be a government of the people by the people and FOR the people no longer exists. It is now a government of the money and power lovers, by these, and FOR these. It is clear to any person who looks, the ongoing transfer of money from the poorer to the richer. And there is a reason and cause for this action. There are many principles a person, a family; a social order may follow to create their lives by. Many people choose many different principles creating different lifestyles.. The principles chosen by the money and power seekers are the principles not of God, and are condemned by God, as being the principles or "mark" (teaching) of the "beast." These principles mainly being, the love of money and what money buys in physical possessions, physical comfort and pleasure, and power over others. A slow transition took place over the last two thousand years. What was once Christianity has become a sister religion to Judaism, a religion created on and by the belief the matters of God pertain to the physical. Because of this, the principles of these religions have been highly promoted and believed by the money lovers. The teaching of "prosperity" which at one time in truth pertained to the gifts from God, spiritual gifts, has been perverted into a false teaching that prosperity according to God is physical riches and the pleasure money buys. The great division is not only occurring in the USA, but all over the world in all social orders of mankind. The teachings of the man known as Jesus of Nazareth pertained to the higher and greater principles of God that structure a life that may be lived in peace, love and joy, one with another. And more so, his teachings instructed people to come to God to receive what God has promised, the teaching of these principles of God in what is called "truth." Religions have rejected this concept of mankind actually asking and receiving this from God. Religions create their own principles as societies of mankind do, each and all differing with one another in what is taught and what is called truth in regards to God. The truth of the matter was spoken of by the apostle John long ago. He said; "If a person saying he loves God, sees a person in need and shuts up his bowels of compassion, he is a liar." All who love God seek to do the will of God and to obey the higher principles of God of which the principle of  "love" is. It is not an emotion but a principle to be followed regardless of how one feels "emotionally." It is to give to a person in need from the excess a person possesses, "excess" meaning in regard to basic needs for the physical life. An example of these two types of people, the money lovers and the lovers of God and the righteousness of God is seen in two pyramids. The first represents the social order of mankind, especially in the USA in this hour. At the top are the wealthy in physical riches. At the bottom are the poor, needy, and downtrodden. Downtrodden because the people have been taught in order to get ahead they must climb their way to the top. As they do, they trod down the weaker and younger and the ones not able to protect their selves. The second represents the social order of God and those of the family of God. At the top of this inverted pyramid is the broad part of the pyramid and at the bottom is the narrow point. All who are at the top are giving aid to the others, pulling them up to where they are. As they rise to the top, they lift up the other also. This picture portrays the difference in the mind and spirit of mankind. Those possessing the mind and spirit that is of and from God, and the others possessing the mind and spirit not of God, those who are of the type and kind of person called "beast" by the writers of scriptures. Along with the civil war in the USA will be another greater war, the war of "Armageddon" which is a spiritual war. It is a war between the people of God and sons of perdition, those not of God. "Spirit" is the substance in the mind placed there by the act of inspiring. God inspires His Word in the minds of mankind, in those who love God and come to God, and fellow man inspires his word in the minds of fellow man, those loving the ways of the beast. The beast type "marks" his word in the minds of others which is the process of teaching others, ways to follow and go in life. Loving money and power, is only one of the principles the beast type follows. Others are lying, cheating, deceiving, and many other minor principles. These beast types are the ones in power in almost every government of the different social orders of mankind. The people of God are the downtrodden who are made by others to be used as merchandise by the money lovers. What happens and has happened in the physical only reflects what happens and has happened in the minds of mankind. Every physical act and action is directed by the mind; the contents of the mind that have been inspired, or built up in the mind. The mind contains all knowledge and understanding, all belief and opinion. The mind of mankind contains very little sure knowledge of truth. It contains mostly mere belief and opinion. The vast majority of people live in and by what they have heard and have believed. This kind of mind is easy prey for the liar and deceiver. When there is but one truth in regards to a matter, a thousand lies may be created concerning this same matter. "Truth" is any word accurately defining and portraying existing reality. The one major cause of the problems mankind faces in this day and hour is his reluctance to find, prove, and thereby know the truth of matters. He is content to open his mind and let another or others fill it with their word and teachings. Consequently, the social order of mankind is lacking in social leaders who understand life is structured by principles, either knowingly or unknowingly. A principle is seen as a law or statute in scripture. In life each and every person follows principles which the majority only knows as a way or ways of doing things. They have been led to believe what they do is correct and proper in regards to living life. But the measuring stick used to judge right and wrong is a crooked stick, created by the religions of mankind. True right and wrong is declared by God. This right and wrong pertains to the way a person may live life in peace, love, and joy.  A "good" life. Quality of life is measured by mankind according to physical possessions. In other words, mankind believes possession of money is how a "man" is measured. Respect and honor is given to this type of person by mankind and is not given to the man possessing good morals, values and who follows the principles of God. This mindset has been created for the most part by the religionists and their religions. These religionists possess what is described as the "carnal mind" which is to see by belief, the matters of God pertain to the physical body. Consequently, the "law of the jungle" represents the principles mankind follows. And mankind has become "beasts" of this jungle, possessing the attitude of kill or be killed, eat or be eaten, but do this first. Preemptive killing and taking from others. Those who do not subscribe to this law are those being consumed by the money lovers, used as merchandise in the labor market, as a tax base, as an army, as pawns. These cannot attend the better colleges for they do not meet the money requirements nor the social requirements demanded by the money lovers. In being ostracized, they represent the people who cannot buy nor sell in this social order because they have refused to take the mark or teachings of the money lovers and have refused to follow the principles of the beast. The money lovers love money more than righteousness. And they have created a social/economical world where their laws govern. They have created the laws that govern and have placed their selves in positions of government and governors. As a type and kind, they represent the "Romans" of long ago. Invading and conquering. even as is seen in the religious "inquisitions." In this world of the beast, good people cannot sell their principles and those of the beast do not buy what they offer as righteousness and what is the measure of a man. Not in a market of ideas, concepts, beliefs and opinions. The physical body of mankind shall die and rot away as the physical laws dictate. Physical matter obeys physical laws. Spiritual matter obeys spiritual law, but not the spiritual law of God for the most part. For the most part, mankind follows spiritual laws that are described as being from the enemy of God. They are an enemy of God because they conflict with the principles of God and cause man to never be able to possess and live the life God gives in the higher principles of God. The enemy has succeeded in keeping mankind separated from God. He has done so by creating religions as a replacement for God. To and for the people, religions represent God. The heads of religion have created this government of the minds of mankind, this rulership of the matters pertaining to God. They rule and control what man believes concerning God and the matters of God. People believe the voters voted for the man of their choice in the Bush/Kerry "election." They did … read more »

Response:

Question:

He isn’t late, He has came, and judged every generation since

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We have heard many say that Jesus, as Son of God, is less than God. However, that cannot be for several reasons.  Here are two. 1.  The following words of Christ show that Jesus has judgement… "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." – John 5:25-27 K.C. keep going. Jesus also tells us in Matthew 16: 27, For the Son of man shall come in the Glory of his Father, with the angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Jesus will be coming in judgement. Oooooops, but wait, in verse 28, he says further, Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste death, till the see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom. Oooops, Mark says, in 13: 30, Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Luke 21: 32, says the same thing. So you are right, Jesus was to come in this judgement, but 2,000 years ago, Why would God be so late?? Why would Jesus makes that claim?? Amazing!!

Response:

We have heard many say that Jesus, as Son of God, is less than God. However, that cannot be for several reasons.  Here are two. 1.  The following words of Christ show that Jesus has judgement… "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." – John 5:25-27 …However, only God is allowed to judge… "To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left." – Deuteronomy 32:35-36 …and only God is the giver of life…. "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." – Deuteronomy 32:39 2.  Redeemer – Only God is the redeemer… "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go." – Isaiah 48:17 There are about 6 other places in Isaiah where God calls Himself "redeemer."  Do you know how that word is translated.  It is one who pays the debt to free another, such as buying the freedom of a slave or, in the biblical times, a wife.  Therefore, God, Himself, must pay for the debt of our sins to be our redeemer.  If He were to let anyone else do it for Him, He couldn’t be called "redeemer," but that name would go to whoever did the paying.  Jesus MUST be God in order for this title of God to be true. Trust in God Almighty, Ruling Lord and Savior friend, Jesus Christ.  He paid your debt to set you free.  Won’t you accept your reward by accepting that payment? K.C. http://providential-plan.com/providence.html

Response:

We have heard many say that Jesus, as Son of God, is less than God. However, that cannot be for several reasons.  Here are two.

No, you have not heard many say that; except as an argument from your own group; who claim that Jesus is the Son of God, and He is God the Father, or something insanely strangely argumentative like that. No, He is the Son of God; as was stated or implied out of every Word He spoke.  Since He is a reflection of the Father (as He is Son) then the Father is in Him, for His is the Son of God. The Christ is the Father’s ASSIGNED representative, and if we don’t heed Him (if we are not obediant like Him) then we have ignored God the Father. You have no argument, only an interpretation of John. –Mike

Response:

We have heard many say that Jesus, as Son of God, is less than God. However, that cannot be for several reasons.  Here are two. 1.  The following words of Christ show that Jesus has judgement… "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." – John 5:25-27

K.C. keep going. Jesus also tells us in Matthew 16: 27, For the Son of man shall come in the Glory of his Father, with the angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Jesus will be coming in judgement. Oooooops, but wait, in verse 28, he says further, Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste death, till the see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom. Oooops, Mark says, in 13: 30, Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Luke 21: 32, says the same thing. So you are right, Jesus was to come in this judgement, but 2,000 years ago, Why would God be so late?? Why would Jesus makes that claim?? Amazing!!

Response:

See John 17, also Jesus taught that as you forgive (yes we can forgive) so will you be forgiven. He also taught that whatever we loose / bound on earth will be loosed / bound in heaven….

===NASA would be happy if it were really true! MERRY CHRISTMAS, you old Heretic! — L.

Response:

Question:

In every generation there is someone who will ask: "Is there a God or not?" Millions live in places where they seem to see little evidence. A man stands up in a dark alley and screams.  He bellows loudly that life has no meaning and that there is no God.  The people down the street do not even hear.  They’re laughing at some joke.  Others across the street are sitting at small tables, drinking and listening to a live jazz band. The last bus rumbles by on its way out to the north side of town. Traffic lights on every corner keep changing from red to green to yellow, and back to red again.  Automobiles and a few pedestrians still move up and down the streets. A thoughtful youth sits on the steps of a downtown building, taking in the noise from the mad man, the live band, and the crude jokes interspersed with laughter.  He wonders, as he looks up past the streetlights at stars barely visible, what it all means. His own home is not a good place to be.  His own friends cannot be trusted.  And the world often seems to be very busy occupying itself with nothing.  If he were to ask a hundred people about the meaning of life, he’d probably get about a hundred different answers. So he doesn’t bother to ask anymore. The world has always had its own opinions of what life and reality are all about.  In ancient times, the world had its many gods, just as it still does today.  It had its philosophers and dreamers, its worship of desire and excess, of glitter, and even of mortal heroes. But there is a God who is exalted above the earth and far above all the opinions of mortal men.  He is the Lord God who speaks the truth and who reveals reality.  Because Jesus Christ faithfully testified to this truth and reality (including the reality of sin and sinners) the world hated Him and saw to it that He was put to death. It should come as no surprise that religion and its leaders played a central role in the trumped up charges and the murder of Jesus. Religion has long been a strong arm of the world system.  The world does not oppose anything that it can contain and control — and use to its own advantage.  Religious tradition can be as big a barrier to honest faith and a love for the truth as greed, ambition, lust, envy, anger or any other expression of human sin. God does not ask anyone to become religious or to bow down to tradition.  God is light and truth.  God is life and reality.  God is love.  And He directs our attention to light and life and love and truth — and to eternal realities. A most significant reality is that all people are sinners.  Sin brings death — both physical and spiritual.  Physical death is not permanent in itself, but spiritual death results in being banished eternally to hell.  The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Jesus willingly died on a cross, receiving the full wrath of God for sin.  He took away your sin and mine on that cross. The Bible says: God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself

Question:

all people love cupcakes, "Streamer" According to the bible, how can a man be saved ? Are there any bible verses that will prove that any one can know he is saved ? Do man have to do anything to get saved ? Is being saved is a long process, or instant ? The first question I have is, are you serious, or just trolling?

Are you asking that question beacause you don’t know the answers ? Or it offended you ?

Response:

What does Jesus save you from? "…the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." — Revelation 21:8

OK nice quote. Now what does it hell? How does Jesus death save humans from a second death? Please write not just quote verses.

Response:

1) Priests are not allowed to marry.

Either are brothers and sisters. Your point? 2) During holy friday; majority of catholics don’t eat meat. You call it sacrifice? That’s what satan do, to reason.

That’s what satan do? Is you is or is you ain’t Christian? Read the above verses again… Not from me.It’s  from the Word of God.

Your interpretation is evil. You’re not worthy to even touch a Bible. BAM

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the group) According to the bible, how can a man be saved ? According to the Bible you should listen to the Church: According to the Bible, bam, you must be born again. You don’t know what that means. BAM Can you tell me what being born again means ?

Yes. But I don’t educate evil persons. BAM

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the group) According to the bible, how can a man be saved ? According to the Bible you should listen to the Church: According to the Bible, bam, you must be born again. You don’t know what that means. BAM

Can you tell me what being born again means ?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll give you this once and shake the dust. * Doctrines of devils: Forbidding to marry, We consider marriage a sacrament and indissoluble. Who else does? Who else elevates marriage as high as the Catholic Church? Becoming a priest is voluntary, so marriage is never "forbidden". and commanding to abstain from   meats. * Is these you church ? I believe it is. That’s because you’re an uneducated dope, and you *desire* to see no difference between making a sacrifice once a week by abstaining from meat, and believing that the eating of meat *at all* is evil.

These bible verse is speaking to you. Not Me.  Tim. 1-3:   Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall   depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of   devils;   Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;   Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath   created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the  truth. * Doctrines of devils: Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from    meats. 1) Priests are not allowed to marry. 2) During holy friday; majority of catholics don’t eat meat. You call it sacrifice? That’s what satan do, to reason. Read the above verses again… Not from me.It’s  from the Word of God.

Response:

According to the bible, how can a man be saved ?…

"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." — Romans 10:9 …Is being saved is a long process, or instant ?…

"…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." — Philippians 2:12 "…faith without works is dead" — James 2:26

Response:

…Jesus saves…

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." — Acts 4:12

Response:

What does Jesus save you from? "…the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." — Revelation 21:8

Only an idiot would accept that acid trip as scripture. No parent would do that to their child and we are only human. — Bush is not my President.

Response:

What does Jesus save you from?

"…the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." — Revelation 21:8

Response:

all people love cupcakes, "Streamer" According to the bible, how can a man be saved ? Are there any bible verses that will prove that any one can know he is saved ? Do man have to do anything to get saved ? Is being saved is a long process, or instant ?

The first question I have is, are you serious, or just trolling? — Pastor Dave Raymond "I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation." – Psalm 119:99                / o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::                 "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" – Ephesians 6:17

Response:

What does Jesus save you from? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – According to the bible, how can a man be saved ? According to the Bible you should listen to the Church: 1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. BAM I Tim. 1-3:   Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall   depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of   devils;   Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;   Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath   created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the   truth. * Doctrines of devils: Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from    meats. * Is these you church ? I believe it is. Now, how can I listen to your church? * BTW, do you know what the church is ?

Response:

Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Correct. But you don’t believe Jesus. You don’t believe the words He spoke and commanded: John 6:53 So Jesus said to them,

Question:

Why do people make fun of each other? Thick thin tall short, everyone gets made fun of for something.. I never saw the need or purpose for it.

Response:

I guess it is human nature. —– – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Coconut wrote: > Why do people make fun of each other? > Thick thin tall short, everyone gets made fun of for something.. > I never saw the need or purpose for it.

Response:

>Why do people make fun of each other? >Thick thin tall short, everyone gets made fun of for something.. >I never saw the need or purpose for it.

i think people do it because it makes them feel superior if they can try to make someone else look ridiculous i hate it . always have because it is alot of time me that is getting  made fun of

Response:

It’s the basic instinct to hide or mask one’s own insecurities. I’m glad you were secure enough in yourself that you never needed to go that route. "Coconut" <h…@not.there.com> wrote in message

news:ho5o705ucvvh6qtpr1gns3vvbji3b22dm1@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Why do people make fun of each other? > Thick thin tall short, everyone gets made fun of for something.. > I never saw the need or purpose for it.

Response:

Hi, Damo.  I believe that it’s precisely our ability, as living entities, to make use of time and space that makes our experience so valuable to purely spiritual entities.  Many experiences are just not available in this other realm you talk about.  I see that other realm as impoverished, even though in many ways it gives scope to greater creativity.  As an example, physical confusion is not possible.  You can’t have a living being with its nose on its ankle, unless you also have a windpipe in its leg, because it would quickly become a *dead* creature.  But in the other realm, quasi-physical confusion is possible.   In our realm, creation and destruction must balance.  In the other realm, things can appear out of nothing and disappear into nothing.  So the other realm is wonderful for a creative being in control of its mind and faculties.  But our realm, precisely because it is bound by physical rules, requires limitations on the exercise of power that have many different "flavours" for the unliving.  They find a happy life bland and unfulfilling, so they rain unhappiness down upon us.  But our lives are OURS, not theirs.  It is my hope that, someday, thousands of years from now, we can win our lives back and enter a new era of universal happiness. -wl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -damod…@webtv.net wrote: > Hi Wiggly, > God has a very nasty habit of being quite unpleasent to those who do his > bidding. > Usually they have real disasters for lives. > Moses, Abraham, most prophets, Jesus, on and on it goes. > I’d say as a rule it is quite unpleasent to be chosen by God for a > special mission. > So then…I see by way of implication in your writing, that you agree > that there is another realm, resistant to our present technological > senses, which effects man’s feelings, thoughts, ideas etc. > And, as I have concluded, that it contains all sorts of various entities > and situations. > And I have movd on from this conclusion to accept that szness is > directly related to some highthened availability to influence from this > other "realm". > And…I also agree with you that entities which are not "alive" occupy > this zone. > Its a question of the limitations we face, here, in the spacial/temporal > environment we occupy. Time does not exsist as we know it, space does > not exsist as we know it. Life does not exsist as we know it, etc.,etc., > Or to be more specific, human logic and understanding are useless when > trying to deal with this realm because of the conditioning of the senses > to the "material" world. > I believe that even though logic and reason often fail in regards to > this other "place" we can gain an "isness" . > We can be exposed to what is, but it simply does not fit into the box of > human reason. But we know it "is". > I feel some progress can be made by dealing with the isness of it. > Yeah its not a "place" as we know it, either. > I’ve had some luck in getting a grip on it by accepting reason is > insuffient, but accepting the "isness" of it, we can improve on our > "symptom Management" techniques. > Reason alone, is insuffient. > Dam. > http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit

Response:

Wiggley….. I believe I have meories, pre birth, pre conception memories. My practice of yoga and meditation was quite severe. I was EXTREMELY angy I was nuts. I planned to fix it. I followed those Eastern schools. The other world, the other realm, according to my memory , was a place of no consequence. And I chose "birth" because there was a moral element in this life. I could have impact. Now here’s the game….. There is a correlation between here, and there. What happens here affects there more then what happens there affects here. I remember…shit….so much from my infancy as well. I freaked my Mom out, revealing my infancy memories to her when she was close to her death. So this same hunger for consequence that I had in this glorious playground of good will and happiness where nothing mattereed, is the same cause that the entities intrusion into the spacial/temporal realm adhere to. So I might not be too different from the "life suckers". But at least I had ego enough to decide to get into the game first hand. Heh? Yeah……I remember… Cradle experiances. So much..I rememeber so many littledetails of my extremely eary years it is not funny. This is surfacy shit? I remember diaper rash. I remember eating "baby food". I remember crying at night for Daddy or Mommy. I remember breast feeding. I remember strange physical sensations I believe were birth and pre birth. And I remember pre-conception. Thats the way it is for me. Maybe I’m self dilluded, but why should I doubt the pre-conception memories when my other memories have been validated by family? There’s more I want to say. Hope I get to writing it up tomorrow. Ain’t Hood great though, Wiggley? Damo http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit

Response:

I believe, wiggley, that we are "here". And here is where we are supposed to be. My Linn…dang…died…. 27 years together wiggle, I’ll never escape it. She sold out and went "there" full time. I felt betrayed and even a little jealous of the entities that held her in their thrall. No. I’m here now. I came here now. I want here now. Unfortunately the problem maybe with the the there then then with the here now. I’m nuts so I’m allowed to speak like this. It was hell…facing where Linn had gotten off to….. Now she’s dead. They killed her. I’m real sure. She said they wre going to. They did. Why the fuck didn’t she stand with me???? Anyway……. Good to meet you in the here now Wiggley. Damo http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit

Response:

This horrible feeling my life has been played out? Inspite of my stance with my guitar. There’s nothing "here". I can’t act. I am so pissed that what I learned in war is availing me nothing, Wiggley. There is no more moral consequece left, so it seems. This is why i incarnated, and its all gone…. Thats how it feels. I listened to my music today, maybe tomorrow I can add a few more songs to my next CD. Thats what I want. But my hands have not been on my guitar for days now……. Being a performer gives credibility to my story. The story thats enounciated in my web site. Thats still there…. But do you understand what waiting for over two years for a reply, when the last year was with the assisstance of my new congressman does to me??!!!?? So I have the accounting mess. Am I to reply with questions knowing, with an awsome certainty, that they can delay me until I die of old age or some horrible disease? I rage over leaving it alone and not asking. It is after all what my college degree is in…I’m not an asshole about this. And then when I approach it I am in such horrible rage. I’m in a fucking strangle hold. A psychiatric strangle hold. I fight to stay in the middle so I don’t feel this rage. Its actully RAGE…not rage. Death….by nature, would be welcome so I can go get my rest back "there". I have no authority to kill myself. No. Thats out of the question. Unless……I face certain death, then I have a right to control my death. Just like in Viet Nam. I SCREAMED as I assaulted. I swung boards at men..well gooks really…who had rapid firing automatic weapons. THAT…was controlling my death. Every trick? Screaming in rage and assaulting mindlessly is a practical behavior. They MUST know I intend to KILL EM and that I might suceed. Otherwise……..my death iwas assured, I called it battle rage. Never get over that ,Wiggley. No man gets over that. So then…..I intend to get my ball rolling again against all hope. Dumbly committed. I AIN’T dead. Not yet. And I might be able to act, again. I’m in such a bad space lately. I freaken hate feeling futility. Ya know? And the screw is its a mind grip they got on me. I’ll be okay. Win lose live die whatever. I’ll be okay and they will know they had been in a contest. And they..love that anonymous they heh? They will know I am still coming at them. Those pirates and thieves who have hi-jacked my country from me. When my time is done? They will remember me. Maybe my choice for incarnating will not have been in vain. See..Wiggley..what happens here influences whats there. It does. But that requires another long and involved e-mail/posting to explain. Thanks. I know I have an easy twenty dollar pick up from you if I do a twenty minute "Bonanza" song. Love you for that. Damo http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit

Response:

In article <Mtekd.21133$km5.1025…@news20.bellglobal.com>,  wiggly lumber <d…@arithmetic.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Mich, sorry to top-post, but you probably remember your original > message, and I don’t have a point-by-point reply to it. > The story of Jesus Christ has been misinterpreted for thousands of > years.  It is a metaphor for what happens to us all.  Each of us is > controlled by a deader, or a subtype of deader commonly called a "soul." >   (A deader is any conscious, sentient entity that is not alive, > including all spirits and deities.)  Our soul is not us.  A soul is a > parasite that attatches itself to a living person and exploits that > person for its own purposes.  The living seek happiness, but souls seek > experience, which almost always means *unpleasant* experience.  Most of > the time, whatever a soul makes us do, we think it’s our idea.  In the > case of Jesus, not only was the parasite a higher-order deader (a god), > but the parasite let him know that what he did was *not* his idea. > Most Christians would agree that Jesus was God taking the body of a > mortal man.  I have a different interpretation of what that means.  I > think it means that not a mere soul, but an actual deity decided to do > what souls commonly do, with predictably disastrous results–a man with > excessive paranormal gifts that dominated his life and exploded out of > him, a man who was a magnet for all sorts of disembodies spirits who > harassed him, a man who was driven by what possessed him to seek > political control and thereby alarmed the local authorities enough to > have himself rubbed out.  The story of Jesus tells me that no one should > ever be possessed by a god.  I look upon it with revulsion.

great interpretation.

Response:

"Hood" <h…@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:nfVjd.480$Eh6.24@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You would think that mankind on the story of Jesus might now and then > think > "Er.  Um.  Duh.  I don’t think crucifying him was the right thing to do" > If there was ANY shadow of doubt that he was the son of God, then > OBVIOUSLY > crucifying him was not the right thing to do. > But instead of that, what do you (the Christians) do?  You turn it into a > GLORIOUS thing, that he died for YOUR sins! > Oh great, billions and billions of you, and not only do you crucify him, > but > he has to suffer, single handed for each one of you! > Don’t you think it’s about time, that instead of going around glorifying > the > fact that you crucified the Son of God, that you start making it publicly > known that you APOLOGIZE for it? > Remember, he did not do it willingly.  He actually said "Please God, I do > not want to be crucified, if you can do anything about it then please do, > but not my will but thine be done". > Even if you do pin the blame for all your sins onto him and expect him to > suffer single handedly for the lot of you, then at LEAST remember that he > did not do it willingly. > And stop turning the crucifixion into some glorious thing, it was not > glorious, it was ABYSMAL, and instead of thanking him for being crucified > why not apologize for it?

Hint, when people say we, they usually mean people like you.  The ones they are admonished to love.  Of course we did nothing… its a generalization. Rather, it was people like you. Troop

Response:

"Nancy Tait" <nancy_t…@cnn.net.au> wrote in message

news:1100001862.525159@proxy.cnn.net.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I was raised as a Christian, and although I am longer a member of the >church > that I was raised in, I have taken afew of their teachings away with me > (this particular church ended up to have some very weird policies, and so > I > left it when I was about 14 – the same time I got sick with Sch.Affective > Disorder). > One of the things that this church taught was that instead of > ‘celebrating’ > the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, we should celebrate the fact that he rose > again after the 3 days.  Because of this teaching, this church didn’t > believe in hanging crosses up around the building, or wearing them as > jewellery etc.  Crosses celebrate the crucifixion, not the ‘rising again’. > For most of the time that I went to this church, they held it in a > highschool or primary school auditorium, because they didn’t need a > building > with crucifixions everywhere. > It’s a shame that they turned really weird and cult-ish (they began to > control what you did, when you did it and who you did it with, and > encouraged you not to be friends with anyone outside the church, and not > to > socialise in activites not put on by the church). > While many churches these days are about money, this one became about > power > and control.  Not a good factor when it comes to a church.  Oh well. > I definately think that Christians should apologise for crucifying Christ > just as much as they thank him for it.  Unfortunately many people just put > it down to the fact that it happened such a long time ago and that it was > not ‘them’ persay that actually did it.

Actually, the only people who "crucified" him were roman soldiers.  But it was the jewish legal body and religious scholars who wanted him dead.  It was the jews and the pagens who cheered it on.  Nowhere in their do I find room to blame christians. How were they involved?  What did the christians do, specificaly?  Maybe Im having a brain freeze. Troop – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Hood" <h…@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:nfVjd.480$Eh6.24@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net… >> You would think that mankind on the story of Jesus might now and then > think >> "Er.  Um.  Duh.  I don’t think crucifying him was the right thing to do" >> If there was ANY shadow of doubt that he was the son of God, then > OBVIOUSLY >> crucifying him was not the right thing to do. >> But instead of that, what do you (the Christians) do?  You turn it into a >> GLORIOUS thing, that he died for YOUR sins! >> Oh great, billions and billions of you, and not only do you crucify him, > but >> he has to suffer, single handed for each one of you! >> Don’t you think it’s about time, that instead of going around glorifying > the >> fact that you crucified the Son of God, that you start making it publicly >> known that you APOLOGIZE for it? >> Remember, he did not do it willingly.  He actually said "Please God, I do >> not want to be crucified, if you can do anything about it then please do, >> but not my will but thine be done". >> Even if you do pin the blame for all your sins onto him and expect him to >> suffer single handedly for the lot of you, then at LEAST remember that he >> did not do it willingly. >> And stop turning the crucifixion into some glorious thing, it was not >> glorious, it was ABYSMAL, and instead of thanking him for being crucified >> why not apologize for it?

Response:

Hi Wiggly, God has a very nasty habit of being quite unpleasent to those who do his bidding. Usually they have real disasters for lives. Moses, Abraham, most prophets, Jesus, on and on it goes. I’d say as a rule it is quite unpleasent to be chosen by God for a special mission. So then…I see by way of implication in your writing, that you agree that there is another realm, resistant to our present technological senses, which effects man’s feelings, thoughts, ideas etc. And, as I have concluded, that it contains all sorts of various entities and situations. And I have movd on from this conclusion to accept that szness is directly related to some highthened availability to influence from this other "realm". And…I also agree with you that entities which are not "alive" occupy this zone. Its a question of the limitations we face, here, in the spacial/temporal environment we occupy. Time does not exsist as we know it, space does not exsist as we know it. Life does not exsist as we know it, etc.,etc., Or to be more specific, human logic and understanding are useless when trying to deal with this realm because of the conditioning of the senses to the "material" world. I believe that even though logic and reason often fail in regards to this other "place" we can gain an "isness" . We can be exposed to what is, but it simply does not fit into the box of human reason. But we know it "is". I feel some progress can be made by dealing with the isness of it. Yeah its not a "place" as we know it, either. I’ve had some luck in getting a grip on it by accepting reason is insuffient, but accepting the "isness" of it, we can improve on our "symptom Management" techniques. Reason alone, is insuffient. Dam. http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit

Response:

By the way…ahem…. The first christians were jews. So that knife has two cutting edges on it. The whole story line is based on the Jews. Its preposterous to blame the Jews, when it was these very people who were chosen thousands of years beforehand to "produce" the savior. And…furthermore, it was these same chosen people who spread the Gospel of Christ. And yeah….the Roman’s crucified Christ. Historical fact. The records still exsist. Dambo http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit

Response:

damod…@webtv.net wrote:

<snipped some> dwn>And…furthermore, it was these same chosen people who spread the Gospel dwn>of Christ. dwn>And yeah….the Roman’s crucified Christ. dwn>Historical fact. The records still exist. NO!  Pontius Pilate found NO fault or crime in the man named Jesus Christ!   He washed hands of the whole affair!  The religious Jews killed Jesus Christ, the Jews were not allowed to execute people because they were a conquered the people.  There is a lot Zionism propaganda in the United States of America!:-(  The Church in Rome falsified the "records" for their own reasons.  The Church wants to keep the Sheeple ignorant for some reason?!! <chesucat grimaces> — chesucat_at_sdf_dit_lonestar_dot_org_dah! SDF Public Access UNIX System, Est. 1987 <http://sdf.lonestar.org/> "Hello, I’m a dirty white tomcat and I approved this message!"

Response:

Yes Chesure, it was a management decision to provide the crucifixtion for the jews. Unruly and difficult to govern bunch. Still, the whole magillah was a jewish story. Was Mary guilty? Were the jewish apostles guilty? Did the man on the street really care one way or the other? It was the Sanhedrine. Jesus was saying he was God and he could do these incredible acts and they wanted him trashed and out of business because he was disruptive to their political posture. Blame the clergy for killing Christ. It is a bit embarrasing but I remember when the Pope changed our mind and said they were not responsible for killing Christ. For a long time that was the Church’s view. Amazing….. It was a jewish story. We should as much be thankful to the jewish people for the Christ story as we should hold them guilty for Christ’s death. God took, speaking theologically and theoretically, thousands of years to prepare the Hebrews for the Birth of Christ. Blame God then for screwing up. He should have done a better job of preparation? Zionism? Dambo http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit

Response:

Hi, Damo.  God incarnated through Christ and did what all incarnated gods inevitably do–exhibit paranormal powers that dominated the life of the person he incarnated as, drew ancillary spritual entities like moths to a flame, and tried to be god-on-earth by seizing control of the power structure.  That’s what gods do when they enter a physical body.  They can’t help it.  What Yahweh should have foreseen is that the latter aspect of incarnated godhood–namely, gravitating toward being the leader and ruler of a people–would upset those wielding power and make them strike back.  In this case he upset the Jewish clergy of the time, who acted the way all power-wielders do; they moved to neutralize the threat to their interests.  If there is a Second Coming, he will face the same treatment at the hands of today’s Christian churches.  They will be his biggest enemies, and the Pope will move first to see him dead. BTW, a friend of mine believes that the Antichrist became Pope around the year 1,000 and just kept it quiet, steering the church in the wrong direction and doing his dirty work without making a big prodution out of it.  The result is what I call a sterile-ritual religion (SSR), where the celebratory rituals don’t invoke the appearance of a guiding spirit, the way, for example, Wiccan rituals do.  If the Antichrist indeed has already come and gone, he has caused God to turn his back on the church.   I would advise anyone who genuinely worships God to come up with a vernacular religion that puts that person back in touch with Him. My personal choice is to shun all contact with deaders of all types, be they gods or poltergeists or souls.  I just don’t like them and what they do to us, the living.  (Why my own soul is permitting me to make this choice is an open question.) -wl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -damod…@webtv.net wrote: > Yes Chesure, > it was a management decision to provide the crucifixtion for the jews. > Unruly and difficult to govern bunch. > Still, the whole magillah was a jewish story. Was Mary guilty? Were the > jewish apostles guilty? Did the man on the street really care one way or > the other? > It was the Sanhedrine. Jesus was saying he was God and he could do these > incredible acts and they wanted him trashed and out of business because > he was disruptive to their political posture. > Blame the clergy for killing Christ. > It is a bit embarrasing but I remember when the Pope changed our mind > and said they were not responsible for killing Christ. For a long time > that was the Church’s view. > Amazing….. > It was a jewish story. > We should as much be thankful to the jewish people for the Christ story > as we should hold them guilty for Christ’s death. > God took, speaking theologically and theoretically, thousands of years > to prepare the Hebrews for the Birth of Christ. Blame God then for > screwing up. > He should have done a better job of preparation? > Zionism? > Dambo > http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit

Response:

Wiggley, I know not to place full belief in my "memories" of the "forelife". And of course once some arab’s or Dafurian rebel has his brains turned into a pink mist floating across the desert what ever is left is certainly not all those patterns of electrical firings in our/their heads. However….Catholics believe you go right on, as the character you are in the here now. So do a lot of others. Yeah though, we can’t know. We’re built wrong to carry deffinative answers about the "other realm". I’m never heard the concept that we are mortal, but carry disincarnate immortal entities within us. Interesting concept. Fresh idea for me. Trying out my new schedualing pattern. That means I have to not read Sandie’s posts and get off line. Come back in the afternoon. Working on breaking patterns. Ate my fish oil and gingko. Time yto go see what I do, now. I haven’t had my guitar in hand for a couple days now. Just the way it goes. Bye, Damo http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit

Response:

Robert Smrdelj wrote: > Don

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – delusion that early Christianity resembled Islam. Can’t you read the decree of the first Christians Council at Jerusalem?  This is the first Christian document ever issued. I’m looking at Acts 15 right now, and it basically contains an endorsement of Paul (whom you seem to dislike so much), and at Acts 15:28-29 contains a brief summary of what later came to be known as "Noahide laws".  I fail to see what’s "Islamic" about that!  The Noahide law enjoins all of humanity to refrain from idolatry, adultery, and eating of animal blood, but does NOT forbid eating of pigs.  By contrast, Muslim law forbids eating of pigs.  So it seems that Acts 15:20 and 15:28-29 seems to be closer to the Noachide commandments than to Islam. I again question not only your self-proclaimed expertise

Please don’t twist my words — I’ve never claimed to be an expert in New Testament exegesis or theology (though I know more than enough to handle Dupie)!  Where I did claim to be close to an expert in many respects was Semitic linguistics.  Whether I am or not, I’m far closer to being an expert than you are there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_Laws

Whatever — I didn’t claim that the passages Acts 15:20 and 15:28-29 contain actual Jewish Talmudic Noahide law.  To spell out in full detail what I was implying:  The passages Acts 15:20 and 15:28-29 contain universalist and "proto-natural-law" type thinking of the same type which was later to lead to the Jewish Talmudic Noahide laws. 3. Do not worship false gods. 4. Do not be sexually immoral 5. Do not eat anything of the body of an unslaughtered animal

Yep, that’s certainly the general gist of verses Acts 15:20 and 15:28-29 in the New Testament.  Notice that pigs are not mentioned either in your source or in the New Testament passage. Now nowhere does it say that EVERYTHING is allowed except for pork.

It doesn’t mention pork at all.  The implication is that pork was not forbidden to non-Jewish Christian converts by the Jerusalem council, nor to non-Jews by the Noahide laws of the Talmud. Just because these laws do not ban something, it does not mean that one should not abide by other religious laws that are in existence.

In fact, verse Acts 15:28 talks about "no greater burden than these necessary things" — the whole decision of the council of Acts 15 was NOT to impose the full range of Jewish ritual law (including circumcision, not eating pork, etc.) onto non-Jewish Christian converts. If anything, some say that these laws are against Christianity.

Whatever — Acts 15:20 and 15:28-29 contain some currents of thought which were "in the air" in Jewish circles ca. 50 A.D., and were later written down on the Jewish side into the Noahide code of the Talmud. Acts 15:20 and 15:28-29 do not contain the full precise form of the Talmudic Noahaide laws, and I don’t feel like debating the latter at any length right now… — Some Qur’an quotes:  5:20  qaala muusaa  5:21 "yaa qawmi

Question:

Take careful note of what this man is saying, Sabina. He speaks the unvarnished truth in his above statements. As a former Christian myself, I can tell you that I agree with Tom 100%! So no one was ever inspired by God? I think you should call yourself a former church goer not a former Christian. God doesn’t *do* anything…God just is!

What do you mean by this? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -And, no Sabina, I was a sincere, Bible believing Christian for over 22 years. Shalom, Bill What is it that you and Tom wish to achieve in this newsgroup. ? You know I was replying to you about Jesus being the Son of God (or not according to you), not whether the bible is literally true. I can’t speak for Tom, but I hope to create an awareness of the truth about Christianity and religion in general here. The traditional Christian faith that you espouse is dying very rapidly, Sabina. I suggest that you read the book, "A New Christianity for a New World", by Bishop John Shelby Spong to find out why.

I will if it is published here in Britain Shalom, Bill

best wishes – are you sorry Don Suiter is no longer writing on here? — Sabina

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few: "Out of Egypt I called my son" This was not a prophecy of the coming of Christ and if you read the text in context you will see this. This is a reference to the children of Israel leaving Egypt. Originally according to the bible God’s plan was for the children of Israel, only they rejected Jesus when He came. Did you read the verse from which this came? Of course you didn’t or you summarily dismissed it. The "prophecy" is from Hosea 11: 1. The first verse says "When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." The writer of Hosea even specifies that he is referring to Israel. No way that this is a prophecy unless you are abandoning all reason and logic. "But you Bethlehem, in the land of Judah……for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel" This is from Micah and has nothing to do with a geographical place and everything to do with a group of people: "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity." That is your understanding. No Sabina that isn’t my understanding, that is what the verse says! You can read for yourself, can’t you? "He will be called a Nazarene" This is written in Matthew 2:23. In my reference book it says the prophet who said this is not known. So perhaps it was a bad example however: Yes, it is unknown because it was just more of Matthew’s myth making. try: Isaiah 43 -45 Try it for what??? There are three verses here. Can you be a bit more specific? Isaiah 51 – 53 Same here as above, except there are only two verses. Isaiah 55:3 This is a prophecy??? Have you forgotten what the subject is? Isaiah 42:1-4 ( just go to a performance of Handel’s Messiah this Christmas I see no prophecy here. or Jeremiah 33:14 -16 I see no prophecy fulfilled here. Just what prophecy do you think was fulfilled? This isn’t specific enough to be called a prophecy, even if this passage weren’t suspect. Zechariah 9:9 ("your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey") Sorry Sabina, this isn’t what it says. It says, "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." It says he is riding on an ass AND upon a colt, the foal of an ass. So how does he mange to ride both of these animals at the same time? That assumes that Jesus is the king being referenced in this passage and once more there is absolutely no reason to think this is a prediction of Jesus. Psalm 89:3 4 Yes, absolutely no reason whatsoever to connect this with Jesus. Sabina, you can’t even connect David to Jesus much less show that this applies to Jesus. Psalm 89: 36 Again, nothing more that the writings of the psalmist. also Psalm 2: which predicts the rejection of God’s "anointed" one. Circular reasoning. Would you kindle show mw where this prophecy is made? In other words, which chapter and verse of the Old Testament contains this prophecy. see above Please try not to cut sentences that belong together. It makes for difficult reading. "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.. the people living in darkness have seen a great light: on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned" And this is a prophecy in exactly what way????? Jesus Christ was and is "A light for the world" So? This isn’t the "light" that is referred to in these verses. Go to Isaiah 9:1, read the verses in question, then tell me just what it is that makes you think that Isaiah is referring to Jesus. Please read it for me and let me know your thoughts. also He spoke of God as father or more often "Abba" which is more like Dad or daddy. So? Don’t Christians even today refer to god as their heavenly father? "Jesus said to him "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no-one comes to the Father, but through Me" That is what is reported that he said. He did glorious, exciting and uncanny things which show the great truth about himself: walking on water; quietening a storm, shining with unearthly light. And which eyewitness reported on this? The writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are unknown. Paule says that he didn’t know Jesus, so how do you know these things are true? You give the answer to your own question. Whether anyone knew the four writers of the gospels is irrelevant. Of course it is relevant! If they didn’t know him everything that you are reading is hearsay. Please tell me the answer to my question that I supposedly gave you. However because of God’s promise, Christ is resurrected in one’s heart today through His Holy Spirit and when that happens men are able to testify to "glorious exciting and uncanny things". Yes, people in mental institutions do this all of the time. And Peter realised that this man was no less than God himself in fleshly form – the Christ the Messiah who had been in at the creation of the universe. Many attributes made here with no evidence at all. Plenty of evidence (if you believe it) after Jesus’ death we are told He appeared first of all to women. Now you know as well as I how women were regarded as inferior beings in those times.  :-) This brings up an interesting point. In Matthew he first appeared to both Mary’s. In Mark and John it was only to Mary Magdalene, In Luke it was Cleopas and another and in 1st Corinthians it was Cephas. As you can see for yourself, the bible itself isn’t too sure of "who saw whom and when" . The divine He showed himself to be the more He spoke about the necessity He faced to suffer and to  die for the remission of sins, in order to heal the broken relationship between God and Man – the fulfilment of God’s plan to save this whole unhappy, crazy world. Hey, if god is omnipotent, omniscient and all that other "jazz" then it is his fault that this world is crazy. The condition of the world today and the proliferation of thousands of religions and sects along with a reading of the bible, especially the Old Testament, should give a clue to all but the most rabid believer that something isn’t right in Denmark. Oh come on you don’t really need me to tell you about Adam and Eve and their choice to obey or disobey God and the choice they made which caused man’s spiritual death and separation from God do you? The bible is all about God constantly trying to bring his people back to him. I know all about Adam and Eve as told in the bible. I know that God placed these people in the Garden of Eden and told them not to eat of the fruits of two trees, one of which was the "tree of knowledge". So tell me Sabina, who are these persons supposed to know the difference between right and wrong when they haven’t been taught. Remember, they only used fig leaves after they ate the fruit, not before then, so they really didn’t know right from wrong. Also, doesn’t the bible say that the sins of the father are not passed to the sons. I think you need to read that. Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us". Assuming that the bible is correct, Jesus was raised from the dead, it doesn’t say anywhere that he raised himself. He also didn’t know the time and place of the second coming and that is a little suspicious if the god Jesus doesn’t know that. The second coming took place when the Holy Spirit filled the disciples who then went out to spread the Good News. That doesn’t at all address my point of Jesus not having the knowledge of God. it is a pretty safe assumption then that Jesus wasn’t god and that god wasn’t on earth.  Look at the effect on his followers who had run away: those wonderful Easter days when they kept meeting Him, eating with Him, touching His hands, seeing His familiar gestures, hearing His familiar voice, changed them utterly. Those stories changed them, but they didn’t meet anyone. Duh? The disciples changed but they didn’t meet

… read more »

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few: "Out of Egypt I called my son" This was not a prophecy of the coming of Christ and if you read the text in context you will see this. This is a reference to the children of Israel leaving Egypt. Originally according to the bible God’s plan was for the children of Israel, only they rejected Jesus when He came. Did you read the verse from which this came? Of course you didn’t or you summarily dismissed it. The "prophecy" is from Hosea 11: 1. The first verse says "When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." The writer of Hosea even specifies that he is referring to Israel. No way that this is a prophecy unless you are abandoning all reason and logic. "But you Bethlehem, in the land of Judah……for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel" This is from Micah and has nothing to do with a geographical place and everything to do with a group of people: "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity." That is your understanding. No Sabina that isn’t my understanding, that is what the verse says! You can read for yourself, can’t you? "He will be called a Nazarene" This is written in Matthew 2:23. In my reference book it says the prophet who said this is not known. So perhaps it was a bad example however: Yes, it is unknown because it was just more of Matthew’s myth making. try: Isaiah 43 -45 Try it for what??? There are three verses here. Can you be a bit more specific? Isaiah 51 – 53 Same here as above, except there are only two verses. Isaiah 55:3 This is a prophecy??? Have you forgotten what the subject is? Isaiah 42:1-4 ( just go to a performance of Handel’s Messiah this Christmas I see no prophecy here. or Jeremiah 33:14 -16 I see no prophecy fulfilled here. Just what prophecy do you think was fulfilled? This isn’t specific enough to be called a prophecy, even if this passage weren’t suspect. Zechariah 9:9 ("your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey") Sorry Sabina, this isn’t what it says. It says, "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." It says he is riding on an ass AND upon a colt, the foal of an ass. So how does he mange to ride both of these animals at the same time? That assumes that Jesus is the king being referenced in this passage and once more there is absolutely no reason to think this is a prediction of Jesus. Psalm 89:3 4 Yes, absolutely no reason whatsoever to connect this with Jesus. Sabina, you can’t even connect David to Jesus much less show that this applies to Jesus. Psalm 89: 36 Again, nothing more that the writings of the psalmist. also Psalm 2: which predicts the rejection of God’s "anointed" one. Circular reasoning. Would you kindle show mw where this prophecy is made? In other words, which chapter and verse of the Old Testament contains this prophecy. see above Please try not to cut sentences that belong together. It makes for difficult reading. "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.. the people living in darkness have seen a great light: on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned" And this is a prophecy in exactly what way????? Jesus Christ was and is "A light for the world" So? This isn’t the "light" that is referred to in these verses. Go to Isaiah 9:1, read the verses in question, then tell me just what it is that makes you think that Isaiah is referring to Jesus. Please read it for me and let me know your thoughts. also He spoke of God as father or more often "Abba" which is more like Dad or daddy. So? Don’t Christians even today refer to god as their heavenly father? "Jesus said to him "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no-one comes to the Father, but through Me" That is what is reported that he said. He did glorious, exciting and uncanny things which show the great truth about himself: walking on water; quietening a storm, shining with unearthly light. And which eyewitness reported on this? The writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are unknown. Paule says that he didn’t know Jesus, so how do you know these things are true? You give the answer to your own question. Whether anyone knew the four writers of the gospels is irrelevant. Of course it is relevant! If they didn’t know him everything that you are reading is hearsay. Please tell me the answer to my question that I supposedly gave you. However because of God’s promise, Christ is resurrected in one’s heart today through His Holy Spirit and when that happens men are able to testify to "glorious exciting and uncanny things". Yes, people in mental institutions do this all of the time. And Peter realised that this man was no less than God himself in fleshly form – the Christ the Messiah who had been in at the creation of the universe. Many attributes made here with no evidence at all. Plenty of evidence (if you believe it) after Jesus’ death we are told He appeared first of all to women. Now you know as well as I how women were regarded as inferior beings in those times.  :-) This brings up an interesting point. In Matthew he first appeared to both Mary’s. In Mark and John it was only to Mary Magdalene, In Luke it was Cleopas and another and in 1st Corinthians it was Cephas. As you can see for yourself, the bible itself isn’t too sure of "who saw whom and when" . The divine He showed himself to be the more He spoke about the necessity He faced to suffer and to  die for the remission of sins, in order to heal the broken relationship between God and Man – the fulfilment of God’s plan to save this whole unhappy, crazy world. Hey, if god is omnipotent, omniscient and all that other "jazz" then it is his fault that this world is crazy. The condition of the world today and the proliferation of thousands of religions and sects along with a reading of the bible, especially the Old Testament, should give a clue to all but the most rabid believer that something isn’t right in Denmark. Oh come on you don’t really need me to tell you about Adam and Eve and their choice to obey or disobey God and the choice they made which caused man’s spiritual death and separation from God do you? The bible is all about God constantly trying to bring his people back to him. I know all about Adam and Eve as told in the bible. I know that God placed these people in the Garden of Eden and told them not to eat of the fruits of two trees, one of which was the "tree of knowledge". So tell me Sabina, who are these persons supposed to know the difference between right and wrong when they haven’t been taught. Remember, they only used fig leaves after they ate the fruit, not before then, so they really didn’t know right from wrong. Also, doesn’t the bible say that the sins of the father are not passed to the sons. I think you need to read that. Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us". Assuming that the bible is correct, Jesus was raised from the dead, it doesn’t say anywhere that he raised himself. He also didn’t know the time and place of the second coming and that is a little suspicious if the god Jesus doesn’t know that. The second coming took place when the Holy Spirit filled the disciples who then went out to spread the Good News. That doesn’t at all address my point of Jesus not having the knowledge of God. it is a pretty safe assumption then that Jesus wasn’t god and that god wasn’t on earth.  Look at the effect on his followers who had run away: those wonderful Easter days when they kept meeting Him, eating with Him, touching His hands, seeing His familiar gestures, hearing His familiar voice, changed them utterly. Those stories changed them, but they didn’t meet anyone. Duh? The disciples changed but they didn’t meet Jesus. Did you know that there were several gods in the times of Jesus who were crucified and went to heaven and returned in some form or fashion? I only know one God. Then you need to study the history of the times in which Jesus was on earth. There are many stories of gods and crucifictions from those times. Whether you know them or not is relevant to the fact that those gods were worshipped during that time. In His name now the

… read more »

Response:

True lies. [] — Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale. Vote for Bush.  Why vote for the lesser of two evils? No matter the candidates the superstition industry wins. ‘Jesus’ is a sock-puppet Christians utilize to add ‘authority’ to whatever action they intend on taking.  -Stoney And Duty Imp and Rapscallion

Response:

Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few:

Tom before I continue I addressed Bill with regard to him saying there is nothing in the Bible to state that Jesus is God. I am not addressing the title of the post. If you want my opinion on the Bible it is divine and human. Truth and fact are not the same. Many biblical stories are true though not  historically accurate of factual. They are concerned with proclaiming a message. There is the history of the human family and there is poetry in the Bible. I believe God’s Holy Spirit inspired the writers and His Holy Spirit inspires us today in helping to understand His word. We learn from the OT how God works, most unexpected ways God’s history focuses on those who hold faithful to him regardless of how things turn out. Faith is what He wants, the heroes who emerge are heroes of faith, not strength or wealth. try: Isaiah 43 -45 Try it for what???

Prophecies of a Messiah There are three verses here. Can you be a bit more specific? Isaiah 51 – 53 Same here as above, except there are only two verses. Isaiah 55:3

These are chapters I am talking about not verses. Go to Isaiah 9:1, read the verses in question, then tell me just what it is that makes you think that Isaiah is referring to Jesus. Please read it for me and let me know your thoughts.

I think the whole of the OT serves as a preparation for Jesus, with the characters on its pages contributing a family, an identity, and a race for Jesus to be born into. What did God have in mind with the long convoluted story of the Hebrews?  The answer of the NT is unequivocal: Jesus is what God had in mind. He came to reconcile humanity to God by extending God’s kingdom beyond the boundaries of race to the entire world. Isaiah 9:1  Verse 1 is an introductory note to the poem which captures the celebration and hope following the birth of a new prince to continue the line of David. Three reasons for celebration are given: the yoke of the oppressor has been broken(v4) the gear of battle has been destroyed (v5) and a new crown prince has been born(v6-7). Paule says that he didn’t know Jesus, so how do you know these things are true? You give the answer to your own question. Whether anyone knew the four writers of the gospels is irrelevant. Of course it is relevant! If they didn’t know him everything that you are reading is hearsay. Please tell me the answer to my question that I supposedly gave you.

Because I believe Jesus  "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them" He said on the Sermon on the Mount. He chided devout Jewish detractors, "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. THESE ARE THE SCRIPTURES THAT TESTIFY ABOUT ME (my capitals) yet you refuse to come to me to have life" However because of God’s promise, Christ is resurrected in one’s heart today through His Holy Spirit and when that happens men are able to testify to "glorious exciting and uncanny things". Yes, people in mental institutions do this all of the time.

Have you ever visited a mental institution? So tell me Sabina, who are these persons supposed to know the difference between right and wrong when they haven’t been taught. Remember, they only used fig leaves after they ate the fruit, not before then, so they really didn’t know right from wrong.

Who taught you right and wrong? God is spirit Tom – He breathes His life-giving spirit on people and then waits to see whether those people choose the life He offers. They are people who disobeyed God – They did know what God had told them i.e. not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Also, doesn’t the bible say that the sins of the father are not passed to the sons. I think you need to read that.

Yes I read that and I don’t like it – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us". Assuming that the bible is correct, Jesus was raised from the dead, it doesn’t say anywhere that he raised himself. He also didn’t know the time and place of the second coming and that is a little suspicious if the god Jesus doesn’t know that. The second coming took place when the Holy Spirit filled the disciples who then went out to spread the Good News. That doesn’t at all address my point of Jesus not having the knowledge of God. it is a pretty safe assumption then that Jesus wasn’t god and that god wasn’t on earth.

I would say the opposite in view of the truth. The disciples changed but they didn’t meet Jesus.

I’m not here to argue theology: I have a living faith and therefore a close relationship with God. An alive faith has a salvation, a wholeness to offer our broken and fragmented world. It can bring us justice and equality founded in the love joy and peace of the Spirit that Jesus brought to the people of His day. Those of us who follow Jesus Christ are led by His spirit. This Spirit of Christ means we are vitally alive. It does not mean we live as He lived as a Judean in the first century. I is a matter of discovering Jesus’ attitude and allowing the living Christ to inspire that attitude in us today. "For God is at work in you" said Paul It is God who impels us to become whole people, which is what salvation is. God is the one who generates the new life in us, modelled after the life of Jesus of Nazareth without being a replica of his life. Quite frankly because of Constantine. Without his providing legitimacy to the Christian religion it would not have survived. There were very few "Christians" in this world by the time the last disciple died, so yes, they were failures in "Christianizing" the known world.

I don’t accept this. Not quite. Do a little research outside of the propaganda that your religion feeds you. You will be amazed.

I have enough amazement living the life I have thank you. That is your opinion.

You are wrong. Yes I attend a church, I have a great fellowship there with like minded friends, I love singing I think the words of the hymns are beautiful, I enjoy some preachers and identify with them, others I don’t. I’m often much closer to God in a beauty spot alone than in a building. Yes, and I see that it will never be yours as long as you deny the obvious.

the obvious being what? snipped for space All are words written by man which have no greater meaning then the words that I am writing now.

I’m sorry but I am not for one minute convinced that you are moved by the same spirit that inspired the writers of the OT. best wishes — Sabina

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few: "Out of Egypt I called my son" This was not a prophecy of the coming of Christ and if you read the text in context you will see this. This is a reference to the children of Israel leaving Egypt. Originally according to the bible God’s plan was for the children of Israel, only they rejected Jesus when He came. Did you read the verse from which this came? Of course you didn’t or you summarily dismissed it. The "prophecy" is from Hosea 11: 1. The first verse says "When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." The writer of Hosea even specifies that he is referring to Israel. No way that this is a prophecy unless you are abandoning all reason and logic. "But you Bethlehem, in the land of Judah……for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel" This is from Micah and has nothing to do with a geographical place and everything to do with a group of people: "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity." That is your understanding. No Sabina that isn’t my understanding, that is what the verse says! You can read for yourself, can’t you? "He will be called a Nazarene" This is written in Matthew 2:23. In my reference book it says the prophet who said this is not known. So perhaps it was a bad example however: Yes, it is unknown because it was just more of Matthew’s myth making. try: Isaiah 43 -45 Try it for what??? There are three verses here. Can you be a bit more specific? Isaiah 51 – 53 Same here as above, except there are only two verses. Isaiah 55:3 This is a prophecy??? Have you forgotten what the subject is? Isaiah 42:1-4 ( just go to a performance of Handel’s Messiah this Christmas I see no prophecy here. or Jeremiah 33:14 -16 I see no prophecy fulfilled here. Just what prophecy do you think was fulfilled? This isn’t specific enough to be called a prophecy, even if this passage weren’t suspect. Zechariah 9:9 ("your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey") Sorry Sabina, this isn’t what it says. It says, "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." It says he is riding on an ass AND upon a colt, the foal of an ass. So how does he mange to ride both of these animals at the same time? That assumes that Jesus is the king being referenced in this passage and once more there is absolutely no reason to think this is a prediction of Jesus. Psalm 89:3 4 Yes, absolutely no reason whatsoever to connect this with Jesus. Sabina, you can’t even connect David to Jesus much less show that this applies to Jesus. Psalm 89: 36 Again, nothing more that the writings of the psalmist. also Psalm 2: which predicts the rejection of God’s "anointed" one. Circular reasoning. Would you kindle show mw where this prophecy is made? In other words, which chapter and verse of the Old Testament contains this prophecy. see above Please try not to cut sentences that belong together. It makes for difficult reading. "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.. the people living in darkness have seen a great light: on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned" And this is a prophecy in exactly what way????? Jesus Christ was and is "A light for the world" So? This isn’t the "light" that is referred to in these verses. Go to Isaiah 9:1, read the verses in question, then tell me just what it is that makes you think that Isaiah is referring to Jesus. Please read it for me and let me know your thoughts. also He spoke of God as father or more often "Abba" which is more like Dad or daddy. So? Don’t Christians even today refer to god as their heavenly father? "Jesus said to him "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no-one comes to the Father, but through Me" That is what is reported that he said. He did glorious, exciting and uncanny things which show the great truth about himself: walking on water; quietening a storm, shining with unearthly light. And which eyewitness reported on this? The writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are unknown. Paule says that he didn’t know Jesus, so how do you know these things are true? You give the answer to your own question. Whether anyone knew the four writers of the gospels is irrelevant. Of course it is relevant! If they didn’t know him everything that you are reading is hearsay. Please tell me the answer to my question that I supposedly gave you. However because of God’s promise, Christ is resurrected in one’s heart today through His Holy Spirit and when that happens men are able to testify to "glorious exciting and uncanny things". Yes, people in mental institutions do this all of the time. And Peter realised that this man was no less than God himself in fleshly form – the Christ the Messiah who had been in at the creation of the universe. Many attributes made here with no evidence at all. Plenty of evidence (if you believe it) after Jesus’ death we are told He appeared first of all to women. Now you know as well as I how women were regarded as inferior beings in those times.  :-) This brings up an interesting point. In Matthew he first appeared to both Mary’s. In Mark and John it was only to Mary Magdalene, In Luke it was Cleopas and another and in 1st Corinthians it was Cephas. As you can see for yourself, the bible itself isn’t too sure of "who saw whom and when" . The divine He showed himself to be the more He spoke about the necessity He faced to suffer and to  die for the remission of sins, in order to heal the broken relationship between God and Man – the fulfilment of God’s plan to save this whole unhappy, crazy world. Hey, if god is omnipotent, omniscient and all that other "jazz" then it is his fault that this world is crazy. The condition of the world today and the proliferation of thousands of religions and sects along with a reading of the bible, especially the Old Testament, should give a clue to all but the most rabid believer that something isn’t right in Denmark. Oh come on you don’t really need me to tell you about Adam and Eve and their choice to obey or disobey God and the choice they made which caused man’s spiritual death and separation from God do you? The bible is all about God constantly trying to bring his people back to him. I know all about Adam and Eve as told in the bible. I know that God placed these people in the Garden of Eden and told them not to eat of the fruits of two trees, one of which was the "tree of knowledge". So tell me Sabina, who are these persons supposed to know the difference between right and wrong when they haven’t been taught. Remember, they only used fig leaves after they ate the fruit, not before then, so they really didn’t know right from wrong. Also, doesn’t the bible say that the sins of the father are not passed to the sons. I think you need to read that. Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us". Assuming that the bible is correct, Jesus was raised from the dead, it doesn’t say anywhere that he raised himself. He also didn’t know the time and place of the second coming and that is a little suspicious if the god Jesus doesn’t know that. The second coming took place when the Holy Spirit filled the disciples who then went out to spread the Good News. That doesn’t at all address my point of Jesus not having the knowledge of God. it is a pretty safe assumption then that Jesus wasn’t god and that god wasn’t on earth.  Look at the effect on his followers who had run away: those wonderful Easter days when they kept meeting Him, eating with Him, touching His hands, seeing His familiar gestures, hearing His familiar voice, changed them utterly. Those stories changed them, but they didn’t meet anyone. Duh? The disciples changed but they didn’t meet Jesus. Did you know that there were several gods in the times of Jesus who were crucified and went to heaven and returned in some form or fashion? I only know one God. Then you need to study the history of the times in which Jesus was on earth. There are many stories of gods and crucifictions from those times. Whether you know them or not is relevant to the fact that those gods were worshipped during that time. In His name now the could and did face martyrdom if it came: nothing was too hard for them and they set about joyfully Christianising the known world. At which, by the way, they were abject failures How come we are discussing it 2000 years later if they were so bad? Quite frankly because of Constantine. Without his providing legitimacy

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Response:

Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few: "Out of Egypt I called my son" This was not a prophecy of the coming of Christ and if you read the text in context you will see this. This is a reference to the children of Israel leaving Egypt. Originally according to the bible God’s plan was for the children of Israel, only they rejected Jesus when He came.

Did you read the verse from which this came? Of course you didn’t or you summarily dismissed it. The "prophecy" is from Hosea 11: 1. The first verse says "When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." The writer of Hosea even specifies that he is referring to Israel. No way that this is a prophecy unless you are abandoning all reason and logic. "But you Bethlehem, in the land of Judah……for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel" This is from Micah and has nothing to do with a geographical place and everything to do with a group of people: "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity." That is your understanding.

No Sabina that isn’t my understanding, that is what the verse says! You can read for yourself, can’t you? "He will be called a Nazarene" This is written in Matthew 2:23. In my reference book it says the prophet who said this is not known. So perhaps it was a bad example however:

Yes, it is unknown because it was just more of Matthew’s myth making. try: Isaiah 43 -45

Try it for what??? There are three verses here. Can you be a bit more specific? Isaiah 51 – 53

Same here as above, except there are only two verses. Isaiah 55:3

This is a prophecy??? Have you forgotten what the subject is? Isaiah 42:1-4 ( just go to a performance of Handel’s Messiah this Christmas

I see no prophecy here. or Jeremiah 33:14 -16

I see no prophecy fulfilled here. Just what prophecy do you think was fulfilled? This isn’t specific enough to be called a prophecy, even if this passage weren’t suspect. Zechariah 9:9 ("your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey")

Sorry Sabina, this isn’t what it says. It says, "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." It says he is riding on an ass AND upon a colt, the foal of an ass. So how does he mange to ride both of these animals at the same time? That assumes that Jesus is the king being referenced in this passage and once more there is absolutely no reason to think this is a prediction of Jesus. Psalm 89:3 4

Yes, absolutely no reason whatsoever to connect this with Jesus. Sabina, you can’t even connect David to Jesus much less show that this applies to Jesus. Psalm 89: 36

Again, nothing more that the writings of the psalmist. also Psalm 2: which predicts the rejection of God’s "anointed" one.

Circular reasoning. Would you kindle show mw where this prophecy is made? In other words, which chapter and verse of the Old Testament contains this prophecy. see above

Please try not to cut sentences that belong together. It makes for difficult reading. "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.. the people living in darkness have seen a great light: on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned" And this is a prophecy in exactly what way????? Jesus Christ was and is "A light for the world"

So? This isn’t the "light" that is referred to in these verses. Go to Isaiah 9:1, read the verses in question, then tell me just what it is that makes you think that Isaiah is referring to Jesus. Please read it for me and let me know your thoughts. also He spoke of God as father or more often "Abba" which is more like Dad or daddy. So? Don’t Christians even today refer to god as their heavenly father? "Jesus said to him "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no-one comes to the Father, but through Me"

 That is what is reported that he said. He did glorious, exciting and uncanny things which show the great truth about himself: walking on water; quietening a storm, shining with unearthly light. And which eyewitness reported on this? The writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are unknown. Paule says that he didn’t know Jesus, so how do you know these things are true? You give the answer to your own question. Whether anyone knew the four writers of the gospels is irrelevant.

Of course it is relevant! If they didn’t know him everything that you are reading is hearsay. Please tell me the answer to my question that I supposedly gave you. However because of God’s promise, Christ is resurrected in one’s heart today through His Holy Spirit and when that happens men are able to testify to "glorious exciting and uncanny things".

Yes, people in mental institutions do this all of the time. And Peter realised that this man was no less than God himself in fleshly form – the Christ the Messiah who had been in at the creation of the universe. Many attributes made here with no evidence at all. Plenty of evidence (if you believe it) after Jesus’ death we are told He appeared first of all to women. Now you know as well as I how women were regarded as inferior beings in those times.  :-)

This brings up an interesting point. In Matthew he first appeared to both Mary’s. In Mark and John it was only to Mary Magdalene, In Luke it was Cleopas and another and in 1st Corinthians it was Cephas. As you can see for yourself, the bible itself isn’t too sure of "who saw whom and when" . The divine He showed himself to be the more He spoke about the necessity He faced to suffer and to  die for the remission of sins, in order to heal the broken relationship between God and Man – the fulfilment of God’s plan to save this whole unhappy, crazy world. Hey, if god is omnipotent, omniscient and all that other "jazz" then it is his fault that this world is crazy. The condition of the world today and the proliferation of thousands of religions and sects along with a reading of the bible, especially the Old Testament, should give a clue to all but the most rabid believer that something isn’t right in Denmark. Oh come on you don’t really need me to tell you about Adam and Eve and their choice to obey or disobey God and the choice they made which caused man’s spiritual death and separation from God do you? The bible is all about God constantly trying to bring his people back to him.

I know all about Adam and Eve as told in the bible. I know that God placed these people in the Garden of Eden and told them not to eat of the fruits of two trees, one of which was the "tree of knowledge". So tell me Sabina, who are these persons supposed to know the difference between right and wrong when they haven’t been taught. Remember, they only used fig leaves after they ate the fruit, not before then, so they really didn’t know right from wrong. Also, doesn’t the bible say that the sins of the father are not passed to the sons. I think you need to read that. Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us". Assuming that the bible is correct, Jesus was raised from the dead, it doesn’t say anywhere that he raised himself. He also didn’t know the time and place of the second coming and that is a little suspicious if the god Jesus doesn’t know that. The second coming took place when the Holy Spirit filled the disciples who then went out to spread the Good News.

That doesn’t at all address my point of Jesus not having the knowledge of God. it is a pretty safe assumption then that Jesus wasn’t god and that god wasn’t on earth.  Look at the effect on his followers who had run away: those wonderful Easter days when they kept meeting Him, eating with Him, touching His hands, seeing His familiar gestures, hearing His familiar voice, changed them utterly. Those stories changed them, but they didn’t meet anyone. Duh?

The disciples changed but they didn’t meet Jesus. Did you know that there were several gods in the times of Jesus who were crucified and went to heaven and returned in some form or fashion? I only know one God.

Then you need to study the history of the times in which Jesus was on earth. There are many stories of gods and crucifictions from those times. Whether you know them or not is relevant to the fact that those gods were worshipped during that time. In His name now the could and did face martyrdom if it came: nothing was too hard for them and they set about joyfully Christianising the known world. At which, by the way, they were abject failures How come we are discussing it 2000 years later if they were so bad?

Quite frankly because of Constantine. Without his providing legitimacy to the Christian religion it would not have survived. There were very few "Christians" in this world by the time the last disciple died, so yes, they were failures in "Christianizing" the known world. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nobody would change like this for a lie, a fairy tale or a vague rumour. Then how do you explain Islam, Mormonism, David Koresch, Jim Jones and all of the other religious sects? I suspect some of the above claim Jesus

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Response:

Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few: "Out of Egypt I called my son" This was not a prophecy of the coming of Christ and if you read the text in context you will see this. This is a reference to the children of Israel leaving Egypt.

Originally according to the bible God’s plan was for the children of Israel, only they rejected Jesus when He came. "But you Bethlehem, in the land of Judah……for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel" This is from Micah and has nothing to do with a geographical place and everything to do with a group of people: "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity."

That is your understanding. "He will be called a Nazarene"

This is written in Matthew 2:23. In my reference book it says the prophet who said this is not known. So perhaps it was a bad example however: try: Isaiah 43 -45 Isaiah 51 – 53 Isaiah 55:3 Isaiah 42:1-4 ( just go to a performance of Handel’s Messiah this Christmas or Jeremiah 33:14 -16 Zechariah 9:9 ("your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey") Psalm 89:3 4 Psalm 89: 36 also Psalm 2: which predicts the rejection of God’s "anointed" one. Would you kindle show mw where this prophecy is made? In other words, which chapter and verse of the Old Testament contains this prophecy. see above "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.. the people living in darkness have seen a great light: on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned" And this is a prophecy in exactly what way?????

Jesus Christ was and is "A light for the world" also He spoke of God as father or more often "Abba" which is more like Dad or daddy. So? Don’t Christians even today refer to god as their heavenly father?

"Jesus said to him "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no-one comes to the Father, but through Me" He did glorious, exciting and uncanny things which show the great truth about himself: walking on water; quietening a storm, shining with unearthly light. And which eyewitness reported on this? The writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are unknown. Paule says that he didn’t know Jesus, so how do you know these things are true?

You give the answer to your own question. Whether anyone knew the four writers of the gospels is irrelevant. However because of God’s promise, Christ is resurrected in one’s heart today through His Holy Spirit and when that happens men are able to testify to "glorious exciting and uncanny things". And Peter realised that this man was no less than God himself in fleshly form – the Christ the Messiah who had been in at the creation of the universe. Many attributes made here with no evidence at all.

Plenty of evidence (if you believe it) after Jesus’ death we are told He appeared first of all to women. Now you know as well as I how women were regarded as inferior beings in those times.  :-) The divine He showed himself to be the more He spoke about the necessity He faced to suffer and to  die for the remission of sins, in order to heal the broken relationship between God and Man – the fulfilment of God’s plan to save this whole unhappy, crazy world. Hey, if god is omnipotent, omniscient and all that other "jazz" then it is his fault that this world is crazy. The condition of the world today and the proliferation of thousands of religions and sects along with a reading of the bible, especially the Old Testament, should give a clue to all but the most rabid believer that something isn’t right in Denmark.

Oh come on you don’t really need me to tell you about Adam and Eve and their choice to obey or disobey God and the choice they made which caused man’s spiritual death and separation from God do you? The bible is all about God constantly trying to bring his people back to him. Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us". Assuming that the bible is correct, Jesus was raised from the dead, it doesn’t say anywhere that he raised himself. He also didn’t know the time and place of the second coming and that is a little suspicious if the god Jesus doesn’t know that.

The second coming took place when the Holy Spirit filled the disciples who then went out to spread the Good News.  Look at the effect on his followers who had run away: those wonderful Easter days when they kept meeting Him, eating with Him, touching His hands, seeing His familiar gestures, hearing His familiar voice, changed them utterly. Those stories changed them, but they didn’t meet anyone. Duh? Did you know that there were several gods in the times of Jesus who were crucified and went to heaven and returned in some form or fashion?

I only know one God. In His name now the could and did face martyrdom if it came: nothing was too hard for them and they set about joyfully Christianising the known world. At which, by the way, they were abject failures

How come we are discussing it 2000 years later if they were so bad? Nobody would change like this for a lie, a fairy tale or a vague rumour. Then how do you explain Islam, Mormonism, David Koresch, Jim Jones and all of the other religious sects?

I suspect some of the above claim Jesus cannot be the Son of God, or a true prophet because He said He was coming back in the first century and they believe He did not do so.  Some of the others sought satisfaction in the creature, instead of the Creator – to seek satisfaction in the works of himself which can only be found in God. And they maybe had that "Fatal disease, the love of the world, which is indeed deeply rooted in our nature, "the pride of life" the desire of praise, of the honour that cometh of men" They had seen Him, alive for ever more, and they knew He had overcome not just sin, but death, turning it into the gateway to eternal life. Not quite. Do a little research outside of the propaganda that your religion feeds you. You will be amazed.

That is your opinion. I suggest instead in the words of John Wesley "By repentance and lowliness of heart, the deadly disease of pride is healed; that of self-will by resignation, a meek and thankful submission to the will of God; and for the love of the world in all its branches, the love of God is the sovereign remedy (he is talking about sin). Now this is properly religion, "faith" thus "working by love" working the genuine meek humility, entire deadness to the world, with a loving, thankful acquiescence in, and conformity to, the whole will and word of God". Finally, God (in the bible) keeps His promises in spite of anything man can do. "What if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God of no effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true and everyman a liar!" (Romans 3:3). Man’s rebellion does not postpone or prevent God’s purposes. — Sabina

Response:

Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few: "Out of Egypt I called my son"

This was not a prophecy of the coming of Christ and if you read the text in context you will see this. This is a reference to the children of Israel leaving Egypt. "But you Bethlehem, in the land of Judah……for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel"

This is from Micah and has nothing to do with a geographical place and everything to do with a group of people: "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity." "He will be called a Nazarene"

Would you kindle show mw where this prophecy is made? In other words, which chapter and verse of the Old Testament contains this prophecy. "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.. the people living in darkness have seen a great light: on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned"

And this is a prophecy in exactly what way????? also He spoke of God as father or more often "Abba" which is more like Dad or daddy.

So? Don’t Christians even today refer to god as their heavenly father? He did glorious, exciting and uncanny things which show the great truth about himself: walking on water; quietening a storm, shining with unearthly light.

And which eyewitness reported on this? The writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are unknown. Paule says that he didn’t know Jesus, so how do you know these things are true? And Peter realised that this man was no less than God himself in fleshly form – the Christ the Messiah who had been in at the creation of the universe.

Many attributes made here with no evidence at all. The divine He showed himself to be the more He spoke about the necessity He faced to suffer and to  die for the remission of sins, in order to heal the broken relationship between God and Man – the fulfilment of God’s plan to save this whole unhappy, crazy world.

Hey, if god is omnipotent, omniscient and all that other "jazz" then it is his fault that this world is crazy. The condition of the world today and the proliferation of thousands of religions and sects along with a reading of the bible, especially the Old Testament, should give a clue to all but the most rabid believer that something isn’t right in Denmark. Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us".

Assuming that the bible is correct, Jesus was raised from the dead, it doesn’t say anywhere that he raised himself. He also didn’t know the time and place of the second coming and that is a little suspicious if the god Jesus doesn’t know that.  Look at the effect on his followers who had run away: those wonderful Easter days when they kept meeting Him, eating with Him, touching His hands, seeing His familiar gestures, hearing His familiar voice, changed them utterly.

Those stories changed them, but they didn’t meet anyone. Did you know that there were several gods in the times of Jesus who were crucified and went to heaven and returned in some form or fashion? In His name now the could and did face martyrdom if it came: nothing was too hard for them and they set about joyfully Christianising the known world.

At which, by the way, they were abject failures Nobody would change like this for a lie, a fairy tale or a vague rumour.

Then how do you explain Islam, Mormonism, David Koresch, Jim Jones and all of the other religious sects? They had seen Him, alive for ever more, and they knew He had overcome not just sin, but death, turning it into the gateway to eternal life.

Not quite. Do a little research outside of the propaganda that your religion feeds you. You will be amazed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sabina

Response:

Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few: "Out of Egypt I called my son" "But you Bethlehem, in the land of Judah……for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel" "He will be called a Nazarene" "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.. the people living in darkness have seen a great light: on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned" also He spoke of God as father or more often "Abba" which is more like Dad or daddy.   He did glorious, exciting and uncanny things which show the great truth about himself: walking on water; quietening a storm, shining with unearthly light. And Peter realised that this man was no less than God himself in fleshly form – the Christ the Messiah who had been in at the creation of the universe. The divine He showed himself to be the more He spoke about the necessity He faced to suffer and to  die for the remission of sins, in order to heal the broken relationship between God and Man – the fulfilment of God’s plan to save this whole unhappy, crazy world. Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us".  Look at the effect on his followers who had run away: those wonderful Easter days when they kept meeting Him, eating with Him, touching His hands, seeing His familiar gestures, hearing His familiar voice, changed them utterly. In His name now the could and did face martyrdom if it came: nothing was too hard for them and they set about joyfully Christianising the known world. Nobody would change like this for a lie, a fairy tale or a vague rumour. They had seen Him, alive for ever more, and they knew He had overcome not just sin, but death, turning it into the gateway to eternal life. — Sabina

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ["Followup-To:" nach alt.religion.christian gesetzt.] the person everybody: The Bible was not dictated by god to mortal scribes; it was written and embellished by some 40 authors – claimed prophets, kings, politicians and clergymen in a variety of styles over a 1600 year period. It was written  in Hebrew, Greek (vernacular), Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic and Latin. On stone, wood, clay, goatskin and papyrus. It is an amalgam of history, tales and fiction. It is so abstruse that almost any interpretation that one likes can be claimed. It is a strange mixture of diverse human documents, metaphors, allegories, history and fables and irreconcilable notions. Inspired? The Bible is not even intelligent. It is not even good craftsmanship, but is full of absurdities and contradictions. If this is the word of God, God is in serious need of mental help. Not _all_ of it are the _words_ of God, we have men, Kings Angels woman Satan etc. etc. speak. The words that God has spoken might fit onto a very small number of pages if not _one_ page. One needs to take into consideration that God send Adam and Eve out of the Garden, and they trough their disobedience to God lost the word of God. The Bible is a textbook of the truth, teaching a small portion of God’s eternal truth. It is also a confession-book (at least the OT) as it describes how sinful humans (Israelites) behaved. If the Jesus story is true, why did Jesus only communicate with a miniscule portion of the worlds population for only a relatively few years? Well back then He could not use the tools that we have today, TV, telephones, Internet, high-speed trains airplanes to carry his message into all corners of the Globe.

What, he needed humans to invent them first?! Absolutely ridiculous! <snip -LisaKay aa #2054

Response:

["Followup-To:" nach alt.religion.christian gesetzt.] the person everybody: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Bible was not dictated by god to mortal scribes; it was written and embellished by some 40 authors – claimed prophets, kings, politicians and clergymen in a variety of styles over a 1600 year period. It was written  in Hebrew, Greek (vernacular), Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic and Latin. On stone, wood, clay, goatskin and papyrus. It is an amalgam of history, tales and fiction. It is so abstruse that almost any interpretation that one likes can be claimed. It is a strange mixture of diverse human documents, metaphors, allegories, history and fables and irreconcilable notions. Inspired? The Bible is not even intelligent. It is not even good craftsmanship, but is full of absurdities and contradictions. If this is the word of God, God is in serious need of mental help.

Not _all_ of it are the _words_ of God, we have men, Kings Angels woman Satan etc. etc. speak. The words that God has spoken might fit onto a very small number of pages if not _one_ page. One needs to take into consideration that God send Adam and Eve out of the Garden, and they trough their disobedience to God lost the word of God. The Bible is a textbook of the truth, teaching a small portion of God’s eternal truth. It is also a confession-book (at least the OT) as it describes how sinful humans (Israelites) behaved. If the Jesus story is true, why did Jesus only communicate with a miniscule portion of the worlds population for only a relatively few years?

Well back then He could not use the tools that we have today, TV, telephones, Internet, high-speed trains airplanes to carry his message into all corners of the Globe. Seriously he could not teach longer as he was (and is so today by the vast majority of Jews) not accepted as the _promised_ Messiah. Because of this rejection by his own people (he came into his own but was not received) they used his claim to be the Messiah to accuse him in the roman court as a rebel and the Romans then punished him with the death penalty. If man, who God supposedly created, can communicate clearly via radio, TV and telephone to almost the entire world, why can’t God communicate his demands and wishes clearly and directly by an equally efficient manner to the entire world? Why communicate with a document like the Bible produced by errant men that is obtuse and contradictory?  There is NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that the Bible is the word of God. Why should we believe it? And why didn’t God communicate with mankind 150,000 years ago when man first walked the earth instead of letting man go without guidance for 150,000 years?

We don’t have any evidence that God did not try to reach them.  My guess is that God used the evolution to create the best physical body for his children, and when that stage was achieved God spoke to a pair of humans for the first time, i.e. he then spoke to Adam and Eve.  But through the sin of Adam and Eve we lost God’s word. We were cut of from the knowledge of God. If all men go to a heaven or hell for eternity why does God not let them communicate with their children and friends to assure them that God, heaven and hell actually do exist? Why keep this a secret?

I rather see this as a result of the loss trough Adam and Eve’s disobedience to God’s word. Mankind as a whole lost the ability to communicate with the "departed" ones. And honestly, if someone comes up to you and claims that he has seen his great-grand-pa in the afterlife, would you accepts this testimony, or brush it aside as the ramblings of a lunatic? Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. A few sites: http://www.georgedazell.com searching google.com with the words messages from spirit world http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=messages+from+the+spirit+world&s… The following words are very common and were not included in your search: from the. [details] Web         Results 1 – 10 of about 1,190,000 for messages from the spirit world. (0.84 seconds) Festival of the Dead – Messages from the Spirit World Messages From the Spirit World: Salem’s Only Authentic Seance offers the powerful gift of old world mediumship. A true seance is … www.festivalofthedead.com/spiritworld.html – 18k – Cached – Similar pages     Messages from the Spirit World: The Seance 2004     Messages from the Spirit World: The Seance 2004. …     www.festivalofthedead.com/photos/messages2003/ – 5k – Cached – Similar pages     [ More results from www.festivalofthedead.com ] The Spiritist Society of Florida Special messages … practice of the Spiritist Doctrine as codified by Allan Kardec. The Spiritist Society of Florida, Messages from the Spirit World. … www.ssfl.faresinsights.com/ messages_from_the_spirit_world.htm – 23k – Cached – Similar pages Messages from Spirit World index page www.messagesfromspiritworld.info/ – 1k – Cached – Similar pages Messages of Peace from 36 Former American Presidents in Spirit …  God is the Parent of Humanity. Messages from the Spirit World Integrated Report on Seminars in the Spirit World: World Political Leaders (Former US Presidents). … www.unification.net/leesanghun/leesanghun20030828.html – 84k – Cached – Similar pages The Spirit World Guided Rutherford … considered the most important books in the world because without … but to the whole series of messages of truth … receive new light through the "holy spirit" force …  www.premier1.net/~raines/guided.html – 39k – Cached – Similar pages Spiritualism and insights into the spirit world … abstain from communicating or just throw in some short greetings and messages. … in life, so the grandmother’s spirit was burdened in the spirit world and was …  www.jenseits-de.com/e/eeinblick.htm – 17k – Cached – Similar pages PSYCHIC READINGS through Spirit Guidance … their spiritual paths when needed, providing answers to their questions through spirit guidance, which includes messages from the spirit world (channeling and … hometown.aol.com/messagezbeyond/ – 36k – Cached – Similar pages John Lennon in the Spirit World – Mersey Beat … This is similar to messages about a White Brotherhood of the spirit world which John allegedly discussed with another Medium. Deer … www.triumphpc.com/mersey-beat/ beatles/spirit-world.shtml – 23k – Cached – Similar pages u201cMessages from Spiritu201d … by messages from spirit on Friday, February 21, 2003. At 7:30 to 9:30 pm – $15.00 per person. Come and find out how communicating with the "Spirit World" will … www.shamanicbreathwork.com/Hicks-Campbell.htm – 5k – Cached – Similar pages So I don’t think that God is hiding the other world from us, rather it is that we choose to ignore the messages we get from there. :-/ Also there seems to be some _danger_ (assuming of course this is true) trying to communicate with the other world, as it can lead to possessions. http://www.spiritualcuriosity.com/curiosity/spirit_possession.htm Spirit possession is widely misunderstood.  Possession usually happens gradually and in stages.   How does a person get possessed? The more spiritual sensitivity you have the more open you are to possession.  Risk activities involve , Burn Charming, Pendulum Diagnosis, Yin-Yang, Ghosts, Trance Diagnosis, Birth Stones, Metaphysical Healing, drugs. This whole Jesus/Bible scenario is pure fable written by errant men – NOT the words of any God.

written down and retold with errors YES, also with a certain audience and purpose in mind, again YES, the Gospel of John for example is regarded as _propaganda_ book written for the early Christians. Werner Kurator — "It was a miracle when Jesus rose from the dead and managed to get the tombstone off the entrance.

Response:

[....]                 by Scott Ashley http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn39/biblemythhistory.htm (snipped the rest) Hey, Jim.

and a warm friendly Christian hello to you Brother How’s it going?

things and stuff in my life are going GREAT! Lord Jesus has restored to me a friend that I lost due to my own poor behavior.  this ordeal spanned 12 years and caused lots of prayer from me.  then I realized as Jesus was telling me I’d have to wait because He, Lord Jesus was fixing the broken so things would be restored to the whole.   to make a long story short, a friend of over 25 years has heard the Word of God Himself and with that the friend was returned to me.   the friendship is stronger now as a result of the BOTH of us doing a lot of learning and growing.  it was only the Loving Hand of Lord Jesus who could have corrected such a mess that I made.  Lord Jesus fixed all and as a result we are now attending church together.  afterward we go to lunch and then spend the afternoon discussing the sermon we heard.  I don’t know how things could be better, but I’m sure Lord Jesus will explain it to me when the time is correct. Jude, I hope things are going well for you also. a happy, Jim

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [....]                 by Scott Ashley http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn39/biblemythhistory.htm (snipped the rest) Hey, Jim. and a warm friendly Christian hello to you Brother How’s it going? things and stuff in my life are going GREAT! Lord Jesus has restored to me a friend that I lost due to my own poor behavior.  this ordeal spanned 12 years and caused lots of prayer from me.  then I realized as Jesus was telling me I’d have to wait because He, Lord Jesus was fixing the broken so things would be restored to the whole.   to make a long story short, a friend of over 25 years has heard the Word of God Himself and with that the friend was returned to me.   the friendship is stronger now as a result of the BOTH of us doing a lot of learning and growing.  it was only the Loving Hand of Lord Jesus who could have corrected such a mess that I made.  Lord Jesus fixed all and as a result we are now attending church together.  afterward we go to lunch and then spend the afternoon discussing the sermon we heard.  I don’t know how things could be better, but I’m sure Lord Jesus will explain it to me when the time is correct.

WOW, Jim, THAT is wonderful….. 25 year friendship restored!  I’m so glad for you and him. Jude, I hope things are going well for you also.

Well….. lol…. my wife is in Pennsylvania now for abut 2 weeks….. only 29 more weeks to go…. I’m NOT a happy camper BUT I know I’ll make it through.  Don’t we always? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – a happy, Jim

Response:

The Bible: Myth or History Many people will tell you that the Bible is only a collection of fables, but they’re not telling you the whole story. Can you believe the Bible? The implications are enormous.                 by Scott Ashley http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn39/biblemythhistory.htm

(snipped the rest) Hey, Jim. How’s it going? Jude

Response:

The Bible: Myth or History Many people will tell you that the Bible is only a collection of fables, but they’re not telling you the whole story. Can you believe the Bible? The implications are enormous.                 by Scott Ashley http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn39/biblemythhistory.htm . . .                 When it comes to open-mindedness to biblical teaching, the book of                 Acts commends the Bereans, who "received the word with all                 readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether                 these things were so" (Acts 17:10-11, emphasis added throughout).                 Paul urged the Thessalonians to "test all things; hold fast what is                 good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21). God wants us to be sure of our beliefs,                 that they are rooted and grounded in His Word!                 We shouldn’t be surprised, though, that so few are willing to put the                 Bible to the test by putting it into practice. Jesus Himself prophesied                 that, just before His return, people would have the same mind-set                 that characterized Noah’s day. They would be "eating and drinking,                 marrying and giving in marriage"

Question:

California. Rain. Prophecy. Daniel Urtiz Constantine Catholics, unite against the police.

Response:

Happy Days. Alarmism. Safety. Daniel Urtiz Constantine Catholics, unite against the police.

Response:

Magic. Smart. Earth. Daniel Urtiz Constantine Catholics, unite against the police.

Response:

Devil. Gaia. Woman. Daniel Urtiz Constantine Catholics, unite against the police.

Response:

Disco. Poem. Shake. Daniel Urtiz Constantine Catholics, unite against the police.

Response:

Blush. Weird. Laugh. Daniel Urtiz Constantine Catholics, unite against the police.

Response:

Will they do it again, if given the chance?

Response:

Beware the power of the Devil. That’s what the black man said, who has been in there roughly 10 years. He might have been hungry, so I slept very little. Both of us were acting strangely, which is normal in a place like that.

Response:

Miami. Delray Beach. Boca Raton.

Response:

Father Bell, How have you been feeling? I pray your weather is as beautiful as ours is. Urge. Daniel Urtiz

Response:

Mall. First encounter. Attempt and interest. Mutual vibe. A gist. Something not verbal.

Response:

Social barrier, social border.

Response:

The vote can be modified with a gun.

Response:

Big Springs State Hospital. Unfinished task. Cliche. Serious.

Response:

Texas.

Response:

Silent. To her it already has. Santa Maria, California.

Response:

When I move away from my mother’s home, I don’t plan to buy a microwave oven.

Response:

God created man. Jesus Christ was the Son of God. St. Peter was the first Roman Catholic Pontiff. Spiritual warfare. What if I am wrong?

Response:

Ponce de Leon. I don’t believe every history fact I read because most of them come from white people.

Response:

Question:

I think that it was because the gun shop was closed for passover

Response:

The record is compelling. First-century witnesses make it clear that Jesus had a leading role in His own death. In a 19th-century edition of The Freethinker magazine, G. W. Foote wrote,