Question:
JESUS CHRIST. Lambeth Leper
You aren’t a leper. Lepers are people who have a disease, and have no choice in the matter. YOU, on the other hand, suck cock of your own free will. Stop insulting the lepers. Lepers are entitled to sympathy. Somebody who thinks that being fucked up the ass turns him into a minority is far, far lower on the scale than any honest leper.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [long rant about how the Church isn't just sinful (yet redeemable) against gays, rather, it and thus Christ are utterly worthy of any reasonable person's contempt] [addressed to mycroft, and presumably other gay Christians: ] I do understand why many people identify with their oppressors and allow them to continue to abuse them. It is an unfortunate inborn human response to a lifetime of abuse. Still, I am sorry that you hate yourself so much. JESUSCHRIST, If you really feel that way, then can you please think about leaving this newsgroup?
Because YOU said so? It’s a public group and you don’t decide who stays and goes. I totally understand how wounded you may be, by the Church’s past and present scapegoating of gay people. It *is* evil (fallen, imperfect), and whether gay, straight or whatever, all of us have in some way been misguided or hurt by it. But this newsgroup, virtually by definition, is for those who are staying in the Church and who (while still naming the evil as such, and disputing specific new occurrences of it) are trying to rise above their wounds and their just anger, relying on the Name of Him who died for us. All I’m saying is, maybe you haven’t quite found the right newsgroup. Peace and blessings, Jeff
Personally, I think he couldn’t have found a more perfect ng! The Speedbyrd(tm) : … the usual suspect ICQ# 17433172
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [rant about how the Church isn't merely sinful (yet redeemable) against gays, rather, it and thus Christ are utterly worthy of any reasonable person's contempt] [then addressed to mycroft, and presumably other gay Christians: ] I do understand why many people identify with their oppressors and allow them to continue to abuse them. It is an unfortunate inborn human response to a lifetime of abuse. Still, I am sorry that you hate yourself so much. JESUSCHRIST, If you really think that, then can you please consider whether or not you belong in this newsgroup (a.r.c.e) ? I totally understand how wounded you may be, by the Church’s past and present scapegoating of gay people. It *is* evil (fallen, imperfect); and whether straight, gay or whatever, all of us have in some way been misguided or hurt by it. But the newsgroup a.r.c.e, virtually by definition, is for those who are staying in the Church and who (while still naming the Church’s homophobic evil as such, and disputing specific new occurrences of it) hope to rise above their wounds and their anger, relying instead on the Name of Him who died for us. I have appreciated your contributions here from time to time, but after reading your above, I’m suggesting that possibly you haven’t quite found the right newsgroup. Peace and blessings to you, wherever you may be,
Quit whining, you wimp! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jeff *** To e-mail me, remove both capital Z letters from my address. "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that everyone who has faith in him may not perish but have eternal life. It was not to judge the world…No one who puts faith in him comes under judgment…" – John 3:16-18 REB. A promise for all – including our gay people. We break our Baptismal Covenant (see US BCP p.305) whenever we try to negate the morality, equality or existence of their unions. "[Even anti-gay St.] Chrysostrom notes that in derogating homosexual behavior among the pagans, St. Paul did not describe [gay] people who ‘had fallen in love and were drawn toward each other by passion’ but only [general] people who ‘burned in their lust…’." – Boswell, -Christianity, Social Tolerance & Homosexuality-, p. 117
Response:
[rant about how the Church isn't merely sinful (yet redeemable) against gays, rather, it and thus Christ are utterly worthy of any reasonable person's contempt] [then addressed to mycroft, and presumably other gay Christians: ] I do understand why many people identify with their oppressors and allow them to continue to abuse them. It is an unfortunate inborn human response to a lifetime of abuse. Still, I am sorry that you hate yourself so much.
JESUSCHRIST, If you really think that, then can you please consider whether or not you belong in this newsgroup (a.r.c.e) ? I totally understand how wounded you may be, by the Church’s past and present scapegoating of gay people. It *is* evil (fallen, imperfect); and whether straight, gay or whatever, all of us have in some way been misguided or hurt by it. But the newsgroup a.r.c.e, virtually by definition, is for those who are staying in the Church and who (while still naming the Church’s homophobic evil as such, and disputing specific new occurrences of it) hope to rise above their wounds and their anger, relying instead on the Name of Him who died for us. I have appreciated your contributions here from time to time, but after reading your above, I’m suggesting that possibly you haven’t quite found the right newsgroup. Peace and blessings to you, wherever you may be, Jeff *** To e-mail me, remove both capital Z letters from my address. "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that everyone who has faith in him may not perish but have eternal life. It was not to judge the world…No one who puts faith in him comes under judgment…" — John 3:16-18 REB. A promise for all – including our gay people. We break our Baptismal Covenant (see US BCP p.305) whenever we try to negate the morality, equality or existence of their unions. "[Even anti-gay St.] Chrysostrom notes that in derogating homosexual behavior among the pagans, St. Paul did not describe [gay] people who ‘had fallen in love and were drawn toward each other by passion’ but only [general] people who ‘burned in their lust…’." — Boswell, -Christianity, Social Tolerance & Homosexuality-, p. 117
Response:
says… THIS NEWSGROUP IS ALT.POLITICS.HOMOSEXUALITY. Why wasted energy arguing with these Bible bigots. This is NOT politics – it is nonsense. Gay people should band together to make political chanhes. For example, the nomination of James C. Hormel that is stalled by Lott and Gingrich. Please ignore these bible
You have the name of one of the two newsgroups where this thread appears, all right. Now YOU need to understand APH’s chartered purpose. APH was created by Roger B.A. Klorese to catch gay bashers and move them out of authentically gay group. That is why I cross posted my reply here. Why should bigots be able to go on fermenting their particular brand of toxin in private? Exposing it to the light of day and refuting it before the poison it can be distilled and poured on us in secret. Fell fre tp reply. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mycroft, says… Thanks for your usual patronizing attitude. You claim not to have any "hurt feelings" and yet you can’t help taking your usual digs at those of us who dare contradict you. All done in a "dignified" manner, of course. Frankly, I don’t care what you think. You have no power over me. Your use of traditional attitudes to exclude gay people only hurts *your* cause. I would remind you that the traditional attitude towards women in Christianity is that you are second-class citizens in the Kingdom and should be subserviant to men (you should see the vociferous anti-female attitudes in our conservative denominations here in America!). It’s because of people like you that so many gay people spurn Christianity. I have several friends who can’t understand my devotion to Christ. They consider Christianity a "hate" ideology (after reading your posts I can understand why). But xtianity transcends being a mere hate cult. With pious pretense it literalist followers preach love, but with their actions and myths defile the spirit. They interpret ancient creation myths to convince children they are born evil. They worship a father god who raped a virgin then required the murder of his son to save humanity. All of this he supposedly did because he loved them, at least according to the church’s myths. Any discussion about how this deification of domestic violence and child abuse contradict any rational notion of love is considered offensive, even heresy, by dumb-as-mud true believers. Now that the world wide Anglican community has dropped reason and experience and adopted the fundamentalist notion of scriptural authority, the source of all the above rubbish, what is left besides the fear, hate and pious pretense? Smart people have already left and are leaving…soon all that will be left will be lame apologists and folks like the ignorant, opinionated Kathleen Kinders celebrating their ritual cannibalism of wine and bread as blood and flesh, with heterosexual-white-male-only priests somewhere in the deep South or the north of England and homophobic female genital mutilating polygamous exorcists in Nigeria. …and their willing victims, scapegoats willing to subject themselves to the bigoted nonsense. You can continue devote yourself to the mythical boy-on-a-stick god worshipped by these zealots, and continue to allow fringe lunatic fundamentalist to play their power trip on you, but I won’t. I do understand why many people identify with their oppressors and allow them to continue to abuse them. It is an unfortunate inborn human response to a lifetime of abuse. Still, I am sorry that you hate yourself so much. Any message Jesus of Nazereth left with us has been adulterated by these abusive lunatics. He would puke at he things done in his name, if he were still alive. JESUS CHRIST. Lambeth Leper ECUSA Alum, Class of ‘98 Mycroft PS–Have you really studied all of Thomas Merton’s writings? Your posts certainly don’t reflect his spirit. After reading her windy posts, do you really imagine Kathleen Kinder has ever actually studied anything? Studying imples thought and understanding. Kathleen Kinder simply parrots whatever she clips that supports her prejudices, hateful notions she has conveniently labeled as mainstream, with not so much as a thought added.
Response:
THIS NEWSGROUP IS ALT.POLITICS.HOMOSEXUALITY. Why wasted energy arguing with these Bible bigots. This is NOT politics – it is nonsense. Gay people should band together to make political chanhes. For example, the nomination of James C. Hormel that is stalled by Lott and Gingrich. Please ignore these bible thumpers – they do not promote our cause. Tom
Aloha Tom — It is true that there should be no relevance in the matter and that the various degrees of irrational religiosity have no place on alt.POLITICS.homosexuality it is also true that these hate-mongers use scripture as the justification for their xenophobia and foulness. Just as bible was used to justify slavery and the century of American Apartheid that followed it they are using the message of "Christian love" to justify hatred. ward The 1964 Civil Rights Act is "the single most dangerous piece of legislation ever introduced in the Congress" He later opposed a national holiday for that "pervert" Martin Luther King Jr. Who but? Jesse Helms
Response:
: Friends – I have no intention of breaking my vow of silence regarding : entering into further unhelpful exchanges with certain people who may have : broken theirs with regard to me. There are no hard feelings on my part! : Preaching to the choir, then. : There is a way of putting some of those Bible images into context, : which mainstream Christianity claims show clearly the teaching : of the Bible regarding homosexual practice. … So the Christian message to homosexuals is reduced to a single command, "Don’t ’sodomize’ one another." After the first quarter century I can consider that command mastered. What then? How is a gay person supposed to conduct himself? Does he pretend to be happy in his Church as he hears yearly sermons on Sodom and Gomorrah directed toward gay people? Pretend to agree when one boor after another rambles on about the necessity of protecting his children from gay people? Pretend to love an opposite sex spouse as some demand? Pretend not to regret betraying her possibility for genuine eros and agape? Pretend not to love the one that he loves ever so much more than himself? Pretend not to mourn them when he leaves or dies? Pretend not to be? After the years or decades of pretending we grow weary of pretending. At last we acknowledge who and what we are. We cease to be abstractions and become human beings. We discover all that we have in common with other human beings. We find ourselves born once again into the human family. We expect to live and to love as other human beings, in truth and in deed. It is our birth right. : : I have to remind myself constantly that there is real agonisng : underlying this topic or else any sympathy I have would quickly evaporate. There is passion, but no longer any agony for ourselves. There is only the pain we feel for those still pretending. : I’m grateful, but I’m as tough as old boots so no need to worry on my : account! Most of us have been combatants in this war from quite an early age. I think you’ll find most of us quite tough, too. We would not have survived without this strength. Frank
Response:
THIS NEWSGROUP IS ALT.POLITICS.HOMOSEXUALITY. Why wasted energy arguing with these Bible bigots. This is NOT politics – it is nonsense. Gay people should band together to make political chanhes. For example, the nomination of James C. Hormel that is stalled by Lott and Gingrich. Please ignore these bible
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Mycroft, says… Thanks for your usual patronizing attitude. You claim not to have any "hurt feelings" and yet you can’t help taking your usual digs at those of us who dare contradict you. All done in a "dignified" manner, of course. Frankly, I don’t care what you think. You have no power over me. Your use of traditional attitudes to exclude gay people only hurts *your* cause. I would remind you that the traditional attitude towards women in Christianity is that you are second-class citizens in the Kingdom and should be subserviant to men (you should see the vociferous anti-female attitudes in our conservative denominations here in America!). It’s because of people like you that so many gay people spurn Christianity. I have several friends who can’t understand my devotion to Christ. They consider Christianity a "hate" ideology (after reading your posts I can understand why). But xtianity transcends being a mere hate cult. With pious pretense it literalist followers preach love, but with their actions and myths defile the spirit. They interpret ancient creation myths to convince children they are born evil. They worship a father god who raped a virgin then required the murder of his son to save humanity. All of this he supposedly did because he loved them, at least according to the church’s myths. Any discussion about how this deification of domestic violence and child abuse contradict any rational notion of love is considered offensive, even heresy, by dumb-as-mud true believers. Now that the world wide Anglican community has dropped reason and experience and adopted the fundamentalist notion of scriptural authority, the source of all the above rubbish, what is left besides the fear, hate and pious pretense? Smart people have already left and are leaving…soon all that will be left will be lame apologists and folks like the ignorant, opinionated Kathleen Kinders celebrating their ritual cannibalism of wine and bread as blood and flesh, with heterosexual-white-male-only priests somewhere in the deep South or the north of England and homophobic female genital mutilating polygamous exorcists in Nigeria. …and their willing victims, scapegoats willing to subject themselves to the bigoted nonsense. You can continue devote yourself to the mythical boy-on-a-stick god worshipped by these zealots, and continue to allow fringe lunatic fundamentalist to play their power trip on you, but I won’t. I do understand why many people identify with their oppressors and allow them to continue to abuse them. It is an unfortunate inborn human response to a lifetime of abuse. Still, I am sorry that you hate yourself so much. Any message Jesus of Nazereth left with us has been adulterated by these abusive lunatics. He would puke at he things done in his name, if he were still alive. JESUS CHRIST. Lambeth Leper ECUSA Alum, Class of ‘98 Mycroft PS–Have you really studied all of Thomas Merton’s writings? Your posts certainly don’t reflect his spirit. After reading her windy posts, do you really imagine Kathleen Kinder has ever actually studied anything? Studying imples thought and understanding. Kathleen Kinder simply parrots whatever she clips that supports her prejudices, hateful notions she has conveniently labeled as mainstream, with not so much as a thought added.
Response:
Mycroft, says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks for your usual patronizing attitude. You claim not to have any "hurt feelings" and yet you can’t help taking your usual digs at those of us who dare contradict you. All done in a "dignified" manner, of course. Frankly, I don’t care what you think. You have no power over me. Your use of traditional attitudes to exclude gay people only hurts *your* cause. I would remind you that the traditional attitude towards women in Christianity is that you are second-class citizens in the Kingdom and should be subserviant to men (you should see the vociferous anti-female attitudes in our conservative denominations here in America!). It’s because of people like you that so many gay people spurn Christianity. I have several friends who can’t understand my devotion to Christ. They consider Christianity a "hate" ideology (after reading your posts I can understand why).
But xtianity transcends being a mere hate cult. With pious pretense it literalist followers preach love, but with their actions and myths defile the spirit. They interpret ancient creation myths to convince children they are born evil. They worship a father god who raped a virgin then required the murder of his son to save humanity. All of this he supposedly did because he loved them, at least according to the church’s myths. Any discussion about how this deification of domestic violence and child abuse contradict any rational notion of love is considered offensive, even heresy, by dumb-as-mud true believers. Now that the world wide Anglican community has dropped reason and experience and adopted the fundamentalist notion of scriptural authority, the source of all the above rubbish, what is left besides the fear, hate and pious pretense? Smart people have already left and are leaving…soon all that will be left will be lame apologists and folks like the ignorant, opinionated Kathleen Kinders celebrating their ritual cannibalism of wine and bread as blood and flesh, with heterosexual-white-male-only priests somewhere in the deep South or the north of England and homophobic female genital mutilating polygamous exorcists in Nigeria. …and their willing victims, scapegoats willing to subject themselves to the bigoted nonsense. You can continue devote yourself to the mythical boy-on-a-stick god worshipped by these zealots, and continue to allow fringe lunatic fundamentalist to play their power trip on you, but I won’t. I do understand why many people identify with their oppressors and allow them to continue to abuse them. It is an unfortunate inborn human response to a lifetime of abuse. Still, I am sorry that you hate yourself so much. Any message Jesus of Nazereth left with us has been adulterated by these abusive lunatics. He would puke at he things done in his name, if he were still alive. JESUS CHRIST. Lambeth Leper ECUSA Alum, Class of ‘98 Mycroft PS–Have you really studied all of Thomas Merton’s writings? Your posts certainly don’t reflect his spirit.
After reading her windy posts, do you really imagine Kathleen Kinder has ever actually studied anything? Studying imples thought and understanding. Kathleen Kinder simply parrots whatever she clips that supports her prejudices, hateful notions she has conveniently labeled as mainstream, with not so much as a thought added.
Response:
[to Kathleen Kinder's usual erroneous stuff] Frankly, I don’t care what you think. You have no power over me. Your use of traditional attitudes to exclude gay people only hurts *your* cause.
Sadly, mycroft, this sentence is untrue. It hurts Christ’s cause (insofar as it does violence to people in the Body, as well as driving some others to despair and/or away from the Body), which is why we (as Christians) both feel some duty to contest it. It’s because of people like you that so many gay people spurn Christianity. I have several friends who can’t understand my devotion to Christ. They consider Christianity a "hate" ideology (after reading your posts I can understand why).
My point exactly. Yours in Christ, Jeff *** To e-mail me, remove both capital Z letters from my address. "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that everyone who has faith in him may not perish but have eternal life. It was not to judge the world…No one who puts faith in him comes under judgment…" — John 3:16-18 REB. A promise for all – including our gay people. We break our Baptismal Covenant (see US BCP p.305) whenever we try to negate the morality, equality or existence of their unions. "[Even anti-gay St.] Chrysostrom notes that in derogating homosexual behavior among the pagans, St. Paul did not describe [gay] people who ‘had fallen in love and were drawn toward each other by passion’ but only [general] people who ‘burned in their lust…’." — Boswell, -Christianity, Social Tolerance & Homosexuality-, p. 117
Response:
Thanks for your usual patronizing attitude. You claim not to have any "hurt feelings" and yet you can’t help taking your usual digs at those of us who dare contradict you. All done in a "dignified" manner, of course. Frankly, I don’t care what you think. You have no power over me. Your use of traditional attitudes to exclude gay people only hurts *your* cause. I would remind you that the traditional attitude towards women in Christianity is that you are second-class citizens in the Kingdom and should be subserviant to men (you should see the vociferous anti-female attitudes in our conservative denominations here in America!). It’s because of people like you that so many gay people spurn Christianity. I have several friends who can’t understand my devotion to Christ. They consider Christianity a "hate" ideology (after reading your posts I can understand why). Mycroft PS–Have you really studied all of Thomas Merton’s writings? Your posts certainly don’t reflect his spirit.
Response:
Friends – I have no intention of breaking my vow of silence regarding entering into further unhelpful exchanges with certain people who may have broken theirs with regard to me.
Not sure who that would be. (mycroft?) There is a way of putting some of those Bible images into context, which mainstream Christianity claims show clearly the teaching of the Bible regarding homosexual practice. On Monday, my husband, daughter, daughter-in-law and I had a most interesting and helpful day visiting, along with the rest of the Bank holiday crowd, the ruins of the Cistercian abbey at Jervaulx and Mount Grace Priory… The monks led a life of study, prayer and work, in the case of the Carthusians, in solitary seclusion in their cells. In the life of devotion, they addressed their prayers to the Trinitarian Christian God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit expressed in the mystical imagery of the monogamous family. Their devotion also included the BVM… The BVM is an image of a holy, but earthly mother of the only begotten Son of God, who in His earthly life was celibate.
FYI this is quite a large assumption on your part. The Bible specifies that He was "sinless" – not "celibate". The Bible also tells us that He was fully human, i.e. by extension subject to our extreme hormonal urges and desire to just plain *learn* about our bodies during our teenage years. I don’t wish to go into gory detail, yet there is a psychological and psychospiritual point to be made here. Briefly, while we would certainly expect from the Bible’s silence that He wasn’t married or anything, there is no reason to assume he could not have masturbated sometimes (which, if He did, would be at once a. human, b. basically sinless, and yet c. not "celibate" by the strictest definition of the word, which I am assume you to intend here). Also, as human, He would have been logically subject to involuntary erotic dreams and associated emissions or reflexive motions (which, admittedly, even a strict definition of "celibacy" still allows). There is also a possibility (in the mind of *some* Bible scholars) that He could have had some sort of relationship with erotic aspects to it (again in fundamental love and integrity, which I would then call sinlessness) which the Gospel authors merely chose to erase to a large extent – the leading candidates cited by these minority scholars being Mary Magdelene, followed by John. My point in all this is NOT any salaciousness; but rather, simply to note that as always, Kathleen, you would wish to greatly over-simplify the facts (or possible facts) in order to "shoehorn" them into your own sadly deep-rooted anti-homosexual, and *perhaps* anti-pleasure or anti-body, personal psychology. I think it’s quite possible that He was lifelong celibate in the stricter sense of that word, but fundamentally none of us knows, or should claim to know. Mary brought up her Child in a normal human family with her human husband Joseph.
This statement is plainly meant to make some compelling point, but there isn’t any. The fact that Mary was a woman, and the fact that she had a husband Joseph who was a man, and the fact that they were married, and the fact that such arrangements are indeed "statistically normal" (what the great majority does), is all circumstantial or irrelevant to the fact that God makes *some* gay- and lesbian-headed families, whom we as Christians have a duty to respect and uphold. I have searched and searched through my library of devotional books and lives of the saints of prayer all down the ages. There is no example in any of them of a human being’s relation with God through mystical communion, being expressed in homosexual imagery.
But of course. With extreme (indeed inappropriate) brevity: the historical developments surrounding the Church’s various stances on homosexuality are as follows. After about 13 centuries of vacillation between positive, neutral and negative views from various people, in various times and places, around the 14th century the Church descended into the unbroken, total homophobia that we consider "traditional" (somewhat falsely) today. This homophobia has characteristically been so overwhelming that it has even involved an unplanned, yet ultimately systematic (in the same way that capitalism is unplanned, yet ultimately systematic) re-writing of history to suppress traces of honored gay and lesbian people. "What people don’t know about, or believe does not exist, they can’t understand" seems to be what has gotten implemented. Now, I know it sounds unbelievable at first – we all really want to believe in the total accuracy and benevolence of our schoolbooks – yet it is true nonetheless. Scholars (within the Church and/or without) would even *alter pronouns* without acknowledgement, in presenting to laymen innumerable poems and other writings from Classical, and to a lesser extent Medieval, times. To a great extent this even still goes on today. Your "library of devotional books", Kathleen, is undoubtedly books that were written in, *or translated into* English within the last 7 centuries. The total erasure or absence of traces of gay people would have been determinative in forming your impression/belief that there simply were no major holy gay people. It should surprise no one, then, that in searching back through those same books, you would indeed find no major holy gay people!! Sts. Sergius and Bacchus have been made to stand out, in recent scholarship, as the prime example of widely venerated saints who were without question a same-sex couple (and who were, for several centuries but *not* today, quite calmly known/seen as such). But it won’t surprise me, again, if your devotional books (Kathleen) completely downplay or omit this. The various ups, downs and evidences of this entire "historical process of historical revisionism" are given at least in Dr. John Boswell’s widely-accepted 1980 study, "Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality" (and perhaps by now in other studies – I’m not sure as my own scholarship tends to be lay, uneven and not up-to-the-nanosecond). Extensive discussion and evidence about the former veneration of Sts. Sergius and Bacchus is given in his somewhat more controversial 1996 study, "Same-sex Unions in Pre-modern Europe", along with many fascinating examples and evidences of the "rite of same-sex union" which was popular in Greek Orthodox churches for several centuries (but which of course is totally, indeed *vehemently* hushed up or denied by all our Greek Orthodox today). But of course, even if NONE of the above were true: it still wouldn’t change in the slightest the fact that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit have absolutely nothing against constitutionally gay Christians living out faithful, holy and life- giving personal relationships. This we know from basic reason and direct testimony/experience. The example of female ordination shows that even something **really** against all Tradition and Scripture (such as female ordination) can still be justified or initiated in our times, based solely on Reason (i.e. on general Christian principles of love, equality and brotherhood). There is one example on p.15, no. 49 of The Wisdom of the Desert Fathers by Benedicta Ward SLG, which describes two monks "sleeping" together as sin (4th century
Yet Jesus and John lay at each other’s breasts. I’ve read most carefully St Anselm’s 2 prayers to St John the Evangelist, where St Anselm prays that St John lead him to the quality of love for the Lord which St John had. There is nothing there to suggest the view that Our Lord had a homosexual relationship with John.
"Homo" = same "Sexual" in this word = sex or gender Thus our word "Homo-sexual" which means "same-gender" Sorry, Kathleen, but their mutual love and devotion was indeed quite literally homosexual. What you mean to say instead, I think, is that there is nothing to suggest the view that Our Lord had a **genital** or **sexual** relationship with John. Some have indeed seen in the "lying at the breast", and in John’s almost school-girlish claims "I was the one who Jesus loved", hints otherwise. But I don’t – I agree with you that is probably going farther than the evidence would really support. I would agree with your statement 100% if you just phrased it just a touch less definitively, for example "There is practically nothing to suggest the view that Our Lord had a genital or sexual relationship with John." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Whatever mainstream Christians think of this notion, it is a view which belongs to the realm of spirituality, but one must ask, of what kind and what
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Response:
Friends – I have no intention of breaking my vow of silence regarding entering into further unhelpful exchanges with certain people who may have broken theirs with regard to me. There are no hard feelings on my part! There is a way of putting some of those Bible images into context, which mainstream Christianity claims show clearly the teaching of the Bible regarding homosexual practice. On Monday, my husband, daughter, daughter-in-law and I had a most interesting and helpful day visiting, along with the rest of the Bank holiday crowd, the ruins of the Cistercian abbey at Jervaulx and Mount Grace Priory, the most perfectly preserved of the 10 Carthusian monasteries built in England. As we walked round the sites and looked at the exhibits in the Visitors’ Centres, we talked of the faith of the people who built these places centuries ago. The faith that inspired their devotion was Trinitarian, as indeed, is ours today. The monks led a life of study, prayer and work, in the case of the Carthusians, in solitary seclusion in their cells. In the life of devotion, they addressed their prayers to the Trinitarian Christian God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit expressed in the mystical imagery of the monogamous family. Their devotion also included the BVM. It was Our Lady who in a vision, led a band of wandering monks to the situation at Jervaulx where they built their monastery. The BVM is an image of a holy, but earthly mother of the only begotten Son of God, who in His earthly life was celibate. Mary brought up her Child in a normal human family with her human husband Joseph. I have searched and searched through my library of devotional books and lives of the saints of prayer all down the ages. There is no example in any of them of a human being’s relation with God through mystical communion, being expressed in homosexual imagery. There is one example on p.15, no. 49 of The Wisdom of the Desert Fathers by Benedicta Ward SLG, which describes two monks "sleeping" together as sin (4th century example). I’ve read most carefully St Anselm’s 2 prayers to St John the Evangelist, where St Anselm prays that St John lead him to the quality of love for the Lord which St John had. There is nothing there to suggest the view that Our Lord had a homosexual relationship with John. Whatever mainstream Christians think of this notion, it is a view which belongs to the realm of spirituality, but one must ask, of what kind and what spirit inspires it? Where is its source in the literature of Christian devotion? What does this do theologically to the Person of the Son in the Trinity? The Trinity as it stands in Christian belief has mongamous family expression with the human celibacy of the Son unquestioned. The Trinity is also a communality of Persons.Most of the images in Christian devotion of the soul’s relation to God are drawn from Scripture and are male/female or monogamous family: male/female, marriage, bridegroom/bride, brother for brother (non sexual), Lord/loving servant, child or/and son, daughter, Father/Son and therefore, son, daughter, King/loving subject, Saviour/Christ/saved human, the Lord as Mother hen and her chickens (St Anselm). Others of interest are: male God/female, human soul (popular in medieval mysticism), and God as Mother (Julian of Norwich, St Anselm, who calls St Paul his mother too, Aelred of Rievaulx, St John of the Cross etc). All Christian spiritualities are Trinitarian – whether Augustinian, Celtic, Benedictine, Franciscan, Julian, Ignatian, Cursillo etc – and there is great interest in them throughout the Church. They have every reason to be discussed and information given on them in this Newsgroup since it is both Christian and Episcopalian. It is a crying shame that it has been taken over by such a vociferous pro-homosexual lobby whose language and attitudes to opponents are far from Christian and whose aim is to prevent any other topic, save their one obsession, from getting an airing. I have to remind myself constantly that there is real agonisng underlying this topic or else any sympathy I have would quickly evaporate. What a way for practising homosexuals in the Church to win anyone to their cause! I wonder what newcomers to this Newsgroup think, especially those with voting powers in the courts of the Church? Have said that, I have appreciated the quiet, dignified approach of some who have disagreed with me. Alas! you are too few! Thank you to those who have had the courage to face the mud-slinging to defend me. I’m grateful, but I’m as tough as old boots so no need to worry on my account! As for me, I am now entering a busy period. I shall come and go as I please, read what I want to read, ignore what I don’t, add a thread if I feel the urge when eventually I can get on line, and retreat (temporally) when I’m fed up with all the argy-bargy. I’ll be back unannounced to drop in a contribution or two every now and again! Most important – I’ll continue to pray for all the members including myself. No hard feelings for anyone! Some words to end – from Thomas Merton: "It was there I first saw Him Whom I now serve as my God and my King And who now owns and rules my life. It is Christ of the Apocalypse, the Christ of the Martyrs, the Christ of the Fathers. It is the Christ of St Paul and St John and of St Augustine and St Jerome, and all the Fathers – and of the Desert Fathers. It is Christ God, Christ King" (In my experience too – Yours? Kathleen) "I bind unto myself this day The strong Name of the Trinity".
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