Catholics & Catholicism

Question:

Just use your filter, it helps keep the BP down, LOL.

I do. And Bill may be next. I always first give prospective PLONKEES a great deal of room to hang themselves without redemption. I.P.

Response:

Dear I.P., I too had very high standards for proof.  As a research scientist it was very important, so I said nothing.  But after several cancer deaths in my family I came to realize that maybe my judgement that everything had to be proven with a double bind study was perhaps to zealous. Perhaps living through the experience was enough.  I can’t stay silent any longer and let people die.  I fully expect to find pessimism.  Sure there are many false cures out there.  If you had the cure for cancer what would you do?

Response:

Ok Billy boy, a few comments… you lose ANY credibility by even IMPLYING that Steve doesn’t care about helping people with cancer. He’s the best. That makes you a stupe. Worse than a dope. Then…I.P….you need not apologize for your language when talking to a stupe. I leave the rest to this most able group. Ron B. In Chicago, the toddlin’ town. Billy can take his cure, make his gazillions, and buy himself an island. or… he can more likely go dumpster diving for a half-eaten donut.

Response:

If you had the cure for cancer what would you do?

I’d proceed with it, and I already have. Just for arguments sake, so you infer that you have "the cure"? If so, you’re wasting your time on this newsgroup. You should be on as many TV news shows as possible, and speaking with the highest centers of learning even faster. You’d be another Jonas Salk or Louis Pasteur or even George Papanicolaou. I’ll be waiting with bated breath. B.A.

Response:

Ok Billy boy, a few comments…

(snip, especially the kind and undeserved remark about me) Before going too far afield, it might be well to review what science has to say about ginger: http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsHerbs/Gingerch.html Note that the nearest it approaches to cancer is that it has been used to relieve nausea caused by chemotherapy. But of course this will not discourage Billy. He’ll now launch into a rant about Eeeevil Big Pharma suppressing cures. I just thought of something. Maybe, just to include the more recent weirdness, if one gave up wearing footwear and dipped the ginger snaps in urine before eating them, this would have a cumulative curative effect! Hmmmmm. Regards, Steve J "I am under no obligation to respect your beliefs. Respect is earned; it is not an entitlement…" — Lionel Shriver

Response:

Suppose I post the following paragraph all over the internet, including in China — the greatest concentration of high-speed internet service on the planet: I absolutely guarantee I can PREVENT your death from cancer. Send me one measly U.S. dollar and a self-addressed stamped envelope and I will send the cure — a simple, delicious, safe, once-a-day snack of a specifically balanced combination of carrots, rice, any fish or poultry you prefer and a certain number of grains of salt — plus a certified promise to refund your dollar to your heirs if cancer kills you more than one year after your sign-up. All your heirs have to do is send me your death certificate and another SASE and I’ll refund your dollar. This offer is open to anyone, so tell everyone you know. The World Bank certifies that I have an account always holding $10,000 to cover my guarantee. Man, I’m RICH! Even if I honor every commitment, I’m rich. But at what price have I gotten rich? 1. I’m morally corrupt. I helped no one. 2. Anyone who delayed or avoided treatment because they believed me is likely to suffer because of me. 3. I look like an idiot to any rational person. 4. Worst of all, I’ve become … a SPAMMER. Getting rich isn’t THAT important to me. I.P.

Response:

You know, Bill, if you had said: Diagnosed PC this age, this PSA, this gleason, this year. Here is what I did:  drank urine, ate ginger, slept in cats claw (or whatever) Here is what happened:  I am this old, this is my PSA, etc, etc– then no one would have yelled at you.  They may have disagreed that your choice was a cure, but they disagree with each other all the time anyway. If you give that information, then you are sharing your experience. Valid enough. No one is going to argue with that.  They may question your veracity, but it depends.  If you are as stupid as you were in your first post, I think prevarication would be obvious. That thing you wrote did not make much sense, but I seem to recall those park bench guys wondering if any of those symptoms were from cancer.  It seems are saying that you thought you had cancer and you took a bunch of herbs and now you don’t think you have cancer.  This is good–very good–for you. But, it’s pretty offensive to men who are fighting for their lives on a daily basis to have this crap stuck in their faces.  I believe there is probably a newsgroup for people who think they have cured themselves from what they think was cancer. I have about 100 more things to say but I’ll quit.  You know what you’re doing, and you are a sick puppy.  If you are going to post to a group, you could at least read a couple of posts.  You’d figure out pretty quick what kind of information (see my first paragraph, above) is shared in this group. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear I.P., I too had very high standards for proof.  As a research scientist it was very important, so I said nothing.  But after several cancer deaths in my family I came to realize that maybe my judgement that everything had to be proven with a double bind study was perhaps to zealous. Perhaps living through the experience was enough.  I can’t stay silent any longer and let people die.  I fully expect to find pessimism.  Sure there are many false cures out there.  If you had the cure for cancer what would you do?

Response:

Bill’s Cancer Cure Copyright 2006. Preface Bill’s Cancer Cure is a fictional short story.  Any resemblance of any character, place, thing or event in this story to any person present or past or any real place, thing or event is coincidental and unintended. It was a beautiful day.  The crisp air still under the clear blue sky. Another meeting of three retired gents was taking place.  Sam, Jack, and Bill have been getting together at this spot for years, always eager to shoot the breeze, tell tall tales, and catch a few rays along with fresh air.  Bill and Sam were sitting on the park bench as Jack rolled up his wheel chair beside them.  "Good morning", said Jack, slightly out of breath.  Bill replied, "Good afternoon Jack, its afternoon."  As Jack and Bill spoke they noticed that Sam was not paying attention.  He seemed to be day dreaming.  They stopped talking, waited, then Bill asked Sam, "Sam, wake up, what are you doing, dreaming?"  "Ah, what?" said Sam.  "Are you OK Sam?" asked Bill. Sam spoke up "I’m not sure, I think I am.  I mean, you now when something happens and your not aware until long after that it happened?  Like you see blood on your finger, you notice you cut yourself, but you don’t know how it happened or when.  I think something like that happened to me but much worse."  "OK I’m game, go ahead" said Jack.  Sam continued, "Well several years ago I had spasms in the nether regions.  So I went to my Doctor, he checked me out, I had an ultrasound, and he said it’s them herbs you’re taking.  Stop taking them.  Of course I didn’t, and the spasms went away.  It was actually a different herb called Cat’s Claw that seemed to cause the spasm.  I thought, Oh maybe there is an impurity in it or it’s a bad batch or something like that."  "So you stopped taking it and that’s the end of the story, right?" asked Bill.  "No", snapped Sam. "It’s just the beginning.  What was in the back of my mind was that Cat’s Claw is an immune system booster that supposedly has some anti-cancer properties.  What if when I started to take the Cat’s Claw that my body started to fight something that was there?"  Jack asked, "So then you had cancer?"  Sam continued, "The Doctor said no, so I couldn’t have, right?   So then six months later I get the flu shot and then I start to get diarrhea, a little at first, then more often, then like every day for three months.  Then it got harder and harder to go and then it stopped.  I thought, finally I’m back to normal, damn flu shot."  "I never heard of flu shots doing anything like that before", said Bill.  "Maybe it was a real mild bout of that Guillain Barre Syndrome thing", said Jack.  Sam asked Jack, "Is that a TV repair term, Jack?"  "Hey Sam just admit TV repair guys are the smartest", Jack replied.  Sam continued, "OK Jack TV repair guys are very, very smart.  So I thought I’m good now.  Then after a few days I think um like I should be going but nothing.  Now it’s a week and I feel real full, I start to get worried.  I start to take Stresstabs multi-vitamins, Opti-Minplex + D multi-minerals, Ginger Root capsules, and forced myself to drink lots of water."  Jack asked, "Are those the 500mg Ginger with 5% Gingerol?"  Sam replied, "Ya, that’s right.  I took one capsule then two then three.  I took more until I maxed out at 6 capsules four times a day.  I took Ginger once before along with Cranberry for Prostatitis instead of antibiotics and it worked, so I thought it was pretty safe.  That was until my heart started to flutter."  "You know," said Jack "Ginger is great for flavoring food and an upset tummy but at high doses it’s different.  If you were taking Aspirin or Coumadin to prevent blood clots you could of hemorrhaged to death or had a stroke.  On top of that it is dangerous if you have a heart rhythm problem."  "Well I’m alive so I guess I’m lucky as well as stupid," said Sam continuing.  "My heart scared me a bit so I stopped the Ginger.  But as soon as my heart was OK I started again at a lower dose.  I took as much as I could until my guts and liver began to ache.  That was about five days, then I stopped everything except the water for about two days."  Bill asked, "You felt good when you were doing this?" "Of course not" said Sam "I was real tired, slept a lot, felt real rotten and weak, it got so bad I felt I had to throw up but couldn’t.  I think the Ginger really prevented me from throwing up."  "Well then" said Jack.  Sam went on, "well my guts started to work a little, they were still pretty jammed up, so after a couple of days when I felt good enough to continue, I did."  "You did that for another week?" asked Bill.  "Oh no" said Sam "I only did it as much as I could which was about three days."  Jack said with a shrug, "Ah ha so you almost killed yourself to cure constipation rather than have an enema."  Sam said "If it was constipation, once it cleared I would have been back to normal quickly.  It would not have felt like a big stopper was in my intestine.  And would not have taken months to heal up.  On top of that I had to do it again three years later.  But the second time it was very easy took only a couple of days, but my heart fluttered again.  Maybe going to the dose that affects the heart is the key.  The first time I think I was lucky I caught it early enough that I still had good enough health that I made it through without kidney failure."  "Or your liver shutting down" said Jack "look if you thought you had the Big C you should have been in the hospital.  They could have watched your heart, given you dialysis if your kidneys got overloaded.  You may have something there about the Ginger dosage.  I read something on the Internet about mitochondria going hyper in cancer cells, maybe the high dose Ginger flips a switch and resets them back to normal.  But since they are damaged or unstable, every once in a while they will need another reset.  Or like the other article I read about mice treated with Ginger for colorectal cancer, you’re just a lucky mouse that got the right treatment by accident."  "Well I’m convinced," said Bill "you had cancer, colorectal or prostate or whatever and you accidentally found a cure.  Maybe it’s just that or maybe it’s for all cancers.  I’m going to make a ton of money."  Jack mockingly said, "Oh ya, Bill’s Cancer Cure."  "Why not?" questioned Bill.  "Preposterous!" blurted Jack getting quite excited "you can’t say anything, you only have Sam’s story.  He never even had a biopsy or any proof that he actually had cancer.  And his treatment could be dangerous, if someone was sicker than he was or had a heart, or kidney, or liver problem they could die."  Bill shot back, "you can’t let people die!  Maybe it is just testimonial evidence, but even anecdotal evidence is evidence.  Have you every seen Ball Lightening?  Well I have and it is real."  "Look," said Jack, "all I’m saying is that you can’t go around shooting off your mouth.  This kind of thing needs a large double blind study that takes years and costs millions."  "Ah Jack" said Bill as he turned red as a beet, "who is going to do that?  We’re talking about Ginger here.  Remember Ginger as in Ginger Ale, Ginger Snap cookies and Ginger a million different foods?  Not one company is going to spend any money to develop Ginger anything even if it’s a cure for cancer." "Gentlemen, gentlemen" piped up Sam "got yah!"   Bill shouted, "you bugger!"  Jack added, "good one!"  They had a good laugh, sighed, leaned back, and caught a few rays.  It was a beautiful day.

Response:

I apologize to those who object to my profane reference to the son of God, but, man, I’m SICK of these idiots and of trying to think up clever ways to express my disgust for them.

Just use your filter, it helps keep the BP down, LOL. Dale j. —

Response:

Go catch PC or something

What makes you think I didn’t? See my responce to       PING: Bill’s Cancer Cure’s writer I’m SICK of these idiots

Having no experience on these groups I was not aware of how open you are to new ideas.

Response:

Go catch PC or something What makes you think I didn’t? See my responce to          PING: Bill’s Cancer Cure’s writer I’m SICK of these idiots Having no experience on these groups I was not aware of how open you are to new ideas.

We’re very open to new ideas … when they are proven by proper trials to work, to do less harm than good, and to be better than proven methods we haven’t tried yet. Look how many thousands of people reject even such mainstream treatments as RP, RT, and/or ADT for many personally valid reasons, then ask yourself how likely they are to think ginger root or urine consumption is going to do what the medical might of the free world cannot promise: cure them. And anyone who thinks herbs are a new cure for PC has lived in a cave for the last several milennia; what he REALLY should be pitching is anti-aging supplements … as soon as he can convince us he has lived in a cave for milennia. I.P.

Response:

Bill’s Cancer Cure Copyright 2006.

(snip sales pitch, which is what it is…) Lawn fertilizer. Love & kisses, Steve J

Response:

Hi Steve, Your a fool if you honestly think it is a sales pitch! There is no sales pitch, no store, no web site, and no one is asking for money.  You obviously don’t care if people die from cancer.  This is no joke, it is real, it is free, and hopefully this useful information that will save many lives. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill’s Cancer Cure Copyright 2006. (snip sales pitch, which is what it is…) Lawn fertilizer. Love & kisses, Steve J

Response:

Hi Steve, hopefully this useful information that will save many lives.

A message must be   O B V I O U S  to get it across to people. If there was information — i.e., a pony — under all that pucky, I didn’t find it in the 6-10 seconds I give a new site or message. If I don’t see a great pony within seconds of clicking on a website or a message, I’m outta there. I.P.

Response:

Hi Steve, hopefully this useful information that will save many lives. A message must be   O B V I O U S  to get it across to people. If there was information — i.e., a pony — under all that pucky, I didn’t find it in the 6-10 seconds I give a new site or message. If I don’t see a great pony within seconds of clicking on a website or a message, I’m outta there.

Oh, Jesus Christ, Bill — I took 11 seconds this time. Cat’s Claw? Ginger something? Get the hell out of here with your BS. Go catch PC or something and marry the lady who drinks her own urine to cure her prostate cancer or whatever the hell THAT was about. I.P. I apologize to those who object to my profane reference to the son of God, but, man, I’m SICK of these idiots and of trying to think up clever ways to express my disgust for them.

Response:

Question:

Caprinardo Delirio wrote: > PLEASE!! show me where it says this? I have been looking.. and I have almost > memorized the entire bible.. and cannot find a reference to this … An > EXACT reference.. not something that could be distorted to mean this. > AND.. You have said it yourself "PEOPLE ARE STUPID"  Do you really think > that if they BELIEVED that jesus was the son of god that they would have > done what they did? NO. They did it because they didnt believe.. pretty much > the theme of the bible = have faith.. believe. > They didnt believe. > kim

kim, are you "born-again"?  have you been baptized and saved?  like what Sister Sandie said, you have to accept Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior for God to accept you into the kingdom of Heaven.  I don’t believe, when everything is all said and done, that people will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.  I think the Lake of Fire was reserved only for Satan and his daemons.  All non-believers will go to the "outer darkness", which I interprets as "nothingness", in the ‘void’.  So they will cease to exist!  If you are already a atheist, then you already believe in the "nothingness" after death.  Jesus Christ is the Son of God!  I believe that God will send a "great Delusion" on this earth soon and many people will be "deluded", but NOT deceived!  For they are deceivers yet true! <alphacat twitches and scratches>

Response:

> What if the very thought of hurting of harming the Son of God in any way > is > so ABHORRENT that you can’t just believe what is said in the Bible is > possible and consider it some kind of sick joke?

Before I became medicated, I thought my life was so ‘abstractly parallel’ to the bible, that I knew the bible must be a sort of sick joke.  Like I am the second coming.  Get Real.  Now f**ing way.  "He’s not the messiah, he’s a naughty, naughty boy".  But all my sensations pointed to this.  God was playing a big joke on me.  Then there was the symbolic crucifixtion (which culminated at the locked psyche ward).  That was no fun either. Then there is reincarnation.  For me it’s like, if I was a reincarnated form, I would leave myself clues about the way things actually are, so in my deepest darkest hour, I would have some comfort, some certainty.  Well for me what better way  transmit them to my future self but in the bible, in the TV, in the Radio. My name is James, and James is a name rich in religous references.  "And he was called a friend of God".  My Catholic confirmation name is Daniel, another name rich religous significance.   King James version my a**…

Response:

Hi Michelle, Kpo of Borg wrote: > And it also says that a load of people will be thrown into a bottomless pit > and scream in torment forever.

The word translated ‘torment’ (for example in Rev. 20:10) means being under a condition of restraint. It was used in the context of jailers (who at times do torment/torture prisoners) so it simply means they (Satan and his followers) cannot escape from that condition of restraint; they will be, in a sense, imprisoned. The "lake of fire" that Satan is thrown into is shown a couple of verses later to mean, or symbolize, the "second death" (that from which no resurrection is possible). Death *itself* is also said to be *thrown into* the lake of fire, to be destroyed. Death is not a thing that can be literally burned, but is a condition. So obviously this "lake of fire" is used in an illustrative way, as a symbol of obliteration. Those who figuratively go into the "lake of fire" simply will not any longer exist, but will undergo the "second death". *No one* will suffer forever; death is unconsciousness. God wishes no one to be destroyed. Yet because we all have free will, it’s possible that some will choose deliberately to oppose God. > You may look forward to the end of death and cures and all that stuff, you > must consider yourself "saved".

I can’t presume that. I don’t know what tests and trials are ahead of me, nor how I will fare. "Let him who thinks he is standing beware lest he fall." I look forward to the end of death etc. in the sense that I hope and pray to see that day. > But what if you cannot believe that anyone would harm a hair on the head of > Jesus, what if you just CANNOT in any way accept it to be possible that a > species would mock the Son of God, jeer Him, torture Him and then nail him > up on a cross AFTER He was prophesied AND He performed miracles. > What if the very thought of hurting of harming the Son of God in any way is > so ABHORRENT that you can’t just believe what is said in the Bible is > possible and consider it some kind of sick joke?

Then I would say that you are wonderfully idealistic, sensitive and caring person who apparently has a deep love for Jesus, a man who was innocent, yet he suffered. This world is a hard place for any of us to live in, but I know it causes you exceptional pain to realize that this unspeakable world exists in our reality. It is that same world that Jesus tells us to limit our involvement with. Yet it is the human family living in that world that Jesus loved enough to courageously die for, so that we can follow him on the path to eternal life. I pray that by God’s grace we will all be in Paradise. > And I don’t want an answer to this Sandie, quoting a load of scriptures. > I know the Truth thanks.

I didn’t quote any scriptures, Michelle, but I hope that the clarifications helped. Sorry if any of my words upset you. I wish you a peaceful day, my good friend. Sandie

Response:

<<And it also says that a load of people will be thrown into a bottomless pit and scream in torment forever.>> PLEASE!! show me where it says this? I have been looking.. and I have almost memorized the entire bible.. and cannot find a reference to this … An EXACT reference.. not something that could be distorted to mean this. AND.. You have said it yourself "PEOPLE ARE STUPID"  Do you really think that if they BELIEVED that jesus was the son of god that they would have done what they did? NO. They did it because they didnt believe.. pretty much the theme of the bible = have faith.. believe. They didnt believe. kim

Response:

"Sandie" <Sandiewon…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1123733141.209971.285860@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Revelation, scripture verses > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > Revelation 21:3-4. "And I heard a loud voice from the throne say, > ‘Look! The tent of God will be with mankind, and he will reside with > them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. > And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no > more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be any more. The former > things have passed away’." > Another verse I like is at chapter 22, verses 1-2. "And he showed me a > river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne > of God and of the Lamb down the middle of its broad way. And on this > side of the river and on that side there were trees of life producing > twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves > of the trees were for the curing of the nations." > I certainly look forward to curing of illnesses, no more death, etc. > I know you find it too weird currently, but if you’re ever interested > in learning about Revelation in more detail, I’ll find some study > materials for you. >> there’s too much lame crap that you are asked to believe in in this world >> like astrology > All are distractions from the more important things. >> i guess christians are just normal people > Some, in some ways maybe. By definition of "normal" though, anyone who > truly tries to follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ doesn’t fit into > the norms of general society of any time or place in this world. >> they can’t understand me any more than anyone else can > Understanding between people is imperfect, since we’re all individuals > who can’t absolutely experience another person’s perspective. I guess > we all feel misunderstood to some degree, at one time or another. It’s > part of the human condition, kez. > But the good part of that is that even imperfect understanding, when it > does happen, then feels like a gift. >> that’s why they all ignore me > Well I’m a Christian and I’m not ignoring you, spacemouse I hope > and pray tomorrow is a better day for you.

And it also says that a load of people will be thrown into a bottomless pit and scream in torment forever. You may look forward to the end of death and cures and all that stuff, you must consider yourself "saved". But what if you cannot believe that anyone would harm a hair on the head of Jesus, what if you just CANNOT in any way accept it to be possible that a species would mock the Son of God, jeer Him, torture Him and then nail him up on a cross AFTER He was prophesied AND He performed miracles. What if the very thought of hurting of harming the Son of God in any way is so ABHORRENT that you can’t just believe what is said in the Bible is possible and consider it some kind of sick joke? And I don’t want an answer to this Sandie, quoting a load of scriptures. I know the Truth thanks.

Response:

christians don’t want to be my friend i am very disappointed i tried to be christian but i don’t believe in revelations i may be mad but revelations is more weird than me. it was probably written by a schizophrenic anyway it’s too weird to be a normal person there’s too much lame crap that you are asked to believe in in this world like astrology i guess christians are just normal people they can’t understand me any more than anyone else can that’s why they all ignore me — kez

Response:

Hi kez, kez wrote: > christians don’t want to be my friend > i am very disappointed

Sorry to hear that. I know you’ve mentioned at least one Christian friend in the past. > i tried to be christian but i don’t believe in revelations > i may be mad but revelations is more weird than me. > it was probably written by a schizophrenic anyway > it’s too weird to be a normal person

Revelation was based on a vision given to John, and the action takes place in the last days of this world system. It’s highly symbolic, and like the book of Daniel, also refers to world powers now and throughout history, among other things. Some of it seems bizarre and scary, and you’re not the first person I’ve heard call Revelation weird. But when you learn what is behind the symbols in the "real world" today, it’s fascinating. Revelation brings hope for the future, and that is not bizarre but rather comforting. For example: Revelation, scripture verses ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! Revelation 21:3-4. "And I heard a loud voice from the throne say, ‘Look! The tent of God will be with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be any more. The former things have passed away’." Another verse I like is at chapter 22, verses 1-2. "And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side there were trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the curing of the nations." I certainly look forward to curing of illnesses, no more death, etc. I know you find it too weird currently, but if you’re ever interested in learning about Revelation in more detail, I’ll find some study materials for you. > there’s too much lame crap that you are asked to believe in in this world > like astrology

All are distractions from the more important things. > i guess christians are just normal people

Some, in some ways maybe. By definition of "normal" though, anyone who truly tries to follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ doesn’t fit into the norms of general society of any time or place in this world. > they can’t understand me any more than anyone else can

Understanding between people is imperfect, since we’re all individuals who can’t absolutely experience another person’s perspective. I guess we all feel misunderstood to some degree, at one time or another. It’s part of the human condition, kez. But the good part of that is that even imperfect understanding, when it does happen, then feels like a gift. > that’s why they all ignore me

Well I’m a Christian and I’m not ignoring you, spacemouse I hope and pray tomorrow is a better day for you. Take care, Sandie

Response:

Question:

FOR ON THAT DAY: COHORTING WITH THE URTIZ FAMILY. Pope Daniel Urtiz "Know thyself." — Socrates.

Response:

Jesus Christ was the Son of God. Wade is not okay with me. White supremists are not okay, but Freedom of Speech is. We need to get a confession from these animals. Airstrike is not welcome in West Palm Beach. The East Coast region of America has a witch problem and President George W. Bush has done little to alleviate it. That’s not okay. Don’t give him your tax money. I don’t want my Social Security income anymore. Pope Daniel Urtiz "Know thyself." — Socrates.

Response:

YOU CAN’T TALK TO THE OFFICER. Pope Daniel Urtiz "Know thyself." — Socrates.

Response:

Question:

Juanita! You gonna get this paper put in the Lancet or just the JAMA, that rolling ad for little blue pills?  Nothing could be a better plan for selling goods to stress laden low libido male population than by suddenly discovering another sixty thousand miles left on their tired old tires.  The marketing demographics for this is bound to become, in terms of  western european and north american cultrual development, equivalent of the veneration of the statue of Ozymandius in ancient days. cactus jammies 1) seriously avoiding laying sonic tonic trax eating fine, thanks for asking, other end works pretty good.  anemia is abaiting for now. 2) look on me ye mighty and despair! 3) Second Law of Robotics 4) Raiding the covens and klaverns of your mind with my version of the Wall of Sound.  Big sound.  Big Big sound. "JV" <Meling…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:6335-42478BCD-75@storefull-3174.bay.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Oh my goodness CJ would you mind forwarding them for my on going Psycho > Analysis consolidation essay on the feller. Seems like a real bad case > of a aliasncognito. There is always a deep rooted and profound reasons > for 17 different addys????????????????? > An investigation will be in order. I even think a second opinion is > necessary from Dr. Killborne next door in sci.fiction ng. > LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL >   Glad your feeling so playful I am >                                  Juanita

Response:

"JV" <Meling…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:6335-42478BCD-75@storefull-3174.bay.webtv.net… > Oh my goodness CJ would you mind forwarding them for my on going Psycho > Analysis consolidation essay on the feller. Seems like a real bad case > of a aliasncognito. There is always a deep rooted and profound reasons > for 17 different addys????????????????? > An investigation will be in order. I even think a second opinion is > necessary from Dr. Killborne next door in sci.fiction ng. > LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL >   Glad your feeling so playful I am >                                  Juanita

Making fun of someone with lies is funny to you? You’re the sicko, Juanita, but I am sure the other sickos here will be happy to let you into the In Group, what with you dissing me, their favorite whipping post. Alias

Response:

Alias.. wrote:

Never a good sign when we have an anonymous poster. > What’s So Special About "Jesus"? Nothing.

Your effort to write this post tells us otherwise, at least in your opinion. > Everything supposedly attributed > to "Jesus" and everything that Christians tout as special and unique about > him had already been done many times before.

Tired retread of long-exploded ‘dying god’ myth noted. Where are you copying this from? > – He rose from the dead ~ big deal, so had others before him.

Like who? > – He performed miracles ~ nothing new in that, it had already been done by > many others.

Document some of them, with evidence that they really did. > – He raised people from the dead ~ so what, so had some of the Old Testament > prophets.

So, Jesus is Elijah?  Or Elijah is Jesus?  Which is it?  And prove it. > – He healed ~ that’s old news and had been accomplished by so many others. > – He was said to be the "Son of God" ~ just like so many others claimed to > be. > – He was "born of a virgin" ~ just like so many others. > – He was reported crucified ~ just like so many others.

‘just like so many others’ ‘just like so many others’ ‘just like so many others’ ‘just like so many others’ ‘just like so many others’ I shan’t need to go to the pet-shop for a parrot: I have you. What kind of pathetic argument is this? > "Jesus" said little that was new or worthwhile.

Compared to the founders of your own religious position — conformity to societal values?  That’s a laugh. > "When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced > without sexual union, and that He, "Jesus Christ", our Teacher, was > crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound > nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons > of Jupiter." Apology 21 by Justin Martyr

Quote-mine noted.  Justin is not addressing this issue: he is pleading not to be executed for being a member of a dangerous cult.  Isn’t it interesting that dishonesty has to be used here? > He did not leave behind any writings, nor did any of his

contemporaries. Nonsense. > There are no contemporary Roman records to prove that Pontius Pilate > executed a man named "Jesus".

There are no contemporary Roman records to prove that Pontius Pilate existed.  There is a piece of masonry; but of course you’ll say that this is a forgery, or something. > Unfortunately for the Christian faith there is > not even a single contemporary writing that mentions "Jesus".

Contemporary meaning in the 30’s AD?  Just what ancient literature exists from that period, that mentions *anyone*? The usual bogus ‘contemporary’ fraud! > All the documents pertaining to him were written at least 30 years the death > of the alleged "Jesus" and are from either unknown authors, people who had > never met the earthly "Jesus", or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical > writings. Many have been proven to be outright fabrications, pious frauds or > interpolations derived from hearsay accounts and can not possibly serve as > reliable evidence for a historical "Jesus".

Nonsense. > Even the sparse and contradictory histories and genealogies of "Jesus" > contradict each other and themselves in many places.

Argument from vituperation — how pathetic.  Any two accounts can be rubbished like this.  But, hey, it’s not as if you’re offering anything for your own hopeless conformity, eh? > – Most Gospel stories are copied from Pagan myths and are standard for > aspiring god-men.

‘just like so many others’ ‘just like so many others’ ‘just like so many others’ ‘just like so many others’ You’re doing the parrot act again. > There are no first hand non-biblical references to "Jesus".

‘There are no accounts except by people I have decided to exclude’ Yeah, sure. > Flavius Josephus’s Antiquities is a favourite source that many Christians > quote to prove the historical existance of "Jesus" because in his > Antiquities there are two references to Jesus.

Awkward for the brain-dead, isn’t it? > He was only reporting the second hand myths and legends as told by > Christians.

Evidence?  Of course, you just made that up. > There are no original manuscripts of Josepheus’ writings > remaining.

Oh dear.  So every ancient text, in your view, is non-existent? > The copies that do remain were made by Christian monks. Perhaps > they were offended because there was no mention of "Jesus" and decided to > add the references in order to validate their belief.

Perhaps you are just lying wildly? > Many serious scholars

You don’t know any. > hold the opinion that Josepheus’s writings have been > embellished to boost the Christians claims about "Jesus", leading some > scholars to question whether this passage from Josepheus was totally > fabricated by the copyists.

And many think this passage authentic.  Most people think it genuine but corrupt.  The other passage is universally considered authentic. > It seems very odd that … [speculation snipped] > There is nothing in any of the works of the writers that were around at the > time, or just after, "Jesus" allegedly was born, preached, was crucified and > resurrected.

Which writers would those be? This post is just a pathetic shed-load of self-serving lies. All the best, Roger Pearse

Response:

…..bored…..       Doug "Alias" <a…@maskedandanonymous.eu> wrote in message

news:e7K1e.25476$dr.10827@news.ono.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Douglas" <d…@adelphia.net> wrote in message > news:aNCdnTUYB50Gw9rfRVn-2g@adelphia.com… >> OBTW Alias…..ho..hum….     Doug > Ho hum? Is this supposed to be clever and cute? > Alias >> . >> . >> " Alias.." <m…@privacy.net> wrote in message >> news:flI1e.27999$US.87@news.ono.com… >>> What’s So Special About "Jesus"? Nothing. Everything supposedly >>> attributed >>> to "Jesus" and everything that Christians tout as special and unique >>> about >>> him had already been done many times before. >>> – He rose from the dead ~ big deal, so had others before him. >>> – He performed miracles ~ nothing new in that, it had already been done >>> by >>> many others. >>> – He raised people from the dead ~ so what, so had some of the Old >>> Testament >>> prophets. >>> – He healed ~ that’s old news and had been accomplished by so many >>> others. >>> – He was said to be the "Son of God" ~ just like so many others claimed >>> to >>> be. >>> – He was "born of a virgin" ~ just like so many others. >>> – He was reported crucified ~ just like so many others. >>> What makes "Jesus" stand out from the crowd of other godmen, saviours >>> and >>> messiahs? Many have claimed to be the savior but if this one really was >>> the >>> "one and only" where are the concrete, testable proofs that substantiate >>> his >>> credentials? Christian assertions, wishful thinking and subjective >>> experiences prove nothing unless you wish to believe. Anyone can claim >>> to be >>> the Messiah, and many have. >>> "Jesus" said little that was new or worthwhile. He introduced no new >>> concepts to ethics apart from hell. He instituted no social programmes >>> although if, as many of his followers believe, he was the "Son of God" >>> or >>> "God made flesh" and not just an invented character, he would have known >>> much more about science, biology or medicine, but he appeared ignorant >>> of >>> such things. >>> "When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced >>> without sexual union, and that He, "Jesus Christ", our Teacher, was >>> crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we >>> propound >>> nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem >>> sons >>> of Jupiter." Apology 21 by Justin Martyr >>> He did not leave behind any writings, nor did any of his contemporaries. >>> All >>> claims of "Jesus" derive from hearsay accounts and there is no physical >>> evidence to support the claim of a historical Jesus; no artifacts or >>> self >>> written documents. >>> There are no contemporary Roman records to prove that Pontius Pilate >>> executed a man named "Jesus". Unfortunately for the Christian faith >>> there is >>> not even a single contemporary writing that mentions "Jesus". >>> All the documents pertaining to him were written at least 30 years the >>> death >>> of the alleged "Jesus" and are from either unknown authors, people who >>> had >>> never met the earthly "Jesus", or from fraudulent, mythical or >>> allegorical >>> writings. Many have been proven to be outright fabrications, pious >>> frauds or >>> interpolations derived from hearsay accounts and can not possibly serve >>> as >>> reliable evidence for a historical "Jesus". >>> Even the sparse and contradictory histories and genealogies of "Jesus" >>> contradict each other and themselves in many places. >>> – The birth of "Jesus" is depicted as having taken place at different >>> times. >>> – Mark does not mention his birth or childhood. >>> – Matthew and Luke claim that he was "born of a virgin," his lineage is >>> traced to the House of David through Joseph, such that he may "fulfill >>> prophecy", but the genealogies in Mark and Luke contradict each other. >>> – He is said in the first three gospels to have taught for one year >>> before >>> his death, while John says three years. >>> – Matthew reports that "The Sermon on the Mount" was given by "Jesus" to >>> "the multitudes". Luke contradicts this by saying that it was a private >>> talk >>> given only to the disciples. >>> – The accounts of his Passion and Resurrection differ utterly from each >>> other, and no one states how old he was when he died. >>> – Paul never knew "Jesus" and has almost nothing to say about the >>> historical >>> Jesus ~ he’s all about the risen Christ. >>> – Paul fails to mention Jesus’ sayings and doings even when doing so >>> would >>> boost his arguments >>> – Most Gospel stories are copied from Pagan myths and are standard for >>> aspiring god-men. >>> – Virgin birth, resurrection, changing water into wine, healing the >>> sick, >>> raising the dead, etc. pre-date Christianity by centuries. >>> You would think that such an important event as the birth of "The >>> Messiah", >>> "The Son of God", "The Saviour of Mankind", etc. would be recorded in >>> exacting detail with his life and times noted with meticulous detail. >>> Could it be that the confusion exists because over the centuries >>> Christians >>> plagiarists were attempting to boost the importance of their beliefs by >>> combining practically every myth, fairytale, legend, or bit of wisdom >>> they >>> could steal from innumerable different mystery religions that were >>> competing >>> for converts? In the process they stole, adapted, re-interpreted, >>> changed, >>> amalgamated, forged, interpolated, mutilated and rewrote these texts for >>> centuries. >>> There are no first hand non-biblical references to "Jesus". >>> Flavius Josephus’s Antiquities is a favourite source that many >>> Christians >>> quote to prove the historical existance of "Jesus" because in his >>> Antiquities there are two references to Jesus. >>> He was only reporting the second hand myths and legends as told by >>> Christians. There are no original manuscripts of Josepheus’ writings >>> remaining. The copies that do remain were made by Christian monks. >>> Perhaps >>> they were offended because there was no mention of "Jesus" and decided >>> to >>> add the references in order to validate their belief. >>> The apparently admirable comments of Josephus concerning "Jesus" are so >>> out >>> of character with the rest his writings and it seems quite obvious from >>> from >>> the general tone of the rest of his work that he was not a Christian, >>> and >>> had little or no sympathy for the Christian world view. >>> Many serious scholars hold the opinion that Josepheus’s writings have >>> been >>> embellished to boost the Christians claims about "Jesus", leading some >>> scholars to question whether this passage from Josepheus was totally >>> fabricated by the copyists. >>> It seems very odd that an event of such significence and so important to >>> the >>> destiny of mankind was not recorded by any of the writers living during >>> the >>> time it supposedly occurred. >>> There is nothing in any of the works of the writers that were around at >>> the >>> time, or just after, "Jesus" allegedly was born, preached, was crucified >>> and >>> resurrected. >>> It seems very odd that an event of such significence and so important to >>> the >>> destiny of mankind was not recorded by a single writer living during the >>> time it occurred. >>> http://www.worldzone.net/family/johnanderson/indexz31.shtml

Response:

Some body’s been watchin tv, but you do not have all your facts, as usual.  Sharon

Response:

Alias wrote: > <roger_pea…@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message > news:1112016812.851720.113670@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… > > Alias.. wrote: > No, I didn’t write it. I posted it.

You think you’re not responsible for what you post?  Do explain. > I didn’t say whether I agreed with it or not so all your debating, well, was > in vain.

Of course. All the best, Roger Pearse

Response:

<roger_pea…@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:1112016812.851720.113670@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… > Alias.. wrote:

No, I didn’t write it. I posted it. If you have any problems with it, contact the author at http://www.worldzone.net/family/johnanderson/indexz31.shtml I didn’t say whether I agreed with it or not so all your debating, well, was in vain. Alias – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Never a good sign when we have an anonymous poster. >> What’s So Special About "Jesus"? Nothing. > Your effort to write this post tells us otherwise, at least in your > opinion. >> Everything supposedly attributed >> to "Jesus" and everything that Christians tout as special and unique > about >> him had already been done many times before. > Tired retread of long-exploded ‘dying god’ myth noted. Where are you > copying this from? >> – He rose from the dead ~ big deal, so had others before him. > Like who? >> – He performed miracles ~ nothing new in that, it had already been > done by >> many others. > Document some of them, with evidence that they really did. >> – He raised people from the dead ~ so what, so had some of the Old > Testament >> prophets. > So, Jesus is Elijah?  Or Elijah is Jesus?  Which is it?  And prove it. >> – He healed ~ that’s old news and had been accomplished by so many > others. >> – He was said to be the "Son of God" ~ just like so many others > claimed to >> be. >> – He was "born of a virgin" ~ just like so many others. >> – He was reported crucified ~ just like so many others. > ‘just like so many others’ > ‘just like so many others’ > ‘just like so many others’ > ‘just like so many others’ > ‘just like so many others’ > I shan’t need to go to the pet-shop for a parrot: I have you. > What kind of pathetic argument is this? >> "Jesus" said little that was new or worthwhile. > Compared to the founders of your own religious position — conformity > to societal values?  That’s a laugh. >> "When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was > produced >> without sexual union, and that He, "Jesus Christ", our Teacher, was >> crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we > propound >> nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you > esteem sons >> of Jupiter." Apology 21 by Justin Martyr > Quote-mine noted.  Justin is not addressing this issue: he is pleading > not to be executed for being a member of a dangerous cult.  Isn’t it > interesting that dishonesty has to be used here? >> He did not leave behind any writings, nor did any of his > contemporaries. > Nonsense. >> There are no contemporary Roman records to prove that Pontius Pilate >> executed a man named "Jesus". > There are no contemporary Roman records to prove that Pontius Pilate > existed.  There is a piece of masonry; but of course you’ll say that > this is a forgery, or something. >> Unfortunately for the Christian faith there is >> not even a single contemporary writing that mentions "Jesus". > Contemporary meaning in the 30’s AD?  Just what ancient literature > exists from that period, that mentions *anyone*? > The usual bogus ‘contemporary’ fraud! >> All the documents pertaining to him were written at least 30 years > the death >> of the alleged "Jesus" and are from either unknown authors, people > who had >> never met the earthly "Jesus", or from fraudulent, mythical or > allegorical >> writings. Many have been proven to be outright fabrications, pious > frauds or >> interpolations derived from hearsay accounts and can not possibly > serve as >> reliable evidence for a historical "Jesus". > Nonsense. >> Even the sparse and contradictory histories and genealogies of > "Jesus" >> contradict each other and themselves in many places. > Argument from vituperation — how pathetic.  Any two accounts can be > rubbished like this.  But, hey, it’s not as if you’re offering anything > for your own hopeless conformity, eh? >> – Most Gospel stories are copied from Pagan myths and are standard > for >> aspiring god-men. > ‘just like so many others’ > ‘just like so many others’ > ‘just like so many others’ > ‘just like so many others’ > You’re doing the parrot act again. >> There are no first hand non-biblical references to "Jesus". > ‘There are no accounts except by people I have decided to exclude’ > Yeah, sure. >> Flavius Josephus’s Antiquities is a favourite source that many > Christians >> quote to prove the historical existance of "Jesus" because in his >> Antiquities there are two references to Jesus. > Awkward for the brain-dead, isn’t it? >> He was only reporting the second hand myths and legends as told by >> Christians. > Evidence?  Of course, you just made that up. >> There are no original manuscripts of Josepheus’ writings >> remaining. > Oh dear.  So every ancient text, in your view, is non-existent? >> The copies that do remain were made by Christian monks. Perhaps >> they were offended because there was no mention of "Jesus" and > decided to >> add the references in order to validate their belief. > Perhaps you are just lying wildly? >> Many serious scholars > You don’t know any. >> hold the opinion that Josepheus’s writings have been >> embellished to boost the Christians claims about "Jesus", leading > some >> scholars to question whether this passage from Josepheus was totally >> fabricated by the copyists. > And many think this passage authentic.  Most people think it genuine > but corrupt.  The other passage is universally considered authentic. >> It seems very odd that … [speculation snipped] >> There is nothing in any of the works of the writers that were around > at the >> time, or just after, "Jesus" allegedly was born, preached, was > crucified and >> resurrected. > Which writers would those be? > This post is just a pathetic shed-load of self-serving lies. > All the best, > Roger Pearse

Response:

"Cactus Jammies" <n…@joshuatree.nemor> wrote in message

news:RQK1e.114893$fc4.84781@edtnps89… > When I reset my filters to exclude this fella, I noticed that it has been > 17 name changes since the first I ever set things up for him.  He should > feel select I suppose, because he was the first non-spambot that I > killfiled. Seventeen changes for him since November, I think it was.

So, are you my biographer now? You’ve counted them? How sick is that? >  Almost as thick as the bible pounders but they claim this time of year > for their own yarns only.  Coca Cola corporation owns Chrissmas.  So I can > tolerate that until the whollie ghillie finds home.  Should be any day > now, figger.

Huh? Is English your native language? > Auditions for the 2005 Maypole Flouncing Flingaree will be held in the > beer garden,  Tough T*tty bar and grisle. On Ruby Tuesday.  Only the > Virtuous need apply. > > cactus jammies

Oh, how clever and witty of you! Alias – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> +++++++++++++++++ fish sign ++++++++++ > "Alias" <a…@maskedandanonymous.eu> wrote in message > news:e7K1e.25476$dr.10827@news.ono.com… >> "Douglas" <d…@adelphia.net> wrote in message >> news:aNCdnTUYB50Gw9rfRVn-2g@adelphia.com… >>> OBTW Alias…..ho..hum….     Doug >> Ho hum? Is this supposed to be clever and cute? >> Alias >>> . >>> . >>> " Alias.." <m…@privacy.net> wrote in message >>> news:flI1e.27999$US.87@news.ono.com… >>>> What’s So Special About "Jesus"? Nothing. Everything supposedly >>>> attributed >>>> to "Jesus" and everything that Christians tout as special and unique >>>> about >>>> him had already been done many times before. >>>> – He rose from the dead ~ big deal, so had others before him. >>>> – He performed miracles ~ nothing new in that, it had already been done >>>> by >>>> many others. >>>> – He raised people from the dead ~ so what, so had some of the Old >>>> Testament >>>> prophets. >>>> – He healed ~ that’s old news and had been accomplished by so many >>>> others. >>>> – He was said to be the "Son of God" ~ just like so many others claimed >>>> to >>>> be. >>>> – He was "born of a virgin" ~ just like so many others. >>>> – He was reported crucified ~ just like so many others. >>>> What makes "Jesus" stand out from the crowd of other godmen, saviours >>>> and >>>> messiahs? Many have claimed to be the savior but if this one really was >>>> the >>>> "one and only" where are the concrete, testable proofs that >>>> substantiate his >>>> credentials? Christian assertions, wishful thinking and subjective >>>> experiences prove nothing unless you wish to believe. Anyone can claim >>>> to be >>>> the Messiah, and many have. >>>> "Jesus" said little that was new or worthwhile. He introduced no new >>>> concepts to ethics apart from hell. He instituted no social programmes >>>> although if, as many of his followers believe, he was the "Son of God" >>>> or >>>> "God made flesh" and not just an invented character, he would have >>>> known >>>> much more about science, biology or medicine, but he appeared ignorant >>>> of >>>> such things. >>>> "When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced >>>> without sexual union, and that He, "Jesus Christ", our Teacher, was >>>> crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we >>>> propound >>>> nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem >>>> sons >>>> of Jupiter." Apology 21 by Justin Martyr >>>> He did not leave behind any writings, nor did any of his >>>> contemporaries. All >>>> claims of "Jesus" derive from hearsay accounts and there is no physical >>>> evidence to support the claim of a historical Jesus; no artifacts or >>>> self >>>> written documents. >>>> There are no contemporary Roman records to prove that Pontius Pilate >>>> executed a man named "Jesus". Unfortunately for the Christian faith >>>> there is >>>> not even a single contemporary writing that mentions "Jesus". >>>> All the documents pertaining to him were written at least 30 years the >>>> death >>>> of the alleged "Jesus" and are from either unknown authors, people who >>>> had >>>> never met the earthly "Jesus", or from fraudulent, mythical or >>>> allegorical >>>> writings. Many have been proven to be outright fabrications, pious >>>> frauds or >>>> interpolations derived from hearsay accounts and can not possibly serve >>>> as >>>> reliable evidence for a historical "Jesus". >>>> Even the sparse and contradictory histories and genealogies of "Jesus" >>>> contradict each other and themselves in many places. >>>> – The birth of "Jesus" is depicted as having taken place at different >>>> times. >>>> – Mark does not mention his birth or childhood. >>>> – Matthew and Luke claim that he was "born of a virgin," his lineage is >>>> traced to the House of David through Joseph, such that he may "fulfill >>>> prophecy", but the genealogies in Mark and Luke contradict each other. >>>> – He is said in the first three gospels to have taught for one year >>>> before >>>> his death, while John says three years. >>>> – Matthew reports that "The Sermon on the Mount" was given by "Jesus" >>>> to >>>> "the multitudes". Luke contradicts this by saying that it was a private >>>> talk >>>> given only to the disciples. >>>> – The accounts of his Passion and Resurrection differ utterly from each >>>> other, and no one states how old he was when he died. >>>> – Paul never knew "Jesus" and has almost nothing to say about the >>>> historical >>>> Jesus ~ he’s all about the risen Christ. >>>> – Paul fails to mention Jesus’ sayings and doings even when doing so >>>> would >>>> boost his arguments >>>> – Most Gospel stories are copied from Pagan myths and are standard for >>>> aspiring god-men. >>>> – Virgin birth, resurrection, changing water into wine, healing the >>>> sick, >>>> raising the dead, etc. pre-date Christianity by centuries. >>>> You would think that such an important event as the birth of "The >>>> Messiah", >>>> "The Son of God", "The Saviour of Mankind", etc. would be recorded in >>>> exacting detail with his life and times noted with meticulous detail. >>>> Could it be that the confusion exists because over the centuries >>>> Christians >>>> plagiarists were attempting to boost the importance of their beliefs by >>>> combining practically every myth, fairytale, legend, or bit of wisdom >>>> they >>>> could steal from innumerable different mystery religions that were >>>> competing >>>> for converts? In the process they stole, adapted, re-interpreted, >>>> changed, >>>> amalgamated, forged, interpolated, mutilated and rewrote these texts >>>> for >>>> centuries. >>>> There are no first hand non-biblical references to "Jesus". >>>> Flavius Josephus’s Antiquities is a favourite source that many >>>> Christians >>>> quote to prove the historical existance of "Jesus" because in his >>>> Antiquities there are two references to Jesus. >>>> He was only reporting the second hand myths and legends as told by >>>> Christians. There are no original manuscripts of Josepheus’ writings >>>> remaining. The copies that do remain were made by Christian monks. >>>> Perhaps >>>> they were offended because there was no mention of "Jesus" and decided >>>> to >>>> add the references in order to validate their belief. >>>> The apparently admirable comments of Josephus concerning "Jesus" are so >>>> out >>>> of character with the rest his writings and it seems quite obvious from >>>> from >>>> the general tone of the rest of his work that he was not a Christian, >>>> and >>>> had little or no sympathy for the Christian world view. >>>> Many serious scholars hold the opinion that Josepheus’s writings have >>>> been >>>> embellished to boost the Christians claims about "Jesus", leading some >>>> scholars to question whether this passage from Josepheus was totally >>>> fabricated by the copyists. >>>> It seems very odd that an event of such significence and so important >>>> to the >>>> destiny of mankind was not recorded by any of the writers living during >>>> the >>>> time it supposedly occurred. >>>> There is nothing in any of the works of the writers that were around at >>>> the >>>> time, or just after, "Jesus" allegedly was born, preached, was >>>> crucified and >>>> resurrected. >>>> It seems very odd that an event of such significence and so important >>>> to the >>>> destiny of mankind was not recorded by a single writer living during >>>> the >>>> time it occurred. >>>> http://www.worldzone.net/family/johnanderson/indexz31.shtml

Response:

Oh my goodness CJ would you mind forwarding them for my on going Psycho Analysis consolidation essay on the feller. Seems like a real bad case of a aliasncognito. There is always a deep rooted and profound reasons for 17 different addys????????????????? An investigation will be in order. I even think a second opinion is necessary from Dr. Killborne next door in sci.fiction ng. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL    Glad your feeling so playful I am                                   Juanita

Response:

"Douglas" <d…@adelphia.net> wrote > …..bored…..       Doug

Yaknow, that’s one thing that I never get is bored. You being a Christian and all, one would think that Easter would be a very exciting time for you, hunting all those easter eggs. Alias – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Alias" <a…@maskedandanonymous.eu> wrote in message > news:e7K1e.25476$dr.10827@news.ono.com… >> "Douglas" <d…@adelphia.net> wrote in message >> news:aNCdnTUYB50Gw9rfRVn-2g@adelphia.com… >>> OBTW Alias…..ho..hum….     Doug >> Ho hum? Is this supposed to be clever and cute? >> Alias >>> . >>> . >>> " Alias.." <m…@privacy.net> wrote in message >>> news:flI1e.27999$US.87@news.ono.com… >>>> What’s So Special About "Jesus"? Nothing. Everything supposedly >>>> attributed >>>> to "Jesus" and everything that Christians tout as special and unique >>>> about >>>> him had already been done many times before. >>>> – He rose from the dead ~ big deal, so had others before him. >>>> – He performed miracles ~ nothing new in that, it had already been done >>>> by >>>> many others. >>>> – He raised people from the dead ~ so what, so had some of the Old >>>> Testament >>>> prophets. >>>> – He healed ~ that’s old news and had been accomplished by so many >>>> others. >>>> – He was said to be the "Son of God" ~ just like so many others claimed >>>> to >>>> be. >>>> – He was "born of a virgin" ~ just like so many others. >>>> – He was reported crucified ~ just like so many others. >>>> What makes "Jesus" stand out from the crowd of other godmen, saviours >>>> and >>>> messiahs? Many have claimed to be the savior but if this one really was >>>> the >>>> "one and only" where are the concrete, testable proofs that >>>> substantiate his >>>> credentials? Christian assertions, wishful thinking and subjective >>>> experiences prove nothing unless you wish to believe. Anyone can claim >>>> to be >>>> the Messiah, and many have. >>>> "Jesus" said little that was new or worthwhile. He introduced no new >>>> concepts to ethics apart from hell. He instituted no social programmes >>>> although if, as many of his followers believe, he was the "Son of God" >>>> or >>>> "God made flesh" and not just an invented character, he would have >>>> known >>>> much more about science, biology or medicine, but he appeared ignorant >>>> of >>>> such things. >>>> "When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced >>>> without sexual union, and that He, "Jesus Christ", our Teacher, was >>>> crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we >>>> propound >>>> nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem >>>> sons >>>> of Jupiter." Apology 21 by Justin Martyr >>>> He did not leave behind any writings, nor did any of his >>>> contemporaries. All >>>> claims of "Jesus" derive from hearsay accounts and there is no physical >>>> evidence to support the claim of a historical Jesus; no artifacts or >>>> self >>>> written documents. >>>> There are no contemporary Roman records to prove that Pontius Pilate >>>> executed a man named "Jesus". Unfortunately for the Christian faith >>>> there is >>>> not even a single contemporary writing that mentions "Jesus". >>>> All the documents pertaining to him were written at least 30 years the >>>> death >>>> of the alleged "Jesus" and are from either unknown authors, people who >>>> had >>>> never met the earthly "Jesus", or from fraudulent, mythical or >>>> allegorical >>>> writings. Many have been proven to be outright fabrications, pious >>>> frauds or >>>> interpolations derived from hearsay accounts and can not possibly serve >>>> as >>>> reliable evidence for a historical "Jesus". >>>> Even the sparse and contradictory histories and genealogies of "Jesus" >>>> contradict each other and themselves in many places. >>>> – The birth of "Jesus" is depicted as having taken place at different >>>> times. >>>> – Mark does not mention his birth or childhood. >>>> – Matthew and Luke claim that he was "born of a virgin," his lineage is >>>> traced to the House of David through Joseph, such that he may "fulfill >>>> prophecy", but the genealogies in Mark and Luke contradict each other. >>>> – He is said in the first three gospels to have taught for one year >>>> before >>>> his death, while John says three years. >>>> – Matthew reports that "The Sermon on the Mount" was given by "Jesus" >>>> to >>>> "the multitudes". Luke contradicts this by saying that it was a private >>>> talk >>>> given only to the disciples. >>>> – The accounts of his Passion and Resurrection differ utterly from each >>>> other, and no one states how old he was when he died. >>>> – Paul never knew "Jesus" and has almost nothing to say about the >>>> historical >>>> Jesus ~ he’s all about the risen Christ. >>>> – Paul fails to mention Jesus’ sayings and doings even when doing so >>>> would >>>> boost his arguments >>>> – Most Gospel stories are copied from Pagan myths and are standard for >>>> aspiring god-men. >>>> – Virgin birth, resurrection, changing water into wine, healing the >>>> sick, >>>> raising the dead, etc. pre-date Christianity by centuries. >>>> You would think that such an important event as the birth of "The >>>> Messiah", >>>> "The Son of God", "The Saviour of Mankind", etc. would be recorded in >>>> exacting detail with his life and times noted with meticulous detail. >>>> Could it be that the confusion exists because over the centuries >>>> Christians >>>> plagiarists were attempting to boost the importance of their beliefs by >>>> combining practically every myth, fairytale, legend, or bit of wisdom >>>> they >>>> could steal from innumerable different mystery religions that were >>>> competing >>>> for converts? In the process they stole, adapted, re-interpreted, >>>> changed, >>>> amalgamated, forged, interpolated, mutilated and rewrote these texts >>>> for >>>> centuries. >>>> There are no first hand non-biblical references to "Jesus". >>>> Flavius Josephus’s Antiquities is a favourite source that many >>>> Christians >>>> quote to prove the historical existance of "Jesus" because in his >>>> Antiquities there are two references to Jesus. >>>> He was only reporting the second hand myths and legends as told by >>>> Christians. There are no original manuscripts of Josepheus’ writings >>>> remaining. The copies that do remain were made by Christian monks. >>>> Perhaps >>>> they were offended because there was no mention of "Jesus" and decided >>>> to >>>> add the references in order to validate their belief. >>>> The apparently admirable comments of Josephus concerning "Jesus" are so >>>> out >>>> of character with the rest his writings and it seems quite obvious from >>>> from >>>> the general tone of the rest of his work that he was not a Christian, >>>> and >>>> had little or no sympathy for the Christian world view. >>>> Many serious scholars hold the opinion that Josepheus’s writings have >>>> been >>>> embellished to boost the Christians claims about "Jesus", leading some >>>> scholars to question whether this passage from Josepheus was totally >>>> fabricated by the copyists. >>>> It seems very odd that an event of such significence and so important >>>> to the >>>> destiny of mankind was not recorded by any of the writers living during >>>> the >>>> time it supposedly occurred. >>>> There is nothing in any of the works of the writers that were around at >>>> the >>>> time, or just after, "Jesus" allegedly was born, preached, was >>>> crucified and >>>> resurrected. >>>> It seems very odd that an event of such significence and so important >>>> to the >>>> destiny of mankind was not recorded by a single writer living during >>>> the >>>> time it occurred. >>>> http://www.worldzone.net/family/johnanderson/indexz31.shtml

Response:

When I reset my filters to exclude this fella, I noticed that it has been 17 name changes since the first I ever set things up for him.  He should feel select I suppose, because he was the first non-spambot that I killfiled. Seventeen changes for him since November, I think it was.  Almost as thick as the bible pounders but they claim this time of year for their own yarns only.  Coca Cola corporation owns Chrissmas.  So I can tolerate that until the whollie ghillie finds home.  Should be any day now, figger. Auditions for the 2005 Maypole Flouncing Flingaree will be held in the beer garden,  Tough T*tty bar and grisle. On Ruby Tuesday.  Only the Virtuous need apply. cactus jammies +++++++++++++++++ fish sign ++++++++++ "Alias" <a…@maskedandanonymous.eu> wrote in message

news:e7K1e.25476$dr.10827@news.ono.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Douglas" <d…@adelphia.net> wrote in message > news:aNCdnTUYB50Gw9rfRVn-2g@adelphia.com… >> OBTW Alias…..ho..hum….     Doug > Ho hum? Is this supposed to be clever and cute? > Alias >> . >> . >> " Alias.." <m…@privacy.net> wrote in message >> news:flI1e.27999$US.87@news.ono.com… >>> What’s So Special About "Jesus"? Nothing. Everything supposedly >>> attributed >>> to "Jesus" and everything that Christians tout as special and unique >>> about >>> him had already been done many times before. >>> – He rose from the dead ~ big deal, so had others before him. >>> – He performed miracles ~ nothing new in that, it had already been done >>> by >>> many others. >>> – He raised people from the dead ~ so what, so had some of the Old >>> Testament >>> prophets. >>> – He healed ~ that’s old news and had been accomplished by so many >>> others. >>> – He was said to be the "Son of God" ~ just like so many others claimed >>> to >>> be. >>> – He was "born of a virgin" ~ just like so many others. >>> – He was reported crucified ~ just like so many others. >>> What makes "Jesus" stand out from the crowd of other godmen, saviours >>> and >>> messiahs? Many have claimed to be the savior but if this one really was >>> the >>> "one and only" where are the concrete, testable proofs that substantiate >>> his >>> credentials? Christian assertions, wishful thinking and subjective >>> experiences prove nothing unless you wish to believe. Anyone can claim >>> to be >>> the Messiah, and many have. >>> "Jesus" said little that was new or worthwhile. He introduced no new >>> concepts to ethics apart from hell. He instituted no social programmes >>> although if, as many of his followers believe, he was the "Son of God" >>> or >>> "God made flesh" and not just an invented character, he would have known >>> much more about science, biology or medicine, but he appeared ignorant >>> of >>> such things. >>> "When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced >>> without sexual union, and that He, "Jesus Christ", our Teacher, was >>> crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we >>> propound >>> nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem >>> sons >>> of Jupiter." Apology 21 by Justin Martyr >>> He did not leave behind any writings, nor did any of his contemporaries. >>> All >>> claims of "Jesus" derive from hearsay accounts and there is no physical >>> evidence to support the claim of a historical Jesus; no artifacts or >>> self >>> written documents. >>> There are no contemporary Roman records to prove that Pontius Pilate >>> executed a man named "Jesus". Unfortunately for the Christian faith >>> there is >>> not even a single contemporary writing that mentions "Jesus". >>> All the documents pertaining to him were written at least 30 years the >>> death >>> of the alleged "Jesus" and are from either unknown authors, people who >>> had >>> never met the earthly "Jesus", or from fraudulent, mythical or >>> allegorical >>> writings. Many have been proven to be outright fabrications, pious >>> frauds or >>> interpolations derived from hearsay accounts and can not possibly serve >>> as >>> reliable evidence for a historical "Jesus". >>> Even the sparse and contradictory histories and genealogies of "Jesus" >>> contradict each other and themselves in many places. >>> – The birth of "Jesus" is depicted as having taken place at different >>> times. >>> – Mark does not mention his birth or childhood. >>> – Matthew and Luke claim that he was "born of a virgin," his lineage is >>> traced to the House of David through Joseph, such that he may "fulfill >>> prophecy", but the genealogies in Mark and Luke contradict each other. >>> – He is said in the first three gospels to have taught for one year >>> before >>> his death, while John says three years. >>> – Matthew reports that "The Sermon on the Mount" was given by "Jesus" to >>> "the multitudes". Luke contradicts this by saying that it was a private >>> talk >>> given only to the disciples. >>> – The accounts of his Passion and Resurrection differ utterly from each >>> other, and no one states how old he was when he died. >>> – Paul never knew "Jesus" and has almost nothing to say about the >>> historical >>> Jesus ~ he’s all about the risen Christ. >>> – Paul fails to mention Jesus’ sayings and doings even when doing so >>> would >>> boost his arguments >>> – Most Gospel stories are copied from Pagan myths and are standard for >>> aspiring god-men. >>> – Virgin birth, resurrection, changing water into wine, healing the >>> sick, >>> raising the dead, etc. pre-date Christianity by centuries. >>> You would think that such an important event as the birth of "The >>> Messiah", >>> "The Son of God", "The Saviour of Mankind", etc. would be recorded in >>> exacting detail with his life and times noted with meticulous detail. >>> Could it be that the confusion exists because over the centuries >>> Christians >>> plagiarists were attempting to boost the importance of their beliefs by >>> combining practically every myth, fairytale, legend, or bit of wisdom >>> they >>> could steal from innumerable different mystery religions that were >>> competing >>> for converts? In the process they stole, adapted, re-interpreted, >>> changed, >>> amalgamated, forged, interpolated, mutilated and rewrote these texts for >>> centuries. >>> There are no first hand non-biblical references to "Jesus". >>> Flavius Josephus’s Antiquities is a favourite source that many >>> Christians >>> quote to prove the historical existance of "Jesus" because in his >>> Antiquities there are two references to Jesus. >>> He was only reporting the second hand myths and legends as told by >>> Christians. There are no original manuscripts of Josepheus’ writings >>> remaining. The copies that do remain were made by Christian monks. >>> Perhaps >>> they were offended because there was no mention of "Jesus" and decided >>> to >>> add the references in order to validate their belief. >>> The apparently admirable comments of Josephus concerning "Jesus" are so >>> out >>> of character with the rest his writings and it seems quite obvious from >>> from >>> the general tone of the rest of his work that he was not a Christian, >>> and >>> had little or no sympathy for the Christian world view. >>> Many serious scholars hold the opinion that Josepheus’s writings have >>> been >>> embellished to boost the Christians claims about "Jesus", leading some >>> scholars to question whether this passage from Josepheus was totally >>> fabricated by the copyists. >>> It seems very odd that an event of such significence and so important to >>> the >>> destiny of mankind was not recorded by any of the writers living during >>> the >>> time it supposedly occurred. >>> There is nothing in any of the works of the writers that were around at >>> the >>> time, or just after, "Jesus" allegedly was born, preached, was crucified >>> and >>> resurrected. >>> It seems very odd that an event of such significence and so important to >>> the >>> destiny of mankind was not recorded by a single writer living during the >>> time it occurred. >>> http://www.worldzone.net/family/johnanderson/indexz31.shtml

Response:

"Douglas" <d…@adelphia.net> wrote in message

news:aNCdnTUYB50Gw9rfRVn-2g@adelphia.com… > OBTW Alias…..ho..hum….     Doug

Ho hum? Is this supposed to be clever and cute? Alias – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> . > . > " Alias.." <m…@privacy.net> wrote in message > news:flI1e.27999$US.87@news.ono.com… >> What’s So Special About "Jesus"? Nothing. Everything supposedly >> attributed >> to "Jesus" and everything that Christians tout as special and unique >> about >> him had already been done many times before. >> – He rose from the dead ~ big deal, so had others before him. >> – He performed miracles ~ nothing new in that, it had already been done >> by >> many others. >> – He raised people from the dead ~ so what, so had some of the Old >> Testament >> prophets. >> – He healed ~ that’s old news and had been accomplished by so many >> others. >> – He was said to be the "Son of God" ~ just like so many others claimed >> to >> be. >> – He was "born of a virgin" ~ just like so many others. >> – He was reported crucified ~ just like so many others. >> What makes "Jesus" stand out from the crowd of other godmen, saviours and >> messiahs? Many have claimed to be the savior but if this one really was >> the >> "one and only" where are the concrete, testable proofs that substantiate >> his >> credentials? Christian assertions, wishful thinking and subjective >> experiences prove nothing unless you wish to believe. Anyone can claim to >> be >> the Messiah, and many have. >> "Jesus" said little that was new or worthwhile. He introduced no new >> concepts to ethics apart from hell. He instituted no social programmes >> although if, as many of his followers believe, he was the "Son of God" or >> "God made flesh" and not just an invented character, he would have known >> much more about science, biology or medicine, but he appeared ignorant of >> such things. >> "When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced >> without sexual union, and that He, "Jesus Christ", our Teacher, was >> crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound >> nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem >> sons >> of Jupiter." Apology 21 by Justin Martyr >> He did not leave behind any writings, nor did any of his contemporaries. >> All >> claims of "Jesus" derive from hearsay accounts and there is no physical >> evidence to support the claim of a historical Jesus; no artifacts or self >> written documents. >> There are no contemporary Roman records to prove that Pontius Pilate >> executed a man named "Jesus". Unfortunately for the Christian faith there >> is >> not even a single contemporary writing that mentions "Jesus". >> All the documents pertaining to him were written at least 30 years the >> death >> of the alleged "Jesus" and are from either unknown authors, people who >> had >> never met the earthly "Jesus", or from fraudulent, mythical or >> allegorical >> writings. Many have been proven to be outright fabrications, pious frauds >> or >> interpolations derived from hearsay accounts and can not possibly serve >> as >> reliable evidence for a historical "Jesus". >> Even the sparse and contradictory histories and genealogies of "Jesus" >> contradict each other and themselves in many places. >> – The birth of "Jesus" is depicted as having taken place at different >> times. >> – Mark does not mention his birth or childhood. >> – Matthew and Luke claim that he was "born of a virgin," his lineage is >> traced to the House of David through Joseph, such that he may "fulfill >> prophecy", but the genealogies in Mark and Luke contradict each other. >> – He is said in the first three gospels to have taught for one year >> before >> his death, while John says three years. >> – Matthew reports that "The Sermon on the Mount" was given by "Jesus" to >> "the multitudes". Luke contradicts this by saying that it was a private >> talk >> given only to the disciples. >> – The accounts of his Passion and Resurrection differ utterly from each >> other, and no one states how old he was when he died. >> – Paul never knew "Jesus" and has almost nothing to say about the >> historical >> Jesus ~ he’s all about the risen Christ. >> – Paul fails to mention Jesus’ sayings and doings even when doing so >> would >> boost his arguments >> – Most Gospel stories are copied from Pagan myths and are standard for >> aspiring god-men. >> – Virgin birth, resurrection, changing water into wine, healing the sick, >> raising the dead, etc. pre-date Christianity by centuries. >> You would think that such an important event as the birth of "The >> Messiah", >> "The Son of God", "The Saviour of Mankind", etc. would be recorded in >> exacting detail with his life and times noted with meticulous detail. >> Could it be that the confusion exists because over the centuries >> Christians >> plagiarists were attempting to boost the importance of their beliefs by >> combining practically every myth, fairytale, legend, or bit of wisdom >> they >> could steal from innumerable different mystery religions that were >> competing >> for converts? In the process they stole, adapted, re-interpreted, >> changed, >> amalgamated, forged, interpolated, mutilated and rewrote these texts for >> centuries. >> There are no first hand non-biblical references to "Jesus". >> Flavius Josephus’s Antiquities is a favourite source that many Christians >> quote to prove the historical existance of "Jesus" because in his >> Antiquities there are two references to Jesus. >> He was only reporting the second hand myths and legends as told by >> Christians. There are no original manuscripts of Josepheus’ writings >> remaining. The copies that do remain were made by Christian monks. >> Perhaps >> they were offended because there was no mention of "Jesus" and decided to >> add the references in order to validate their belief. >> The apparently admirable comments of Josephus concerning "Jesus" are so >> out >> of character with the rest his writings and it seems quite obvious from >> from >> the general tone of the rest of his work that he was not a Christian, and >> had little or no sympathy for the Christian world view. >> Many serious scholars hold the opinion that Josepheus’s writings have >> been >> embellished to boost the Christians claims about "Jesus", leading some >> scholars to question whether this passage from Josepheus was totally >> fabricated by the copyists. >> It seems very odd that an event of such significence and so important to >> the >> destiny of mankind was not recorded by any of the writers living during >> the >> time it supposedly occurred. >> There is nothing in any of the works of the writers that were around at >> the >> time, or just after, "Jesus" allegedly was born, preached, was crucified >> and >> resurrected. >> It seems very odd that an event of such significence and so important to >> the >> destiny of mankind was not recorded by a single writer living during the >> time it occurred. >> http://www.worldzone.net/family/johnanderson/indexz31.shtml

Response:

OBTW Alias…..ho..hum….     Doug . . " Alias.." <m…@privacy.net> wrote in message

news:flI1e.27999$US.87@news.ono.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What’s So Special About "Jesus"? Nothing. Everything supposedly attributed > to "Jesus" and everything that Christians tout as special and unique about > him had already been done many times before. > – He rose from the dead ~ big deal, so had others before him. > – He performed miracles ~ nothing new in that, it had already been done by > many others. > – He raised people from the dead ~ so what, so had some of the Old > Testament > prophets. > – He healed ~ that’s old news and had been accomplished by so many others. > – He was said to be the "Son of God" ~ just like so many others claimed to > be. > – He was "born of a virgin" ~ just like so many others. > – He was reported crucified ~ just like so many others. > What makes "Jesus" stand out from the crowd of other godmen, saviours and > messiahs? Many have claimed to be the savior but if this one really was > the > "one and only" where are the concrete, testable proofs that substantiate > his > credentials? Christian assertions, wishful thinking and subjective > experiences prove nothing unless you wish to believe. Anyone can claim to > be > the Messiah, and many have. > "Jesus" said little that was new or worthwhile. He introduced no new > concepts to ethics apart from hell. He instituted no social programmes > although if, as many of his followers believe, he was the "Son of God" or > "God made flesh" and not just an invented character, he would have known > much more about science, biology or medicine, but he appeared ignorant of > such things. > "When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced > without sexual union, and that He, "Jesus Christ", our Teacher, was > crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound > nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem > sons > of Jupiter." Apology 21 by Justin Martyr > He did not leave behind any writings, nor did any of his contemporaries. > All > claims of "Jesus" derive from hearsay accounts and there is no physical > evidence to support the claim of a historical Jesus; no artifacts or self > written documents. > There are no contemporary Roman records to prove that Pontius Pilate > executed a man named "Jesus". Unfortunately for the Christian faith there > is > not even a single contemporary writing that mentions "Jesus". > All the documents pertaining to him were written at least 30 years the > death > of the alleged "Jesus" and are from either unknown authors, people who had > never met the earthly "Jesus", or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical > writings. Many have been proven to be outright fabrications, pious frauds > or > interpolations derived from hearsay accounts and can not possibly serve as > reliable evidence for a historical "Jesus". > Even the sparse and contradictory histories and genealogies of "Jesus" > contradict each other and themselves in many places. > – The birth of "Jesus" is depicted as having taken place at different > times. > – Mark does not mention his birth or childhood. > – Matthew and Luke claim that he was "born of a virgin," his lineage is > traced to the House of David through Joseph, such that he may "fulfill > prophecy", but the genealogies in Mark and Luke contradict each other. > – He is said in the first three gospels to have taught for one year before > his death, while John says three years. > – Matthew reports that "The Sermon on the Mount" was given by "Jesus" to > "the multitudes". Luke contradicts this by saying that it was a private > talk > given only to the disciples. > – The accounts of his Passion and Resurrection differ utterly from each > other, and no one states how old he was when he died. > – Paul never knew "Jesus" and has almost nothing to say about the > historical > Jesus ~ he’s all about the risen Christ. > – Paul fails to mention Jesus’ sayings and doings even when doing so would > boost his arguments > – Most Gospel stories are copied from Pagan myths and are standard for > aspiring god-men. > – Virgin birth, resurrection, changing water into wine, healing the sick, > raising the dead, etc. pre-date Christianity by centuries. > You would think that such an important event as the birth of "The > Messiah", > "The Son of God", "The Saviour of Mankind", etc. would be recorded in > exacting detail with his life and times noted with meticulous detail. > Could it be that the confusion exists because over the centuries > Christians > plagiarists were attempting to boost the importance of their beliefs by > combining practically every myth, fairytale, legend, or bit of wisdom they > could steal from innumerable different mystery religions that were > competing > for converts? In the process they stole, adapted, re-interpreted, changed, > amalgamated, forged, interpolated, mutilated and rewrote these texts for > centuries. > There are no first hand non-biblical references to "Jesus". > Flavius Josephus’s Antiquities is a favourite source that many Christians > quote to prove the historical existance of "Jesus" because in his > Antiquities there are two references to Jesus. > He was only reporting the second hand myths and legends as told by > Christians. There are no original manuscripts of Josepheus’ writings > remaining. The copies that do remain were made by Christian monks. Perhaps > they were offended because there was no mention of "Jesus" and decided to > add the references in order to validate their belief. > The apparently admirable comments of Josephus concerning "Jesus" are so > out > of character with the rest his writings and it seems quite obvious from > from > the general tone of the rest of his work that he was not a Christian, and > had little or no sympathy for the Christian world view. > Many serious scholars hold the opinion that Josepheus’s writings have been > embellished to boost the Christians claims about "Jesus", leading some > scholars to question whether this passage from Josepheus was totally > fabricated by the copyists. > It seems very odd that an event of such significence and so important to > the > destiny of mankind was not recorded by any of the writers living during > the > time it supposedly occurred. > There is nothing in any of the works of the writers that were around at > the > time, or just after, "Jesus" allegedly was born, preached, was crucified > and > resurrected. > It seems very odd that an event of such significence and so important to > the > destiny of mankind was not recorded by a single writer living during the > time it occurred. > http://www.worldzone.net/family/johnanderson/indexz31.shtml

Response:

What’s So Special About "Jesus"? Nothing. Everything supposedly attributed to "Jesus" and everything that Christians tout as special and unique about him had already been done many times before. – He rose from the dead ~ big deal, so had others before him. – He performed miracles ~ nothing new in that, it had already been done by many others. – He raised people from the dead ~ so what, so had some of the Old Testament prophets. – He healed ~ that’s old news and had been accomplished by so many others. – He was said to be the "Son of God" ~ just like so many others claimed to be. – He was "born of a virgin" ~ just like so many others. – He was reported crucified ~ just like so many others. What makes "Jesus" stand out from the crowd of other godmen, saviours and messiahs? Many have claimed to be the savior but if this one really was the "one and only" where are the concrete, testable proofs that substantiate his credentials? Christian assertions, wishful thinking and subjective experiences prove nothing unless you wish to believe. Anyone can claim to be the Messiah, and many have. "Jesus" said little that was new or worthwhile. He introduced no new concepts to ethics apart from hell. He instituted no social programmes although if, as many of his followers believe, he was the "Son of God" or "God made flesh" and not just an invented character, he would have known much more about science, biology or medicine, but he appeared ignorant of such things. "When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, "Jesus Christ", our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter." Apology 21 by Justin Martyr He did not leave behind any writings, nor did any of his contemporaries. All claims of "Jesus" derive from hearsay accounts and there is no physical evidence to support the claim of a historical Jesus; no artifacts or self written documents. There are no contemporary Roman records to prove that Pontius Pilate executed a man named "Jesus". Unfortunately for the Christian faith there is not even a single contemporary writing that mentions "Jesus". All the documents pertaining to him were written at least 30 years the death of the alleged "Jesus" and are from either unknown authors, people who had never met the earthly "Jesus", or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Many have been proven to be outright fabrications, pious frauds or interpolations derived from hearsay accounts and can not possibly serve as reliable evidence for a historical "Jesus". Even the sparse and contradictory histories and genealogies of "Jesus" contradict each other and themselves in many places. – The birth of "Jesus" is depicted as having taken place at different times. – Mark does not mention his birth or childhood. – Matthew and Luke claim that he was "born of a virgin," his lineage is traced to the House of David through Joseph, such that he may "fulfill prophecy", but the genealogies in Mark and Luke contradict each other. – He is said in the first three gospels to have taught for one year before his death, while John says three years. – Matthew reports that "The Sermon on the Mount" was given by "Jesus" to "the multitudes". Luke contradicts this by saying that it was a private talk given only to the disciples. – The accounts of his Passion and Resurrection differ utterly from each other, and no one states how old he was when he died. – Paul never knew "Jesus" and has almost nothing to say about the historical Jesus ~ he’s all about the risen Christ. – Paul fails to mention Jesus’ sayings and doings even when doing so would boost his arguments – Most Gospel stories are copied from Pagan myths and are standard for aspiring god-men. – Virgin birth, resurrection, changing water into wine, healing the sick, raising the dead, etc. pre-date Christianity by centuries. You would think that such an important event as the birth of "The Messiah", "The Son of God", "The Saviour of Mankind", etc. would be recorded in exacting detail with his life and times noted with meticulous detail. Could it be that the confusion exists because over the centuries Christians plagiarists were attempting to boost the importance of their beliefs by combining practically every myth, fairytale, legend, or bit of wisdom they could steal from innumerable different mystery religions that were competing for converts? In the process they stole, adapted, re-interpreted, changed, amalgamated, forged, interpolated, mutilated and rewrote these texts for centuries. There are no first hand non-biblical references to "Jesus". Flavius Josephus’s Antiquities is a favourite source that many Christians quote to prove the historical existance of "Jesus" because in his Antiquities there are two references to Jesus. He was only reporting the second hand myths and legends as told by Christians. There are no original manuscripts of Josepheus’ writings remaining. The copies that do remain were made by Christian monks. Perhaps they were offended because there was no mention of "Jesus" and decided to add the references in order to validate their belief. The apparently admirable comments of Josephus concerning "Jesus" are so out of character with the rest his writings and it seems quite obvious from from the general tone of the rest of his work that he was not a Christian, and had little or no sympathy for the Christian world view. Many serious scholars hold the opinion that Josepheus’s writings have been embellished to boost the Christians claims about "Jesus", leading some scholars to question whether this passage from Josepheus was totally fabricated by the copyists. It seems very odd that an event of such significence and so important to the destiny of mankind was not recorded by any of the writers living during the time it supposedly occurred. There is nothing in any of the works of the writers that were around at the time, or just after, "Jesus" allegedly was born, preached, was crucified and resurrected. It seems very odd that an event of such significence and so important to the destiny of mankind was not recorded by a single writer living during the time it occurred. http://www.worldzone.net/family/johnanderson/indexz31.shtml

Response:

Question:

Hi group, I am a newbie to this group.  I like how everyone supports one another and I hope to become a regulary.  Does everyone here belong to Weight Watchers?  or just weight watchers?   Susan

Response:

Welcome susanmari Hi group, I am a newbie to this group.  I like how everyone supports one another and I hope to become a regulary.  Does everyone here belong to Weight Watchers?  or just weight watchers?

Most of us have been, and many still go – I haven’t been to a meeting in around a year, just continued what I started. Others go every week – but we all roughly follow the Weight Watchers plan in some form or another, however it is around the world . danabanana — (376.2 – 206.8 – 198)lbs (171 – 94 – 90)kgs (169.4lbs/77kgs less of me!) http://dana.jaime.com/ —

Response:

Hi Deb, I am excited to welcome another Northern Californian! Can you believe we have snow in the bay area?  Do you live anywhere near me, Deb? Billie in San Francisco 207.2 / 168.8 / Val. Day Goal 166.2 (-10) 7.4 lost 2.6 to go Total lost 38.4 If` there is anything half so much fun as being alive, I’d  like to know what it is!

Response:

I believe losing weight is one of the best things you can do for yourself, and those who love you..WE KNOW THIS FOR A FACT !!! Good luck to you… http://community.webtv.net/The-Fat-Burners/TheFatBurnersDoug Please check out our web page!!        

Response:

Billie, I live east of you in Stockton.  I could not believe my eyes on Tuesday morning when I saw snow very low on Mt Diablo and the foothills of the Sierra Nevada, it was gorgeous.  Too bad it only happens once a year. Deb

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Deb, I am excited to welcome another Northern Californian! Can you believe we have snow in the bay area?  Do you live anywhere near me, Deb? Billie in San Francisco 207.2 / 168.8 / Val. Day Goal 166.2 (-10) 7.4 lost 2.6 to go Total lost 38.4 If` there is anything half so much fun as being alive, I’d  like to know what it is!

Response:

hi debbie and welcome the the group <a href="http://homepages.go.com/~becky_74/Funny/main.htm l" <img src="http://angelfire.com/mi3/beckyboo/guestbk-award.g if" </a

Response:

Hi Deb!!! and Welcome, glad that you are here. Remember….. we are here to help you in all ways, happy times sad times frustrated times. There are some days that I would not made it thru as easy if it wasn’t for this group!!! Erin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, My name is Debbie and I just found this group, I am looking forward to being a participant here as I am a fellow Weight Watcher member. I joined Weight Watchers on December 30, 2000.  My starting weight was 319.4 and I am currently at 300.2.  I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years. I am inspired by the stories I have read that have been posted here. Thanks for having such a great group around. Deb 319.4/300.2/150

Response:

Welcome to ASDWW Deb. — =;=;=;=;=;=;=;;=;=;=;=;=;=;=;=;=;=;=;=;= VAL from UK 176/162/135 VDM goal 160 95 miles exercised since 9 Jan =;=;=;=;=;=;;=;=;=;=;=;=;=;=;=;=;=;=;=;= When you lose, don’t lose the lesson Take away points to reply by email http://brimfast.homestead.com/poetry.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Carol, Thanks for your words of encouragement.  I am all too familiar with the dreaded plateaus.  I have been on WW a couple of times before and even continued for two years on a plateau and finally ended up  quitting.  I have not been near my goal weight since I was at least 13 years old, so my body has no clue what it is like at that weight. Congrats on your weight loss, you are doing well. Deb 319.4/300.2/150 goal for the week  change that first number on the scale from a 3 to a 2. mini goal  my 10% by April 1.  288.4 "Mia" wrote to Deb: Welcome to the group, participation is much appreciated and expected! Rocki or Joanie will post a nice list of tips for you. I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years. I’m so glad you wrote this. It seems you have a realistic plan for achieving your goal. If you had written you want to reach your goal in the next six months, we would have a problem. Losing 150 pounds in two years is a steady 1 and a half pounds a week, every week, reliably, for two years.  Life just isn’t that regular, it may take you a bit longer, especially as the rate of loss slows as you near your goal.  I hope you do lose that consistently and don’t hit any long plateaus or get discouraged when you don’t lose at that rate (it could happen). You may very well lose that consistently for two years, but in case the rate slows, please allow yourself some grace period.  Even taking three years would be a huge accomplishment!  (I’m allowing myself plenty of time, as you can see below.) Congratulations on your loss so far, and best of luck on your journey and lifelong changes! — Carol Schmidt, Phoenix, AZ, USA 366 start on April 18, 2000 312.5 now, 53.5 pounds lost blew through my 10-pound Valentine’s Day minigoal 309.9 next minigoal 299.9 minigoal for April 18, 2001 166 goal for the year 2007

Response:

Rocki, Thanks for the welcome, I see you are a great group of supportive and fellow WW.  I have already been swigging the water every time I see the word water. Deb 319.4/300.2/150 weeks goal  to see the number on the scale change from a 3 to a 2. April 1 goal my 10%  288.4

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Debbie and welcome to the group. Here are some hints and tips for you to get you started. Read and post often – it gets busy round here but we are a friendly group who will do all we can to help and inspire you ) *** There are lots of friendly supportive folks around here who have a really good idea of what you’re going through.  We’re definitely here to help! Here are some tips that might help you stay motivated and keep on track.  If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to ask! ****** 1. Drink lots of water.. I mean at least 8 – 8 0z glasses a day  PLUS a glass of water for every 25 pounds overweight you are. I weigh 220 and I am drinking 100 OZ of water a day. For information on WHY you need the water… read this article, it is chalk full of good reasons.  This is written by a fellow ASDer, Claudia, and is excellent. http://dietchef.ecorp.net/articles/health/water.htm 2.  Here on the ASDWW NG, we play a game to help each other out.  Every time someone mentions the word "water" in a post, you take a swill from your water glass!  This helps everyone remember to get all their water in.  You are invited to participate. 3. LEARN all you can about the importance of getting to your desired weight.. Whatever way of eating you do, learn all about it. I do Weight Watchers, I learned about WW and am making it my life’s journey. That is what we on the WW NG are doing.. so join us! There is a great website that I like to tell people about built and written by a fellow WW member… she has filled her website with GREAT ideas, tips, ways she lost, before and after pics…  I highly recommend you click on this link and look around. I go there for inspiration and motivation. I love this site.. http://www.dottisweightlosszone.com/mystory.html 4. Exercise!! The BEST way to speed up your weight loss, is to add regular exercise to your lifestyle (wol = way of living).   SHAKE IT UP…  eg: do gym cardio one day.. on alternate days do…  walk, hike, dance like a fool in your living room.. don’t let your body have the chance to get used to what you are doing. ) You need to trick it, as your body can adapt and that is where you reach plateaus.  :)   Some of us on the WW NG have joined Destination 2000… there is a website dedicated to this if you are interested in setting exercise goals for yourself… http://www.geocities.com/mystic1972/index.htm 5. Snack during the day using healthy foods. There are a lot of good ideas on here to be had, keep your eyes open. Junk food binges usually happen because your body has had an insulin spike after a meal, and if you satisfy that craving or urge to eat, put something good in your tummy instead of junk… by eating junk food… you slide back, your exercise will have been for nothing, as you are giving your body more fat to store. MAKE YOUR EXERCISE COUNT!!  Nothing tastes as good as slim feels  REMEMBER THAT. ) Joanie’s Dr. recommends chromium for cravings.. the doctor said that if she takes one with the main meal, it will help to even out your blood sugar level, and thereby prevents cravings. 6. Ask yourself why you want to lose weight?  Make a list of the reasons you have to lose…  put them in one column….  then ask yourself why you should not lose weight, put those reasons in the other column. I think you will find that you have every reason on earth to get healthy. Many of us were not taught the right way to eat. (we grew up on hamburger helper… you just don’t know how many ways there are to serve it.. )  I don’t blame my mum, as she didn’t’ know better… but in this day and age, where information is at our fingertips…  make it your business to learn about all of this! 7. Eat breakfast! It will help you to have energy during the day, and prevent cravings mid morning and lunch time. It also helps your metabolism as your body doesn’t go into starvation mode… and slow your metabolism.  Also, if you are having difficulties making your minimum points for the day, adding a few extra points for breakfast is a great way to make sure you’re eating enough! 8. Set minigoals for yourself… how about setting your goal to lose 5 pounds…  and that is ALL you have to think about… getting down 5 pounds! .  Once you reach that, you set a new number… It helps to say "I have 5 pounds to lose!" I can do that!!!   Rather than saying I have 125 pounds (like me) to lose UGH! 9. Dont’ be in a rush for it all to happen at once…. it took a long time to put the weight on, it won’t come off in a week or two. Patience. You have a lifetime to get this right, there is no hurry. 10. Get the FAQ’s ma’am!   ASDWW FAQ: http://www.didian.com/asdww/ This is the faq made up for asdww by Cindy now maintained by Diane. Thanks! It is a list of commonly asked questions here on WW ASD. 11. this is where you can find the list of some of the regulars you will see on this NG http://aclancy.home.mindspring.com/WW/ ****** 12. We on the NG have a website It has a chat room, and a message area, and we are starting up a clothing swap. So come have a look at http://members.home.net/joanie-55 ****** Hope some of this helps! *** Today is the tomorrow you dreamed about yesterday. Good luck – — ~ ~ Rocki ~ ~ S. Devon,  U.K. 219/1??/140 Total Lost : 63 lbs Final Dream Goal :133 "If you believe – you can achieve" Hello, My name is Debbie and I just found this group, I am looking forward to being a participant here as I am a fellow Weight Watcher member. I joined Weight Watchers on December 30, 2000.  My starting weight was 319.4 and I am currently at 300.2.  I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years. I am inspired by the stories I have read that have been posted here. Thanks for having such a great group around. Deb 319.4/300.2/150

Response:

Carol, Thanks for your words of encouragement.  I am all too familiar with the dreaded plateaus.  I have been on WW a couple of times before and even continued for two years on a plateau and finally ended up  quitting.  I have not been near my goal weight since I was at least 13 years old, so my body has no clue what it is like at that weight. Congrats on your weight loss, you are doing well. Deb 319.4/300.2/150 goal for the week  change that first number on the scale from a 3 to a 2. mini goal  my 10% by April 1.  288.4

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Mia" wrote to Deb: Welcome to the group, participation is much appreciated and expected! Rocki or Joanie will post a nice list of tips for you. I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years. I’m so glad you wrote this. It seems you have a realistic plan for achieving your goal. If you had written you want to reach your goal in the next six months, we would have a problem. Losing 150 pounds in two years is a steady 1 and a half pounds a week, every week, reliably, for two years.  Life just isn’t that regular, it may take you a bit longer, especially as the rate of loss slows as you near your goal.  I hope you do lose that consistently and don’t hit any long plateaus or get discouraged when you don’t lose at that rate (it could happen). You may very well lose that consistently for two years, but in case the rate slows, please allow yourself some grace period.  Even taking three years would be a huge accomplishment!  (I’m allowing myself plenty of time, as you can see below.) Congratulations on your loss so far, and best of luck on your journey and lifelong changes! — Carol Schmidt, Phoenix, AZ, USA 366 start on April 18, 2000 312.5 now, 53.5 pounds lost blew through my 10-pound Valentine’s Day minigoal 309.9 next minigoal 299.9 minigoal for April 18, 2001 166 goal for the year 2007

Response:

Welcome, the more the merrier. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, My name is Debbie and I just found this group, I am looking forward to being a participant here as I am a fellow Weight Watcher member. I joined Weight Watchers on December 30, 2000.  My starting weight was 319.4 and I am currently at 300.2.  I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years. I am inspired by the stories I have read that have been posted here. Thanks for having such a great group around. Deb 319.4/300.2/150

Response:

Hi Deb, Welcome to the group, it is always nice to see newbies join. There are heaps of motivational people in here, it’s a really good group! I find that I get more motivation from this NG than I do my actual WW meeting. Anyway goodluck and I look forward to seeing you post in here ) Susan Starting Weight : 290.5Ibs/262.5Ibs/mini goal257.5Ibs/150Ibs (London Uk)

Response:

Welcome to the group Deb! You have found the perfect support group here. Good luck on your journey. )) — Linda from Edmonton, Alberta Canada 204.4/183/(min goal #4 180) 155 916 mile club – 32.79/916 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, My name is Debbie and I just found this group, I am looking forward to being a participant here as I am a fellow Weight Watcher member. I joined Weight Watchers on December 30, 2000.  My starting weight was 319.4 and I am currently at 300.2.  I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years. I am inspired by the stories I have read that have been posted here. Thanks for having such a great group around. Deb 319.4/300.2/150

Response:

Hello, My name is Debbie and I just found this group, I am looking forward to being a participant here as I am a fellow Weight Watcher member. I joined Weight Watchers on December 30, 2000.  My starting weight was 319.4 and I am currently at 300.2.  I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years.

What a terrific start, Deb, and I like your attitude. Welcome!!! Lara W.

Response:

hi Deb and welcome to the group — ~~Joanie~~ Started WW Oct 31/2000 224.6/219/215 (personal minigoal #2) /202.6 = 10% Valentines Day Massacre  goal 215 5′5"  - rubenesque  hourglass shape 916 mile club miles done:   47.95/916 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, My name is Debbie and I just found this group, I am looking forward to being a participant here as I am a fellow Weight Watcher member. I joined Weight Watchers on December 30, 2000.  My starting weight was 319.4 and I am currently at 300.2.  I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years. I am inspired by the stories I have read that have been posted here. Thanks for having such a great group around. Deb 319.4/300.2/150

Response:

Hi Debbie and welcome to the group. Here are some hints and tips for you to get you started. Read and post often – it gets busy round here but we are a friendly group who will do all we can to help and inspire you ) *** There are lots of friendly supportive folks around here who have a really good idea of what you’re going through.  We’re definitely here to help! Here are some tips that might help you stay motivated and keep on track.  If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to ask! ****** 1. Drink lots of water.. I mean at least 8 – 8 0z glasses a day  PLUS a glass of water for every 25 pounds overweight you are. I weigh 220 and I am drinking 100 OZ of water a day. For information on WHY you need the water… read this article, it is chalk full of good reasons.  This is written by a fellow ASDer, Claudia, and is excellent. http://dietchef.ecorp.net/articles/health/water.htm 2.  Here on the ASDWW NG, we play a game to help each other out.  Every time someone mentions the word "water" in a post, you take a swill from your water glass!  This helps everyone remember to get all their water in.  You are invited to participate. 3. LEARN all you can about the importance of getting to your desired weight.. Whatever way of eating you do, learn all about it. I do Weight Watchers, I learned about WW and am making it my life’s journey. That is what we on the WW NG are doing.. so join us! There is a great website that I like to tell people about built and written by a fellow WW member… she has filled her website with GREAT ideas, tips, ways she lost, before and after pics…  I highly recommend you click on this link and look around. I go there for inspiration and motivation. I love this site.. http://www.dottisweightlosszone.com/mystory.html 4. Exercise!! The BEST way to speed up your weight loss, is to add regular exercise to your lifestyle (wol = way of living).   SHAKE IT UP…  eg: do gym cardio one day.. on alternate days do…  walk, hike, dance like a fool in your living room.. don’t let your body have the chance to get used to what you are doing. ) You need to trick it, as your body can adapt and that is where you reach plateaus.  :)   Some of us on the WW NG have joined Destination 2000… there is a website dedicated to this if you are interested in setting exercise goals for yourself… http://www.geocities.com/mystic1972/index.htm 5. Snack during the day using healthy foods. There are a lot of good ideas on here to be had, keep your eyes open. Junk food binges usually happen because your body has had an insulin spike after a meal, and if you satisfy that craving or urge to eat, put something good in your tummy instead of junk… by eating junk food… you slide back, your exercise will have been for nothing, as you are giving your body more fat to store. MAKE YOUR EXERCISE COUNT!!  Nothing tastes as good as slim feels  REMEMBER THAT. ) Joanie’s Dr. recommends chromium for cravings.. the doctor said that if she takes one with the main meal, it will help to even out your blood sugar level, and thereby prevents cravings. 6. Ask yourself why you want to lose weight?  Make a list of the reasons you have to lose…  put them in one column….  then ask yourself why you should not lose weight, put those reasons in the other column. I think you will find that you have every reason on earth to get healthy. Many of us were not taught the right way to eat. (we grew up on hamburger helper… you just don’t know how many ways there are to serve it.. )  I don’t blame my mum, as she didn’t’ know better… but in this day and age, where information is at our fingertips…  make it your business to learn about all of this! 7. Eat breakfast! It will help you to have energy during the day, and prevent cravings mid morning and lunch time. It also helps your metabolism as your body doesn’t go into starvation mode… and slow your metabolism.  Also, if you are having difficulties making your minimum points for the day, adding a few extra points for breakfast is a great way to make sure you’re eating enough! 8. Set minigoals for yourself… how about setting your goal to lose 5 pounds…  and that is ALL you have to think about… getting down 5 pounds! .  Once you reach that, you set a new number… It helps to say "I have 5 pounds to lose!" I can do that!!!   Rather than saying I have 125 pounds (like me) to lose UGH! 9. Dont’ be in a rush for it all to happen at once…. it took a long time to put the weight on, it won’t come off in a week or two. Patience. You have a lifetime to get this right, there is no hurry. 10. Get the FAQ’s ma’am!   ASDWW FAQ: http://www.didian.com/asdww/ This is the faq made up for asdww by Cindy now maintained by Diane. Thanks! It is a list of commonly asked questions here on WW ASD. 11. this is where you can find the list of some of the regulars you will see on this NG http://aclancy.home.mindspring.com/WW/ ****** 12. We on the NG have a website It has a chat room, and a message area, and we are starting up a clothing swap. So come have a look at http://members.home.net/joanie-55 ****** Hope some of this helps! *** Today is the tomorrow you dreamed about yesterday. Good luck – — ~ ~ Rocki ~ ~ S. Devon,  U.K. 219/1??/140 Total Lost : 63 lbs Final Dream Goal :133 "If you believe – you can achieve" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, My name is Debbie and I just found this group, I am looking forward to being a participant here as I am a fellow Weight Watcher member. I joined Weight Watchers on December 30, 2000.  My starting weight was 319.4 and I am currently at 300.2.  I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years. I am inspired by the stories I have read that have been posted here. Thanks for having such a great group around. Deb 319.4/300.2/150

Response:

Deb Great to meet you, you have done very well since your December start and now you have found us, well, the world is your oyster.  Read and reply often so we can find out more about you and can share in your success. Blessings Sue The Rangerz Matthew 218/202/175  (16lbs gone)  and  Sue 220/205/154 (15lbs gone) (Both started 5th Jan 2001) Twins are a gift from Heaven above, twice as nice and giftwrapped in love. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, My name is Debbie and I just found this group, I am looking forward to being a participant here as I am a fellow Weight Watcher member. I joined Weight Watchers on December 30, 2000.  My starting weight was 319.4 and I am currently at 300.2.  I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years. I am inspired by the stories I have read that have been posted here. Thanks for having such a great group around. Deb 319.4/300.2/150

Response:

Welcome to our group Debbie.  And good luck with your new journey. Denise, Melb, Aust

Response:

Hi Debbie Welcome to the group, im looking forward to know you, Sara. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello, My name is Debbie and I just found this group, I am looking forward to being a participant here as I am a fellow Weight Watcher member. I joined Weight Watchers on December 30, 2000.  My starting weight was 319.4 and I am currently at 300.2.  I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years. I am inspired by the stories I have read that have been posted here. Thanks for having such a great group around. Deb 319.4/300.2/150

Response:

"Mia" wrote to Deb: Welcome to the group, participation is much appreciated and expected! Rocki or Joanie will post a nice list of tips for you. I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years. I’m so glad you wrote this. It seems you have a realistic plan for achieving your goal. If you had written you want to reach your goal in the next six months, we would have a problem.

Losing 150 pounds in two years is a steady 1 and a half pounds a week, every week, reliably, for two years.  Life just isn’t that regular, it may take you a bit longer, especially as the rate of loss slows as you near your goal.  I hope you do lose that consistently and don’t hit any long plateaus or get discouraged when you don’t lose at that rate (it could happen). You may very well lose that consistently for two years, but in case the rate slows, please allow yourself some grace period.  Even taking three years would be a huge accomplishment!  (I’m allowing myself plenty of time, as you can see below.) Congratulations on your loss so far, and best of luck on your journey and lifelong changes! — Carol Schmidt, Phoenix, AZ, USA 366 start on April 18, 2000 312.5 now, 53.5 pounds lost blew through my 10-pound Valentine’s Day minigoal 309.9 next minigoal 299.9 minigoal for April 18, 2001 166 goal for the year 2007

Response:

Welcome to the group. Sue melb aust 115/112/76 (kilos) afdc = 106

Response:

Hi Deb! Welcome to the group, participation is much appreciated and expected! Rocki or Joanie will post a nice list of tips for you. I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years.

I’m so glad you wrote this. It seems you have a realistic plan for achieving your goal. If you had written you want to reach your goal in the next six months, we would have a problem. Mia — I was 220lb (100kg), I am 197lb (89,5kg) Last week’s loss/total loss +1/23lb (+0,5/10,5kg) 152lb (69kg) = goal for Summer (which Summer?) A Finn in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

Response:

Welcome , Deb……  :o) —  ~ Missy ~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, My name is Debbie and I just found this group, I am looking forward to being a participant here as I am a fellow Weight Watcher member. I joined Weight Watchers on December 30, 2000.  My starting weight was 319.4 and I am currently at 300.2.  I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years. I am inspired by the stories I have read that have been posted here. Thanks for having such a great group around. Deb 319.4/300.2/150

Response:

WElcome Deb!  Great to "see" you. Jen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, My name is Debbie and I just found this group, I am looking forward to being a participant here as I am a fellow Weight Watcher member. I joined Weight Watchers on December 30, 2000.  My starting weight was 319.4 and I am currently at 300.2.  I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years. I am inspired by the stories I have read that have been posted here. Thanks for having such a great group around. Deb 319.4/300.2/150

Response:

Hello, My name is Debbie and I just found this group, I am looking forward to being a participant here as I am a fellow Weight Watcher member. I joined Weight Watchers on December 30, 2000.  My starting weight was 319.4 and I am currently at 300.2.  I have a long term goal of 150.  I hope to realize this goal in the next two years. I am inspired by the stories I have read that have been posted here. Thanks for having such a great group around. Deb 319.4/300.2/150

Response:

Hello All, I’m very glad to have found this support group.  Just started on WW123 this week.  I know that there is a new plan out there, but we bought this WW123 a while ago…and we’re only now seriously trying it. The "we" is my wife and I, it’s great having a partner in this endeavor.  I’m sure I’ll lean on her…figuratively, of course.  Until I lose this weight, *actually* leaning on her would probably be crippling. This is the first time I’ve tried to change my eating habits, instead of simply going on a diet.  I truly appreciate the difference. Last night, I thought I was hungry after dinner, so I ate a couple of radishes…but, even after my belly was full…I wanted something more. That’s when I realized that my "hunger" was nothing more than a craving for something fatty…creamy…sweet…mmmm….sorry.  As I was saying, it was simply a craving.  That should have been obvious to me, but I never really made the connection in my head.  Now, that I have, I feel like I have an advantage. I’m a firm believer in being in control of my own mind.  I am confident that I will succeed this time out. HY 231/231/200

Response:

Hi, HY! Welcome and congratulations on your new way of eating. Yes, you can do this! I agree — it’s a wonderful feeling to be in control. I still slip up occasionally, but it’s great to know I really can do this long-term and get healthy. I hope you and your wife enjoy the WW program and I look forward to hearing more from you. This is a very friendly place to hang out! Connie 282/201/140 "No more ugly duckling … I give myself permission to become a swan." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All, I’m very glad to have found this support group.  Just started on WW123 this week.  I know that there is a new plan out there, but we bought this WW123 a while ago…and we’re only now seriously trying it. The "we" is my wife and I, it’s great having a partner in this endeavor.  I’m sure I’ll lean on her…figuratively, of course.  Until I lose this weight, *actually* leaning on her would probably be crippling. This is the first time I’ve tried to change my eating habits, instead of simply going on a diet.  I truly appreciate the difference. Last night, I thought I was hungry after dinner, so I ate a couple of radishes…but, even after my belly was full…I wanted something more. That’s when I realized that my "hunger" was nothing more than a craving for something fatty…creamy…sweet…mmmm….sorry.  As I was saying, it was simply a craving.  That should have been obvious to me, but I never really made the connection in my head.  Now, that I have, I feel like I have an advantage. I’m a firm believer in being in control of my own mind.  I am confident that I will succeed this time out. HY 231/231/200

Response:

Hello HY, and welcome to our lovely newsgroup.  In fact – welcome both of you  Pop by and check out our welcome notice at http://www.geocities.com/welcomenotice/index.html – that should help You are in Control and you can Succeed – just you wait and see — krys UK 157/120/126 Started March 1st 2001 GOAL August 16th 2001 http://community.webshots.com/user/krystrot

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All, I’m very glad to have found this support group.  Just started on WW123 this week.  I know that there is a new plan out there, but we bought this WW123 a while ago…and we’re only now seriously trying it. The "we" is my wife and I, it’s great having a partner in this endeavor.  I’m sure I’ll lean on her…figuratively, of course.  Until I lose this weight, *actually* leaning on her would probably be crippling. This is the first time I’ve tried to change my eating habits, instead of simply going on a diet.  I truly appreciate the difference. Last night, I thought I was hungry after dinner, so I ate a couple of radishes…but, even after my belly was full…I wanted something more. That’s when I realized that my "hunger" was nothing more than a craving for something fatty…creamy…sweet…mmmm….sorry.  As I was saying, it was simply a craving.  That should have been obvious to me, but I never really made the connection in my head.  Now, that I have, I feel like I have an advantage. I’m a firm believer in being in control of my own mind.  I am confident that I will succeed this time out. HY 231/231/200

Response:

Hi, HY! Welcome and congratulations on your new way of eating. Yes, you can do this! I agree — it’s a wonderful feeling to be in control. I still slip up occasionally, but it’s great to know I really can do this long-term and get healthy. I hope you and your wife enjoy the WW program and I look forward to hearing more from you. This is a very friendly place to hang out! Connie 282/201/140 "No more ugly duckling … I give myself permission to become a swan."

Thank you for the warm welcome, Connie. I’ve already perused some threads and read most of the FAQ, y’all seem pretty friendly. My wife and I are very eager to change our eating habits.  Sure, we want the health benefits.  But, another important factor is that we would like to start a family.  And I don’t want to pass on my bad eating habits to the kids. We thought we were on Week 1, but realized that we’re really on Week 0.  When doing our foodplan, I just kinda glossed over the books. Thought about what I wanted to eat and then added up the points.  No real planning.  No regard to proteins vs carbs vs fats. I don’t think that’s gonna work. So, this is the end of Week 0, a pre-flight, if you will. Next week, I’ll begin the plan in earnest.   HY 231/231/200(180)

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My wife and I are very eager to change our eating habits.  Sure, we want the health benefits.  But, another important factor is that we would like to start a family.  And I don’t want to pass on my bad eating habits to the kids.

That’s an excellent motivation to help you keep eating right and exercising! You really have the right attitude that it’s a lifestyle change — and just think, the benefits of the changes you are making now are going to last into the next generation. Connie 282/201/140 "No more ugly duckling … I give myself permission to become a swan."

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I’m usually on the 22, skytrain or 99b — ~~Joanie~~ From Vancouver BC Canada! 221.5/219.8/218.8 (minigoal) <–one steeekin pound at a time!! Christmas goal  199.5   YEAH BABY YEAH! eventual goal  ~150 ish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Way to go!! Thank you for your contribution to cleaner air, a liveable city and my salary. I’ll see you on the bus some day (my current routes include #43, #98 B line, #407 [if I can find one] #402 and #403 for a good long walk as well) — Stephen Rees Richmond BC, Canada to reply by email take off yer boots 204.8/175/164 I can honestly say, at age 43 I have NEVER in my life gotten a speeding ticket… ok… wait for it… ….its’s worth it… bada bing bada boom….. but then I don’t have a drivers licence. I’ve never had one.. I use the 32 seat limo to get everywhere. — ~~Joanie~~ From Vancouver BC Canada! 221.5/219.8/218.8 (minigoal) <–one steeekin pound at a time!! Christmas goal  199.5   YEAH BABY YEAH! eventual goal  ~150 ish And even boring old ****s like me have speeding tickets! Yes, we all get caught sooner or later.

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If that area is not marked with a speed limit, is there any way you and the others can fight this ticket in court? — ~~Joanie~~ From Vancouver BC Canada! 221.5/219.8/218.8 (minigoal) <–one steeekin pound at a time!! Christmas goal  199.5   YEAH BABY YEAH! eventual goal  ~150 ish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *sigh* thanks Val – I feel a bit brighter today – thanks so much ) The weight can wait !!! LOL – my concern is more the speeding ticket and I have worked all day today so couldn;t go back to the road to check the signs but I will tomorrow. However to appeal it –  however I do it –  will involve going to court and I simply can’t cope with that. My BIL is a lorry driver and knows the roads well and he says that if there are no signs it is assumed that everywhere is 30 mph – this will teach me to not keep up to date with my highway code – BUT my argument is the size of the road. Just around the corner here is a large hill which is 40 mph – which is half the size of the road I was stopped and my local road is built up and has houses either side  - the policeman (grr) said where I was stopped was a built up area and was 30 mph. It is a huge road – no houses either side – almost as big as a duel carriageway as we say here. Now if I go down there tomorrow and see a sign – I have no argument but if there is no sign I will think seriously about contesting it. I just feel so sad. I am a careful driver. I have driven for 20 years and when you see some of the speeds and dangerous driving around it just makes me cry. I feel like a criminal. I know I’m going a bit over the top with this and at the end of the day it is only a speeding ticket and if it was just a fine I wouldn’t care so much – but it is the points on my licence for 4 years !!! 4 years for gods sake. It has made me very nervous today. I was jerky and panicky driving. Those police were completely concealed. Neither me or my sister saw them until we were on them. Those bloody guns can sensor for a long way. — ~ ~   Rocki   ~ ~   S. Devon, UK. 219/158.5/156 mini goal #9 Total Lost : 60.5 lbs W.W.  Target 141 lbs  Christmas Goal : 146 lbs Final Target : 133 lbs – in my dreams I think !!!!! Hello Rocki I am so sorry to hear that you had such a bad day yesterday.  Life can be so unfair at times when it seems that the whole world is against us and nothing is real or right. First I want to mention your weight gain – as you are one of the first to point out – it is only one week’s slip – one week out of your life.  You don’t have to stay in that place.  You will move on and put it behind you. Never forget that you are a loser big time. Secondly –  to your speeding brush with the police.  OK it didn’t seem fair to me either if there were no obvious warnings about speed limit that you could see. Now there are logical steps you can take to see if you can get those points removed from your licence.  Write a well constructed, unemotional letters to the relevant authority pointing out your grievance re the lack of signs etc.  That is something positive you can do.  You never know what you can change if you don’t try.   End of lecture. — Which causes the most pain, the mistake or the criticism for the mistake? — If through some error yesterday was lost in grief, don’t lose today by keeping it in your memory. — Val . Sussex . UK Start weight Sept 17  2000 –  176/172/120 Christmas Goal  162 lbs Long term goal 105 lbs ICQ no 92361781 The biggest mistake in life, is the mistake you haven’t learnt from

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Hi Rocki and all thanks for the welcome.Weigh in tonight but also have to go to the dentist and thats one I dread cross your fingers for me.Good luck to all keep up the losing

Question:

BTW, I’ve spent a lot of time at anus.com and, apart from your vituperative (and curious) anti-Macintosh stance, I quite enjoy spending and hour or so there once or twice a week. But then, I don’t have to agree with everything Spengler says to enjoy and ponder his writings either.

kdfjdkjdk

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Hmm, the question "how much success" means more how well does it express whatever you wanted it to say. It doesn’t refer to the $$$ machine. Anus.com… well, thanks for reading. If people even think about the issues it raises, all is well – assuming their thinking portion is working…

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Hmm, the question "how much success" means more how well does it express whatever you wanted it to say. It doesn’t refer to the $$$ machine.

Using those criteria I suppose I’m quite successful as my music always expresses what I want to say. Anus.com… well, thanks for reading. If people even think about the issues it raises, all is well

Well, how could one NOT think about these writings. They’re thought PROVOKING. Provocation has always been a valid tool for writers astute enough to use it. It seems to be at the forefront of your arsenal.

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BTW, I’ve spent a lot of time at anus.com and, apart from your vituperative (and curious) anti-Macintosh stance, I quite enjoy spending and hour or so there once or twice a week. But then, I don’t have to agree with everything Spengler says to enjoy and ponder his writings either.

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Riffs alone don’t make the art. How much success have you had with your music?

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Riffs alone don’t make the art. How much success have you had with your music?

I was being facetious. And it depends on how you quantify "success." I first got into playing music (back in 1976) to obtain status, drugs and sex. At the time, I was quite successful by these criteria. Then I got into Extreme Metal and traded the status, drugs and sex for the acquisition of skill. I would consider that endeavor moderately successful, although it’s still an on-going process. My most recent arena of study has been TAAKE’s "Bjoergvin" release. After hundreds of listenings, I’m still discovering new ways of making the guitar speak.

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a couple jars of horseradish with that

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http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/thorshammer/maythehammersmashthecros… May the Hammer Smash The Cross May the hammer smash the cross, turn to pieces Jesus’ corpse… May the wrath of the folk drive the foreign prophets out. What is alien, what is wrong shall be banished or destroyed… From the mighty Heathen past

warriors’ spirits shall arise May their power and their pride bring the courage to our hearts. May the hatred deep inside now explode to this world…

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The past is alive…

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The past is alive…

And I thought it was the riffs. But I’m just a musician, so what do I know?

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Rip the sacred flesh Sodomize the holy asshole Drink the red blood of the mother of earth Masturbation on the dead body of christ The king of Jews is dead and so are the lies Vomit on the host of Heaven Masturbate on the throne of God Break the seals of angels Drink the sweet blood of Christ Taste the flesh of the priest Sodomize holy nuns The king of Jews is a liar The Heavens will burn Dethrone the son of God God is dead Holyness is gone Purity is gone Prayers are burned Covered in black shit Rape the holy ghost Unclean birth of Jesus Christ Heaven will fall Fuck the church Fuck Christ Fuck the Virgin Fuck the gods of Heaven Fuck the name of Jesus

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Question:

is the price high as hell? per holy one?

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yes! 2 cans please!

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Rip the sacred flesh Sodomize the holy asshole Drink the red blood of the mother of earth Masturbation on the dead body of christ The king of Jews is dead and so are the lies Vomit on the host of Heaven Masturbate on the throne of God Break the seals of angels Drink the sweet blood of Christ Taste the flesh of the priest Sodomize holy nuns The king of Jews is a liar The Heavens will burn Dethrone the son of God God is dead Holyness is gone Purity is gone Prayers are burned Covered in black shit Rape the holy ghost Unclean birth of Jesus Christ Heaven will fall Fuck the church Fuck Christ Fuck the Virgin Fuck the gods of Heaven Fuck the name of Jesus

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is that means no?

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ONLY BLASPHEMOUS HORSERADISH IST TRUE

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can i have something for free?

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seriously you got any freebies?

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HORSERADISH?

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[ Feature ] On the Reformation of Metallic Art and Cultural Ideals by Jordan "The question now is ‘Where do we go from here?’ There seems to be no obvious answer, no new movement waiting in the wings to boost the flagging creative fortunes of metal. However, I believe the seeds have been planted for the next revolution in metal, but it will take courage and dedication to for these seeds to bear fruit, for the seeds were planted primarily by Burzum and Graveland, and the fruit they will bear is metal that becomes self-consciously the music of collective identity. But where identity was merely one aspect of the art of Burzum and Graveland, it must be the defining reality of the next movement. We must understand that metal is wholly the product of Indo-European civilization, and embrace that fact. Metal must look once more to the classical tradition, to the example of Wagner and Sibelius, and a new music must be crafted whose central focus is upon shared identity, tradition and mythology. The dead hand of populist moralism with its guilt-laden objections to ‘racism’ must be cast off and the principles of identity, hierarchy and elitism affirmed without shame or compromise. Otherwise, we may very well be witnessing the death of metal." – Mornelithe Falconsbane, Metal, Race, and the Art of Identity I. Dissection The question of how to advance metal’s artistic horizons has become intricately connected to issues of culture and identity, and by extension the ultimate taboo of ethnicity and racism. The most recent and significant metallic movements-death metal and black metal-have sought to craft an _expression of European romanticism in the modern age, deriving central values and ideals from the pre-Judeo-Christian ideologies of Pagan Europe. The modern metalhead finds himself torn between two distinct camps: those who feel that metal must be transformed into a cultural _expression of Eurocentric ideals, and those who contend that the entire concept of ideology, race, and culture are wholly irrelevant to metallic pursuits. From this author’s understanding, the assertion of complete and total

disconnection between metal and European ideals seems wholly invalid; it is obvious that metal has at the very least a superficial link to European culture, as can be seen even in the proto-metal of Led Zeppelin and their flirtations with Norse mythology. Yet the issue is complicated by the fact that, historically speaking, metal is not the product of exclusively Indo-European civilization. Metal has always been something of a bastard child, a synthesis of traditional values and European musical structure with African-American rhythmic sensibilities and rock n’ roll instrumentation. Heavy metal pioneers Black Sabbath emerged out of the electric blues scene that a young Eric Clapton and undeveloped Led Zeppelin fronted in the early seventies. The inherent ties to blues and, by extension, African-American cultural tradition cannot be denied without a hefty amount of unfounded historical revision. That said, the reason that Black Sabbath can be classified as heavy metal and Led Zeppelin cannot is largely due to the efforts of the former to distance itself from the blues-based electric rock of the era. It can be confidently held that metal should be defined primarily by its desire to break away from the cultural miscegenation that gave it birth. Each successive generation has taken greater and greater steps towards advancing metal in the direction of a "new classical music" based entirely upon European experience, values, and compositional tradition. The question becomes: If the goal of metal’s artistic progress appears to be the recreation of traditional western art music, why not simply forget about electric guitars and compose romantic epics for a legitimate symphony orchestra? The answer lies in metal’s deep structure-its fundamental, driving ideological components. Metal is simultaneously a product of the modern age and a rebellion against it. Metal turns to the past in order to gain insight into how culture might be centered less on democratic moralism and rampant monetarism, and more on a heroic, pagan ideal of individual will and the triumph of the strong. Metallic culture however, unlike the ancient world from which it draws its inspiration, is not pre-moral: it is post-moral. As such, a simple and direct revival of old-world values cannot function because such a construct can only lead to further stagnation and a denial of cultural knowledge that we have acquired during the last century. Such is the central metallic paradox. We must march ever forward towards a new artistic future even as we gaze towards the past in an effort to subvert the insanity of modernity by preserving cultural tradition and rejuvenating ancient values. The past must not simply be revived, but reinterpreted. In order to create something of true cultural worth, the values of our ancestors must be combined with the concerns and sensibilities of our modern selves to form a distinct and relevant contemporary synthesis. Ultimately the central focus in metal is not on the literal value sets of the ancient world per se (although this is certainly an important component). The driving element is the yearning itself, the raw experience of the realization that we wish we were born several centuries earlier, living in a different time, surrounded by a different world. Metal is not the articulation of historically accurate cultural revivalism-if this were the case, metal would have been assimilated into neo-folk movements-rather it is the first person narrative of the contemporary romantic, longing to travel to a distant existence where honor, courage, heroism, and naturalist ideals reign supreme. It is from this central concern that metal derives its vehement nihilism, its obsession with trans-valuated darkness and the tragedy of the human condition. This ideal finds _expression in metal’s violently simple instrumentation and abrasive sonic construction, in which grand poetry and epic statements are built out of minimalist elements that speak simultaneously to the profound pain of existence as well as the cosmic beauty inherent in our suffering. These elements are the products of contemporary experience, and it is for this reason that there is worth in developing metal as a distinct and unique art form, drawing on European musical/ideological tradition, but ultimately retaining an identity rooted in the 21st century. And so it seems that columnist M. Falconsbane is entirely correct in his assertion that metal must be recognized as a European art form and advance along suitable cultural paths. Despite the fact that metal has emerged historically from a counterculture centered around blues and rock, the metallic ethos must be carried to its logical conclusion and become the music of a pan-European "collective identity." Metal must truly take the next step in its evolution and purge itself of foreign cultural influence, lest it succumb to a dysgenic deterioration wrought by novelty-oriented hybridization and a prioritization of aesthetic over ideology. II. Reformation This author proposes four compositional reforms that could bring about change coherently, if not swiftly: 1. Eliminate exaggerated emphasis on rhythm as derived from Afro-centric musical influence, including the use of backbeats, rock n’ roll based metronomic time keeping, and incessant polyrhythm; return percussion to the primary role of accentuation that it served in European orchestral composition. Also study the use of rhythm in European folk traditions and incorporate where appropriate. 2. De-emphasize metal’s historical obsession with live performance/technical virtuosity and focus on the creation of carefully controlled artistic products in the form of contemporary recordings. Utilize studio techniques to introduce greater dynamic variation and textural depth into metal’s sonic construction. 3. Approach composition using a conceptual, motivic foundation in the tradition of Wagner, centered around the gradual evolution and development of primary themes and leitmotivs rather than simple AB coda structures and blues derived repetition of riffs and melodic fragments. 4. Compose central conceptual material and librettos from European mythology, archetypal constructs relating to the heroic ideal, and folk narrative. Create original works understanding that a balance between adherence to tradition and contemporary reinterpretation is the only way to advance metal ideologically. Although four separate points are listed for the sake of convenience and clarity, we should really consider these reforms as existing within two overarching conceptual groups: points one and two speak towards a change in metal’s musical aesthetic, whereas points three and four speak towards a change in metal’s conceptual framework and compositional approach. Each of these two groups and their respective components will be taken in turn and discussed in some detail in order to elaborate on the potential implications of these suggested reforms. II A. Musical Aesthetic-Rhythm By eliminating or lessening the metronomic rigidity of metal’s rhythmic foundation and replacing it with more involved and subtle percussive accentuation, an organic aesthetic can be achieved that would be impossible to realize with conventional drumming technique. Fluidity of motion and a greater level of expressive articulation are essential if metal is to truly distance itself from the dance oriented "four-to-the-floor" rhythms of popular music and hark to the romantic lyricism of 19th century symphonic works. Many will no doubt revile at this suggestion on the grounds that metal’s relentless rhythmic drive is one of the genre’s most direct expressions of violence and nihilism. While this concern is certainly legitimate, I would assert that a general sensibility of aggression can be preserved by carefully manipulating other … read more »

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Question:

Today it has been confirmed to me that Jesus Christ is not the son of God. Before i became unwell i always thought of God alone when praying or thinking about religious issues. But since getting ill it was jesus this, jesus that. I saw message boards all over the place, one was YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN which was something Jesus preached saying you must be born again IN SPIRIT. Many nights i was in bed trying to be born again in spirit. Well what a relief i don’t have to believe in it all anymore but i am considering reading a good quality copy of the quaran. Afterall the satanic verses (which referred to the quran) were written and published in the MOST sinful countries, debunking the Major religious documents of the MOST religious countries. You Know what, i no longer feel as schizophrenic as i did yesterday. http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/qb005.htm The link above will SHOW YOU EVIDENCE that the bible is completely flawed, maybe you are a christian shocked by what i am saying, if so, go get your bible and then click on the link to see with your own two eyes.

Response:

Jamie, It’s not just the abusive telepathy that is a problem. There is also something internally wrong with them, something not so obvious or even scientific.

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Question:

Ever her of a mother *breaking water* just before giving birth ?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At this the chief seemed utterly oppressed; but suddenly he somehow sensed the deficiency, for, lifting up tearful eyes, he cried out, "Here, Lord, take this poor Indian too!"  That is the only condition for fellowship with Christ. That is an interesting fable, but a lie from the false church. The condition for fellowship with Christ is to obey His Acts 2:38 salvation to become a Christian. That is your fable!  Acts 2:38 is for baptism of the believer, not to make them a Christian.  They believed, they repented, their heart was touched by the Spirit all before they were Baptized, Heretic.  Jesus said in Mark, He that believeth and is baptized, not he that is baptized will believe or gets salvation.  One needs to confess, repent, believe, have faith, trust, ask for forgiveness and then is baptized for the remission of their sins, you old Heretic.  The Blood of Jesus saves and takes away cleans sin, not a baptism in water. Jesus said, John 15:3 "Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken to you."  But He was also inspirational towards ourselves picking out the logs in our own eyes.  And He began His ministry calling us to repent.  And He baptized in water.  Jesus Himself was baptized.  So who are you to reject water?  What _teacher_ before you ever has? Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."   This command is in keeping with the practices of His ministry, and it is not a hard thing to do.  It means something.  For Jesus it is when the Holy Spirit descended, and God spoke… Mat 3:16-17  And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him; and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Peter wrote, 1 Peter 3:21  "…which figure now also saves us, baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ;…" John wrote, 1 John 5:6  "This is He who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water only, but by the water and blood. And the Spirit is He who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."   I write this one for Steve’s sake, for I think that was John’s intent.  But if we hear the word "blood" so often then do our ears not tire of hearing?  By the Gospel, are we not forced to reject your words "blood (alone)" ?  And in so doing, does this not do harm?  Is the harm not your cause and not ours? –Mike Then you are the perfect example that water only even in Jesus name The thorny Steve Winter a ‘perfect example’? doesn’t work if one has not repented and is a believer in Jesus Christ.  Your terms and ungodly terms, shows how sinful you are, and no amount of Water is going to make you clean.  Only faith in the Blood can remove sin, 1 John 1:7-9 I really think you should consider your use of the word ‘only’.  I’ve seen that word used, and rather often, by those who argue like you, when it is not so written in the Gospel. –Mike

Response:

Ever her of a mother *breaking water* just before giving birth ?

Where does the birth water come into the story? Given that baptism was the habit with his ministry, and that little was stated to defend it, then the inference is straightforward as to what was meant by water. They baptised, so I want to ask why, and if it were important.  I must accept this verse as an answer to that question.  Otherwise it would appear that I would be intentionally trying to deflect it. Baptism is an acknowledgement that we need a washing by God, for the logic isn’t such a mystery; (and as Peter wrote).  But we are to be different than we were before.  We aren’t the same individuals who now have access to a washing in His blood.  So baptism is part of the rebirth to newness. As for its defense, the clearest is that baptism of the Lord Himself. For it was then when the Father spoke, saying "This is my beloved Son…", and the Holy Spirit decended at that moment.  From this it is obvious that God, as Christ, takes baptism seriously.  And I must be concerned when others teach to ignore it. That baptism has been abused by some (so I’ve heard but not seen) is not a condemnation of baptism, or its requirement, but that of man. The answer Christ gave is, "of water, and of the Spirit."  By water is a step we can take simply.  But by the Spirit is by Christ’s will. Obedience to His commandments was the requirement unto which He would pray the Father that He send another Comforter.  (John 14:15-16, also verses 13-14)  That the Spirit decended upon Christ after His baptism is a confirmation that event was obedience to God.  (But we know his obedience was not completed then.) That baptism is even taught to be ignored is proof of how far the church has left the Gospel.  Though it does take some effort, baptism is not burdensome in itself; except that it is a step into faith.  Man instinctively wants to rebel at that, for they are not ‘in control’ afterwards.  Maybe some were dissappointed by their own baptism, and sought to condemn it, rather than seeking the Lord that He may complete it.  But the completion is His option, which does depend on our convictions, which are not without thoughts and actions.  Wait on the Lord, and don’t just wait.  And don’t accuse baptism for putting you in the position of waiting. –Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At this the chief seemed utterly oppressed; but suddenly he somehow sensed the deficiency, for, lifting up tearful eyes, he cried out, "Here, Lord, take this poor Indian too!"  That is the only condition for fellowship with Christ. That is an interesting fable, but a lie from the false church. The condition for fellowship with Christ is to obey His Acts 2:38 salvation to become a Christian. That is your fable!  Acts 2:38 is for baptism of the believer, not to make them a Christian.  They believed, they repented, their heart was touched by the Spirit all before they were Baptized, Heretic.  Jesus said in Mark, He that believeth and is baptized, not he that is baptized will believe or gets salvation.  One needs to confess, repent, believe, have faith, trust, ask for forgiveness and then is baptized for the remission of their sins, you old Heretic.  The Blood of Jesus saves and takes away cleans sin, not a baptism in water. Jesus said, John 15:3 "Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken to you."  But He was also inspirational towards ourselves picking out the logs in our own eyes.  And He began His ministry calling us to repent.  And He baptized in water.  Jesus Himself was baptized.  So who are you to reject water?  What _teacher_ before you ever has? Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."   This command is in keeping with the practices of His ministry, and it is not a hard thing to do.  It means something.  For Jesus it is when the Holy Spirit descended, and God spoke… Mat 3:16-17  And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him; and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Peter wrote, 1 Peter 3:21  "…which figure now also saves us, baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ;…" John wrote, 1 John 5:6  "This is He who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water only, but by the water and blood. And the Spirit is He who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."   I write this one for Steve’s sake, for I think that was John’s intent.  But if we hear the word "blood" so often then do our ears not tire of hearing?  By the Gospel, are we not forced to reject your words "blood (alone)" ?  And in so doing, does this not do harm?  Is the harm not your cause and not ours? –Mike Then you are the perfect example that water only even in Jesus name The thorny Steve Winter a ‘perfect example’? doesn’t work if one has not repented and is a believer in Jesus Christ.  Your terms and ungodly terms, shows how sinful you are, and no amount of Water is going to make you clean.  Only faith in the Blood can remove sin, 1 John 1:7-9 I really think you should consider your use of the word ‘only’.  I’ve seen that word used, and rather often, by those who argue like you, when it is not so written in the Gospel. –Mike

Response:

Ever her of a mother *breaking water* just before giving birth ?

You false-christian scum really think that just "explains away" baptism?   Babies are not born "of water", maybe fish are. I hope to herein expose one of the filthiest lies that false preachers are teaching these days.  If I seem emotional, it’s just that I hate to see people so deceived. In John 3:5, Jesus told a full grown man that he needed to be born again of a spiritual birth which consisted of water and spirit…(notice two distinct elements WATER and SPIRIT).. Satan has many misinformed, and some knowingly deceiving false preachers that teach that the "birth of the water" refers to a man’s physical birth (since there is a watery fluid involved at birth).  That teaching is one of the cheapest, cop out, deceptions in Satan’s arsenal to deceive people about the IMPORTANCE of baptism. John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. * Notice that Jesus was declaring what a MAN had to do (not a baby), and that Jesus was referring to a RE-BIRTH; being BORN AGAIN.  He could not have been referring to the fluids of a baby’s birth.  HE was telling a grown MAN how to be BORN AGAIN. Oh, it sounds real convincing to look at it as "physical birth", unless you consider that he was talking to a MAN, a grown MAN telling him how to be RE-BORN (spiritually).  And if that isn’t enough to convince you, then just look at how WATER and SPIRIT are BOTH elements in the plan of salvation that was preached at the birth of the church: Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. * Baptism is what washes away sins!!! Look at this next verse: * Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Then, if you are still not convinced let’s look at another verse that Jesus spoke (and I certainly pray that you will not suggest that a non-believer would even consider baptism). Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Look how the same God that said Water was part of the RE-BIRTH also declared "and is baptized"  How could the Bible be any clearer? Remember! Jesus was talking to a GROWN MAN telling him about a RE-BIRTH, and as a matter of fact babies are born IN water NOT ‘OF’ Water.. DON’T BE DECEIVED into a comfortable disobedience of the Bible by these Satanic false-christian dirt! Pastor sTeve Winter   — Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio) Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip To you, ALL CHRISTIANS are "fales-christian dirt."  You are no more qualified to be a pastor than satan himself is. in the Name of Jesus Christ,] Christian First Christian you see you fell for this guys fake follow-up game that he has played for years. Second of course he thinks all those who do not think like him are false Christian scum, that is actually quite Christian, from an historic perspective. I have often wondered how much blood has been spilled in the name of Jesus. Of course I understand that has no meaning at all but I find it rather sad. Which of course also has no meaning. PS I forgot to add, mercy is for the weak and weakness will never be tolerated. I have always wondered why they only people loved by Jesus are those who do not need him ? Oh for the good pastor yes scum, false christian scum anon christian scum etc.

WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU BABBLING ABOUT, BRIAN? YOU NEED TO SLACK UP ON YOUR POSTS, YOUR JUST CONFUSING YOURSELF. GOODBYE, FOR NOW, CUB_BRAVE P.S. NO OFFENSE, RIGHT BRIAN?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip To you, ALL CHRISTIANS are "fales-christian dirt."  You are no more qualified to be a pastor than satan himself is. in the Name of Jesus Christ,] Christian First Christian you see you fell for this guys fake follow-up game that he has played for years. Second of course he thinks all those who do not think like him are false Christian scum, that is actually quite Christian, from an historic perspective. I have often wondered how much blood has been spilled in the name of Jesus. Of course I understand that has no meaning at all but I find it rather sad. Which of course also has no meaning. PS I forgot to add, mercy is for the weak and weakness will never be tolerated. I have always wondered why they only people loved by Jesus are those who do not need him ? Oh for the good pastor yes scum, false christian scum anon christian scum etc. WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU BABBLING ABOUT, BRIAN? YOU NEED TO SLACK UP ON YOUR POSTS, YOUR JUST CONFUSING YOURSELF. GOODBYE, FOR NOW, CUB_BRAVE

ok cub I could go on, but your posts look the same way. P.S. NO OFFENSE, RIGHT BRIAN?

IM not offended, I take it you care, you are also entitled to your opinion, as am i? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip To you, ALL CHRISTIANS are "fales-christian dirt."  You are no more qualified to be a pastor than satan himself is. in the Name of Jesus Christ,] Christian First Christian you see you fell for this guys fake follow-up game that he has played for years. Second of course he thinks all those who do not think like him are false Christian scum, that is actually quite Christian, from an historic perspective. I have often wondered how much blood has been spilled in the name of Jesus. Of course I understand that has no meaning at all but I find it rather sad. Which of course also has no meaning.

PS I forgot to add, mercy is for the weak and weakness will never be tolerated. I have always wondered why they only people loved by Jesus are those who do not need him ? Oh for the good pastor yes scum, false christian scum anon christian scum etc.

Response:

snip To you, ALL CHRISTIANS are "fales-christian dirt."  You are no more qualified to be a pastor than satan himself is. in the Name of Jesus Christ,] Christian

First Christian you see you fell for this guys fake follow-up game that he has played for years. Second of course he thinks all those who do not think like him are false Christian scum, that is actually quite Christian, from an historic perspective. I have often wondered how much blood has been spilled in the name of Jesus. Of course I understand that has no meaning at all but I find it rather sad. Which of course also has no meaning.

Response:

[trim] Jesus said, John 15:3 "Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken to you."  But He was also inspirational towards ourselves picking out the logs in our own eyes.  And He began His ministry calling us to repent.  And He baptized in water.  Jesus Himself was baptized.  So who are you to reject water?  What _teacher_ before you ever has? To start with, you qouted "clean through the Word which I have spoken" there is no water in this, but the Word.  Faith in the Word. Then it baptism is important, but it is not the blood and it does not save by itself.  Did Jesus have sin?  I think not so water baptism did not forgive his sin’s as he had none.  I never rejected water, or baptism in water, only obeject when people try to make the water take the place of the Blood of Jesus, and so His death and Cross.  Which would of been a waste, since they had water baptism before the Cross.

No, I think you reject water.  For nobody is trying to use water to take the place of Christ’s shed blood.  And, physically speaking, that blood is not here, nor was anyone physically washed in it, so I can’t see your argument.  As for how we deal with His Blood physically, it is by taking the Lord’s Supper. Again, Christ said the words below.  And please re-read my comments beneath the quote. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."    This command is in keeping with the practices of His ministry, and it is not a hard thing to do.  It means something.  For Jesus it is when the Holy Spirit descended, and God spoke… Mat 3:16-17  And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him; and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Peter wrote, 1 Peter 3:21  "…which figure now also saves us, baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ;…" John wrote, 1 John 5:6  "This is He who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water only, but by the water and blood. And the Spirit is He who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."    I write this one for Steve’s sake, for I think that was John’s intent.  But if we hear the word "blood" so often then do our ears not tire of hearing?  By the Gospel, are we not forced to reject your words "blood (alone)" ?  And in so doing, does this not do harm?  Is the harm not your cause and not ours? Then you are the perfect example that water only even in Jesus name The thorny Steve Winter a ‘perfect example’? Yes of one that trust in water and what a preacher does, by putting one into the water, which with out the blood is a wet sinner, in and a wet sinner out of the water.

The problem with Winter is Winter. AND that so many reject baptism outright.  So he thinks he’s got an argument he can’t lose.  You are, in effect, using (or allowing) Winter to curse water, and it suits your theology. The blood and faith in the Blood and the action of Christ Jesus on the Cross is what brings a person to the blood and salvation,

I believe it is a penitent heart and obediance that bring a person to salvation.  These are out of an active faith. May I suggest that you do a word search in the gospels to see what Christ said about His blood, and temper your theology around His words.  And other words concerning other matters also. then they like on the day of Pentecost will ask what must we do, and then they are baptized because they did believe in the Son of God, Jesus.  Baptism does not make a believer it is for them that believed, as in Mark, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved….  Hope that clears things up.

No. Raymond doesn’t work if one has not repented and is a believer in Jesus Christ.  Your terms and ungodly terms, shows how sinful you are, and no amount of Water is going to make you clean.  Only faith in the Blood can remove sin, 1 John 1:7-9

Again, I repeat…  I really think you should consider your use of the word ‘only’.  I’ve  seen that word used, and rather often, by those who argue like you,  when it is not so written in the Gospel. I think many Protestants are proud of their ‘Solas’.  ’Only’ Grace (no merit), ‘only’ Faith (not works), ‘only’ Scripture (not traditions). When scripture, except for PAUL ALONE, is not so definitive.  Paul was too definitive, he even got it wrong. Christ never taught grace.  Did you know that?  And Christ has His thoughts on work.  Are you even aware of them?  Did you know that in Matt 20:1-16 Christ taught heaven as payment for work?  Mat 20:1  "For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that was a householder, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard." This is a different approach than Paul’s. They worry me, those who spend so much time in blood, and want to spatter it around so.  Do you revel in the death?  Let us not gather around the cross like hounds to lap it up.  (I’m only trying to be practical, and not denying anything.)  I don’t think you have a grasp of what you are proclaiming, and it is doing damage. –Mike

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At this the chief seemed utterly oppressed; but suddenly he somehow sensed the deficiency, for, lifting up tearful eyes, he cried out, "Here, Lord, take this poor Indian too!"  That is the only condition for fellowship with Christ. That is an interesting fable, but a lie from the false church. The condition for fellowship with Christ is to obey His Acts 2:38 salvation to become a Christian. That is your fable!  Acts 2:38 is for baptism of the believer, not to make them a Christian.  They believed, they repented, their heart was touched by the Spirit all before they were Baptized, Heretic.  Jesus said in Mark, He that believeth and is baptized, not he that is baptized will believe or gets salvation.  One needs to confess, repent, believe, have faith, trust, ask for forgiveness and then is baptized for the remission of their sins, you old Heretic.  The Blood of Jesus saves and takes away cleans sin, not a baptism in water. Jesus said, John 15:3 "Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken to you."  But He was also inspirational towards ourselves picking out the logs in our own eyes.  And He began His ministry calling us to repent.  And He baptized in water.  Jesus Himself was baptized.  So who are you to reject water?  What _teacher_ before you ever has?

To start with, you qouted "clean through the Word which I have spoken" there is no water in this, but the Word.  Faith in the Word. Then it baptism is important, but it is not the blood and it does not save by itself.  Did Jesus have sin?  I think not so water baptism did not forgive his sin’s as he had none.  I never rejected water, or baptism in water, only obeject when people try to make the water take the place of the Blood of Jesus, and so His death and Cross.  Which would of been a waste, since they had water baptism before the Cross. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."    This command is in keeping with the practices of His ministry, and it is not a hard thing to do.  It means something.  For Jesus it is when the Holy Spirit descended, and God spoke… Mat 3:16-17  And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him; and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Peter wrote, 1 Peter 3:21  "…which figure now also saves us, baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ;…" John wrote, 1 John 5:6  "This is He who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water only, but by the water and blood. And the Spirit is He who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."    I write this one for Steve’s sake, for I think that was John’s intent.  But if we hear the word "blood" so often then do our ears not tire of hearing?  By the Gospel, are we not forced to reject your words "blood (alone)" ?  And in so doing, does this not do harm?  Is the harm not your cause and not ours? –Mike Then you are the perfect example that water only even in Jesus name The thorny Steve Winter a ‘perfect example’?

Yes of one that trust in water and what a preacher does, by putting one into the water, which with out the blood is a wet sinner, in and a wet sinner out of the water.  The blood and faith in the Blood and the action of Christ Jesus on the Cross is what brings a person to the blood and salvation, then they like on the day of Pentecost will ask what must we do, and then they are baptized because they did believe in the Son of God, Jesus.  Baptism does not make a believer it is for them that believed, as in Mark, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved….  Hope that clears things up. Raymond – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – doesn’t work if one has not repented and is a believer in Jesus Christ.  Your terms and ungodly terms, shows how sinful you are, and no amount of Water is going to make you clean.  Only faith in the Blood can remove sin, 1 John 1:7-9 I really think you should consider your use of the word ‘only’.  I’ve seen that word used, and rather often, by those who argue like you, when it is not so written in the Gospel. –Mike

Response:

     The problem is that Acts 2:38 isn’t the only verse in the Bible which deals with salvation.

When false-christian dirt reject Acts 2:38, it won’t matter what they do with the rest of the verses. A minister of Satan calling himself "Apostolic Man" while teaching disobedience to what the Apostles taught. Ever wonder why deceivers, and fake christians in general, single out Acts 2:38 as the verse that "need not be obeyed"?  It is because Acts 2:38 is the plan of salvation for the new testament church.  Notice that Jesus had personally given Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven: Matt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Let us also notice that when sinners were "pricked in their hearts" and asked Peter what they could do, that Peter unlocked the kingdom of heaven for "as many as the Lord our God shall call" Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 2:37  Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Acts 2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls. Notice, there were 3000 there that elected to have their sins remitted. So you better believe that the minister of Satan will do just about anything that he can to try to downplay Acts 2:38. Paul mentions that there will be those that come along and preach "another gospel." Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Paul also didn’t leave us in ignorance that when Satan’s ministers come, they come masquerading as "ministers of righteousness", as smooth talking false preachers saying "Just claim belief and you are saved." II Corinthians 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. II Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. II Corinthians 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. It is the job of the false preacher to cause YOU to be among those that don’t obey Acts 2:38. II Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, II Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Notice that there are TWO groups mentioned in verse 8, those that don’t know God, AND those that know him BUT REFUSE TO OBEY HIM. II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Water Baptism in Jesus name remits sins BECAUSE of Jesus finished work on the cross. It is the re-birth of water (see John 3:5). Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. The devil’s servants don’t want you to "put on Christ".  They want you to reject Jesus name baptism.  Is the man in the pulpit of your church just there to soothe you into hell?  Is your preacher stressing the URGENCY of obeying the Bible or is he/she/it selling a fable of a false grace that ignores obedience to the Bible. II Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. II Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; II Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Is your preacher preaching Acts 2:38, or soothing fables? Pastor sTeve Winter — Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio) Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That is your fable!  Acts 2:38 is for baptism of the believer, not to make them a Christian. Now do any of you Oneness brethren see why I rejected the false-christian scum Raymond Knapp as a fake? Read what the devil man Knapp has posted quoted above. Now this filthy deceiving scum Knapp has been masquerading as a "oneness missionary" for how long now? Any of you dimbulbs who threw away your honor, integrity and salvation to support reprobate Knapp feeling the least bit embarrassed yet?  If not, read the scum’s words above.  This SHOWS in his own words what he believes!

I’m proud to call Ray a brother in Christ. He has rejected your "Water Salvation" and is relying on Jesus as his saviour. We may disagree on the nature of God, but we both trust in Jesus only! (And I suspect we’ll both be very surprised at God’s true nature when we see him. The limited human mind is wholly incapable of truly understanding an unlimited God.) I encourage anyone who is unsure about Acts 2:38 to read http://www.av1611.org/jmelton/acts2.html and find out why this is Satan’s favourite bible verse. John 5:24

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nope.  You’re wrong again, Al.  Anyone who rejects Jesus as the Christ and rejects the Bible as God’s Word cannot possibly know the truth about God. One more time, Jim, because you seem to be, literally, thick as a brick: Hundreds of millions of people have lived and died without ever hearing about the being Jesus. If you want to believe that none of those people knew the truth about God, then you just go ahead. If you want to believe that God refuses to communicate with people because they were born before Jesus was, then you are an IDIOT.

Thought I would jump in hear for a second.  Alan you may be correct but assuddely Jim is correct.  let me explain. There is only one method to God and His salvation, that’s through Christ Jesus.  BUT! what about all those billions that never heard of Jesus, a very good question. The reason all men have a desire to seek God is because at one time all new God, through Adam.  This knowledge of God has been past from generation to generation until today.  Except our search for carnal knowledge has kept us in the most part, from finding god.  This is not God will for as we see in Cain and able that God desires all men to find a place where He can found.  These places are know a dispositions periods. The first was innocent and only Adam and Even truly knew this place. Some claim that we are all born into innocence except our search for knowledge prevents us from this place.  Next God gave all men a conscience to no good from evil.  When men no longer listen to reason and did what was evil in the site of God.  God sent laws and government that Evil may not prevail.  There are a few other Patriarch, tabernacle I think.  The last one and is present today Is salvation by Grace and only acceptable through Christ Jesus. The bible teaches that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. This means that all those other dispensation is acceptable to God, with reservation.  In other words if you fail in any where does your salvation stand.  For examples if my religion teaching that suicide bombing gets one 21 virgins in heaven.  Yet my consciences knows that it is wrong, you are condemned by your conscience.  If another religion states that this person is a lower cast then I. Yet the law of the land is that all are now equal, the law takes precedent. In other words if someone is taught a way that goes against any disposition laws from God.  That person is going against Gods commandment and can not inter Heaven Now for the mother Theresa and the Gandhi’s of the world.  For that matter you can make the same claim to most Christians both past and present.  It’s like the thief on the cross he got into heaven only because Mr 10:27        And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Of course in no way do I recomend coming before Christ judgment seat with a technicality.  Give me Acts 2:38, as the only way to God

Response:

You didn’t respond to one thing I said, Jim.

Ok, here it is for the record: a response. Poor Al.  Getting angry again?  Can’t understand why everyone can see right through you? Your whole campaign has been one of anger and hate.  And it’s always obvious to all — except for the few who share your anger and hatred. Rather than stand up for anything, you only stand against the truth of God.  You hate Christians, so you oppose them. Rather than say anything of value, you only oppose.  How can you expect to end up with accomplishments in your life if you’re always trying to destroy, always tearing down? A man who builds a chair gets to one day sit in that chair.  He can feel the strength he built into it.  He can enjoy his work for many years. A woman who makes a pie gets to eat some or all of the pie.  She gets to enjoy the flaky crust.  She savors the fruit or pudding filling. He hunger is satisfied.  And she is proud of her fine work. A town that builds a bridge gets to use the bridge.  They can talk in the tavern about all the hard work it was, and see it every day as they go back and forth.  They take joy in the fine structure and in its useful strength for generations to come.  The quarrymen are proud of it.  The masons are pleased with it.  The engineer is happy with it. But a man who only destroys and destroys and destroys, ends up only with ashes and scrap lumber and broken rocks.  A man who always plays with fire usually gets burned.  A man who never builds, never designs, never thinks through a great work, is left with just an empty head. He has nothing to show for his years and his efforts.  Wherever he goes he can only hope to produce another hole in the landscape, another pit in the ground, and more smoke and ashes. That’s where you are today, Al, as far as these groups are concerned. You produce nothing but opposition.  You attack and attack, but cannot stifle the joy of those who know the Lord. Newsflash: One does not obtain joy by trying to take it away from others.  One does not get faith by trying to stomp down the faith of others.  (The secret is in the giving, not in the robbing). A troll’s life just isn’t as rewarding as it promised to be, is it? Instead of fame and glamour, it’s more like running around with stinky, poopy pants.  No matter how you try to pretend, everyone can still smell what you just did in your britches. FREE ADVICE: Stop fighting. Offer encouragement and help to others.  Build good into the lives of those all around you.  Love your children, your spouse, your neighbors (even your in-laws).  Life is not about trying to control what people think, but about living and learning to love. You keep saying you know so much more about Jesus than Christians do. Well, try doing something to demonstrate it.  Did Jesus send you out to destroy? You cannot silence the gospel message — ever.  Even if all the believers who post here were all to shut up, as you’ve often demanded that we do, others will happily take our places.  All you get from beating your head against a stone wall is a bruised and bloody head. The wall is unchanged, unimpressed, unmoved. In fact, you actually draw attention to the gospel by your opposition — and that’s a good thing.  Is that your secret goal? If you really have something from God, then quit worrying about what others say and do.   Just share what you have.  You will never be able to control the world.  You cannot make other people be or do anything. Got a message?  Then post it.  Go ahead. Get out there and say your piece.  If you really think you know something, then share it.  Stop being a cowardly troll, always hiding under the bridge to attack those who go by.  You may have nothing better to do, but they have a life.  They have things to do and places to go. Only trolls rely on someone to attack, someone to oppose.  Get your own life. Become a man, Al, and do whatever it is you say you believe.  Take the energy you waste every day opposing Christians, and use it for real life.  Speak and act on what you keep saying you’ve received from God. Now, there it is.  I responded.  The rest is up to you, Buddy. Jim

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim? You lost this debate. You are clearly wrong. Saul isn’t confused at all. Anyone can read the thread and check out the links he provided. You can’t make the truth go away just because you don’t like it, Jim. You aren’t confused either. You are simply in denial. Your mind is closed. Which is not something that I would think came with being "born again" or "saved", which you claim to be. Judging from your posts, Jim, being "saved" or "born again" is not a very desirable thing. <etc. and so on Well, first of all, Al, there is no debate.  

yup. just you being wrong and me being right. oh yeah, then you being in denial by saying that the history books are wrong because they don’t agree with your narrow viewpoint of the world. I have only an interest in the truth.

you are in a sad state of denial. The elaborate and varied opinions of the brilliant and learned scholars afraid to taste the living water are not so meaningful as the simple testimony of the children who daily drink.  (Not to imply that your ignorance should be mistaken for intelligence or any real effort spent in discovery of truth, but simply to say that you don’t know because you can’t see, and you can’t see because you’ve not been born again.)

because the historians weren’t born again, their life work must be wrong. words, at this point, fail me. Saul

Response:

Here’s a great free study program from Campus Crusade—

You didn’t respond to one thing I said, Jim. That’s how ignorant bigots stay ignorant, Jim. They shut their ears and minds when unpleasant truths come their way. Jim? If you have the close relationship with God that you say you do, why doesn’t God shut me up and give you a congregation? "By their fruits ye shall know them." Have fun posting fundamentalist drivel that almost no one reads. I certainly can’t stomache more than a few lines. Neither could Jesus, who keeps trying to reach you, but the channels are clogged up by the dogma you obsess on. <snip And Jim? Shut up. I can make that happen from here, Jim. See? I can’t hear what you are saying at all. AC

Response:

We all naturally want to know the Truth. There’s no need for any special intervention from God to create this desire. I don’t need Scripture to make me want to know the Truth. Neither does anyone. There’s Truth in the Bible. And garbage. An anti-Truth. Nope.  You’re wrong again, Al.  Anyone who rejects Jesus as the Christ and rejects the Bible as God’s Word cannot possibly know the truth about God.

One more time, Jim, because you seem to be, literally, thick as a brick: Hundreds of millions of people have lived and died without ever hearing about the being Jesus. If you want to believe that none of those people knew the truth about God, then you just go ahead. If you want to believe that God refuses to communicate with people because they were born before Jesus was, then you are an IDIOT. And we will go ahead and believe that you are a fool and an ignorant fanatic. It is you, Jim, that don’t know the truth about God. I’m not sure you even have a clue. Jim? Shove your perverted religion, and stay away from the children I am responsible for. If I even suspect that you are trying to communicate with them I will hurt you.   Did I tell you that one of my sisters and her husband, a Minister, and their children, live just up the Hudson River from you? I’ve emailed him several of your posts, and he thinks you are a nutbag. <snip AC

Response:

We all naturally want to know the Truth. There’s no need for any special intervention from God to create this desire. I don’t need Scripture to make me want to know the Truth. Neither does anyone. There’s Truth in the Bible. And garbage. An anti-Truth.

Nope.  You’re wrong again, Al.  Anyone who rejects Jesus as the Christ and rejects the Bible as God’s Word cannot possibly know the truth about God.  (Not even if they claim to be an apostate, I mean, an apostle.) Jesus Christ is the truth and the Bible is a faithful record of God’s Word.  You have rejected the truth about Jesus and the Word of truth of God freely given in Scripture.  For that reason you’re still on your way to hell, Al.  To get right with God, you must turn around and accept Jesus as the one and only Savior of the world — and as your own Savior. Al went on to write– I can plainly see that you have *not* learned to empty your mind and look within (where Jesus says, most truly, that the ‘kingdom of heaven’ is) and just ‘listen’. It is not easy for most people, and takes a lot of practice.

Wrong again, Al.  The occult methods of the Far East and many false religions do not lead us to the truth of God.  The truth is not inside anyone who rejects Jesus as the Christ.  The Holy Spirit of God must be inside a person (by the new birth that Jesus talks about in John 3:1-12) before there will be any truth of God inside of us.  If you know about Jesus as you say you do, you should know that. But you reject as "dogma" the truth given to all people by God through Jesus Christ.  You turn your back on the Bible and turn, instead, to false documents that mean and say nothing that the world does not already accept and believe.  You fulfill the Word of God through Jeremiah, which says: "Be astonished, O heavens, at this, And be horribly afraid; Be very desolate," says the LORD. "For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, And hewn themselves cisterns — broken cisterns that can hold no water." (Jeremiah 2:12,13) That’s where you are today, Al.  Yet your religious nature compels you to hang around these Christian groups, trying to confuse and break down any truth that might be posted here. Speaking of which, I’m curious, Al.  Have you ever posted anything of your own?  All I remember seeing from you is your silly attacks on the things posted by other people.  That tendency in you is what inspired me to write the story about Ol’ Snuff.  Poor old Snuff never even tried to produce anything positive, but just snuck around in the shadows trying to burn and destroy anything good that others might do. See the story here: http://forum.mychristiannetwork.com/archive/index.php/t-8571.html Al also said (re: Jim’s last posted response) — You are getting preachy below, and I’ve heard it all before. Repeating garbage doesn’t make it anything else.

Too bad.  You missed the best part.   And actually, Al, you haven’t heard it all before.  Much of what you "missed" was posted for the first time.  But I’ve been noticing your pattern.  You tend to skip over any material that you know you can’t possibly answer — not that your answers make any sense most of the time, anyway. But that’s ok, Al.  You just keep on running from God and making your noise.  Do whatever you can while you still have life to spend on it. In fact, do your very, very, very best.  Go all out and try to stop the grace of God. The devil has tried to stop it for thousands of years, and he’s no closer now than on his very first day.  In fact, now that the cross is history, the fate of all lies and every evil thing is sealed.  The head of the serpent has already been crushed by the seed of the woman, as God said it would be in Genesis 3. All the best is yet to come — but it’s only "good" for those who trust in Jesus. Jim

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim? You lost this debate. You are clearly wrong.  Saul isn’t confused at all.  Anyone can read the thread and check out the links he provided.  You can’t make the truth go away just because you don’t like it, Jim.  You aren’t confused either. You are simply in denial. Your mind is closed.  Which is not something that I would think came with being "born again" or "saved", which you claim to be.  Judging from your posts, Jim, being "saved" or "born again" is not a very desirable thing. <etc. and so on Well, first of all, Al, there is no debate.

Yes there was. Pretending there wasn’t doesn’t change the fact that there was. I’m not concerned with winning or losing anything in this discussion.  I do not even entertain any fantasies of winning you or Saul over to my way of thinking.  People believe whatever they will choose to believe.  I have only an interest in the truth.  I would hope that’s what you and Saul also have.

That’s how it is with me. Truth cannot be determined by popular vote or debate.  It simply is.

True. And when it comes to truth about God, only God Himself can make any of us understand.

Yes. And God revealed to me that It isn’t a "He". It’s an "It", quite beyond personification. God isn’t a giant male human in another dimension.  We all make our own choices, and only God can change the heart so that it craves truth and righteousness.

We all naturally want to know the Truth. There’s no need for any special intervention from God to create this desire. What’s "righteousness"?  That’s a fact of life in every generation (and in every life) and a clear teaching of Scripture.

I don’t need Scripture to make me want to know the Truth. Neither does anyone. I know that God is true, and that what He reveals to us in the Bible is true.

There’s Truth in the Bible. And garbage. An anti-Truth. That’s the Big Mistake people like you make. You walk into a salted mine and find a few nuggets and think that it is the mother lode, but it’s mostly just worthless rock. God did not create the Bible. Neither did Jesus. Some *very* nasty people, the Pauline Christians did. I have put God’s Word to the test and it has proven itself true to me.

That’s what the Moslem fundamentalists say too. And the Jewish fundamentalists. And a lot of Christians that wouldn’t agree with you at all. There’s a reason why there are over 15,000 denominations of Christianity, Jim, because all these groups disagree about the real meaning of various parts of the Bible. Your own words, from above: People believe whatever they will choose to believe.  

As do you. I can plainly see that you have *not* learned to empty your mind and look within (where Jesus says, most truly, that the ‘kingdom of heaven’ is) and just ‘listen’. It is not easy for most people, and takes a lot of practice. You filter your spiritual experiences through dogma. Not good. You are getting preachy below, and I’ve heard it all before. Repeating garbage doesn’t make it anything else. Have a good one. <snip AC

Response:

Jim? You lost this debate. You are clearly wrong. Saul isn’t confused at all. Anyone can read the thread and check out the links he provided. You can’t make the truth go away just because you don’t like it, Jim. You aren’t confused either. You are simply in denial. Your mind is closed. Which is not something that I would think came with being "born again" or "saved", which you claim to be. Judging from your posts, Jim, being "saved" or "born again" is not a very desirable thing.

<etc. and so on Well, first of all, Al, there is no debate.   I’m not concerned with winning or losing anything in this discussion.  I do not even entertain any fantasies of winning you or Saul over to my way of thinking.  People believe whatever they will choose to believe.  I have only an interest in the truth.  I would hope that’s what you and Saul also have. Truth cannot be determined by popular vote or debate.  It simply is. And when it comes to truth about God, only God Himself can make any of us understand.  We all make our own choices, and only God can change the heart so that it craves truth and righteousness.  That’s a fact of life in every generation (and in every life) and a clear teaching of Scripture. I know that God is true, and that what He reveals to us in the Bible is true.  I have put God’s Word to the test and it has proven itself true to me.  I know of many, many others who’ve also put God to the test and have found Him to be true.  Ultimately, though, it does not matter what any man says or thinks.  It only matters what God says. So it does not matter at all to me what you think about me or about being born again. The elaborate and varied opinions of the brilliant and learned scholars afraid to taste the living water are not so meaningful as the simple testimony of the children who daily drink.  (Not to imply that your ignorance should be mistaken for intelligence or any real effort spent in discovery of truth, but simply to say that you don’t know because you can’t see, and you can’t see because you’ve not been born again.) Your kind is not so rare.  There are always those who will deny that there is a real truth, an absolute truth about God and righteousness, and sin and evil, and salvation and eternal life.  I can easily understand your ideas.  After all, I started out with the same kind of thinking.  I’ve gone from where you are, essentially, to where the Bible says that anyone can be in Christ.  I’ve come to know God through faith in Jesus Christ. Unlike you, I’ve made serious studies into church history.  Before that, I made serious inquiry into various religions and philosophies. And I don’t mean cruising the internet to see what some whacko will say about God or His people.  I mean an actual study of the history of the church, since New Testament times.  I know about Rome and its policies through the dark ages, about the popes, about the Reformation, and so on.  I am familiar with the church; it’s struggles, its life. But beyond study, I also know God on a personal level.  By God’s grace, I’ve come to know Him by faith in Jesus Christ.  I did not deserve to ever discover this new life.  I am a sinner.  I’ve blasphemed God and repeatedly rejected the grace offered me in Jesus Christ.  I rejected the gospel.  I rejected Jesus as any kind of Savior, as Lord, and as the Son of God.  I renounced the Christian faith, spurned the Bible, and mocked those who believe. There’s nothing that you have written about me that I didn’t also say about Christian believers — especially when they tried to help me see the error of my ways.  In my ignorance, I was false to God and false to other people — people I might have helped.  I was arrogant and angry, determined never to trust in Jesus Christ for anything. I would be that way right now, today, except for the grace of God. Unlike you, I’ve known and talked with quite a few real missionaries. Some of them I also knew when they were just kids, before they ever gave themselves over to God’s service.  I know their hard work and the sacrifices they made to go to foreign places.  I know the hardships they faced to be in remote places, far away from everyone who knows and loves them. I know the struggle it is for many of them to spend years learning difficult languages.  I know the struggles they have when trying to translate their faith and the message of Jesus Christ into languages and cultures that do not share many of the "basic" ideas and concepts we have of life or death or God or family or anything. I know the love they have for the people they hope to touch with the gospel.  I have lived among some of these missionaries on the field of service.  I have sat in huts and prayed with them and with the people.  I know what it is to give away your own food, your own dishes, and clothing, and money — and anything else you have — to people you’ve come to love, people of another land and culture, another language. And I know what it is to sit in that small hut and receive the last bit of food or coffee or tea — freely given by a stranger who knows nothing of the God you’ve come to talk about.  I know that God has a real passion and love for every human being on this planet.  And I know many other things about the grace of God, and the salvation of God, and power of God among the unreached — things I will never say to anyone else or post here. Anyone who knows Jesus Christ will know much of what I’m talking about here.  To know God is to have God’s Holy Spirit within.  Anyone with the Spirit of Christ knows that no Christian missionary will do anything to harm those they’re sent to reach. Even when witch doctors try to poison visiting missionaries (and they do try hard to get rid of them in such ways) the Christian believer does not retaliate.  Why?  Because Christians are too good to feel the desire for revenge?  No.  We feel the same things everyone else feels.  But we also know the power of God.  And many, many times God has powerfully saved and transformed the witch doctors or other enemies of the gospel — too many times for us to doubt that He will do it again. You and Saul have made your claims.  They are the claims made by the world system.  They are the claims made by Hollywood movies and TV shows, and even the popular "news" media.  Those same claims have been around since the days of Jesus, when the unbelievers called Him a drunk and a glutton, said He was demon-possessed, and even tried to accuse Him of leading a revolt against Rome. The unbelieving mind simply cannot get it.  They cannot see the power of God or understand His voice — because to understand means to believe and be changed.  And too many are simply unwilling to change. The world loves its sin, its political games, its darkened heart.  It even loves its misery too much to give it up.  So it will always jump on any false claim that seems to offer an escape from honest and saving faith.  After all, if you could prove the Bible wrong, then you’d never have to believe and obey God. You’ve made your claims, which history itself does not support.  You confuse political acts with Christian mission work, not caring at all that you distort and twist reality all out of perspective.  You blame Christian missionaries for the worthless treaties and lies and broken promises of the United States government.  You’ve made your claims, which ignore truth and the reality of God at work in human lives. But I have stated the truth. By all means, keep making your noise and talking about things you can never understand unless God opens your heart.  You are who you are. And what you are will dictate what you say and do.  By definition, an unbeliever fails to believe. But your unbelief cannot change what is true.   You cannot change the past, nor can you stop the future.  So I rest at peace. Jim

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – re: Jim’s comments– Saul, it sounds like you’re venting your political frustrations on Christ and His people again.  By now you must know that such talk only makes you sound foolish — not to mention ignorant of both American and church history. While it may very well be true that the USA government is guilty of real crimes against people that it sees as a threat to its own wishes and desires, it’s not true that Christian missionaries would rather kill than save those to whom they minister. but they have. i quote the crusades, the inquisitions, the salem witch trials, the aforementioned extermination of native american peoples, and the persecution, ostracizing, and burning of heretics as documented even as late as the victorian era. do they all? no. but actions speak louder than words for many of them. Well, I can see your confusion, Saul, and I do understand it.

Jim? You lost this debate. You are clearly wrong. Saul isn’t confused at all. Anyone can read the thread and check out the links he provided. You can’t make the truth go away just because you don’t like it, Jim. You aren’t confused either. You are simply in denial. Your mind is closed. Which is not something that I would think came with being "born again" or "saved", which you claim to be. Judging from your posts, Jim, being "saved" or "born again" is not a very desirable thing. Who in their right mind would want to be like _you_? Jesus had something to say about people like you: From Matthew: 7:15 Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheeps clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves. 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruit.  Grapes are not gathered from thorns or figs from thistles, are they 7:17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 7:18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree to bear good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 7:20 So then, you will recognize them by their fruit. Ignorance and bigotry are your fruits, Jim, hanging out here on your limbs for all to see. <snip Sorry. I really can’t bear to read any more of your pompous drivel this morning. AC

Response:

re: Jim’s comments– Saul, it sounds like you’re venting your political frustrations on Christ and His people again.  By now you must know that such talk only makes you sound foolish — not to mention ignorant of both American and church history. While it may very well be true that the USA government is guilty of real crimes against people that it sees as a threat to its own wishes and desires, it’s not true that Christian missionaries would rather kill than save those to whom they minister. but they have. i quote the crusades, the inquisitions, the salem witch trials, the aforementioned extermination of native american peoples, and the persecution, ostracizing, and burning of heretics as documented even as late as the victorian era. do they all? no. but actions speak louder than words for many of them.

Well, I can see your confusion, Saul, and I do understand it.  Not being born again, you can obviously not see the difference in religion and genuine Christianity.  I know that probably sounds like a slam, but it’s the plain truth. The people in Judea who saw and heard Jesus were often confused in the very same way.  They could not understand why He so often seemed to be opposed to the religious leaders — the Pharisees, Sadducees, the religious Scribes and so on — and yet He was not against the God of Israel, or against the Law of Moses, or against the temple, or any of the true prophets of God. If Jesus believed in the same God as the religious leaders said they did, then why did He not count them as brothers in faith?  After all, they were in positions of religious and political authority, they were teachers of the same Law, and they had been around a long, long time. The difference is summed up in John 3:1-12, where Jesus Himself addressed the topic while speaking to Nicodemus — a member of one of the very groups Jesus often exposed as false.  Jesus said that it was really very simple: You must be born again.  You must have the life of God’s own Holy Spirit within you, opening your eyes to spiritual truth and reality. From the outside (where you are right now, Saul), any religious organization or group claiming (and no doubt believing themselves) to be Christian would obviously appear pretty much the same to you as the real thing.  I mean, if all these people claim to believe in God and Jesus, then how can anyone separate them into different groups? But the kingdom of God is within (as Al often likes to quote) and is not contained by church buildings or creeds or associations.  No man can buy it, sell it, loan it out or keep it to himself.  We cannot even pass it on to our children by virtue of physical birth or family name. God is spirit and those who worship Him must do so in spirit and truth.  Yet millions who profess to know God (simply because they are religious) are still stuck at the mountain shrines, or in some kind of temple (see John 4:19-24), following rituals — and blindly following religious leaders who would likely crucify Jesus Himself (again) if He showed up to speak and live among them. Religion — including all those that profess to be Christian — is never the same things as a real relationship with God (1 John 1:5-10).  God is a living Being, and whoever knows Him knows HIM — and not just a set of creeds and ideas and practices and rules and habits.  I cannot say I know you simply by reading what someone else says about you.  I must meet you and walk with you and spend time with you to know you.  It’s the same with God. True Christian believers do not murder those to whom they minister. Religions, on the other hand, are very likely to try and obliterate anything and anyone who might disagree or (seem to) threaten their authority.  Beware all religions.  Be open always to God through faith in Jesus Christ. To fully know the difference between the two, however, you must be born again and receive the Spirit of Christ (see more about this in Romans 8:5-16).  Until you do that, you’ll always be trying to see in from the outside and never sure of what you see. Jim

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – any suggestion that god blesses the efforts of those who gave smallpox- infected blankets to native american children (look it up… they did just that) is reprehensible. oh, wait, but that’s how america was formed. IMHO, we’ve still got a long way to go, and the evangelical christians are only backpeddling. a pray-in to protest the appointing of a government official who, mind you, is a moderate and not a conservative? WTF?!?!? Saul Saul, it sounds like you’re venting your political frustrations on Christ and His people again.  By now you must know that such talk only makes you sound foolish — not to mention ignorant of both American and church history. While it may very well be true that the USA government is guilty of real crimes against people that it sees as a threat to its own wishes and desires, it’s not true that Christian missionaries would rather kill than save those to whom they minister. but they have. i quote the crusades, the inquisitions, the salem witch trials, the aforementioned extermination of native american peoples, and the persecution, ostracizing, and burning of heretics as documented even as late as the victorian era. do they all? no. but actions speak louder than words for many of them. Men and women of Christ do not leave the love and relative security of family, home, and community to venture into a wilderness frontier just to murder other human beings.  The call to mission work is a call from God to reach others with the gospel of Jesus Christ.  One can hardly save that which has been murdered. ahem. yes they do, and yes they did. what was it called? "manifest destiny" http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/dialogues/prelude/manifest/d2hen… more specifically, manifest destiny meant that "all your base are belong to us" to cop a phrase from pop geekdom. http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/dialogues/prelude/manifest/d2den… If the US government used frontier mercantile and mission outlets in order to carry out criminal policy, the outlets themselves cannot be blamed for what happened without their knowledge.  And you certainly cannot believe that merchants and missionaries would’ve been so zealous to murder as to deliberately endanger themselves and their own children by knowingly storing and handling diseased cargo? but the whole point was that OUR ancestors were resistant to smallpox, while the native americans WEREN’T. here’s another page. http://www.twofrog.com/rezsch.html Such nonsense babblings may sound very "intelligent and informed" to the kids in freshman classrooms in so-called colleges that allow drug-induced "exposes" of history to be spouted by professors (who struggle every week to rightly divide their time and efforts between blowing weed and duping the current generation of college kids).  But it makes no sense, and therefore carries no weight, in the real world. you try to sound reasonable. you have failed. you can’t deny history. But you are no better than those ultra-conservative politico-religious groups when you resort to spouting off ultra-liberal nonsense.  Must there always be some war between the outer extremes in a land mostly populated by real people? Why not simply speak the truth?  If you oppose a political stance taken by someone, just say so.  Don’t allow your anger and frustration drive you into promoting lies about "all" true Christians. notice that i didn’t say anything about "all" christians. i specifically spoke to the evangelical branch, the "born-again" hyper-political all-about- the-money christians. don’t put words in my mouth. You will gain more credibility with the truth than you could every hope to gain through empty hype. don’t i know it. =) Isn’t there already enough meaningless hype around here? Next, you’ll be calling yourself an apostle or prophet, and saying that your words are to be believed over the words of Holy Scripture.  And then you’ll be in danger of trying to sell us used cars or "life-like" hair pieces.  Or maybe you’ll even decide to become a drugged-up prof in some rat-infested institution that tries to pass itself off as a school.  Or who knows what? It can get really messy, Saul.  Think about it. to this christian, education is bad unless it comes with a "Jesus" stamp on it. sigh… Saul

Nice job. Next time try reasoning with a cabbage. It will be more fruitful. Jim doesn’t listen to anything but his own thoughts. God is always trying to reach him, but gets a busy signal every time. He’s decided that "The Answer" is to accept Jesus Christ as one’s "Lord and Savior" and that’s that. Nothing more to learn. Of course, he ignores almost everything that Jesus taught, which is rather bizarre, but that doesn’t slow our Jim down for a moment. I mean, if I was someone’s Lord, I would expect them, at the very least, to hang on to my every utterance as if nothing else in the world existed. And to follow my instructions. If they didn’t, they would find themselves doing manual labor for 12 hours a day, on bread and water, for no pay, until they came to their senses. You can’t be someone’s Lord if they won’t listen to you, can you? AC

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – any suggestion that god blesses the efforts of those who gave smallpox- infected blankets to native american children (look it up… they did just that) is reprehensible. oh, wait, but that’s how america was formed. IMHO, we’ve still got a long way to go, and the evangelical christians are only backpeddling. a pray-in to protest the appointing of a government official who, mind you, is a moderate and not a conservative? WTF?!?!? Saul Saul, it sounds like you’re venting your political frustrations on Christ and His people again.  By now you must know that such talk only makes you sound foolish — not to mention ignorant of both American and church history. While it may very well be true that the USA government is guilty of real crimes against people that it sees as a threat to its own wishes and desires, it’s not true that Christian missionaries would rather kill than save those to whom they minister.

but they have. i quote the crusades, the inquisitions, the salem witch trials, the aforementioned extermination of native american peoples, and the persecution, ostracizing, and burning of heretics as documented even as late as the victorian era. do they all? no. but actions speak louder than words for many of them. Men and women of Christ do not leave the love and relative security of family, home, and community to venture into a wilderness frontier just to murder other human beings.  The call to mission work is a call from God to reach others with the gospel of Jesus Christ.  One can hardly save that which has been murdered.

ahem. yes they do, and yes they did. what was it called? "manifest destiny" http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/dialogues/prelude/manifest/d2hen… more specifically, manifest destiny meant that "all your base are belong to us" to cop a phrase from pop geekdom. http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/dialogues/prelude/manifest/d2den… If the US government used frontier mercantile and mission outlets in order to carry out criminal policy, the outlets themselves cannot be blamed for what happened without their knowledge.  And you certainly cannot believe that merchants and missionaries would’ve been so zealous to murder as to deliberately endanger themselves and their own children by knowingly storing and handling diseased cargo?

but the whole point was that OUR ancestors were resistant to smallpox, while the native americans WEREN’T. here’s another page. http://www.twofrog.com/rezsch.html Such nonsense babblings may sound very "intelligent and informed" to the kids in freshman classrooms in so-called colleges that allow drug-induced "exposes" of history to be spouted by professors (who struggle every week to rightly divide their time and efforts between blowing weed and duping the current generation of college kids).  But it makes no sense, and therefore carries no weight, in the real world.

you try to sound reasonable. you have failed. you can’t deny history. But you are no better than those ultra-conservative politico-religious groups when you resort to spouting off ultra-liberal nonsense.  Must there always be some war between the outer extremes in a land mostly populated by real people?  Why not simply speak the truth?  If you oppose a political stance taken by someone, just say so.  Don’t allow your anger and frustration drive you into promoting lies about "all" true Christians.

notice that i didn’t say anything about "all" christians. i specifically spoke to the evangelical branch, the "born-again" hyper-political all-about- the-money christians. don’t put words in my mouth. You will gain more credibility with the truth than you could every hope to gain through empty hype.

don’t i know it. =) Isn’t there already enough meaningless hype around here?  Next, you’ll be calling yourself an apostle or prophet, and saying that your words are to be believed over the words of Holy Scripture.  And then you’ll be in danger of trying to sell us used cars or "life-like" hair pieces.  Or maybe you’ll even decide to become a drugged-up prof in some rat-infested institution that tries to pass itself off as a school.  Or who knows what? It can get really messy, Saul.  Think about it.

to this christian, education is bad unless it comes with a "Jesus" stamp on it. sigh… Saul

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s see. The "Good Christians" of America wiped out 5,000,000 to 15,000,000 of the people who were living there when they arrived. During the process of stealing the continent they were living on. There were only about 250,000 remaining by 1900, having only nominal control over land that no "Good Christian" wanted. then he said— The vast majority of the people that participated in the above crimes, at any level, identified themselves as Christians. They had Bibles in their homes and businesses and they went to Church if there was one around. If not, travelling preachers served them. The people of America _elect_ their leaders, Jim. And they pay the taxes that finance the Army. They send their sons to join the Army. <and so on Al, you still don’t get it, do you?  Did you grow up in a vacuum?

What does *that* mean? You’re angry with God and with everything true about Jesus Christ.  You reject the Bible as the Word of God.

Jim? No one who has read a random sampling of my posts to you would come to that conclusion. You are either willfully bearing false witness against me, or you are insane. I reject the perversion of the teachings of Jesus that *you*, and others like you, espouse. I am criticizing *you*, not God. (You, in your dementia, believe that rejecting *you* is the same thing as rejecting God.) Here’s what Jesus had to say about people like you: From Mathew: 7:15 Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheeps clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves. 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruit.  Grapes are not gathered from thorns or figs from thistles, are they 7:17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 7:18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree to bear good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 7:20 So then, you will recognize them by their fruit. You are a disgusting and sad human being, Jim. But never-the-less, God does love you. <snip AC

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s see. The "Good Christians" of America wiped out 5,000,000 to 15,000,000 of the people who were living there when they arrived. During the process of stealing the continent they were living on. There were only about 250,000 remaining by 1900, having only nominal control over land that no "Good Christian" wanted. Al, you keep confusing US and other national government actions with Christian faith and practice.  Are you that ignorant of history?  If you have a gripe against US, British, French or other national policies, that’s fine, and probably justified. But it does not automatically give you a valid complaint against Christian faith. Church history and US history are not the same thing.  The United States is not an extension of the church.

The vast majority of the people that participated in the above crimes, at any level, identified themselves as Christians. They had Bibles in their homes and businesses and they went to Church if there was one around. If not, travelling preachers served them. The people of America _elect_ their leaders, Jim. And they pay the taxes that finance the Army. They send their sons to join the Army. They grow the food for the Army and the fiber for the cloth they weave for the uniforms; and mine the minerals for their weapons and equipment, ad infinitum. Those where mostly *Christians* doing that, Jim. You are deceiving yourself in a big way. They also unilaterally broke 200 solem treaties with the natives, which were ratified by Congress, signed by the President, and thus, according to the Constitution, were the Law of the Land. <snip AC

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s see. The "Good Christians" of America wiped out 5,000,000 to 15,000,000 of the people who were living there when they arrived. During the process of stealing the continent they were living on. There were only about 250,000 remaining by 1900, having only nominal control over land that no "Good Christian" wanted. then he said— The vast majority of the people that participated in the above crimes, at any level, identified themselves as Christians. They had Bibles in their homes and businesses and they went to Church if there was one around. If not, travelling preachers served them. The people of America _elect_ their leaders, Jim. And they pay the taxes that finance the Army. They send their sons to join the Army.

<and so on Al, you still don’t get it, do you?   Did you grow up in a vacuum? You’re angry with God and with everything true about Jesus Christ.  You reject the Bible as the Word of God.  You embrace false teachings about Jesus that never gained acceptance — not even in ancient times.  You hate Christians, as you’ve shown in many of your posts, calling them names, and going on and on about how evil they are, how lousy the God of the Bible is, and so on. And your continuing rage against true believers and the true faith of Jesus Christ now distorts your mind, so that you cannot tell what is national history and policy, and what is church history. In the past, as in the present day, the vast majority of people know very little of what’s actually being decided about this or that policy.   And not everyone gets in their vote, even today.  But in the past, as late as the 1830’s, not everyone was even allowed to vote.  Most of states specified then that only white, adult men could vote in elections. And some states restricted the right to vote to white men who owned property or who paid taxes. Generally, only a few free northern or southern blacks could vote. Women could not vote anywhere, even if they owned property. And your recurring idea that everyone who ever owned a Bible was therefore a Christian shows gross ignorance of your own English-speaking culture, not to mention the history and culture of your own land.  Read the evidences we have of those days. The United States did have outspoken Christian preachers, teachers and active believers as citizens from the beginning.  But it was not ever a wholly Christian nation.  If the primary leaders were not all Christians, then why would you think that the rest of the population was any different? The original Christian colonists did not establish a nation.  They settled here under the protection (such as it was) of England.  Nor did they seek to obliterate the native peoples who were here first.  They bartered and traded and shared ideas and customs. As an emerging nation, the United States was never established as a Christian nation.  We are not a Christian nation today, even though the majority of the people in this land will still call themselves "Christian" (meaning only that they’re not Islamic or Hindu or whatever else there is). The United States was set up to be a land of freedom and opportunity for all people, regardless of their religious affiliations, or lack thereof (Franklin had no problem with publishing Thomas Paine, even though Paine was hardly a Christian believer). I am a Christian believer.  I believe in the Bible 100%.  And you, Al, do not share my beliefs or convictions.  Yet we are both free citizens in this United States, because the union of this nation does not depend on our faith or lack of faith.  That’s true today, just as in the beginning.  I would have no problem dying to protect your rights as an American, even though you and I do not agree.  I would have no problem dying in battle so that my next-door neighbor can be a Muslim, a Jew, an atheist, a practicing homosexual, or whatever else he decides to become. As a free citizen of the United States, I will speak out against every religion and every idea and every practice that stands in opposition to the Word of God in Scripture.  But also as an American citizen, I will do everything in my power to protect the rights of all our people to live and develop as they will.  Why?  Because the same freedom that allows other Americans to believe whatever they will, and to do whatever they will, also allows me — and all true Christian believers — to remain free. That is the United States that was established in the early days. But at the same time, then as now, there are policies that need to be changed. The fact that a man is president, or a powerful senator, or an daring justice does not automatically make him or her all-wise and always good.  We know that the will of the majority is not always carried out.  We know that those in power do not always follow valid federal laws and proven morals. The men and women who worked and even died to give this nation birth were not so foolish as to think they were going to create a perfect nation. People make mistakes.  People make wrong choices.  People will even choose evil when they have the chance, sometimes. But you will avoid sounding stupid if you will pay better attention to actual history before you go spouting half-baked ideas about what church history is all about.  You are foolish to keep trying to blame everything you don’t like on Christians.  Not everything you see on TV is true.  Not everything marketed is worth buying into.  Not every comic book tells it like it is. Learn to stick with the facts.  Go do your homework.  Spend some time in the public libraries if you don’t have real resources at home.  Get a child to help you if you have problems reading. But whatever you do, if you want to be taken seriously, you’ll pay more attention to real history and stop trying to make up your own on the fly. Not very many people are stupid enough to simply take your word for it.  You may fool some of the people some of the time, but you won’t fool very many of us most of the time. Jim

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – any suggestion that god blesses the efforts of those who gave smallpox- infected blankets to native american children (look it up… they did just that) is reprehensible. oh, wait, but that’s how america was formed. IMHO, we’ve still got a long way to go, and the evangelical christians are only backpeddling. a pray-in to protest the appointing of a government official who, mind you, is a moderate and not a conservative? WTF?!?!? Saul Saul, it sounds like you’re venting your political frustrations on Christ and His people again.  By now you must know that such talk only makes you sound foolish — not to mention ignorant of both American and church history.

Let’s see. The "Good Christians" of America wiped out 5,000,000 to 15,000,000 of the people who were living there when they arrived. During the process of stealing the continent they were living on. There were only about 250,000 remaining by 1900, having only nominal control over land that no "Good Christian" wanted. I think everyone knows just who it is that is ignorant of American and Church history here. Not to mention any names, Jim. This now-old saying comes from the victims of white Christian colonization in Africa, Jim: "When the white man came, he had the Bible, and we had the land. Now, we have the Bible and he has the land." I can assure you that Jesus is not happy with the people who hide behind His name and quite deliberately do things that they know He would not approve of. <snip AC

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Let’s see. The "Good Christians" of America wiped out 5,000,000 to 15,000,000 of the people who were living there when they arrived. During the process of stealing the continent they were living on. There were only about 250,000 remaining by 1900, having only nominal control over land that no "Good Christian" wanted.

Al, you keep confusing US and other national government actions with Christian faith and practice.  Are you that ignorant of history?  If you have a gripe against US, British, French or other national policies, that’s fine, and probably justified.  But it does not automatically give you a valid complaint against Christian faith. Church history and US history are not the same thing.  The United States is not an extension of the church. The men who established our US government and its policy against native tribes were not all Christian believers.  Many were religious in various ways, and some were members of religious organizations. But Franklin was not a Christian.  And Jefferson, who did much to establish our national policy toward native Americans would not have called himself an evangelical or Bible-believing Christian. Go back and reread American and world history, Al.  European governments who allowed and even financed early church missions to various uncharted lands (such as Africa or the American frontier) would often later send soldiers and other government representatives. Government leaders did small things to appease religious leaders.  But to confuse the greed and political goals of national governments with the mission and message of true Christian evangelization is to act in ignorance of the world you live in.   Men and women of God serve God, not greed. Kings, queens, popes, parliaments, and presidents, regardless of their religious titles or affiliations do not represent God or the Christ of Scripture when they openly violate the revealed will of God.  And we can tell who is Christian and who is not throughout history by the decisions and actions of each political leader. You may hate Christians, Al, as is obvious by many of your posts.  But you have no argument when you twist the facts of recorded history. Men and women of God serve God, not greed. To be in the service of greed is idolatry, as the Bible plainly teaches.  Ephesians 5:5-7 says– "Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure person, or one who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.  Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on those who are disobedient.  Therefore do not be associated with them." The Word of God is very clear.  Yet many people are ignorant of its teachings, just as you are.  Turn off the TV and spend some time getting your history straight. You can be sure that every man is judged for his sins, and so also is every nation.  Read the Bible to see what God says about the nation that tries to make itself strong and secure by shedding innocent blood. If you’re truly angry at injustice, then by all means speak out against it.  Take a firm stand against evil.  But do not speak in unashamed ignorance against the Bible and against true Christian believers, blaming us for the sins of those who do not even believe. Get your facts straight, Al.  The history books are open.  The public library in every town can show you what you need to know.  Any school boy or girl can help you with the details. Jim

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    Wise Pilgrims signed the Mayflower Compact to covenant themselves together, and God blessed the faithful and converted some natives to God and God made a better nation because people were thankful and loyal to God.

They shoved their religion down the throat of most of those ‘natives’ with the threat of violence. Those they hadn’t already killed or driven away during the process of stealing their lands. The ‘Good Christians’ of young America stole an entire continent with guns and lies, reducing an original population of somewhere around 10,000,000 to 250,000 by 1889. Time to read some real history, you ignorant bigot.  Let’s all get back to that bonding together with faith in God; we can do it; no law stopping us.  We as wise Christians can, with The Holy Spirit, show God we are His faithful children.  This will mean we can complain to God like Moses and God will supernaturally fight for us against God’s enemies.  Do it now, people.  Pray God to open doors to us to evangelize.

Evangelize? Sure. Here’s a clue for you, though: If someone tells you that they aren’t interested in your religion, then shut up and walk away.  If you don’t, you are harassing someone and they have every right to take concrete steps to make you go away. And by-the-way? Shove your religion. Jesus wouldn’t have anything to do with it, and neither will I. If you try to bring your sick religion to the children I am responsible for, I will put you in the hospital. No warning, no fair fight. I will treat you like the vermin you are. "When the white man came, he had the Bible and we had the Land. Now, we have the Bible and he has the land." A saying among the African victims of white ‘Christian’ colonization. AC

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Chill, Brother no use heating up the group with intemperate remarks. Reason works best.

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Chill, Brother no use heating up the group with intemperate remarks. Reason works best.

What remarks of mine do you regard to be "intemperate"? A clue would help here, don’t you think? As far as I know, everything in that post was perfectly correct. If the truth hurts, it is not the messenger’s fault. Messengers are not required to be temperate, they are just required to deliver the message. I didn’t do the deeds reported by historians. To see the post she is referring to here: AC

Response:

Chill, Brother no use heating up the group with intemperate remarks. Reason works best.

any suggestion that god blesses the efforts of those who gave smallpox- infected blankets to native american children (look it up… they did just that) is reprehensible. oh, wait, but that’s how america was formed. IMHO, we’ve still got a long way to go, and the evangelical christians are only backpeddling. a pray-in to protest the appointing of a government official who, mind you, is a moderate and not a conservative? WTF?!?!? Saul

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any suggestion that god blesses the efforts of those who gave smallpox- infected blankets to native american children (look it up… they did just that) is reprehensible. oh, wait, but that’s how america was formed. IMHO, we’ve still got a long way to go, and the evangelical christians are only backpeddling. a pray-in to protest the appointing of a government official who, mind you, is a moderate and not a conservative? WTF?!?!? Saul

Saul, it sounds like you’re venting your political frustrations on Christ and His people again.  By now you must know that such talk only makes you sound foolish — not to mention ignorant of both American and church history. While it may very well be true that the USA government is guilty of real crimes against people that it sees as a threat to its own wishes and desires, it’s not true that Christian missionaries would rather kill than save those to whom they minister.  Men and women of Christ do not leave the love and relative security of family, home, and community to venture into a wilderness frontier just to murder other human beings.  The call to mission work is a call from God to reach others with the gospel of Jesus Christ.  One can hardly save that which has been murdered. If the US government used frontier mercantile and mission outlets in order to carry out criminal policy, the outlets themselves cannot be blamed for what happened without their knowledge.  And you certainly cannot believe that merchants and missionaries would’ve been so zealous to murder as to deliberately endanger themselves and their own children by knowingly storing and handling diseased cargo? Such nonsense babblings may sound very "intelligent and informed" to the kids in freshman classrooms in so-called colleges that allow drug-induced "exposes" of history to be spouted by professors (who struggle every week to rightly divide their time and efforts between blowing weed and duping the current generation of college kids).  But it makes no sense, and therefore carries no weight, in the real world. Anyone who knows God, through a living faith in Jesus Christ our Lord, knows very well that He’s not the God of European "whitemen" only. Nor is He the God of the Republican party, nor of the various political extremist groups that often resort to the use of religion as a platform for politics. But you are no better than those ultra-conservative politico-religious groups when you resort to spouting off ultra-liberal nonsense.  Must there always be some war between the outer extremes in a land mostly populated by real people?  Why not simply speak the truth?  If you oppose a political stance taken by someone, just say so.  Don’t allow your anger and frustration drive you into promoting lies about "all" true Christians. You will gain more credibility with the truth than you could every hope to gain through empty hype.  Our nation grows weary of the hype it gets every day from TV sitcoms, talk shows, and movies, as well as newspapers, magazines, and etc. and etc. and etc., forever and ever, world without end. Isn’t there already enough meaningless hype around here?  Next, you’ll be calling yourself an apostle or prophet, and saying that your words are to be believed over the words of Holy Scripture.  And then you’ll be in danger of trying to sell us used cars or "life-like" hair pieces.  Or maybe you’ll even decide to become a drugged-up prof in some rat-infested institution that tries to pass itself off as a school.  Or who knows what? It can get really messy, Saul.  Think about it. Jim

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