Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

Take careful note of what this man is saying, Sabina. He speaks the unvarnished truth in his above statements. As a former Christian myself, I can tell you that I agree with Tom 100%! So no one was ever inspired by God? I think you should call yourself a former church goer not a former Christian. God doesn’t *do* anything…God just is!

What do you mean by this? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -And, no Sabina, I was a sincere, Bible believing Christian for over 22 years. Shalom, Bill What is it that you and Tom wish to achieve in this newsgroup. ? You know I was replying to you about Jesus being the Son of God (or not according to you), not whether the bible is literally true. I can’t speak for Tom, but I hope to create an awareness of the truth about Christianity and religion in general here. The traditional Christian faith that you espouse is dying very rapidly, Sabina. I suggest that you read the book, "A New Christianity for a New World", by Bishop John Shelby Spong to find out why.

I will if it is published here in Britain Shalom, Bill

best wishes – are you sorry Don Suiter is no longer writing on here? — Sabina

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few: "Out of Egypt I called my son" This was not a prophecy of the coming of Christ and if you read the text in context you will see this. This is a reference to the children of Israel leaving Egypt. Originally according to the bible God’s plan was for the children of Israel, only they rejected Jesus when He came. Did you read the verse from which this came? Of course you didn’t or you summarily dismissed it. The "prophecy" is from Hosea 11: 1. The first verse says "When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." The writer of Hosea even specifies that he is referring to Israel. No way that this is a prophecy unless you are abandoning all reason and logic. "But you Bethlehem, in the land of Judah……for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel" This is from Micah and has nothing to do with a geographical place and everything to do with a group of people: "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity." That is your understanding. No Sabina that isn’t my understanding, that is what the verse says! You can read for yourself, can’t you? "He will be called a Nazarene" This is written in Matthew 2:23. In my reference book it says the prophet who said this is not known. So perhaps it was a bad example however: Yes, it is unknown because it was just more of Matthew’s myth making. try: Isaiah 43 -45 Try it for what??? There are three verses here. Can you be a bit more specific? Isaiah 51 – 53 Same here as above, except there are only two verses. Isaiah 55:3 This is a prophecy??? Have you forgotten what the subject is? Isaiah 42:1-4 ( just go to a performance of Handel’s Messiah this Christmas I see no prophecy here. or Jeremiah 33:14 -16 I see no prophecy fulfilled here. Just what prophecy do you think was fulfilled? This isn’t specific enough to be called a prophecy, even if this passage weren’t suspect. Zechariah 9:9 ("your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey") Sorry Sabina, this isn’t what it says. It says, "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." It says he is riding on an ass AND upon a colt, the foal of an ass. So how does he mange to ride both of these animals at the same time? That assumes that Jesus is the king being referenced in this passage and once more there is absolutely no reason to think this is a prediction of Jesus. Psalm 89:3 4 Yes, absolutely no reason whatsoever to connect this with Jesus. Sabina, you can’t even connect David to Jesus much less show that this applies to Jesus. Psalm 89: 36 Again, nothing more that the writings of the psalmist. also Psalm 2: which predicts the rejection of God’s "anointed" one. Circular reasoning. Would you kindle show mw where this prophecy is made? In other words, which chapter and verse of the Old Testament contains this prophecy. see above Please try not to cut sentences that belong together. It makes for difficult reading. "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.. the people living in darkness have seen a great light: on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned" And this is a prophecy in exactly what way????? Jesus Christ was and is "A light for the world" So? This isn’t the "light" that is referred to in these verses. Go to Isaiah 9:1, read the verses in question, then tell me just what it is that makes you think that Isaiah is referring to Jesus. Please read it for me and let me know your thoughts. also He spoke of God as father or more often "Abba" which is more like Dad or daddy. So? Don’t Christians even today refer to god as their heavenly father? "Jesus said to him "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no-one comes to the Father, but through Me" That is what is reported that he said. He did glorious, exciting and uncanny things which show the great truth about himself: walking on water; quietening a storm, shining with unearthly light. And which eyewitness reported on this? The writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are unknown. Paule says that he didn’t know Jesus, so how do you know these things are true? You give the answer to your own question. Whether anyone knew the four writers of the gospels is irrelevant. Of course it is relevant! If they didn’t know him everything that you are reading is hearsay. Please tell me the answer to my question that I supposedly gave you. However because of God’s promise, Christ is resurrected in one’s heart today through His Holy Spirit and when that happens men are able to testify to "glorious exciting and uncanny things". Yes, people in mental institutions do this all of the time. And Peter realised that this man was no less than God himself in fleshly form – the Christ the Messiah who had been in at the creation of the universe. Many attributes made here with no evidence at all. Plenty of evidence (if you believe it) after Jesus’ death we are told He appeared first of all to women. Now you know as well as I how women were regarded as inferior beings in those times.  :-) This brings up an interesting point. In Matthew he first appeared to both Mary’s. In Mark and John it was only to Mary Magdalene, In Luke it was Cleopas and another and in 1st Corinthians it was Cephas. As you can see for yourself, the bible itself isn’t too sure of "who saw whom and when" . The divine He showed himself to be the more He spoke about the necessity He faced to suffer and to  die for the remission of sins, in order to heal the broken relationship between God and Man – the fulfilment of God’s plan to save this whole unhappy, crazy world. Hey, if god is omnipotent, omniscient and all that other "jazz" then it is his fault that this world is crazy. The condition of the world today and the proliferation of thousands of religions and sects along with a reading of the bible, especially the Old Testament, should give a clue to all but the most rabid believer that something isn’t right in Denmark. Oh come on you don’t really need me to tell you about Adam and Eve and their choice to obey or disobey God and the choice they made which caused man’s spiritual death and separation from God do you? The bible is all about God constantly trying to bring his people back to him. I know all about Adam and Eve as told in the bible. I know that God placed these people in the Garden of Eden and told them not to eat of the fruits of two trees, one of which was the "tree of knowledge". So tell me Sabina, who are these persons supposed to know the difference between right and wrong when they haven’t been taught. Remember, they only used fig leaves after they ate the fruit, not before then, so they really didn’t know right from wrong. Also, doesn’t the bible say that the sins of the father are not passed to the sons. I think you need to read that. Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us". Assuming that the bible is correct, Jesus was raised from the dead, it doesn’t say anywhere that he raised himself. He also didn’t know the time and place of the second coming and that is a little suspicious if the god Jesus doesn’t know that. The second coming took place when the Holy Spirit filled the disciples who then went out to spread the Good News. That doesn’t at all address my point of Jesus not having the knowledge of God. it is a pretty safe assumption then that Jesus wasn’t god and that god wasn’t on earth.  Look at the effect on his followers who had run away: those wonderful Easter days when they kept meeting Him, eating with Him, touching His hands, seeing His familiar gestures, hearing His familiar voice, changed them utterly. Those stories changed them, but they didn’t meet anyone. Duh? The disciples changed but they didn’t meet

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Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few: "Out of Egypt I called my son" This was not a prophecy of the coming of Christ and if you read the text in context you will see this. This is a reference to the children of Israel leaving Egypt. Originally according to the bible God’s plan was for the children of Israel, only they rejected Jesus when He came. Did you read the verse from which this came? Of course you didn’t or you summarily dismissed it. The "prophecy" is from Hosea 11: 1. The first verse says "When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." The writer of Hosea even specifies that he is referring to Israel. No way that this is a prophecy unless you are abandoning all reason and logic. "But you Bethlehem, in the land of Judah……for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel" This is from Micah and has nothing to do with a geographical place and everything to do with a group of people: "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity." That is your understanding. No Sabina that isn’t my understanding, that is what the verse says! You can read for yourself, can’t you? "He will be called a Nazarene" This is written in Matthew 2:23. In my reference book it says the prophet who said this is not known. So perhaps it was a bad example however: Yes, it is unknown because it was just more of Matthew’s myth making. try: Isaiah 43 -45 Try it for what??? There are three verses here. Can you be a bit more specific? Isaiah 51 – 53 Same here as above, except there are only two verses. Isaiah 55:3 This is a prophecy??? Have you forgotten what the subject is? Isaiah 42:1-4 ( just go to a performance of Handel’s Messiah this Christmas I see no prophecy here. or Jeremiah 33:14 -16 I see no prophecy fulfilled here. Just what prophecy do you think was fulfilled? This isn’t specific enough to be called a prophecy, even if this passage weren’t suspect. Zechariah 9:9 ("your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey") Sorry Sabina, this isn’t what it says. It says, "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." It says he is riding on an ass AND upon a colt, the foal of an ass. So how does he mange to ride both of these animals at the same time? That assumes that Jesus is the king being referenced in this passage and once more there is absolutely no reason to think this is a prediction of Jesus. Psalm 89:3 4 Yes, absolutely no reason whatsoever to connect this with Jesus. Sabina, you can’t even connect David to Jesus much less show that this applies to Jesus. Psalm 89: 36 Again, nothing more that the writings of the psalmist. also Psalm 2: which predicts the rejection of God’s "anointed" one. Circular reasoning. Would you kindle show mw where this prophecy is made? In other words, which chapter and verse of the Old Testament contains this prophecy. see above Please try not to cut sentences that belong together. It makes for difficult reading. "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.. the people living in darkness have seen a great light: on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned" And this is a prophecy in exactly what way????? Jesus Christ was and is "A light for the world" So? This isn’t the "light" that is referred to in these verses. Go to Isaiah 9:1, read the verses in question, then tell me just what it is that makes you think that Isaiah is referring to Jesus. Please read it for me and let me know your thoughts. also He spoke of God as father or more often "Abba" which is more like Dad or daddy. So? Don’t Christians even today refer to god as their heavenly father? "Jesus said to him "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no-one comes to the Father, but through Me" That is what is reported that he said. He did glorious, exciting and uncanny things which show the great truth about himself: walking on water; quietening a storm, shining with unearthly light. And which eyewitness reported on this? The writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are unknown. Paule says that he didn’t know Jesus, so how do you know these things are true? You give the answer to your own question. Whether anyone knew the four writers of the gospels is irrelevant. Of course it is relevant! If they didn’t know him everything that you are reading is hearsay. Please tell me the answer to my question that I supposedly gave you. However because of God’s promise, Christ is resurrected in one’s heart today through His Holy Spirit and when that happens men are able to testify to "glorious exciting and uncanny things". Yes, people in mental institutions do this all of the time. And Peter realised that this man was no less than God himself in fleshly form – the Christ the Messiah who had been in at the creation of the universe. Many attributes made here with no evidence at all. Plenty of evidence (if you believe it) after Jesus’ death we are told He appeared first of all to women. Now you know as well as I how women were regarded as inferior beings in those times.  :-) This brings up an interesting point. In Matthew he first appeared to both Mary’s. In Mark and John it was only to Mary Magdalene, In Luke it was Cleopas and another and in 1st Corinthians it was Cephas. As you can see for yourself, the bible itself isn’t too sure of "who saw whom and when" . The divine He showed himself to be the more He spoke about the necessity He faced to suffer and to  die for the remission of sins, in order to heal the broken relationship between God and Man – the fulfilment of God’s plan to save this whole unhappy, crazy world. Hey, if god is omnipotent, omniscient and all that other "jazz" then it is his fault that this world is crazy. The condition of the world today and the proliferation of thousands of religions and sects along with a reading of the bible, especially the Old Testament, should give a clue to all but the most rabid believer that something isn’t right in Denmark. Oh come on you don’t really need me to tell you about Adam and Eve and their choice to obey or disobey God and the choice they made which caused man’s spiritual death and separation from God do you? The bible is all about God constantly trying to bring his people back to him. I know all about Adam and Eve as told in the bible. I know that God placed these people in the Garden of Eden and told them not to eat of the fruits of two trees, one of which was the "tree of knowledge". So tell me Sabina, who are these persons supposed to know the difference between right and wrong when they haven’t been taught. Remember, they only used fig leaves after they ate the fruit, not before then, so they really didn’t know right from wrong. Also, doesn’t the bible say that the sins of the father are not passed to the sons. I think you need to read that. Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us". Assuming that the bible is correct, Jesus was raised from the dead, it doesn’t say anywhere that he raised himself. He also didn’t know the time and place of the second coming and that is a little suspicious if the god Jesus doesn’t know that. The second coming took place when the Holy Spirit filled the disciples who then went out to spread the Good News. That doesn’t at all address my point of Jesus not having the knowledge of God. it is a pretty safe assumption then that Jesus wasn’t god and that god wasn’t on earth.  Look at the effect on his followers who had run away: those wonderful Easter days when they kept meeting Him, eating with Him, touching His hands, seeing His familiar gestures, hearing His familiar voice, changed them utterly. Those stories changed them, but they didn’t meet anyone. Duh? The disciples changed but they didn’t meet Jesus. Did you know that there were several gods in the times of Jesus who were crucified and went to heaven and returned in some form or fashion? I only know one God. Then you need to study the history of the times in which Jesus was on earth. There are many stories of gods and crucifictions from those times. Whether you know them or not is relevant to the fact that those gods were worshipped during that time. In His name now the

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Response:

True lies. [] — Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale. Vote for Bush.  Why vote for the lesser of two evils? No matter the candidates the superstition industry wins. ‘Jesus’ is a sock-puppet Christians utilize to add ‘authority’ to whatever action they intend on taking.  -Stoney And Duty Imp and Rapscallion

Response:

Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few:

Tom before I continue I addressed Bill with regard to him saying there is nothing in the Bible to state that Jesus is God. I am not addressing the title of the post. If you want my opinion on the Bible it is divine and human. Truth and fact are not the same. Many biblical stories are true though not  historically accurate of factual. They are concerned with proclaiming a message. There is the history of the human family and there is poetry in the Bible. I believe God’s Holy Spirit inspired the writers and His Holy Spirit inspires us today in helping to understand His word. We learn from the OT how God works, most unexpected ways God’s history focuses on those who hold faithful to him regardless of how things turn out. Faith is what He wants, the heroes who emerge are heroes of faith, not strength or wealth. try: Isaiah 43 -45 Try it for what???

Prophecies of a Messiah There are three verses here. Can you be a bit more specific? Isaiah 51 – 53 Same here as above, except there are only two verses. Isaiah 55:3

These are chapters I am talking about not verses. Go to Isaiah 9:1, read the verses in question, then tell me just what it is that makes you think that Isaiah is referring to Jesus. Please read it for me and let me know your thoughts.

I think the whole of the OT serves as a preparation for Jesus, with the characters on its pages contributing a family, an identity, and a race for Jesus to be born into. What did God have in mind with the long convoluted story of the Hebrews?  The answer of the NT is unequivocal: Jesus is what God had in mind. He came to reconcile humanity to God by extending God’s kingdom beyond the boundaries of race to the entire world. Isaiah 9:1  Verse 1 is an introductory note to the poem which captures the celebration and hope following the birth of a new prince to continue the line of David. Three reasons for celebration are given: the yoke of the oppressor has been broken(v4) the gear of battle has been destroyed (v5) and a new crown prince has been born(v6-7). Paule says that he didn’t know Jesus, so how do you know these things are true? You give the answer to your own question. Whether anyone knew the four writers of the gospels is irrelevant. Of course it is relevant! If they didn’t know him everything that you are reading is hearsay. Please tell me the answer to my question that I supposedly gave you.

Because I believe Jesus  "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them" He said on the Sermon on the Mount. He chided devout Jewish detractors, "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. THESE ARE THE SCRIPTURES THAT TESTIFY ABOUT ME (my capitals) yet you refuse to come to me to have life" However because of God’s promise, Christ is resurrected in one’s heart today through His Holy Spirit and when that happens men are able to testify to "glorious exciting and uncanny things". Yes, people in mental institutions do this all of the time.

Have you ever visited a mental institution? So tell me Sabina, who are these persons supposed to know the difference between right and wrong when they haven’t been taught. Remember, they only used fig leaves after they ate the fruit, not before then, so they really didn’t know right from wrong.

Who taught you right and wrong? God is spirit Tom – He breathes His life-giving spirit on people and then waits to see whether those people choose the life He offers. They are people who disobeyed God – They did know what God had told them i.e. not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Also, doesn’t the bible say that the sins of the father are not passed to the sons. I think you need to read that.

Yes I read that and I don’t like it – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us". Assuming that the bible is correct, Jesus was raised from the dead, it doesn’t say anywhere that he raised himself. He also didn’t know the time and place of the second coming and that is a little suspicious if the god Jesus doesn’t know that. The second coming took place when the Holy Spirit filled the disciples who then went out to spread the Good News. That doesn’t at all address my point of Jesus not having the knowledge of God. it is a pretty safe assumption then that Jesus wasn’t god and that god wasn’t on earth.

I would say the opposite in view of the truth. The disciples changed but they didn’t meet Jesus.

I’m not here to argue theology: I have a living faith and therefore a close relationship with God. An alive faith has a salvation, a wholeness to offer our broken and fragmented world. It can bring us justice and equality founded in the love joy and peace of the Spirit that Jesus brought to the people of His day. Those of us who follow Jesus Christ are led by His spirit. This Spirit of Christ means we are vitally alive. It does not mean we live as He lived as a Judean in the first century. I is a matter of discovering Jesus’ attitude and allowing the living Christ to inspire that attitude in us today. "For God is at work in you" said Paul It is God who impels us to become whole people, which is what salvation is. God is the one who generates the new life in us, modelled after the life of Jesus of Nazareth without being a replica of his life. Quite frankly because of Constantine. Without his providing legitimacy to the Christian religion it would not have survived. There were very few "Christians" in this world by the time the last disciple died, so yes, they were failures in "Christianizing" the known world.

I don’t accept this. Not quite. Do a little research outside of the propaganda that your religion feeds you. You will be amazed.

I have enough amazement living the life I have thank you. That is your opinion.

You are wrong. Yes I attend a church, I have a great fellowship there with like minded friends, I love singing I think the words of the hymns are beautiful, I enjoy some preachers and identify with them, others I don’t. I’m often much closer to God in a beauty spot alone than in a building. Yes, and I see that it will never be yours as long as you deny the obvious.

the obvious being what? snipped for space All are words written by man which have no greater meaning then the words that I am writing now.

I’m sorry but I am not for one minute convinced that you are moved by the same spirit that inspired the writers of the OT. best wishes — Sabina

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few: "Out of Egypt I called my son" This was not a prophecy of the coming of Christ and if you read the text in context you will see this. This is a reference to the children of Israel leaving Egypt. Originally according to the bible God’s plan was for the children of Israel, only they rejected Jesus when He came. Did you read the verse from which this came? Of course you didn’t or you summarily dismissed it. The "prophecy" is from Hosea 11: 1. The first verse says "When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." The writer of Hosea even specifies that he is referring to Israel. No way that this is a prophecy unless you are abandoning all reason and logic. "But you Bethlehem, in the land of Judah……for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel" This is from Micah and has nothing to do with a geographical place and everything to do with a group of people: "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity." That is your understanding. No Sabina that isn’t my understanding, that is what the verse says! You can read for yourself, can’t you? "He will be called a Nazarene" This is written in Matthew 2:23. In my reference book it says the prophet who said this is not known. So perhaps it was a bad example however: Yes, it is unknown because it was just more of Matthew’s myth making. try: Isaiah 43 -45 Try it for what??? There are three verses here. Can you be a bit more specific? Isaiah 51 – 53 Same here as above, except there are only two verses. Isaiah 55:3 This is a prophecy??? Have you forgotten what the subject is? Isaiah 42:1-4 ( just go to a performance of Handel’s Messiah this Christmas I see no prophecy here. or Jeremiah 33:14 -16 I see no prophecy fulfilled here. Just what prophecy do you think was fulfilled? This isn’t specific enough to be called a prophecy, even if this passage weren’t suspect. Zechariah 9:9 ("your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey") Sorry Sabina, this isn’t what it says. It says, "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." It says he is riding on an ass AND upon a colt, the foal of an ass. So how does he mange to ride both of these animals at the same time? That assumes that Jesus is the king being referenced in this passage and once more there is absolutely no reason to think this is a prediction of Jesus. Psalm 89:3 4 Yes, absolutely no reason whatsoever to connect this with Jesus. Sabina, you can’t even connect David to Jesus much less show that this applies to Jesus. Psalm 89: 36 Again, nothing more that the writings of the psalmist. also Psalm 2: which predicts the rejection of God’s "anointed" one. Circular reasoning. Would you kindle show mw where this prophecy is made? In other words, which chapter and verse of the Old Testament contains this prophecy. see above Please try not to cut sentences that belong together. It makes for difficult reading. "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.. the people living in darkness have seen a great light: on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned" And this is a prophecy in exactly what way????? Jesus Christ was and is "A light for the world" So? This isn’t the "light" that is referred to in these verses. Go to Isaiah 9:1, read the verses in question, then tell me just what it is that makes you think that Isaiah is referring to Jesus. Please read it for me and let me know your thoughts. also He spoke of God as father or more often "Abba" which is more like Dad or daddy. So? Don’t Christians even today refer to god as their heavenly father? "Jesus said to him "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no-one comes to the Father, but through Me" That is what is reported that he said. He did glorious, exciting and uncanny things which show the great truth about himself: walking on water; quietening a storm, shining with unearthly light. And which eyewitness reported on this? The writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are unknown. Paule says that he didn’t know Jesus, so how do you know these things are true? You give the answer to your own question. Whether anyone knew the four writers of the gospels is irrelevant. Of course it is relevant! If they didn’t know him everything that you are reading is hearsay. Please tell me the answer to my question that I supposedly gave you. However because of God’s promise, Christ is resurrected in one’s heart today through His Holy Spirit and when that happens men are able to testify to "glorious exciting and uncanny things". Yes, people in mental institutions do this all of the time. And Peter realised that this man was no less than God himself in fleshly form – the Christ the Messiah who had been in at the creation of the universe. Many attributes made here with no evidence at all. Plenty of evidence (if you believe it) after Jesus’ death we are told He appeared first of all to women. Now you know as well as I how women were regarded as inferior beings in those times.  :-) This brings up an interesting point. In Matthew he first appeared to both Mary’s. In Mark and John it was only to Mary Magdalene, In Luke it was Cleopas and another and in 1st Corinthians it was Cephas. As you can see for yourself, the bible itself isn’t too sure of "who saw whom and when" . The divine He showed himself to be the more He spoke about the necessity He faced to suffer and to  die for the remission of sins, in order to heal the broken relationship between God and Man – the fulfilment of God’s plan to save this whole unhappy, crazy world. Hey, if god is omnipotent, omniscient and all that other "jazz" then it is his fault that this world is crazy. The condition of the world today and the proliferation of thousands of religions and sects along with a reading of the bible, especially the Old Testament, should give a clue to all but the most rabid believer that something isn’t right in Denmark. Oh come on you don’t really need me to tell you about Adam and Eve and their choice to obey or disobey God and the choice they made which caused man’s spiritual death and separation from God do you? The bible is all about God constantly trying to bring his people back to him. I know all about Adam and Eve as told in the bible. I know that God placed these people in the Garden of Eden and told them not to eat of the fruits of two trees, one of which was the "tree of knowledge". So tell me Sabina, who are these persons supposed to know the difference between right and wrong when they haven’t been taught. Remember, they only used fig leaves after they ate the fruit, not before then, so they really didn’t know right from wrong. Also, doesn’t the bible say that the sins of the father are not passed to the sons. I think you need to read that. Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us". Assuming that the bible is correct, Jesus was raised from the dead, it doesn’t say anywhere that he raised himself. He also didn’t know the time and place of the second coming and that is a little suspicious if the god Jesus doesn’t know that. The second coming took place when the Holy Spirit filled the disciples who then went out to spread the Good News. That doesn’t at all address my point of Jesus not having the knowledge of God. it is a pretty safe assumption then that Jesus wasn’t god and that god wasn’t on earth.  Look at the effect on his followers who had run away: those wonderful Easter days when they kept meeting Him, eating with Him, touching His hands, seeing His familiar gestures, hearing His familiar voice, changed them utterly. Those stories changed them, but they didn’t meet anyone. Duh? The disciples changed but they didn’t meet Jesus. Did you know that there were several gods in the times of Jesus who were crucified and went to heaven and returned in some form or fashion? I only know one God. Then you need to study the history of the times in which Jesus was on earth. There are many stories of gods and crucifictions from those times. Whether you know them or not is relevant to the fact that those gods were worshipped during that time. In His name now the could and did face martyrdom if it came: nothing was too hard for them and they set about joyfully Christianising the known world. At which, by the way, they were abject failures How come we are discussing it 2000 years later if they were so bad? Quite frankly because of Constantine. Without his providing legitimacy

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Response:

Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few: "Out of Egypt I called my son" This was not a prophecy of the coming of Christ and if you read the text in context you will see this. This is a reference to the children of Israel leaving Egypt. Originally according to the bible God’s plan was for the children of Israel, only they rejected Jesus when He came.

Did you read the verse from which this came? Of course you didn’t or you summarily dismissed it. The "prophecy" is from Hosea 11: 1. The first verse says "When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." The writer of Hosea even specifies that he is referring to Israel. No way that this is a prophecy unless you are abandoning all reason and logic. "But you Bethlehem, in the land of Judah……for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel" This is from Micah and has nothing to do with a geographical place and everything to do with a group of people: "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity." That is your understanding.

No Sabina that isn’t my understanding, that is what the verse says! You can read for yourself, can’t you? "He will be called a Nazarene" This is written in Matthew 2:23. In my reference book it says the prophet who said this is not known. So perhaps it was a bad example however:

Yes, it is unknown because it was just more of Matthew’s myth making. try: Isaiah 43 -45

Try it for what??? There are three verses here. Can you be a bit more specific? Isaiah 51 – 53

Same here as above, except there are only two verses. Isaiah 55:3

This is a prophecy??? Have you forgotten what the subject is? Isaiah 42:1-4 ( just go to a performance of Handel’s Messiah this Christmas

I see no prophecy here. or Jeremiah 33:14 -16

I see no prophecy fulfilled here. Just what prophecy do you think was fulfilled? This isn’t specific enough to be called a prophecy, even if this passage weren’t suspect. Zechariah 9:9 ("your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey")

Sorry Sabina, this isn’t what it says. It says, "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." It says he is riding on an ass AND upon a colt, the foal of an ass. So how does he mange to ride both of these animals at the same time? That assumes that Jesus is the king being referenced in this passage and once more there is absolutely no reason to think this is a prediction of Jesus. Psalm 89:3 4

Yes, absolutely no reason whatsoever to connect this with Jesus. Sabina, you can’t even connect David to Jesus much less show that this applies to Jesus. Psalm 89: 36

Again, nothing more that the writings of the psalmist. also Psalm 2: which predicts the rejection of God’s "anointed" one.

Circular reasoning. Would you kindle show mw where this prophecy is made? In other words, which chapter and verse of the Old Testament contains this prophecy. see above

Please try not to cut sentences that belong together. It makes for difficult reading. "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.. the people living in darkness have seen a great light: on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned" And this is a prophecy in exactly what way????? Jesus Christ was and is "A light for the world"

So? This isn’t the "light" that is referred to in these verses. Go to Isaiah 9:1, read the verses in question, then tell me just what it is that makes you think that Isaiah is referring to Jesus. Please read it for me and let me know your thoughts. also He spoke of God as father or more often "Abba" which is more like Dad or daddy. So? Don’t Christians even today refer to god as their heavenly father? "Jesus said to him "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no-one comes to the Father, but through Me"

 That is what is reported that he said. He did glorious, exciting and uncanny things which show the great truth about himself: walking on water; quietening a storm, shining with unearthly light. And which eyewitness reported on this? The writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are unknown. Paule says that he didn’t know Jesus, so how do you know these things are true? You give the answer to your own question. Whether anyone knew the four writers of the gospels is irrelevant.

Of course it is relevant! If they didn’t know him everything that you are reading is hearsay. Please tell me the answer to my question that I supposedly gave you. However because of God’s promise, Christ is resurrected in one’s heart today through His Holy Spirit and when that happens men are able to testify to "glorious exciting and uncanny things".

Yes, people in mental institutions do this all of the time. And Peter realised that this man was no less than God himself in fleshly form – the Christ the Messiah who had been in at the creation of the universe. Many attributes made here with no evidence at all. Plenty of evidence (if you believe it) after Jesus’ death we are told He appeared first of all to women. Now you know as well as I how women were regarded as inferior beings in those times.  :-)

This brings up an interesting point. In Matthew he first appeared to both Mary’s. In Mark and John it was only to Mary Magdalene, In Luke it was Cleopas and another and in 1st Corinthians it was Cephas. As you can see for yourself, the bible itself isn’t too sure of "who saw whom and when" . The divine He showed himself to be the more He spoke about the necessity He faced to suffer and to  die for the remission of sins, in order to heal the broken relationship between God and Man – the fulfilment of God’s plan to save this whole unhappy, crazy world. Hey, if god is omnipotent, omniscient and all that other "jazz" then it is his fault that this world is crazy. The condition of the world today and the proliferation of thousands of religions and sects along with a reading of the bible, especially the Old Testament, should give a clue to all but the most rabid believer that something isn’t right in Denmark. Oh come on you don’t really need me to tell you about Adam and Eve and their choice to obey or disobey God and the choice they made which caused man’s spiritual death and separation from God do you? The bible is all about God constantly trying to bring his people back to him.

I know all about Adam and Eve as told in the bible. I know that God placed these people in the Garden of Eden and told them not to eat of the fruits of two trees, one of which was the "tree of knowledge". So tell me Sabina, who are these persons supposed to know the difference between right and wrong when they haven’t been taught. Remember, they only used fig leaves after they ate the fruit, not before then, so they really didn’t know right from wrong. Also, doesn’t the bible say that the sins of the father are not passed to the sons. I think you need to read that. Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us". Assuming that the bible is correct, Jesus was raised from the dead, it doesn’t say anywhere that he raised himself. He also didn’t know the time and place of the second coming and that is a little suspicious if the god Jesus doesn’t know that. The second coming took place when the Holy Spirit filled the disciples who then went out to spread the Good News.

That doesn’t at all address my point of Jesus not having the knowledge of God. it is a pretty safe assumption then that Jesus wasn’t god and that god wasn’t on earth.  Look at the effect on his followers who had run away: those wonderful Easter days when they kept meeting Him, eating with Him, touching His hands, seeing His familiar gestures, hearing His familiar voice, changed them utterly. Those stories changed them, but they didn’t meet anyone. Duh?

The disciples changed but they didn’t meet Jesus. Did you know that there were several gods in the times of Jesus who were crucified and went to heaven and returned in some form or fashion? I only know one God.

Then you need to study the history of the times in which Jesus was on earth. There are many stories of gods and crucifictions from those times. Whether you know them or not is relevant to the fact that those gods were worshipped during that time. In His name now the could and did face martyrdom if it came: nothing was too hard for them and they set about joyfully Christianising the known world. At which, by the way, they were abject failures How come we are discussing it 2000 years later if they were so bad?

Quite frankly because of Constantine. Without his providing legitimacy to the Christian religion it would not have survived. There were very few "Christians" in this world by the time the last disciple died, so yes, they were failures in "Christianizing" the known world. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nobody would change like this for a lie, a fairy tale or a vague rumour. Then how do you explain Islam, Mormonism, David Koresch, Jim Jones and all of the other religious sects? I suspect some of the above claim Jesus

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Response:

Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few: "Out of Egypt I called my son" This was not a prophecy of the coming of Christ and if you read the text in context you will see this. This is a reference to the children of Israel leaving Egypt.

Originally according to the bible God’s plan was for the children of Israel, only they rejected Jesus when He came. "But you Bethlehem, in the land of Judah……for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel" This is from Micah and has nothing to do with a geographical place and everything to do with a group of people: "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity."

That is your understanding. "He will be called a Nazarene"

This is written in Matthew 2:23. In my reference book it says the prophet who said this is not known. So perhaps it was a bad example however: try: Isaiah 43 -45 Isaiah 51 – 53 Isaiah 55:3 Isaiah 42:1-4 ( just go to a performance of Handel’s Messiah this Christmas or Jeremiah 33:14 -16 Zechariah 9:9 ("your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey") Psalm 89:3 4 Psalm 89: 36 also Psalm 2: which predicts the rejection of God’s "anointed" one. Would you kindle show mw where this prophecy is made? In other words, which chapter and verse of the Old Testament contains this prophecy. see above "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.. the people living in darkness have seen a great light: on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned" And this is a prophecy in exactly what way?????

Jesus Christ was and is "A light for the world" also He spoke of God as father or more often "Abba" which is more like Dad or daddy. So? Don’t Christians even today refer to god as their heavenly father?

"Jesus said to him "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no-one comes to the Father, but through Me" He did glorious, exciting and uncanny things which show the great truth about himself: walking on water; quietening a storm, shining with unearthly light. And which eyewitness reported on this? The writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are unknown. Paule says that he didn’t know Jesus, so how do you know these things are true?

You give the answer to your own question. Whether anyone knew the four writers of the gospels is irrelevant. However because of God’s promise, Christ is resurrected in one’s heart today through His Holy Spirit and when that happens men are able to testify to "glorious exciting and uncanny things". And Peter realised that this man was no less than God himself in fleshly form – the Christ the Messiah who had been in at the creation of the universe. Many attributes made here with no evidence at all.

Plenty of evidence (if you believe it) after Jesus’ death we are told He appeared first of all to women. Now you know as well as I how women were regarded as inferior beings in those times.  :-) The divine He showed himself to be the more He spoke about the necessity He faced to suffer and to  die for the remission of sins, in order to heal the broken relationship between God and Man – the fulfilment of God’s plan to save this whole unhappy, crazy world. Hey, if god is omnipotent, omniscient and all that other "jazz" then it is his fault that this world is crazy. The condition of the world today and the proliferation of thousands of religions and sects along with a reading of the bible, especially the Old Testament, should give a clue to all but the most rabid believer that something isn’t right in Denmark.

Oh come on you don’t really need me to tell you about Adam and Eve and their choice to obey or disobey God and the choice they made which caused man’s spiritual death and separation from God do you? The bible is all about God constantly trying to bring his people back to him. Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us". Assuming that the bible is correct, Jesus was raised from the dead, it doesn’t say anywhere that he raised himself. He also didn’t know the time and place of the second coming and that is a little suspicious if the god Jesus doesn’t know that.

The second coming took place when the Holy Spirit filled the disciples who then went out to spread the Good News.  Look at the effect on his followers who had run away: those wonderful Easter days when they kept meeting Him, eating with Him, touching His hands, seeing His familiar gestures, hearing His familiar voice, changed them utterly. Those stories changed them, but they didn’t meet anyone. Duh? Did you know that there were several gods in the times of Jesus who were crucified and went to heaven and returned in some form or fashion?

I only know one God. In His name now the could and did face martyrdom if it came: nothing was too hard for them and they set about joyfully Christianising the known world. At which, by the way, they were abject failures

How come we are discussing it 2000 years later if they were so bad? Nobody would change like this for a lie, a fairy tale or a vague rumour. Then how do you explain Islam, Mormonism, David Koresch, Jim Jones and all of the other religious sects?

I suspect some of the above claim Jesus cannot be the Son of God, or a true prophet because He said He was coming back in the first century and they believe He did not do so.  Some of the others sought satisfaction in the creature, instead of the Creator – to seek satisfaction in the works of himself which can only be found in God. And they maybe had that "Fatal disease, the love of the world, which is indeed deeply rooted in our nature, "the pride of life" the desire of praise, of the honour that cometh of men" They had seen Him, alive for ever more, and they knew He had overcome not just sin, but death, turning it into the gateway to eternal life. Not quite. Do a little research outside of the propaganda that your religion feeds you. You will be amazed.

That is your opinion. I suggest instead in the words of John Wesley "By repentance and lowliness of heart, the deadly disease of pride is healed; that of self-will by resignation, a meek and thankful submission to the will of God; and for the love of the world in all its branches, the love of God is the sovereign remedy (he is talking about sin). Now this is properly religion, "faith" thus "working by love" working the genuine meek humility, entire deadness to the world, with a loving, thankful acquiescence in, and conformity to, the whole will and word of God". Finally, God (in the bible) keeps His promises in spite of anything man can do. "What if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God of no effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true and everyman a liar!" (Romans 3:3). Man’s rebellion does not postpone or prevent God’s purposes. — Sabina

Response:

Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few: "Out of Egypt I called my son"

This was not a prophecy of the coming of Christ and if you read the text in context you will see this. This is a reference to the children of Israel leaving Egypt. "But you Bethlehem, in the land of Judah……for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel"

This is from Micah and has nothing to do with a geographical place and everything to do with a group of people: "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity." "He will be called a Nazarene"

Would you kindle show mw where this prophecy is made? In other words, which chapter and verse of the Old Testament contains this prophecy. "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.. the people living in darkness have seen a great light: on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned"

And this is a prophecy in exactly what way????? also He spoke of God as father or more often "Abba" which is more like Dad or daddy.

So? Don’t Christians even today refer to god as their heavenly father? He did glorious, exciting and uncanny things which show the great truth about himself: walking on water; quietening a storm, shining with unearthly light.

And which eyewitness reported on this? The writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are unknown. Paule says that he didn’t know Jesus, so how do you know these things are true? And Peter realised that this man was no less than God himself in fleshly form – the Christ the Messiah who had been in at the creation of the universe.

Many attributes made here with no evidence at all. The divine He showed himself to be the more He spoke about the necessity He faced to suffer and to  die for the remission of sins, in order to heal the broken relationship between God and Man – the fulfilment of God’s plan to save this whole unhappy, crazy world.

Hey, if god is omnipotent, omniscient and all that other "jazz" then it is his fault that this world is crazy. The condition of the world today and the proliferation of thousands of religions and sects along with a reading of the bible, especially the Old Testament, should give a clue to all but the most rabid believer that something isn’t right in Denmark. Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us".

Assuming that the bible is correct, Jesus was raised from the dead, it doesn’t say anywhere that he raised himself. He also didn’t know the time and place of the second coming and that is a little suspicious if the god Jesus doesn’t know that.  Look at the effect on his followers who had run away: those wonderful Easter days when they kept meeting Him, eating with Him, touching His hands, seeing His familiar gestures, hearing His familiar voice, changed them utterly.

Those stories changed them, but they didn’t meet anyone. Did you know that there were several gods in the times of Jesus who were crucified and went to heaven and returned in some form or fashion? In His name now the could and did face martyrdom if it came: nothing was too hard for them and they set about joyfully Christianising the known world.

At which, by the way, they were abject failures Nobody would change like this for a lie, a fairy tale or a vague rumour.

Then how do you explain Islam, Mormonism, David Koresch, Jim Jones and all of the other religious sects? They had seen Him, alive for ever more, and they knew He had overcome not just sin, but death, turning it into the gateway to eternal life.

Not quite. Do a little research outside of the propaganda that your religion feeds you. You will be amazed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sabina

Response:

Bill you say there is nothing in the bible to state that Jesus is God but throughout the OT there are prophecies of the coming of Christ: below are just a few: "Out of Egypt I called my son" "But you Bethlehem, in the land of Judah……for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel" "He will be called a Nazarene" "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.. the people living in darkness have seen a great light: on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned" also He spoke of God as father or more often "Abba" which is more like Dad or daddy.   He did glorious, exciting and uncanny things which show the great truth about himself: walking on water; quietening a storm, shining with unearthly light. And Peter realised that this man was no less than God himself in fleshly form – the Christ the Messiah who had been in at the creation of the universe. The divine He showed himself to be the more He spoke about the necessity He faced to suffer and to  die for the remission of sins, in order to heal the broken relationship between God and Man – the fulfilment of God’s plan to save this whole unhappy, crazy world. Finally the resurrection proved that Peter was right, that Jesus was not just a very special man but was "God-with-us".  Look at the effect on his followers who had run away: those wonderful Easter days when they kept meeting Him, eating with Him, touching His hands, seeing His familiar gestures, hearing His familiar voice, changed them utterly. In His name now the could and did face martyrdom if it came: nothing was too hard for them and they set about joyfully Christianising the known world. Nobody would change like this for a lie, a fairy tale or a vague rumour. They had seen Him, alive for ever more, and they knew He had overcome not just sin, but death, turning it into the gateway to eternal life. — Sabina

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ["Followup-To:" nach alt.religion.christian gesetzt.] the person everybody: The Bible was not dictated by god to mortal scribes; it was written and embellished by some 40 authors – claimed prophets, kings, politicians and clergymen in a variety of styles over a 1600 year period. It was written  in Hebrew, Greek (vernacular), Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic and Latin. On stone, wood, clay, goatskin and papyrus. It is an amalgam of history, tales and fiction. It is so abstruse that almost any interpretation that one likes can be claimed. It is a strange mixture of diverse human documents, metaphors, allegories, history and fables and irreconcilable notions. Inspired? The Bible is not even intelligent. It is not even good craftsmanship, but is full of absurdities and contradictions. If this is the word of God, God is in serious need of mental help. Not _all_ of it are the _words_ of God, we have men, Kings Angels woman Satan etc. etc. speak. The words that God has spoken might fit onto a very small number of pages if not _one_ page. One needs to take into consideration that God send Adam and Eve out of the Garden, and they trough their disobedience to God lost the word of God. The Bible is a textbook of the truth, teaching a small portion of God’s eternal truth. It is also a confession-book (at least the OT) as it describes how sinful humans (Israelites) behaved. If the Jesus story is true, why did Jesus only communicate with a miniscule portion of the worlds population for only a relatively few years? Well back then He could not use the tools that we have today, TV, telephones, Internet, high-speed trains airplanes to carry his message into all corners of the Globe.

What, he needed humans to invent them first?! Absolutely ridiculous! <snip -LisaKay aa #2054

Response:

["Followup-To:" nach alt.religion.christian gesetzt.] the person everybody: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Bible was not dictated by god to mortal scribes; it was written and embellished by some 40 authors – claimed prophets, kings, politicians and clergymen in a variety of styles over a 1600 year period. It was written  in Hebrew, Greek (vernacular), Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic and Latin. On stone, wood, clay, goatskin and papyrus. It is an amalgam of history, tales and fiction. It is so abstruse that almost any interpretation that one likes can be claimed. It is a strange mixture of diverse human documents, metaphors, allegories, history and fables and irreconcilable notions. Inspired? The Bible is not even intelligent. It is not even good craftsmanship, but is full of absurdities and contradictions. If this is the word of God, God is in serious need of mental help.

Not _all_ of it are the _words_ of God, we have men, Kings Angels woman Satan etc. etc. speak. The words that God has spoken might fit onto a very small number of pages if not _one_ page. One needs to take into consideration that God send Adam and Eve out of the Garden, and they trough their disobedience to God lost the word of God. The Bible is a textbook of the truth, teaching a small portion of God’s eternal truth. It is also a confession-book (at least the OT) as it describes how sinful humans (Israelites) behaved. If the Jesus story is true, why did Jesus only communicate with a miniscule portion of the worlds population for only a relatively few years?

Well back then He could not use the tools that we have today, TV, telephones, Internet, high-speed trains airplanes to carry his message into all corners of the Globe. Seriously he could not teach longer as he was (and is so today by the vast majority of Jews) not accepted as the _promised_ Messiah. Because of this rejection by his own people (he came into his own but was not received) they used his claim to be the Messiah to accuse him in the roman court as a rebel and the Romans then punished him with the death penalty. If man, who God supposedly created, can communicate clearly via radio, TV and telephone to almost the entire world, why can’t God communicate his demands and wishes clearly and directly by an equally efficient manner to the entire world? Why communicate with a document like the Bible produced by errant men that is obtuse and contradictory?  There is NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that the Bible is the word of God. Why should we believe it? And why didn’t God communicate with mankind 150,000 years ago when man first walked the earth instead of letting man go without guidance for 150,000 years?

We don’t have any evidence that God did not try to reach them.  My guess is that God used the evolution to create the best physical body for his children, and when that stage was achieved God spoke to a pair of humans for the first time, i.e. he then spoke to Adam and Eve.  But through the sin of Adam and Eve we lost God’s word. We were cut of from the knowledge of God. If all men go to a heaven or hell for eternity why does God not let them communicate with their children and friends to assure them that God, heaven and hell actually do exist? Why keep this a secret?

I rather see this as a result of the loss trough Adam and Eve’s disobedience to God’s word. Mankind as a whole lost the ability to communicate with the "departed" ones. And honestly, if someone comes up to you and claims that he has seen his great-grand-pa in the afterlife, would you accepts this testimony, or brush it aside as the ramblings of a lunatic? Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. A few sites: http://www.georgedazell.com searching google.com with the words messages from spirit world http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=messages+from+the+spirit+world&s… The following words are very common and were not included in your search: from the. [details] Web         Results 1 – 10 of about 1,190,000 for messages from the spirit world. (0.84 seconds) Festival of the Dead – Messages from the Spirit World Messages From the Spirit World: Salem’s Only Authentic Seance offers the powerful gift of old world mediumship. A true seance is … www.festivalofthedead.com/spiritworld.html – 18k – Cached – Similar pages     Messages from the Spirit World: The Seance 2004     Messages from the Spirit World: The Seance 2004. …     www.festivalofthedead.com/photos/messages2003/ – 5k – Cached – Similar pages     [ More results from www.festivalofthedead.com ] The Spiritist Society of Florida Special messages … practice of the Spiritist Doctrine as codified by Allan Kardec. The Spiritist Society of Florida, Messages from the Spirit World. … www.ssfl.faresinsights.com/ messages_from_the_spirit_world.htm – 23k – Cached – Similar pages Messages from Spirit World index page www.messagesfromspiritworld.info/ – 1k – Cached – Similar pages Messages of Peace from 36 Former American Presidents in Spirit …  God is the Parent of Humanity. Messages from the Spirit World Integrated Report on Seminars in the Spirit World: World Political Leaders (Former US Presidents). … www.unification.net/leesanghun/leesanghun20030828.html – 84k – Cached – Similar pages The Spirit World Guided Rutherford … considered the most important books in the world because without … but to the whole series of messages of truth … receive new light through the "holy spirit" force …  www.premier1.net/~raines/guided.html – 39k – Cached – Similar pages Spiritualism and insights into the spirit world … abstain from communicating or just throw in some short greetings and messages. … in life, so the grandmother’s spirit was burdened in the spirit world and was …  www.jenseits-de.com/e/eeinblick.htm – 17k – Cached – Similar pages PSYCHIC READINGS through Spirit Guidance … their spiritual paths when needed, providing answers to their questions through spirit guidance, which includes messages from the spirit world (channeling and … hometown.aol.com/messagezbeyond/ – 36k – Cached – Similar pages John Lennon in the Spirit World – Mersey Beat … This is similar to messages about a White Brotherhood of the spirit world which John allegedly discussed with another Medium. Deer … www.triumphpc.com/mersey-beat/ beatles/spirit-world.shtml – 23k – Cached – Similar pages u201cMessages from Spiritu201d … by messages from spirit on Friday, February 21, 2003. At 7:30 to 9:30 pm – $15.00 per person. Come and find out how communicating with the "Spirit World" will … www.shamanicbreathwork.com/Hicks-Campbell.htm – 5k – Cached – Similar pages So I don’t think that God is hiding the other world from us, rather it is that we choose to ignore the messages we get from there. :-/ Also there seems to be some _danger_ (assuming of course this is true) trying to communicate with the other world, as it can lead to possessions. http://www.spiritualcuriosity.com/curiosity/spirit_possession.htm Spirit possession is widely misunderstood.  Possession usually happens gradually and in stages.   How does a person get possessed? The more spiritual sensitivity you have the more open you are to possession.  Risk activities involve , Burn Charming, Pendulum Diagnosis, Yin-Yang, Ghosts, Trance Diagnosis, Birth Stones, Metaphysical Healing, drugs. This whole Jesus/Bible scenario is pure fable written by errant men – NOT the words of any God.

written down and retold with errors YES, also with a certain audience and purpose in mind, again YES, the Gospel of John for example is regarded as _propaganda_ book written for the early Christians. Werner Kurator — "It was a miracle when Jesus rose from the dead and managed to get the tombstone off the entrance.

Response:

[....]                 by Scott Ashley http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn39/biblemythhistory.htm (snipped the rest) Hey, Jim.

and a warm friendly Christian hello to you Brother How’s it going?

things and stuff in my life are going GREAT! Lord Jesus has restored to me a friend that I lost due to my own poor behavior.  this ordeal spanned 12 years and caused lots of prayer from me.  then I realized as Jesus was telling me I’d have to wait because He, Lord Jesus was fixing the broken so things would be restored to the whole.   to make a long story short, a friend of over 25 years has heard the Word of God Himself and with that the friend was returned to me.   the friendship is stronger now as a result of the BOTH of us doing a lot of learning and growing.  it was only the Loving Hand of Lord Jesus who could have corrected such a mess that I made.  Lord Jesus fixed all and as a result we are now attending church together.  afterward we go to lunch and then spend the afternoon discussing the sermon we heard.  I don’t know how things could be better, but I’m sure Lord Jesus will explain it to me when the time is correct. Jude, I hope things are going well for you also. a happy, Jim

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [....]                 by Scott Ashley http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn39/biblemythhistory.htm (snipped the rest) Hey, Jim. and a warm friendly Christian hello to you Brother How’s it going? things and stuff in my life are going GREAT! Lord Jesus has restored to me a friend that I lost due to my own poor behavior.  this ordeal spanned 12 years and caused lots of prayer from me.  then I realized as Jesus was telling me I’d have to wait because He, Lord Jesus was fixing the broken so things would be restored to the whole.   to make a long story short, a friend of over 25 years has heard the Word of God Himself and with that the friend was returned to me.   the friendship is stronger now as a result of the BOTH of us doing a lot of learning and growing.  it was only the Loving Hand of Lord Jesus who could have corrected such a mess that I made.  Lord Jesus fixed all and as a result we are now attending church together.  afterward we go to lunch and then spend the afternoon discussing the sermon we heard.  I don’t know how things could be better, but I’m sure Lord Jesus will explain it to me when the time is correct.

WOW, Jim, THAT is wonderful….. 25 year friendship restored!  I’m so glad for you and him. Jude, I hope things are going well for you also.

Well….. lol…. my wife is in Pennsylvania now for abut 2 weeks….. only 29 more weeks to go…. I’m NOT a happy camper BUT I know I’ll make it through.  Don’t we always? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – a happy, Jim

Response:

The Bible: Myth or History Many people will tell you that the Bible is only a collection of fables, but they’re not telling you the whole story. Can you believe the Bible? The implications are enormous.                 by Scott Ashley http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn39/biblemythhistory.htm

(snipped the rest) Hey, Jim. How’s it going? Jude

Response:

The Bible: Myth or History Many people will tell you that the Bible is only a collection of fables, but they’re not telling you the whole story. Can you believe the Bible? The implications are enormous.                 by Scott Ashley http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn39/biblemythhistory.htm . . .                 When it comes to open-mindedness to biblical teaching, the book of                 Acts commends the Bereans, who "received the word with all                 readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether                 these things were so" (Acts 17:10-11, emphasis added throughout).                 Paul urged the Thessalonians to "test all things; hold fast what is                 good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21). God wants us to be sure of our beliefs,                 that they are rooted and grounded in His Word!                 We shouldn’t be surprised, though, that so few are willing to put the                 Bible to the test by putting it into practice. Jesus Himself prophesied                 that, just before His return, people would have the same mind-set                 that characterized Noah’s day. They would be "eating and drinking,                 marrying and giving in marriage"